---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/24/04: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:17 AM - Re: Corvair (Cleone Markwell) 2. 07:02 AM - Re: Rotax 912 install question (Frank Jones) 3. 09:21 AM - 701 Gross weight (John Birgiolas) 4. 09:22 AM - Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (Carlos Sa) 5. 09:59 AM - Re: 701 Gross weight (Ken Szewc) 6. 10:10 AM - Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (xl) 7. 11:35 AM - Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (Jeff Small) 8. 12:21 PM - Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (Jack Russell) 9. 01:19 PM - Re: 701 Gross weight (Hal Rozema) 10. 02:48 PM - Useful Load on the Xl (Matt & Jo) 11. 03:18 PM - Re: Nose wheel shimmy (Aaron) 12. 03:53 PM - Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (Carlos Sa) 13. 04:04 PM - Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (Michel Therrien) 14. 05:39 PM - W&B question (Jeff Paden) 15. 06:04 PM - Re: deteriorating wires advisory (Pwalsh4539@aol.com) 16. 06:06 PM - Re: W&B question (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 17. 06:34 PM - Re: W&B question (Larry McFarland) 18. 06:57 PM - Re: W&B question (cgalley) 19. 07:56 PM - Useful Load (Matt & Jo) 20. 08:26 PM - Re: 701 Wing Installation (Mike Sinclair) 21. 08:28 PM - Re: Useful Load (Bryan Martin) 22. 08:38 PM - Re: 701 Wing Installation (Jimmy Parker) 23. 10:14 PM - Useful Load for Zenith CH701SP (howado) 24. 10:37 PM - Re: W&B question (Benford2@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:56 AM PST US From: Cleone Markwell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair --> Zenith-List message posted by: Cleone Markwell Al, are you the one William Wynne told me was starting to build up a Corvair engine but now is buying the one he has for sale? How ares you getting along with the XL? Cleone At 06:48 PM 10/23/04, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" > >I've got a 64 corvair engine I don't need if anyone is interested. Contact >me off list. Al Young >Armyret@one-eleven.net >Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:00 AM PST US From: "Frank Jones" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rotax 912 install question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" I capped manifold equalizing line T off. Presumably you could put a manifold pressure sensor on it also. Everything functions fine. I'm not familiar with the rubber line you are asking about. Frank Jones - 601XL 912ULS > I've started to plumb in my fuel lines for the 912 in my 601 and I have > a question about the carb fuel manifold. > The manifold splitter for the fuel going to each carb has an extra > outlet on it that's supposed to be a fuel return line to the tank. Is > it really required to run this back into my header tank or can I cap it > off? I'm assuming its an over pressure return line for the fuel pump > right? > > Also, the carbs on mine were originally connected together with some > rubber hose that ran from the back side of the cabs just over the float > bowl covers and this rubber line has a "tee" it in as well. I'm not > sure what to do about this line. Its not the overflow line from the > side of the carb near the air filters. > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:04 AM PST US From: "John Birgiolas" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Gross weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Birgiolas" Having completed the 701 it's time to do the paperwork. Is there a general consensus as to listing of the gross weight. I was thinking of registering my gross at 1200 lbs to stay under the Canadian Advanced Ultralight weight category. I am registered as an amateur built. With an empty weight of 680 lbs.(912s), I need some wiggle room. Or does the 701 fly poorly over gross, and should I keep the 1100lb. gross? Thanks John B ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:09 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL nose wheel fork --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Joe, a comment on the landing gear fork: Looking at my plans (CH601-HD), the wheel fork is indeed 3/16" thick, but it is composed of two pieces, as seen in these pictures from L. MacFarland's site: http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/final-fit.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/forkscut.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/brakes2forks.gif You did not mention that in your posting, so I'm wondering if that part was missing, what could have accounted for excessive flexibility...? Picture http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/swedish_mufflers6.jpg seems to show the thin fork with no doubler... Regards Carlos CH601-HD Rebuilding centre spar > Regarding the nose wheel fork: I believe the original one is not quite > up to the job. It is 3/16" inch 6061T6. And it has lots of play. When > I grabbed the nose and rocked so did the plane. The CFI that I'm doing > my review with did notice that the plane was squirrley on the ground. > When I had a big guy in the right seat and I put on the brakes the > plane went right and the gouge in the tire got bigger. > So I replaced the fork with 3/8" 6061T6. Now it doesn't wander as > much while taxiing and taking off and landing - a very noticable > difference. And when I shake the nose it doesn't sway. And I'm not > worried about it swaying when I land. I've posted a couple of pics at: > http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/ nose_fork_new.jpg nose_fork_new_old.jpg. > The new fork weighs about 1 pound more than the old one. > I did have to make a new axle because of the larger the bend radius > of the 3/8" stock. The shop that bent it for me did comment that 3/8" > 6061T6 is much harder to bend than 3/16" and that may be why 3/16" > was used. It cost me $40 for the material and $60 for the bend. > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:19 AM PST US From: Ken Szewc Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 701 Gross weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ken Szewc Or does the 701 fly poorly over gross, and should I keep the 1100lb. gross? Thanks John B John, I listed mine as 1200 and have flown at that weight with no problems. You will notice a difference when landing. The extra weight gives it more inertia and a little more speed on flare. I think this makes it easier to make smooth landings. Here's more information than you asked for. With just me and low fuel, the flare and touchdown are (esp with flaps) almost one in the same. This airplane does not float in ground effect because it slows down so quickly. Of course that's what it is designed to do, land short. I carry about 3000 rpm right down to the runway to smooth thinks out and to get better rudder/elevator response. Even with this the landings are still very short. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:04 AM PST US From: xl Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL nose wheel fork --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl My nose fork was built to the spec. I even asked Zenith about it. The 601XL nose fork is shown in the plans as one piece of 3/16" 6061T6. My EAA chapter meets at Opportunities Skyway The students there have built 2 601HDs. Their nose forks look like two pieces of material each thinner than called out for an XL. Another thing of note. When I stand on the old fork, set on it's side, I can bend it almost to the ground. Not so with the new one. It moves maybe a 1/4". I feel much better about my nose wheel fork now. Cheers, Joe On Sun, 24 Oct 2004, Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > Joe, a comment on the landing gear fork: > > Looking at my plans (CH601-HD), the wheel fork is indeed 3/16" thick, but it is composed of two > pieces, as seen in these pictures from L. MacFarland's site: > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/final-fit.gif > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/forkscut.gif > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/brakes2forks.gif > > You did not mention that in your posting, so I'm wondering if that part was missing, what could > have accounted for excessive flexibility...? > Picture http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/swedish_mufflers6.jpg seems to show the thin fork with no > doubler... > Regards > Carlos > CH601-HD > Rebuilding centre spar > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:50 AM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL nose wheel fork --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" >My nose fork was built to the spec. I even asked Zenith about it. >The 601XL nose fork is shown in the plans as one piece of 3/16" 6061T6. You built a nose fork, you just didn't build and add the doubler. 3/16 + 3/16 3/8 The jpeg that Carlos mentions definitely lacks the doubler called for in the plans; no wonder you had a wavy ride! do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:07 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL nose wheel fork --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell I also question the wobble in the fork on the XL. It does appear that a side load on the nose gear could bend it. I saw the doubler on the 601 but checked the plans and ZAC doesn't call for it. Now I am wondering if I should make the doubler. Have many of you flying XL drivers had any problems with the stock nose wheel? Jack in clovis ca Jeff Small wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" >My nose fork was built to the spec. I even asked Zenith about it. >The 601XL nose fork is shown in the plans as one piece of 3/16" 6061T6. You built a nose fork, you just didn't build and add the doubler. 3/16 + 3/16 3/8 The jpeg that Carlos mentions definitely lacks the doubler called for in the plans; no wonder you had a wavy ride! do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:22 PM PST US From: Hal Rozema Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Gross weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema John Birgiolas wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Birgiolas" > >Having completed the 701 it's time to do the paperwork. Is there a general consensus as to listing of the gross weight. I was thinking of registering my gross at 1200 lbs to stay under the Canadian Advanced Ultralight weight category. I am registered as an amateur built. With an empty weight of 680 lbs.(912s), I need some wiggle room. Or does the 701 fly poorly over gross, and should I keep the 1100lb. gross? Thanks John B > > > > I think you will find that Zenith and Czech both list 1250 if planning on floats Hal ThePlaneFolks.Net CH701 VSTOL / 3300 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:21 PM PST US From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Zenith-List: Useful Load on the Xl --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" Question for all you Xl folks. What sort of usefull load are you ending up with. How accurate is the data that ZAC supplies. I am assuming that that was with a VFR Package. I would be intersted to hear what you all are ending up with? Also is the 1300 that they are looking at for a Max GW dependant on the new Sport catagory. Can that be incresed if you want to just keep it as an experimental? Still Researching Matt ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:05 PM PST US From: "Aaron" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nose wheel shimmy --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Aaron" If the shimmy stops when you apply brakes after leaving ground, it could be a wheel balance problem. Use stick on weights to correct. Aaron ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:45 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL nose wheel fork --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Judging by the XL sample drawing at http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/sample-6g1.pdf the XL does *not* require doublers! Carlos --- Jeff Small wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > >My nose fork was built to the spec. I even asked Zenith about it. > >The 601XL nose fork is shown in the plans as one piece of 3/16" 6061T6. > > You built a nose fork, you just didn't build and add the doubler. 3/16 + 3/16 3/8 > > The jpeg that Carlos mentions definitely lacks the doubler called for in the plans; no wonder > you had a wavy ride! > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:47 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL nose wheel fork --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I know somebody to flies a Pelican. He had a similar fork, but 1/4 thick and he bent it twice during hard landings. Mine is doubled 1/4" and while I initially thought it was heavy, I now feel more comfortable having it like that (I did a couple of bad landings you know?). PS: when I started my project, I quickly learned not to rely on the sample drawings shown on the web site (I made 0.025" ribs --instead of 0.032"-- for the landing gear box as one example). Perhaps somebody that has the real plans can verify this information. --- Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > > Judging by the XL sample drawing at > http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/sample-6g1.pdf > the XL does *not* require doublers! > > > Carlos > > > --- Jeff Small wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > > > > > >My nose fork was built to the spec. I even asked > Zenith about it. > > >The 601XL nose fork is shown in the plans as one > piece of 3/16" 6061T6. > > > > You built a nose fork, you just didn't build and > add the doubler. 3/16 + 3/16 3/8 > > > > The jpeg that Carlos mentions definitely lacks the > doubler called for in the plans; no wonder > > you had a wavy ride! ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:03 PM PST US Received-SPF: none (MAIL-SERVER.madbbs.com: domain of jeffpaden@madbbs.com does not designate any permitted senders) From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Zenith-List: W&B question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" Can any one on this list answer a few questions for me about Weight and Balance? First off all, when I did my W&B on my CH-640 I found that the nose is VERY heavy and the CG is way out of forward limit. Ok, I expected that since I installed a 260 HP engine and I can correct this by adding weight to the tail of the aircraft. However, the published empty weight of the aircraft is 1147 lbs. Mine is 1478 lbs and I need to add 100 lbs to the tail to correct the CG so then I will be 1578 lbs. OUCH! The published DESIGN GROSS WEIGHT is 2200 lbs so this will only leave me with 622 lbs for fuel passengers, and baggage. Umm the aircraft holds 46 gal of fuel for 276 lbs so I only have 346 lbs left. I am 180 lbs which means I can only take on another 166 lbs. This seems very wrong to me so I must be doing something wrong. Is the published design gross weight 2200 lbs because of the 180 hp engine they used and if so would my gross weight limit be higher since I have 260 hp or is that limit there because of structural limitations of the aircraft? Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated. Thank you Jeff Paden Two more days of work before they come to inspect my baby. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:33 PM PST US From: Pwalsh4539@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: deteriorating wires advisory --> Zenith-List message posted by: Pwalsh4539@aol.com I have the 912 ul on my 601...1997 era. While replacing my battery today, I had to disconnect the leads from the stator to the regulator. I noticed when unplugging the yellow wires from the regulator that the insulation is very gummy, in fact, you can easily remove it with very little trouble with your fingertips. These are the 2 yellow wires sheathed in black and with the braided metal cover(alternator wires). Mainly, I just wanted to notify the list about this, because it may be something easily missed during inspection. Also, I am fairly sure that this could be the reason for the AD on the stator by Rotax a while back. I did not replace my stator, was told by a rep that it really is not required if the aircraftis hangared, etc. This is not a problem inside the stator, but with the external wires, although it could be inside also, as I have not checked that yet. Needless to say, I will not fly until fixing this little problem. Comments? Patrick Walsh 601 HD ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:58 PM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: W&B question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com Hello Jeff: I really hope you're not screwed by this...sounds like that 260 HP is gonna cost you plenty ! Move the battery and as much other stuff you can (ELT, etc) to the tail. Every pound moved is a pound of additional load you can carry. W & B is NOT a function of either horsepower OR structural integrity (well, secondarily, yes it is)...it's about BALENCE. You're nose heavy. Ouch. In a message dated 10/24/2004 8:39:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeffpaden@madbbs.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" Can any one on this list answer a few questions for me about Weight and Balance? First off all, when I did my W&B on my CH-640 I found that the nose is VERY heavy and the CG is way out of forward limit. Ok, I expected that since I installed a 260 HP engine and I can correct this by adding weight to the tail of the aircraft. However, the published empty weight of the aircraft is 1147 lbs. Mine is 1478 lbs and I need to add 100 lbs to the tail to correct the CG so then I will be 1578 lbs. OUCH! The published DESIGN GROSS WEIGHT is 2200 lbs so this will only leave me with 622 lbs for fuel passengers, and baggage. Umm the aircraft holds 46 gal of fuel for 276 lbs so I only have 346 lbs left. I am 180 lbs which means I can only take on another 166 lbs. This seems very wrong to me so I must be doing something wrong. Is the published design gross weight 2200 lbs because of the 180 hp engine they used and if so would my gross weight limit be higher since I have 260 hp or is that limit there because of structural limitations of the aircraft? Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated. Thank you Jeff Paden Two more days of work before they come to inspect my baby. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:34 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: W&B question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Jeff, I'd put off your inspection pronto, sell the 260-HP engine or trade down to the size specified for this aircraft. The design strength of the airframe is very much involved in the size of the engine specified for the CH640 and in adding so much weight coupled with the horsepower, that is torque on the airframe, you risk undoing what you've spent these long months building. If you didn't expand the structure, main attachments at the forward end of the fuselage by the numbers, with Nicks approval, the engine should come off. In the long run, the smaller engine will haul all you can carry permit correct loading and balance, all of which the 260-hp compromises. Faster is not always better, especially, if it risks getting there at all. Call ZAC and express your problem with them and see where it goes from there. Do not pass go with the Airworthiness unless you have ZACs blessing. The Fed won't know how to save you from yourself if your numbers balance just to pass an inspection. If you succeed in flight and then loose your life, we all have to expect to have to pay for the consequences of a Gotta go fast syndrome and eventually our freedom to build. Just food for thought. Respectfully, Larry McFarland - 601HDS (slower, but safe transport per plans) Subject: Zenith-List: W&B question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" > > Can any one on this list answer a few questions for me about Weight and > Balance? > > First off all, when I did my W&B on my CH-640 I found that the nose is > VERY > heavy and the CG is way out of forward limit. > > Ok, I expected that since I installed a 260 HP engine and I can correct > this > by adding weight to the tail of the aircraft. > > However, the published empty weight of the aircraft is 1147 lbs. Mine is > 1478 lbs and I need to add 100 lbs to the tail to correct the CG so then I > will be 1578 lbs. OUCH! > > The published DESIGN GROSS WEIGHT is 2200 lbs so this will only leave me > with 622 lbs for fuel passengers, and baggage. Umm the aircraft holds 46 > gal of fuel for 276 lbs so I only have 346 lbs left. I am 180 lbs which > means I can only take on another 166 lbs. This seems very wrong to me so > I > must be doing something wrong. > > Is the published design gross weight 2200 lbs because of the 180 hp engine > they used and if so would my gross weight limit be higher since I have 260 > hp or is that limit there because of structural limitations of the > aircraft? > > Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated. > > Thank you > > Jeff Paden > Two more days of work before they come to inspect my baby. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:29 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: W&B question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Have you had your numbers checked over with an EAA Technical Counselor? AC 43.13-1B has the method to do weight and Balance as does the Flight testing Manual AC -90-89A Have you located your battery as far back as possible? Is there any way you can shorten the motor mount? Are you using a constant speed prop. You may want to go with a fixed pitch and save the 40 pounds up front. Do you have a light weight starter and alternator? Have you considered making a lighter weight cowl of carbon fiber. Are there any areas that you "beefed up" that could be rebuilt per plans? Extra sound proofing and heavy upholstery? I know all these items are changes that will set you flight date back. However you will find a lighter airplane to handle much better. It will land slower and thus safer. Last, Have you run this past Zenith? They may have some suggestions. I hope that you have gotten some transition training in like make and model. Many builder/ flyers are more than willing to help in this regard. Find a Flight Advisor to help you. Get the FAA Test flying manual... AC 90-89A Amatuer-Built Aircraft & Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook You can get it off the EAA or FAA website. You don't want you first flight to be your very last one. Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Zenith-List: W&B question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" > > Can any one on this list answer a few questions for me about Weight and > Balance? > > First off all, when I did my W&B on my CH-640 I found that the nose is VERY > heavy and the CG is way out of forward limit. > > Ok, I expected that since I installed a 260 HP engine and I can correct this > by adding weight to the tail of the aircraft. > > However, the published empty weight of the aircraft is 1147 lbs. Mine is > 1478 lbs and I need to add 100 lbs to the tail to correct the CG so then I > will be 1578 lbs. OUCH! > > The published DESIGN GROSS WEIGHT is 2200 lbs so this will only leave me > with 622 lbs for fuel passengers, and baggage. Umm the aircraft holds 46 > gal of fuel for 276 lbs so I only have 346 lbs left. I am 180 lbs which > means I can only take on another 166 lbs. This seems very wrong to me so I > must be doing something wrong. > > Is the published design gross weight 2200 lbs because of the 180 hp engine > they used and if so would my gross weight limit be higher since I have 260 > hp or is that limit there because of structural limitations of the aircraft? > > Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated. > > Thank you > > Jeff Paden > Two more days of work before they come to inspect my baby. > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:25 PM PST US From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Zenith-List: Useful Load --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" Ok time for a dumb Question. RE my earlier question I assumed the empty weight was dry and that the fuel was accounted in the useful load. What is the definition of useful load that ZAC has on his website? Does this include fuel weight? Thanks Matt ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:26 PM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Wing Installation --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair I hung my wings from the ceiling of the hangar and just kept adjusting the ropes (light weight nylon) until I had them tweaked where I wanted and had drilled the attach holes. It made it easy to measure twice before I cut the once. Also wasn't rushed on getting things right as I would have been I would have had help. Now as soon as I can get the new right wing built I can do it again. Jimmy Parker wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jimmy Parker > > I'm ready to mount my wings. > > Anybody have a "procedure"? > I can't find a "how to" anywhere. > > Thanks, > Jim 5098 701 > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Useful Load From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 10/24/04 10:55 PM, Matt & Jo at archermj@swbell.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" > > Ok time for a dumb Question. RE my earlier question > > I assumed the empty weight was dry and that the fuel was accounted in the > useful load. > > What is the definition of useful load that ZAC has on his website? Does this > include fuel weight? > > Thanks > > Matt Useful load is fuel, pilot, passengers and baggage; anything not included in empty weight. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Wing Installation From: Jimmy Parker --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jimmy Parker Thanks for the reply Mike. What and where did you do any measurements? Jim 5098 701 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:03 PM PST US From: howado Subject: Zenith-List: Useful Load for Zenith CH701SP 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> Zenith-List message posted by: howado To Matt and Jo; Chris Heintz' Flight Test Manual for the 701SP uses the formula Gross Wt = Empty Wt + Useful Load Wt. Therefore, the useful load includes fuel, passengers (incl pilot), and baggage. The Operator's Manual points out that various combinations of 1 or 2 passengers, standard fuel, optional fuel, and baggage will load the aircraft over the Max Design Gross Wt and affect the CG. Howard Carter 701SP 15% ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:22 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: W&B question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 10/24/2004 6:39:50 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jeffpaden@madbbs.com writes: > > Can any one on this list answer a few questions for me about Weight and > Balance? > > First off all, when I did my W&B on my CH-640 I found that the nose is VERY > heavy and the CG is way out of forward limit. > > Ok, I expected that since I installed a 260 HP engine and I can correct this > by adding weight to the tail of the aircraft. > > However, the published empty weight of the aircraft is 1147 lbs. Mine is > 1478 lbs and I need to add 100 lbs to the tail to correct the CG so then I > will be 1578 lbs. OUCH! > > The published DESIGN GROSS WEIGHT is 2200 lbs so this will only leave me > with 622 lbs for fuel passengers, and baggage. Umm the aircraft holds 46 > gal of fuel for 276 lbs so I only have 346 lbs left. I am 180 lbs which > means I can only take on another 166 lbs. This seems very wrong to me so I > must be doing something wrong. > > Is the published design gross weight 2200 lbs because of the 180 hp engine > they used and if so would my gross weight limit be higher since I have 260 > hp or is that limit there because of structural limitations of the aircraft? > > My 801 turned out the same damn way. When I bought my kit the firewall forward advertised weight was 440 lbs. My V-8 Ford with all the trimmings including cowling, prop etc came in right at that number. After the 801 in calif that disintergrated they now have lowered that number to 400 lbs FWF. Was I in for a surprise when I sat it on my digital scales for the first time. First, I had to add 43 lbs to the tail to get it within a acceptable CG range no matter how I load it. I did call ZAC and they said the weight for their 801 was determined by using a stripped bare bones one using a O-360 and a wooden prop. JIm Frisby and a few others planes came in close to the advertised weight but where still over. Now mine is just like yours, of course my 30+ lbs of paint, 44 lbs full panel, slightly fancy interior and a 43 lb Optima gell cell battery thats placed in the rear right in front of the bottom trap door all conspired to add up to 1425 lbs. Mine has a rather large output motor in it and that more then makes up for the added weight IMHO. After researching this I found out anyone with a motor thats not an O-360 and a wooden prop had to add weight to the tail too. 801's with a 220 Franklin need about 38 lbs, Haiko Eishlers 801 with a 6 cyl Subaru needed 40 so I am not too far out of the park. The message here is to all Zenith builders, if ya want the maximum load carrying,,, use no instruments, no paint and a light seat cushion. Ben Haas N801BH