---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/23/04: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:54 AM - Rotax 912 install question (Trevor Page) 2. 06:56 AM - Re: Blind Rivets - Answer (Scott Laughlin) 3. 07:35 AM - Re: Blind Rivets - Question (Larry) 4. 08:13 AM - Re: Rotax 912 install question (Trevor Page) 5. 08:14 AM - Blind Rivets (Phil Raker) 6. 08:35 AM - Re: First Flights (EMAproducts@aol.com) 7. 01:48 PM - Corrosion-X (Richard T. Perry) 8. 03:36 PM - Re: Corrosion-X (Steve Dixon) 9. 04:45 PM - Corvair (Al Young) 10. 06:35 PM - nosewheel shimmy (Roy Engelke) 11. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion-X (Brandon Tucker) 12. 07:39 PM - Looking to buy a CH 601 HD or XL (Jeffrey Glasserow) 13. 08:59 PM - Re: nosewheel shimmy (Ray Montagne) 14. 10:38 PM - Nose wheel shimmy (howado) 15. 11:45 PM - CH601XL nose wheel fork + jabiru 3300 starter on N633Z (xl) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:27 AM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 install question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page Listers, I've started to plumb in my fuel lines for the 912 in my 601 and I have a question about the carb fuel manifold. The manifold splitter for the fuel going to each carb has an extra outlet on it that's supposed to be a fuel return line to the tank. Is it really required to run this back into my header tank or can I cap it off? I'm assuming its an over pressure return line for the fuel pump right? Also, the carbs on mine were originally connected together with some rubber hose that ran from the back side of the cabs just over the float bowl covers and this rubber line has a "tee" it in as well. I'm not sure what to do about this line. Its not the overflow line from the side of the carb near the air filters. Thanks Trevor Page 97% complete.. inching closer :) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:07 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Blind Rivets - Answer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Dave: The following link may help you with understanding the rivets used on Zenith aircaft. http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-86-12.html Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Dave VanLanen" Are the Avex rivets used on the Zenair aircraft considered friction-lock or mechanical-lock? Dave Van Lanen http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:10 AM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Blind Rivets - Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" They are fiction lock, not aircraft certified. Larry N1345L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Zenith-List: Blind Rivets - Question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > > I just read the article in the October Sport Aviation entitled "Leading the > Blind", which addresses blind rivets. Basically, it states that blind rivet > systems developed for the aviation industry are of 2 types, friction-lock > and mechanical-lock, and that friction-lock blind rivets tend to be > sensitive to vibrations, which can cause the stem to fall out, greatly > reducing their strength. The article then goes on to recommend the > mechanical-lock CherryMax rivets, although it states that these rivets are > expensive ($.25 to .$75 apiece). > > > Are the Avex rivets used on the Zenair aircraft considered friction-lock or > mechanical-lock? If they are friction-lock, has anyone had problems with > loose rivets on higher-time aircraft? > > > Thanks in advance for any information you can provide. > > > Dave Van Lanen > > Madison, WI > > (still looking) > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:05 AM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 install question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page I should mention that I've installed Aeroquip fire sleeve on ALL the fuel lines if that makes any difference. Trevor On Oct 23, 2004, at 8:53 AM, Trevor Page wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page > > Listers, > > I've started to plumb in my fuel lines for the 912 in my 601 and I have > a question about the carb fuel manifold. > The manifold splitter for the fuel going to each carb has an extra > outlet on it that's supposed to be a fuel return line to the tank. Is > it really required to run this back into my header tank or can I cap it > off? I'm assuming its an over pressure return line for the fuel pump > right? > > Also, the carbs on mine were originally connected together with some > rubber hose that ran from the back side of the cabs just over the float > bowl covers and this rubber line has a "tee" it in as well. I'm not > sure what to do about this line. Its not the overflow line from the > side of the carb near the air filters. > > Thanks > > Trevor Page > 97% complete.. inching closer :) > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:49 AM PST US From: Phil Raker Subject: Zenith-List: Blind Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: Phil Raker Dave, Avex blind rivets are a design which is sort of half way between the two. They don't have a positive mechanical locking stem like the Cherry rivets (from another Textron division), but the formed head does captivate the end of the stem holding it in place pretty strongly. The Avex design is quite different from the typical hardware store variety of "pop" rivets. It's rare that the stems fall out of Avex rivets. Regardless, even though it's true that all blind rivets are stronger in shear with the stem in place, whether the stems fall out or not doesn't matter in a Zenith design! Chris Heintz has measured the strength of the rivets with the stems intentionally knocked out - sort of a minimum strength. He does all his design calculations based on THAT strength (without the stem). I believe much of this is covered in greater detail in the "Design & Construction College" section on "Riveted Joints" found at Zenithair.com. If any of your rivet stems stay in place (most of them will stay in forever if you don't knock them out) your aircraft will be stronger than what Chris' calculations show that it should be. Chris inspected his original CH600 a few years ago, and he found something like 20 stems had come out but ZERO loose rivets. That's with several thousand hours on the airframe. That's more than good enough for me. Phil Raker N556P HDS/Stratus ~85% completed --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > > I just read the article in the October Sport Aviation entitled "Leading the > Blind", which addresses blind rivets. Basically, it states that blind rivet > systems developed for the aviation industry are of 2 types, friction-lock > and mechanical-lock, and that friction-lock blind rivets tend to be > sensitive to vibrations, which can cause the stem to fall out, greatly > reducing their strength. The article then goes on to recommend the > mechanical-lock CherryMax rivets, although it states that these rivets are > expensive ($.25 to .$75 apiece). > > > Are the Avex rivets used on the Zenair aircraft considered friction-lock or > mechanical-lock? If they are friction-lock, has anyone had problems with > loose rivets on higher-time aircraft? > Thanks in advance for any information you can provide. _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:48 AM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First Flights --> Zenith-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com To all out there getting ready for the first flight 1. Insure airplane is ready 2. Insure you are proficient, not just current 3. Follow a test plan 4. Have a wonderful time on this momentous date Elbie EM aviation ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:25 PM PST US From: "Richard T. Perry" Subject: Zenith-List: Corrosion-X --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard T. Perry" Dylan - I currently live and work on Kwajalein Atoll as an aircraft mechanic for the US Army. (we're at 9 N 168 E, in case you were wondering). In a series of tests that the Navy did during the 50's and 60's, they dubbed this place the "most corrosive place on Earth". To give you an idea, we all get around on bikes here. Generally, a standard powder-coated Huffy "cruiser" will need a chain replaced every 3 months, the "chrome" bits will last about a year, and the frame will last about 24 months. We use Corrosion-X virtually daily here to maintain our fixed wing (over the 5 years I've been here, at varying times the DHC-6 Twin Otter, DHC-7, Beech 1900D and now the SA-227 Metro III) and rotary-wing aircraft (UH-1). We buy it by the 55 gallon drum and spray it on with a compressed air pump (although I've found that a Hudson sprayer works great, too.) In my humble opinion, Corrosion-X is a great product, but it's NOT a primer substitute. If you want serious corrosion protection, you'll still need a primer coat, then you can spray Corrosion-X over the dried paint. Corrosion-X doesn't adhere to the base metal like a paint does. It's closer to LPS-3 (which I think it does a better job than) if you're familiar with that - when applied to any surface, it forms a sticky, gummy coating layer about 2.5 to 10 mils thick (depends on the application) that can be removed by hand wiping and a little elbow grease (and maybe some alcohol if it gets too hard.) Where it shines is in the protection of any bare metal parts on the aircraft. We use it on the interior of all fuselage and wing bays as an additional corrosion barrier, but also on stuff like rod-ends, grounding jumpers, bolt heads... anything exposed. Only thing to watch out for is that Corrosion-X is sticky....so in an environment prone to small particulates (sand and coral here, dirt back in the world) you need to watch for "fuzzy" parts - evidence that the Corrosion-X on a part has trapped organic "stuff" - this can lead to less-than-optimal life for bearings and associated moving surfaces. This is mostly a concern on the bottom bits - landing gear etc. We usually wind up wiping off and reapplying the product to the exterior metal parts every phase inspection (125 hours) here, and usually "fog" the interior of any area we open for a given phase. So...it's worth using, but it's definitely not a replacement for a good solid primer coat. I've been meaning to try to get a hold of the VCI product that's been mentioned for a trial out here. As you might imagine, corrosion is something of an institutional obsession out here, and anything that I can find to help fight the inevitable spread is a good thing. Good luck! Regards, Richard T. Perry perryrt@hotmail.com "Fraser, there's a guy on my corner who asks me every morning if I've seen God; do you really think he expects me to point Him out?" "Well, you know, Ray, if you did, perhaps he'd stop asking." Ray Vecchio and Benton Fraser, "Hawk and a Handsaw", Due_South ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:52 PM PST US From: "Steve Dixon" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corrosion-X --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Dixon" Hi, FWIW, I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. I thought about responding in a similar manner, but Richard has done an excellent job here IMHO, and from first hand experience. I have been using Corrosion-X for just about everything since I first saw it at Oshkosh several years ago. I think it is the best product of it's kind on the market, but I wouldn't substitute it for paint. I plan to do exactly as Richard suggests. Steve Dixon 701 parts in storage :-) DO NOT ARCHIVE ---- Original Message ----- From: "Richard T. Perry" Subject: Zenith-List: Corrosion-X > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard T. Perry" > > Dylan - > > I currently live and work on Kwajalein Atoll as an aircraft mechanic for the > US Army. (we're at 9 N 168 E, in case you were wondering). In a series of > tests that the Navy did during the 50's and 60's, they dubbed this place the > "most corrosive place on Earth". To give you an idea, we all get around on > bikes here. Generally, a standard powder-coated Huffy "cruiser" will need a > chain replaced every 3 months, the "chrome" bits will last about a year, and > the frame will last about 24 months. > > We use Corrosion-X virtually daily here to maintain our fixed wing (over the > 5 years I've been here, at varying times the DHC-6 Twin Otter, DHC-7, Beech > 1900D and now the SA-227 Metro III) and rotary-wing aircraft (UH-1). We buy > it by the 55 gallon drum and spray it on with a compressed air pump > (although I've found that a Hudson sprayer works great, too.) > > In my humble opinion, Corrosion-X is a great product, but it's NOT a primer > substitute. If you want serious corrosion protection, you'll still need a > primer coat, then you can spray Corrosion-X over the dried paint. > Corrosion-X doesn't adhere to the base metal like a paint does. It's closer > to LPS-3 (which I think it does a better job than) if you're familiar with > that - when applied to any surface, it forms a sticky, gummy coating layer > about 2.5 to 10 mils thick (depends on the application) that can be removed > by hand wiping and a little elbow grease (and maybe some alcohol if it gets > too hard.) > > Where it shines is in the protection of any bare metal parts on the > aircraft. We use it on the interior of all fuselage and wing bays as an > additional corrosion barrier, but also on stuff like rod-ends, grounding > jumpers, bolt heads... anything exposed. > > Only thing to watch out for is that Corrosion-X is sticky....so in an > environment prone to small particulates (sand and coral here, dirt back in > the world) you need to watch for "fuzzy" parts - evidence that the > Corrosion-X on a part has trapped organic "stuff" - this can lead to > less-than-optimal life for bearings and associated moving surfaces. This is > mostly a concern on the bottom bits - landing gear etc. We usually wind up > wiping off and reapplying the product to the exterior metal parts every > phase inspection (125 hours) here, and usually "fog" the interior of any > area we open for a given phase. > > So...it's worth using, but it's definitely not a replacement for a good > solid primer coat. I've been meaning to try to get a hold of the VCI product > that's been mentioned for a trial out here. As you might imagine, corrosion > is something of an institutional obsession out here, and anything that I can > find to help fight the inevitable spread is a good thing. > > Good luck! > > Regards, > > Richard T. Perry perryrt@hotmail.com > "Fraser, there's a guy on my corner who asks me every > morning if I've seen God; do you really think he > expects me to point Him out?" > "Well, you know, Ray, if you did, perhaps he'd stop > asking." > > Ray Vecchio and Benton Fraser, "Hawk and a Handsaw", Due_South > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:53 PM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" I've got a 64 corvair engine I don't need if anyone is interested. Contact me off list. Al Young Armyret@one-eleven.net Do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:43 PM PST US From: "Roy Engelke" Subject: Zenith-List: nosewheel shimmy --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roy Engelke" I have had shimmy on the nose wheeel as well as the mains. This hasn't happened so much on the taleoff or landing roll, but on the spin-down ofter takeoff. The "trailer" tires provided with the early kits (this may have changed with the XL kits) were terribly out of balance. It took 11/2 ounces of weights to balance my nose wheel.----- Original Message ----- From: "Zenith-List Digest Server" To: "Zenith-List Digest List" Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:58 PM Subject: Zenith-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 10/20/04 > * > > ================================================== > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================== > > Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2004-10-20.html > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2004-10-20.txt > > > ================================================ > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================ > > > Zenith-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Wed 10/20/04: 16 > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 06:14 AM - SLA regs (mike honer) > 2. 06:36 AM - Re: 601HDS forms, jigs and molds (Larry McFarland) > 3. 07:52 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) > 4. 08:15 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Gary Craze) > 5. 08:53 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) > 6. 09:21 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Gary Craze) > 7. 09:40 AM - XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) (The Keeners) > 8. 09:57 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) > 9. 12:30 PM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) > 10. 12:44 PM - Re: Re:Exhaust fumes in cabin (Frank Jones) > 11. 03:52 PM - Re: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) (Brett) > 12. 05:22 PM - Re: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) (Ray Montagne) > 13. 08:19 PM - 701 Wing Installation (Jimmy Parker) > 14. 09:20 PM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Benford2@aol.com) > 15. 11:05 PM - Sebring FL (Brett) > 16. 11:29 PM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Dirk Slabbert) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 06:14:15 AM PST US > From: "mike honer" > Subject: Zenith-List: SLA regs > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "mike honer" > > I'm looking at the idea of a valid driver license being used as a medical from > slightly different viewpoints: > > 1. I think the operative word here is "valid." Some months ago, I heard a one-time > news report that the DOT was pressing for standard medical requirements for > those who wish to obtain driver licenses. No, I don't recall the specifics, > except that it didn't go very far. > > It could be that we are seeing some of that in the SLA regs. > > 2. Probably it will be the Insurance companies who will wield the big enforcement > stick... That is, offering or refusing to offer liability insurance to those > who choose to fly on their driver licenses. > > 3. Great Britain already has a system for this, which I am also a little vague > on, I recall it requires the pilot undergo a physical with his own doctor(s). > > 4. The FAA really doesn't have a very good record of spotting potential incapacitating > medical problems, and having a pilot's personal or insurance company physician > check him/her out has the potential to do a better job. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 06:36:10 AM PST US > From: "Larry McFarland" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS forms, jigs and molds > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > Bob, > I live in East Moline, IL, fly out of MLI and am located > on the part Illinois where the Mississippi runs east to west > known as the Quad Cities. > > Larry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Reinero" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS forms, jigs and molds > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Reinero" > > > > Were are you located, and are they still available? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Larry McFarland" > > To: > > Subject: Zenith-List: 601HDS forms, jigs and molds > > > > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > > >> > >> Hi guys, > >> I've just realized that I've got all the forms, jigs, some molds > >> and some special tooling for the 601HDS structure and > >> have no future use for it as I'm now flying. I don't see > >> the need for making a second plane. > >> > >> I need to sell it all with one of my two spare engines. > >> The collection occupies a space about 3' x 4' x 8' and weighs a lot. > >> > >> A couple of molds for the radiator I'll keep to make copies > >> yet spoken for, but to get space for this winters home improvement, > >> > >> I'll also keep the plans and paper associated with my plane, which > >> is not for sale. > >> > >> Anyone interested, let me know. > >> > >> Larry McFarland - 601HDS - 601HDS (flying and looking forward to paint) > >> www.macsmachine.com > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 07:52:05 AM PST US > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > Superior recommend retarding the ignition to 22 deg BFTC rather than > 25....Apparently Mogas has a faster flame travel and the reduction in > timing compensates for it. > > Frank > > However,if I'm hearing right, a few degrees of timing reduction would be > recommended to prevent detonation? (though I did not read that in > Frank's email from Dave Rogers at Superior). It sounds like Superior > says mogas is no problem, but do they tune it differently? Superior is > at the top of my list for an "experimental version" of an O-360 anyways. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 08:15:24 AM PST US > From: "Gary Craze" > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" > > > Thanks Frank. That pretty much corresponds with the other data I've > got. > > So it sounds like that if a person really wants to insure proper > detonation for the specific fuel they are using on the O-360, then one > really needs to adjust the timing to reflect the fuel being used. I > suppose you could swap fuels in a pinch without adjusting timing if you > had too, and could (generally) probably expect no severe problems. > > But it sounds like the ultimate solution is an automatic ignition system > like GAMI's new PRISM system which will automatically adjust the > ignition based on the burn of the fuel being used, so you can swap > between mogas and 100LL at whim. > > The vast majority of time I'm in a place with available 100LL. I did > like the cost savings on my old C-170 when I was burning mogas, but a > lot of time I had to pump it myself at the gas station and hand fill the > plane from 5-gallon cans. It was pretty time consuming and semi-heavy > lifting, and I often found myself just taxiing down to the self-serve > 100LL pumps and filling it up and biting the cost bullet. > > But in the semi-distant future, I plan on flying the CH801 to a turf > strip I'm building at our ranch outside of San Antonio, so I'd really > only have mogas there (though I could easily hop over to a nearby field > that does have 100LL and fill up...). > > Sounds like I'll plan on setting the tuning for 100LL. > > Many thanks again everyone! > Gary Craze > Houston, TX > N801GC (reserved) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, > Frank George (Corvallis) > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > --> > > Superior recommend retarding the ignition to 22 deg BFTC rather than > 25....Apparently Mogas has a faster flame travel and the reduction in > timing compensates for it. > > Frank > > However,if I'm hearing right, a few degrees of timing reduction would be > recommended to prevent detonation? (though I did not read that in > Frank's email from Dave Rogers at Superior). It sounds like Superior > says mogas is no problem, but do they tune it differently? Superior is > at the top of my list for an "experimental version" of an O-360 anyways. > > > == > == > == > == > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 08:53:54 AM PST US > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > To be honest I don't think the 3 degrees will make that much difference. > I intend to set mine to 22 degrees and fill it with watever I can find > above 91 oct including 100LL. > > I wonder how the new auto ignition system senses the fuel octane and > corresponding advance?...The way this is done in new auto's is by using > a knock sensor...I.e the the timing is advanced until it just > pre-ignites and then retards the ignition. > > Adding knock sensors in an after market situation I did not think was > easy...I would want to see a number of these new systems working before > I bought one. > > I can tell you in my little EA 81 soob using 100LL makes no detectable > difference and I certainly don't go around adjusting the > timing...:)...No "in a pinch" about it. > > Do you have a website for this new GAMI system?...I'll be purchasing an > IO360 next year. > > Thanks > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Craze > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" > > > Thanks Frank. That pretty much corresponds with the other data I've > got. > > So it sounds like that if a person really wants to insure proper > detonation for the specific fuel they are using on the O-360, then one > really needs to adjust the timing to reflect the fuel being used. I > suppose you could swap fuels in a pinch without adjusting timing if you > had too, and could (generally) probably expect no severe problems. > > But it sounds like the ultimate solution is an automatic ignition system > like GAMI's new PRISM system which will automatically adjust the > ignition based on the burn of the fuel being used, so you can swap > between mogas and 100LL at whim. > > The vast majority of time I'm in a place with available 100LL. I did > like the cost savings on my old C-170 when I was burning mogas, but a > lot of time I had to pump it myself at the gas station and hand fill the > plane from 5-gallon cans. It was pretty time consuming and semi-heavy > lifting, and I often found myself just taxiing down to the self-serve > 100LL pumps and filling it up and biting the cost bullet. > > But in the semi-distant future, I plan on flying the CH801 to a turf > strip I'm building at our ranch outside of San Antonio, so I'd really > only have mogas there (though I could easily hop over to a nearby field > that does have 100LL and fill up...). > > Sounds like I'll plan on setting the tuning for 100LL. > > Many thanks again everyone! > Gary Craze > Houston, TX > N801GC (reserved) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, > Frank George (Corvallis) > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > --> > > Superior recommend retarding the ignition to 22 deg BFTC rather than > 25....Apparently Mogas has a faster flame travel and the reduction in > timing compensates for it. > > Frank > > However,if I'm hearing right, a few degrees of timing reduction would be > recommended to prevent detonation? (though I did not read that in > Frank's email from Dave Rogers at Superior). It sounds like Superior > says mogas is no problem, but do they tune it differently? Superior is > at the top of my list for an "experimental version" of an O-360 anyways. > > > == > == > == > == > > > == > == > == > == > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 09:21:30 AM PST US > From: "Gary Craze" > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" > > > That sounds like a good plan, since even 91+ octane mogas is still way > cheaper than 100LL. And I bet we're talking about small performance > changes between 22 degrees and 24/25 degrees on a 360. > > The GAMI system is on www.gami.com. Check out their products section > for the PRISM system (Pressure Reactive Intelligent Spark Management). > It was just recently announced and no price yet, but I'm guessing it's > very pricey, and probably outweighs the cost savings you would ever > realize from running mogas, even factored over many years of service. > > I rebuilt an EA-81 for a Nieuport replica I was building. Never ran > 100LL in it, but I'm guessing that for the lower horsepower engines, > it's probably a non-issue of low octance mogas versus 100LL. About the > same with the 145hp O-300 in my old C-170. Just slapped the EAA STC > sticker on it and filled it with whatever was available. Never noticed > a difference. > > Rgds, > Gary Craze > Houston, TX > N801GC (reserved) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, > Frank George (Corvallis) > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > --> > > To be honest I don't think the 3 degrees will make that much difference. > I intend to set mine to 22 degrees and fill it with watever I can find > above 91 oct including 100LL. > > I wonder how the new auto ignition system senses the fuel octane and > corresponding advance?...The way this is done in new auto's is by using > a knock sensor...I.e the the timing is advanced until it just > pre-ignites and then retards the ignition. > > Adding knock sensors in an after market situation I did not think was > easy...I would want to see a number of these new systems working before > I bought one. > > I can tell you in my little EA 81 soob using 100LL makes no detectable > difference and I certainly don't go around adjusting the > timing...:)...No "in a pinch" about it. > > Do you have a website for this new GAMI system?...I'll be purchasing an > IO360 next year. > > Thanks > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Craze > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" > > > Thanks Frank. That pretty much corresponds with the other data I've > got. > > So it sounds like that if a person really wants to insure proper > detonation for the specific fuel they are using on the O-360, then one > really needs to adjust the timing to reflect the fuel being used. I > suppose you could swap fuels in a pinch without adjusting timing if you > had too, and could (generally) probably expect no severe problems. > > But it sounds like the ultimate solution is an automatic ignition system > like GAMI's new PRISM system which will automatically adjust the > ignition based on the burn of the fuel being used, so you can swap > between mogas and 100LL at whim. > > The vast majority of time I'm in a place with available 100LL. I did > like the cost savings on my old C-170 when I was burning mogas, but a > lot of time I had to pump it myself at the gas station and hand fill the > plane from 5-gallon cans. It was pretty time consuming and semi-heavy > lifting, and I often found myself just taxiing down to the self-serve > 100LL pumps and filling it up and biting the cost bullet. > > But in the semi-distant future, I plan on flying the CH801 to a turf > strip I'm building at our ranch outside of San Antonio, so I'd really > only have mogas there (though I could easily hop over to a nearby field > that does have 100LL and fill up...). > > Sounds like I'll plan on setting the tuning for 100LL. > > Many thanks again everyone! > Gary Craze > Houston, TX > N801GC (reserved) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, > Frank George (Corvallis) > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > --> > > Superior recommend retarding the ignition to 22 deg BFTC rather than > 25....Apparently Mogas has a faster flame travel and the reduction in > timing compensates for it. > > Frank > > However,if I'm hearing right, a few degrees of timing reduction would be > recommended to prevent detonation? (though I did not read that in > Frank's email from Dave Rogers at Superior). It sounds like Superior > says mogas is no problem, but do they tune it differently? Superior is > at the top of my list for an "experimental version" of an O-360 anyways. > > > == > == > == > == > > > == > == > == > == > > > == > == > == > == > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 09:40:58 AM PST US > From: "The Keeners" > Subject: Zenith-List: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Keeners" > > Zenith Gurus: > > Is anyone aware of nosewheel shimmy problems on the XL? > I'm still trying to decide if I should go with the tail dragger. > > Thank you. > Forest K. > N601FK (Reserved) > Starter Kit Started > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 09:57:30 AM PST US > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > Slightly off topic but I did just get a rsponse from Bart at Aerosport > power (purveyors of Eci and Superior parts build 360's) He said that > Superior actively endorse the use of 91 oct mogas in their experimental > o360's whereas Eci kinda tolerates it. > > Read...If there is valve seat damage Superiors warranty will cover it > (unless they can prove damage caused by fuel contamination) whereas > ECI's will not. > > It may well be that the valve/seat material is exactly the same but the > warranty effects could well be worth the extra $1100 for the superior > engine....At 10 gallons an hour its about 110 hours of payback using > Mogas. > > Might be a usefeul thought for anyone considering a Lycoming clone. > > Frank > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 12:30:50 PM PST US > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > Correct, but I think it is a recommendation rather than an absolute > must. > > Superior I do not believe does anything different to ECI but ECI seems > to provide something of a "tailight warranty" when using Mogas. > > Like burnt valve seats+mogas=you pay for the rebuild. With Sduperior > their warranty covers its use. > > Superior engiens are about $1100 more than ECI built engines. > > Now the next question is...The lightspeed ignition systems allow quite a > bit more advance at certain engine operation....How does this stack up > with Mogas? > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, > Frank George (Corvallis) > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > --> > > Superior recommend retarding the ignition to 22 deg BFTC rather than > 25....Apparently Mogas has a faster flame travel and the reduction in > timing compensates for it. > > Frank > > However,if I'm hearing right, a few degrees of timing reduction would be > recommended to prevent detonation? (though I did not read that in > Frank's email from Dave Rogers at Superior). It sounds like Superior > says mogas is no problem, but do they tune it differently? Superior is > at the top of my list for an "experimental version" of an O-360 anyways. > > > == > == > == > == > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ > > > Time: 12:44:26 PM PST US > From: "Frank Jones" > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE:Exhaust fumes in cabin > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" > > My CO problem is now resolved. As suspected it was due to leakage at the > knuckle joints of the exhaust system. 1st, I greased each joint with > anti-seize compound and tried it out. This may have reduced CO a bit but > I still was getting readings. Next I wrapped each joint with a > fiberglass cloth and placed aluminum tape over it. The ensure nothing > came loose I added a hose clamp on either side of the gap - no more CO > in the cabin. > > Thanks for everyone's help. > > Frank Jones - 601XL 912S > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ > > > Time: 03:52:09 PM PST US > From: "Brett " > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " > > I have never had mine shimmy. I have had a 152 do it to me sometimes > though. > > > > Zenith Gurus: > > > > Is anyone aware of nosewheel shimmy problems on the XL? > > I'm still trying to decide if I should go with the tail dragger. > > > > Thank you. > > Forest K. > > N601FK (Reserved) > > Starter Kit Started > >do not arcive > > > Thanks > Brett Ray > www.hog-air.com > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ > > > Time: 05:22:28 PM PST US > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) > From: Ray Montagne > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne > > On 10/20/04 3:51 PM, "Brett" wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " > > > > I have never had mine shimmy. I have had a 152 do it to me sometimes > > though. > > > > > > Haven't heard of a nose wheel shimmy but please be aware that a tail wheel > can shimmy too! > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > Best Regards, Ray Montagne > Cupertino, CA > > =========================================================================== > > Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL > Build Status: Rudder completed > Elevator Completed > Stabilizer Completed > Flaps Completed > Ailerons Completed > Right Wing Completed > Right Wing Tip Completed > Left Wing Completed > Right Wing Tip Completed > Fuselage Under Construction > > NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include > the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' in the subject line will be > rejected and will not be viewable by me. > > =========================================================================== > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ > > > Time: 08:19:37 PM PST US > Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Wing Installation > From: Jimmy Parker > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jimmy Parker > > I'm ready to mount my wings. > > Anybody have a "procedure"? > I can't find a "how to" anywhere. > > Thanks, > Jim 5098 701 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ > > > Time: 09:20:56 PM PST US > From: Benford2@aol.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > In a message dated 10/20/2004 1:31:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > frank.hinde@hp.com writes: > > > > > > Now the next question is...The lightspeed ignition systems allow quite a > > bit more advance at certain engine operation....How does this stack up > > with Mogas? > > > > Frank > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel specs > and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines of all > kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also started > and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just before I > moved here to Jackson Hole Wy. > > 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel. 100 LL > blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green 100-130 > had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation. If any > of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was > available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports operating out > of > them > 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the sticker on > the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane number and > the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91. Don't > assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your timing to a > conservative advance setting. > 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is closely > regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant whereever you > buy > it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason being we > are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my V-8 all > aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is set at 33 > > degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes to switch > > between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my panel. Now > keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if I was > based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of degrees for > a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at this > elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune your engine > > for your local area. > > 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing his > homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it during the hot > summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is another one of the tests > > that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on it.100LL > is > the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time > and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level with > the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money and buy > > 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel > will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a short > > strip. > > Ben Haas N801BH do not archive > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ > > > Time: 11:05:46 PM PST US > From: "Brett " > Subject: Zenith-List: Sebring FL > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " > > Is anyone going to Sebring next week? If so stop by I'll have the XL > there with the Harley in it. I am planing on flying down Sat. or Sun. > if the weather will give me a break. > > Thanks > Brett Ray > www.hog-air.com > do not archive > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ > > > Time: 11:29:06 PM PST US > From: "Dirk Slabbert" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" > > Whoa Ben ! there you said it, right to the point ! > Thanks for a very good explanation, could just keep some pilot out of harm's way. > What is the solution for vapour lock then, if any ? temperature regularly goes > to 100 here on my little strip. > Regards, > Dirk. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Benford2@aol.com > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 6:20 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > > In a message dated 10/20/2004 1:31:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > frank.hinde@hp.com writes: > > > > > > Now the next question is...The lightspeed ignition systems allow quite a > > bit more advance at certain engine operation....How does this stack up > > with Mogas? > > > > Frank > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel specs > and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines of all > kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also started > and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just before I > moved here to Jackson Hole Wy. > > 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel. 100 LL > blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green 100-130 > had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation. If any > of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was > available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports operating out > of > them > 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the sticker on > the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane number and > the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91. Don't > assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your timing to a > conservative advance setting. > 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is closely > regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant whereever you > buy > it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason being we > are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my V-8 all > aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is set at > 33 > degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes to switch > between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my panel. Now > keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if I was > based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of degrees for > a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at this > elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune your engine > for your local area. > > 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing his > homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it during the hot > summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is another one of the tests > that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on it.100LL > is > the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time > and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level with > the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money and > buy > 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel > will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a short > strip. > > Ben Haas N801BH do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:52 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: RE: Corrosion-X --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Could you tell us what equipment is needed and the basic techniques for "fogging" the Corrosion-X into closed structures? This is an interesting thread - more info would be appreciated. Brandon Tucker HDS wings & tail complete do not archive _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:42 PM PST US From: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Subject: Zenith-List: Looking to buy a CH 601 HD or XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" I'm looking to buy a completed (and restrictions flown off) aircraft. I'm looking specifically for an HD or XL to meet the E-LSA rules. According to Sebastian Heinz the ASTM certification standards for E-LSA's and factory manufactured LSA's will be officially released next week at the Sport Plane Expo in Sebring FL. They were published for distribution this past Thursday and, if you really want a copy of the 83 page standard, ASTM will sell you one for $125.00... in paperback of course! If you've got a plane for sale, or are thinking of selling, please let me know. Thanks, Jeff Glassserow 908-735-6022 (NJ) jeffglass@bigfoot.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: nosewheel shimmy From: Ray Montagne --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne On 10/23/04 6:34 PM, "Roy Engelke" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roy Engelke" > > I have had shimmy on the nose wheeel as well as the mains. This hasn't > happened so much on the taleoff or landing roll, but on the spin-down ofter > takeoff. That does not seem to describe a shimmy. It does seem to describe warped brake discs and is easily stopped by applying the brakes when airborne. A shimmy would occur on the ground and applying brakes is more likely to exacerbate the situation. DO NOT ARCHIVE Best Regards, Ray Montagne Cupertino, CA =========================================================================== Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL Build Status: Rudder completed Elevator Completed Stabilizer Completed Flaps Completed Ailerons Completed Right Wing Completed Right Wing Tip Completed Left Wing Completed Right Wing Tip Completed Fuselage Under Construction NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' in the subject line will be rejected and will not be viewable by me. =========================================================================== ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:45 PM PST US From: howado Subject: Zenith-List: Nose wheel shimmy --> Zenith-List message posted by: howado Regarding the shimmy problem it may be that the Zenith aircraft with this problem have something in common with Cessna aircraft. My 172'Skydog'' had nose shimmy whenever the dampener wore out; replacing it always solved the problem. It was an essential part of the Cessna design. Do the Zenith aircraft use a dampener? If not, it might be worth adding. Howard Carter do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:16 PM PST US From: xl Subject: Zenith-List: CH601XL nose wheel fork + jabiru 3300 starter on N633Z --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl Yaaay! I flew today after being grounded for 3 weeks by the weather + a bad starter. There was (according to BFI ATIS) cumulonimbus at 3500 ft. But it was overhead + to the East and after a trip around the pattern and a touch + go to get my bearings I headed West into clear skies. I replaced the starter. Jabiru replaced my starter under the warrantee. The bearing fell out at ~70 hours. I pounded it back in and used loctite, as suggested on this list. It fell out again 3 weeks ago at 125 hours. I was at PWT doing my wings for my two year flight review. So I field repaired it and got back to BFI. It fell out again next time I tried to start it. So being a cautious pilot, and having MVFR skies, I waited until this weekend to go flying with a new (better 1.5kW vs 1Kw) starter. Regarding the nose wheel fork: I believe the original one is not quite up to the job. It is 3/16" inch 6061T6. And it has lots of play. When I grabbed the nose and rocked so did the plane. The CFI that I'm doing my review with did notice that the plane was squirrley on the ground. When I had a big guy in the right seat and I put on the brakes the plane went right and the gouge in the tire got bigger. So I replaced the fork with 3/8" 6061T6. Now it doesn't wander as much while taxiing and taking off and landing - a very noticable difference. And when I shake the nose it doesn't sway. And I'm not worried about it swaying when I land. I've posted a couple of pics at: http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/ nose_fork_new.jpg nose_fork_new_old.jpg. The new fork weighs about 1 pound more than the old one. I did have to make a new axle because of the larger the bend radius of the 3/8" stock. The shop that bent it for me did comment that 3/8" 6061T6 is much harder to bend than 3/16" and that may be why 3/16" was used. It cost me $40 for the material and $60 for the bend. Regarding shimmy, I've haven't had any. Just swerved when the old nose fork flexed. (Not any more.) George suggested that I post a picture of my instrument lights. So I did see: instrument_light.jpg It's a pair of sailboat cockpit LEDs focused on the panel. I have flown them at night. They are just bright enough. Be better if they were a bit brighter. I may replace them with different LEDs now that I know they work. I can see the instruments fine. But I can't set the altimeter - can't see that window. And the compass isn't quite visible enough. But, the altimeter, ASI, VSI and turn + bank coordinator show up fine. I do carry a few flashlights..... Joe E N633Z @ BFI 126 hours