---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/21/04: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:50 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Benford2@aol.com) 2. 06:19 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Gary Craze) 3. 06:22 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Ed Kramer) 4. 06:26 AM - Re: Reklaw Fly-In (Gary Craze) 5. 06:42 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Ken Hornstein) 6. 07:27 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (cgalley) 7. 07:57 AM - 801 on Jet-A (Gary Craze) 8. 08:10 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 08:10 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 10. 08:13 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 08:42 AM - Re: 801 on Jet-A (Brett) 12. 09:15 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Frank Stutzman) 13. 09:18 AM - Re: 801 on Jet-A (Gary Craze) 14. 10:36 AM - Re: 801 on Jet-A (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 11:39 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (David Barth) 16. 01:47 PM - Re: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) (Dave Kubassek) 17. 03:40 PM - Re: 801 on Jet-A (Dan Knezacek) 18. 04:37 PM - Tail wheel v Trike (Matt & Jo) 19. 05:26 PM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Frank Stutzman) 20. 06:16 PM - Re: Tail wheel v Trike (Mike Fothergill) 21. 06:42 PM - Re: Turbine engines - was 801 on Jet-A (Brandon Tucker) 22. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Turbine engines - was 801 on Jet-A (Chris Boultinghouse) 23. 08:49 PM - Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings (Gary Blomgren) 24. 11:41 PM - Re: Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings (Leo van Schie) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:54 AM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 10/21/2004 12:29:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time, dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net writes: > > Whoa Ben ! there you said it, right to the point ! > Thanks for a very good explanation, could just keep some pilot out of harm's > way. > What is the solution for vapour lock then, if any ? temperature regularly > goes to 100 here on my little strip. > Regards, > Dirk. > Keep all fuel ines and tanks as far away from a heat source as possible. One thing I didn't expand on is a fuel injected engine that uses a return line for un used fuel is a lot less prone to vapour lock then a carb. One good way to check is to use the same fuel in your car/truck as your plane, if it acts up on the way to the airport on the same 100 days rhen the plane will lock too. be safe Ben Haas N801BH do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:18 AM PST US From: "Gary Craze" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Thanks Ben, This is one big reason I've been seriously considering using an IO-360 rather than an O-360. But other than automotive engines, I've never dealt much with fuel injected aircraft engines other than fly behind them. So I'll need to study up on the plumbing. I'm down in Houston, TX, which is about as hot and near sea level as you can get. Many thanks Gary Craze Houston, TX N801GC (reserved) --------------------------------- Keep all fuel ines and tanks as far away from a heat source as possible. One thing I didn't expand on is a fuel injected engine that uses a return line for un used fuel is a lot less prone to vapour lock then a carb. One good way to check is to use the same fuel in your car/truck as your plane, if it acts up on the way to the airport on the same 100 days rhen the plane will lock too. be safe Ben Haas N801BH do not archive == == == == ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:16 AM PST US From: "Ed Kramer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas. The shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the parts. Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker can haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline in the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor pressure (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment and took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test tube. Just my 2-cents! Ed Kramer West Seneca, NY CH 701 edair701@adelphia.net Build Status: Stalled Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing. Working On: Flaperons 50% > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > > I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel > specs > and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines of > all > kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also > started > and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just > before I > moved here to Jackson Hole Wy. > > 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel. 100 > LL > blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green > 100-130 > had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation. If > any > of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was > available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports > operating out of > them > 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the sticker > on > the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane number > and > the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91. Don't > assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your timing to > a > conservative advance setting. > 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is closely > regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant > whereever you buy > it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason being > we > are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my V-8 > all > aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is set > at 33 > degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes to > switch > between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my panel. > Now > keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if I > was > based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of degrees > for > a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at this > elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune your > engine > for your local area. > > 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing his > homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it during the > hot > summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is another one of the > tests > that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on > it.100LL is > the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time > and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level > with > the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money > and buy > 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel > will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a > short > strip. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:13 AM PST US From: "Gary Craze" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Reklaw Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Hi John, I'll be there but since my 801 is still mostly in crates, I'll be up with a buddy in his Kitfox. We camp out along the flight line, red white and blue Kitfox, 926TC. Hope to see other builders there! It's an amazing fly-in. Gary Craze Houston, TX N801GC (reserved) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Williamson Subject: Zenith-List: Fly-In --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Williamson" --> Are any Zenith flyers planning on taking their airplane to the 20th Annual Flying M Ranch Fly-In/Campout this weekend? Also known as the Reklaw, TX Fly-In. Dates are 22-24 October 2004. Info about the airfield can be found at: http://www.airnav.com/airport/7TA7 John Williamson Arlington, TX Kolb Kolbra, Rotax 912ULS, 697 hours http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot Zenith CH701 Project http://home.comcast.net/~stol_airplane http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/stol_airplane do not archive == == == == ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:29 AM PST US From: Ken Hornstein Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas WIn3jU;bql;{2Uq%zw5bF4?%F&&j8@KaT?#vBGk}u07<+6/`.F-3_GA@6Bq5gN9\+s;_d gD\SW #]iN_U0 KUmOR.P<|um5yPkEpSD@*e` --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ken Hornstein >Keep all fuel ines and tanks as far away from a heat source as possible. One >thing I didn't expand on is a fuel injected engine that uses a return line for >un used fuel is a lot less prone to vapour lock then a carb. One good way to >check is to use the same fuel in your car/truck as your plane, if it acts up >on the way to the airport on the same 100 days rhen the plane will lock too. Maybe I've just been lucky in regards to automobiles ... but do modern cars/trucks vapor lock? I can't think of any of the traditional aviation engine "issues" (carb icing, vapor lock, trying to start a warm fuel-injected C172) applying to a modern automobile engine. I turn the key, and it just starts, no matter what the temperature or whether the engine is warm or cold. Sure, I remember plenty of problems 15-20 years ago, but not more recently. In a side note, I thought the issues with the high cost of 100LL were due to the fact that it's a relatively low-volume product (compared to automotive gasoline) and the fact that since it's got lead in it, it needs dedicated fueling infrastructure (because once a truck is used to carry leaded gasoline, it can't be used to carry unleaded gasoline without an expensive cleaning procedure). --Ken ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:03 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" So don't fly over 9,500 Ft! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Kramer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" > > Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas. The > shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh > forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the parts. > Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker can > haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline in > the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor pressure > (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment and > took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they > approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test tube. > > Just my 2-cents! > Ed Kramer > West Seneca, NY > CH 701 > edair701@adelphia.net > Build Status: Stalled > Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing. > Working On: Flaperons 50% > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > >> > > > > I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel > > specs > > and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines of > > all > > kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also > > started > > and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just > > before I > > moved here to Jackson Hole Wy. > > > > 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel. 100 > > LL > > blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green > > 100-130 > > had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation. If > > any > > of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was > > available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports > > operating out of > > them > > 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the sticker > > on > > the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane number > > and > > the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91. Don't > > assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your timing to > > a > > conservative advance setting. > > 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is closely > > regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant > > whereever you buy > > it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason being > > we > > are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my V-8 > > all > > aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is set > > at 33 > > degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes to > > switch > > between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my panel. > > Now > > keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if I > > was > > based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of degrees > > for > > a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at this > > elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune your > > engine > > for your local area. > > > > 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing his > > homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it during the > > hot > > summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is another one of the > > tests > > that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on > > it.100LL is > > the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time > > and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level > > with > > the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money > > and buy > > 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel > > will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a > > short > > strip. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:38 AM PST US From: "Gary Craze" Subject: Zenith-List: 801 on Jet-A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Maybe saving money with mogas is a moot point. Based on this newsclip about Jet-A prices, I've decided to go turbine on the 801... (tongue firmly stuck in cheek....) -------------------------------------------------- Jet Fuel costs have jumped from 88.9 cents per gallon at the beginning of the year to more than $1.56 per gallon now, Parsons said, citing the U.S. Department of Energy. ----------------------------------------------------- That's still way cheaper than I'm paying for non-premium unleaded mogas !! Gary Craze Houston, TX N801GC (reserved) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas. The shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the parts. Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker can haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline in the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor pressure (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment and took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test tube. Just my 2-cents! Ed Kramer West Seneca, NY CH 701 edair701@adelphia.net Build Status: Stalled Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing. Working On: Flaperons 50% > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > > I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel > specs > and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines of > all > kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also > started > and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just > before I > moved here to Jackson Hole Wy. > > 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel. > 100 > LL > blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green > 100-130 > had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation. If > any > of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was > available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports > operating out of > them > 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the sticker > on > the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane number > and > the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91. Don't > assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your timing to > a > conservative advance setting. > 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is closely > regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant > whereever you buy > it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason being > we > are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my V-8 > all > aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is set > at 33 > degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes to > switch > between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my panel. > Now > keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if I > was > based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of degrees > for > a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at this > elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune your > engine > for your local area. > > 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing > his homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it > during the hot summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is > another one of the tests > that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on > it.100LL is > the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time > and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level > with > the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money > and buy > 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel > will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a > short > strip. == == == == ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:19 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" He probably had a winter blend with a lot more ethanol in it.....I have done the same thing and the mo gas did not boil at 12,500ft. Of course one has to be much more careful with mogas and ensure that no part of the system has a pump that sucks on the fuel, especially one that sucks on warm fuel. A low wing tank with an engine driven pump high on the firewall is asking for a visit by the grim reaper! Make sure your 801 has restrictions in the fuel supply from the high wing tanks...In fact I would plumb in a sensitive pressure guage to make sure there is POSITIVE pressure on the suction side of any pumps. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas. The shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the parts. Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker can haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline in the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor pressure (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment and took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test tube. Just my 2-cents! Ed Kramer West Seneca, NY CH 701 edair701@adelphia.net Build Status: Stalled Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing. Working On: Flaperons 50% > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > > I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel > specs > and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines of > all > kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also > started > and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just > before I > moved here to Jackson Hole Wy. > > 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel. > 100 > LL > blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green > 100-130 > had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation. If > any > of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was > available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports > operating out of > them > 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the sticker > on > the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane number > and > the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91. Don't > assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your timing to > a > conservative advance setting. > 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is closely > regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant > whereever you buy > it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason being > we > are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my V-8 > all > aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is set > at 33 > degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes to > switch > between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my panel. > Now > keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if I > was > based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of degrees > for > a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at this > elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune your > engine > for your local area. > > 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing > his homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it > during the hot summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is > another one of the tests > that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on > it.100LL is > the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time > and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level > with > the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money > and buy > 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel > will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a > short > strip. == == == == ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:19 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" He probably had a winter blend with a lot more ethanol in it.....I have done the same thing and the mo gas did not boil at 12,500ft. Of course one has to be much more careful with mogas and ensure that no part of the system has a pump that sucks on the fuel, especially one that sucks on warm fuel. A low wing tank with an engine driven pump high on the firewall is asking for a visit by the grim reaper! Make sure your 801 has restrictions in the fuel supply from the high wing tanks...In fact I would plumb in a sensitive pressure guage to make sure there is POSITIVE pressure on the suction side of any pumps. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas. The shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the parts. Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker can haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline in the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor pressure (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment and took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test tube. Just my 2-cents! Ed Kramer West Seneca, NY CH 701 edair701@adelphia.net Build Status: Stalled Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing. Working On: Flaperons 50% > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > > I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel > specs > and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines of > all > kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also > started > and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just > before I > moved here to Jackson Hole Wy. > > 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel. > 100 > LL > blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green > 100-130 > had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation. If > any > of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was > available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports > operating out of > them > 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the sticker > on > the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane number > and > the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91. Don't > assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your timing to > a > conservative advance setting. > 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is closely > regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant > whereever you buy > it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason being > we > are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my V-8 > all > aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is set > at 33 > degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes to > switch > between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my panel. > Now > keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if I > was > based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of degrees > for > a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at this > elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune your > engine > for your local area. > > 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing > his homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it > during the hot summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is > another one of the tests > that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on > it.100LL is > the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time > and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level > with > the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money > and buy > 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel > will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a > short > strip. == == == == ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Remember on proper A/C engines you don't have a full return like you do on an auto...I'm not convinced how you get any trapped air/vapour out of the system...I'm still learning this myself but I think the Airflow performance system has a purge valve that vents vapour. On a carb if you get vapour/air it simply vents straight through the float bowl. I think you have to be More careful with A/C Fi vs a carb. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Craze Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Thanks Ben, This is one big reason I've been seriously considering using an IO-360 rather than an O-360. But other than automotive engines, I've never dealt much with fuel injected aircraft engines other than fly behind them. So I'll need to study up on the plumbing. I'm down in Houston, TX, which is about as hot and near sea level as you can get. Many thanks Gary Craze Houston, TX N801GC (reserved) --------------------------------- Keep all fuel ines and tanks as far away from a heat source as possible. One thing I didn't expand on is a fuel injected engine that uses a return line for un used fuel is a lot less prone to vapour lock then a carb. One good way to check is to use the same fuel in your car/truck as your plane, if it acts up on the way to the airport on the same 100 days rhen the plane will lock too. be safe Ben Haas N801BH do not archive == == == == == == == == ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:45 AM PST US From: "Brett " Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on Jet-A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " Yep that's cheaper. But your going to use 10 times as much. :) Honstly I don't know exactly how much some of the new turbins burn. But I bet it's alot. Thanks Brett Ray www.hog-air.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:55 AM PST US From: Frank Stutzman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman Forgive me if I have screwed the attributions up. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" > (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment and > took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they > approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test > tube. FWIW, I frequently fly my Bonanza at density altitudes over 16,000 feet. If the mogas I use was boiling, there is nothing that indicates to me that it is occuring (engine rans fine, my engine monitor showes nothing amiss). I also have often driven a car at altitudes over 9000 feet. There lots of cars in cites at high altitudes (La Paz, Bolivia and Lima, Peru come to mind). Maybe there is a special mogas formulation for such locations, but I doubt it. My point is that while I don't doubt that mogas has a lower vaporization point than avgas, the likelyhood of it being a problem is a fuction of the fuel system, not the fuel. Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Soon to be 701 builder Hood River, OR ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:06 AM PST US From: "Gary Craze" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on Jet-A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Innodyn, www.innodyn.com (formerly Affordable Turbine Power), is finally getting ready to release their line of turbines for experimental aircraft, ranging from 165hp to 255hp. Prices range from $27K - $35K. They haven't released their fuel burn numbers yet, but are claiming that "On development Turbines our fuel flow rates have been quite comparable to internal combustion engines, in all phases of operation." They'll burn diesel, kerosene, or Jet-A. Who knows.... When I'm ready to drop the $20K-$30K I've budgeted for an engine in the next 18-24 months, my tongue-in-cheek comment about a turbine in the 801 might not be so far fetched... I can hear it spooling up now....whoops, had my hand on the air grinder .. Rgds, Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brett Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on Jet-A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " Yep that's cheaper. But your going to use 10 times as much. :) Honstly I don't know exactly how much some of the new turbins burn. But I bet it's alot. Thanks Brett Ray www.hog-air.com do not archive == == == == ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on Jet-A From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yes they are making lots of claims...:) If they are true...(I highly doubt it) and the cost of the FWF kits come way down and IF someone would actually start offering insurance on one...I'll sign up...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Craze Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on Jet-A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Innodyn, www.innodyn.com (formerly Affordable Turbine Power), is finally getting ready to release their line of turbines for experimental aircraft, ranging from 165hp to 255hp. Prices range from $27K - $35K. They haven't released their fuel burn numbers yet, but are claiming that "On development Turbines our fuel flow rates have been quite comparable to internal combustion engines, in all phases of operation." ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:10 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Hey Ben. Perhaps you can clarify something for me. I was at a rotax engine and fuel system seminar this summer and heard something about a - well sort of like a half-life of octane. Whether it evaporates or disappears by some other means I don't recall. Since the rotax engines were very sensitive to octane levels, we were told always to use "fresh" gas since the octane would be decreasing with time. Buying 1000 gallons at a time would lead to having "not very fresh" gas by the time you reach the end of the tank. Can you shed some light on this for me and the rest of the group? Thanks Ben David Benford2@aol.com wrote: I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level with the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money and buy 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a short strip. Ben Haas N801BH do not archive David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:25 PM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" I've had a whole lot more tailwheel shimmy than on the XL. I've not experienced any nose wheel shimmy with the XL Dave kubassek .....C-FDSF.......XL 0235 Lyc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett " Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " > > I have never had mine shimmy. I have had a 152 do it to me sometimes > though. > > > > Zenith Gurus: > > > > Is anyone aware of nosewheel shimmy problems on the XL? > > I'm still trying to decide if I should go with the tail dragger. > > > > Thank you. > > Forest K. > > N601FK (Reserved) > > Starter Kit Started > >do not arcive > > > Thanks > Brett Ray > www.hog-air.com > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:42 PM PST US From: "Dan Knezacek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on Jet-A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Knezacek" Last December in Scientific American's special on aviation they did an article on the first model to fly across the Atlantic. Some guy from New York city developed a very efficient way of running his model aircraft motor on kerosene. He leaned it out so much that he had to install spark plugs and he had to add some sort of synthetic lubricant to the fuel. Why can't we develop some system like that for our planes? It's true that the engine was originally diesel but the way he ran it it had to have an ignition system. Dan ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:22 PM PST US From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Zenith-List: Tail wheel v Trike --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" Does any one know of the speed difference in between a Trike and a Tailwheel for the 601 XL. I am in the early early stages. I am still researching Any comment welcome Cheers Matt Archer ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:28 PM PST US From: Frank Stutzman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas --> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Ed Kramer wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" > (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment and > took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they > approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test tube. [sorry if this comes out twice, I didn't see it the first time] I've somewhat routinely had my mogas sucking bonanza up to density altitudes of 15,000 without problems. The plane ran fine and the engine monitor never said anything was amiss. There are a lot of cars and busses in LaPaz Boliva (elevation 12,000 or so). Maybe they have a special mogas formulation, but I rather doubt it. I agree that mogas has a lower vapor pressure than avgas. My point is the likelyhood of a vapor lock is more a function of the fuel system than it is the fuel. What your friend saw with the test tubes probably saw had more to do with the temperature of the test tubes than it had to do with the lower ambient pressure. Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:53 PM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tail wheel v Trike --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill Hi; There is a small speed advantage of about 2 mph, but it is very difficult to get an exact number because no two airplanes have exactly the same drag. I do know that my 601 has always been a bit faster than two other trike versions. Re the trike vs tailwheel decision: There are other considerations as well as speed. (Besides the tail wheel looking better IMHO) The tail wheel version gets off the ground a little quicker due, I believe to less wheel drag and can assume a positive angle of attack sooner. The trike can land shorter because it can get the nose higher on flare without a tailwheel limiting the angle. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Mike CH-601HDS tailwheel UHS Spinners Matt & Jo wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" > > Does any one know of the speed difference in between a Trike and a Tailwheel for the 601 XL. I am in the early early stages. I am still researching > > Any comment welcome > > Cheers > > Matt Archer > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:34 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Turbine engines - was 801 on Jet-A --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Gents, Check out this turbine engine. It was introduced in this months sport aviation magazine in their "seen at air venture" section. http://microjeteng.com/prop.html It is up to 130 hp. I have e-mailed their webmaster for more information, but have recieved nothing in return. This is an engine that has actually been run, but as usual, no specific data is offered on their very poorly designed website. They have a whole line of turbo jet, prop, shaft, and fan engines originally engineered for the high end model airplane industry. I would love to get a hold of one of these babies! If anyone is able to get more info, please let me know. R/ Brandon Tucker 601 HDS unpacked the fuselage kit today! __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:50 PM PST US From: "Chris Boultinghouse" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Turbine engines - was 801 on Jet-A --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Boultinghouse" Here are some specs for that engine, as found posted on another list I browse: Microjet Turboprop Engine Model Number: HFTP 65 Horse Power: 65 Pressure Ratio: 3.75:1 Fuel Consumption: 10.75 US gallons per hour at 65 hp Fuel Type: Paraffin or diesel and 2 stroke oil 2% Dimensions: 6" diameter by 30" length Weight: 25lbs Price: $21,349 plus shipping Yikes! $21k for a 65hp engine? I'll pass. Regards, Chris Boultinghouse Austin, TX Sonex N260SX (reserved) http://sonex260.wheelsup.org DO NOT ARCHIVE > -----Original Message----- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker > > Gents, > > Check out this turbine engine.It was introduced > in this months sport aviation magazine in their "seen > at air venture" section. > > http://microjeteng.com/prop.html ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:18 PM PST US From: "Gary Blomgren" Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Blomgren" I am new to Zenith and am signed up for the Factory School November 18/19, 2004. My particular interest is in the possible building of a 701. I would like to store the plane on an enclosed equipment trailer on our ranch during the winter to save on hanger rent at our local airport. A little was said at the Zenith display at Oshkosh that the 701 wings can be easily adapted to be pulled out a little, turned and folded back to the tail for trailering. However, I have not heard of anyone actually doing this. Does anyone know for a fact this is being done? Is it to complicated to bother with? Does it present a rigging nightmare? Thanks in advance for any input. Gary Blomgren (retired Mooney pilot) ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:41 PM PST US From: "Leo van Schie" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo van Schie" Hi, I have the folding wings option installed on my 701. I must say it does not make an awful lot of difference in easiness of removing and storing the wings. You still need 2 persons to remove and reconnect the wings and (if installed) the tubes to the wing tanks. The modification is not to hard to do. Leo van Schie CH701 PH-3U1 -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Gary Blomgren Verzonden: vrijdag 22 oktober 2004 5:48 Aan: zenith-list@matronics.com Onderwerp: Zenith-List: Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Blomgren" I am new to Zenith and am signed up for the Factory School November 18/19, 2004. My particular interest is in the possible building of a 701. I would like to store the plane on an enclosed equipment trailer on our ranch during the winter to save on hanger rent at our local airport. A little was said at the Zenith display at Oshkosh that the 701 wings can be easily adapted to be pulled out a little, turned and folded back to the tail for trailering. However, I have not heard of anyone actually doing this. Does anyone know for a fact this is being done? Is it to complicated to bother with? Does it present a rigging nightmare? Thanks in advance for any input. Gary Blomgren (retired Mooney pilot) == == == ==