Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:40 AM - (Richard T. Perry)
2. 05:35 AM - Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (Scott Laughlin)
3. 06:27 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 10/24/04 (Grant Corriveau)
4. 06:41 AM - Wt and balance (Grant Corriveau)
5. 08:02 AM - Re: Airworthiness - FINALLY (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
6. 09:32 AM - Re: W&B question (Leo J. Corbalis)
7. 09:53 AM - 801 weight (Keystone Engineering LLC)
8. 10:56 AM - Re: W&B question (Larry McFarland)
9. 11:56 AM - Fw: mistakes Nicholas & Roger found in my Zenair 601 HD (burylhill)
10. 12:28 PM - Re: Blind Rivets - Question/answer (Lincoln Probst)
11. 01:43 PM - Re: Blind Rivets - Question/answer (Carlos Sa)
12. 02:19 PM - Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (Kent Brown)
13. 02:29 PM - Re: Wt and balance (Kent Brown)
14. 02:44 PM - Hypothetical question sort of (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
15. 03:15 PM - Re: 701 Wing Installation (Mike Sinclair)
16. 03:56 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Larry McFarland)
17. 04:14 PM - Re: Blind Rivets - Question/answer (Leo J. Corbalis)
18. 04:31 PM - Re: 701 Gross weight (JERICKSON03E@aol.com)
19. 04:37 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
20. 05:27 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Jim Pellien)
21. 05:34 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Jim Pellien)
22. 05:41 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Larry McFarland)
23. 05:48 PM - Re: Blind Rivets - Question/answer (Larry)
24. 05:48 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Tom Zelie)
25. 06:13 PM - Re: Fw: mistakes Nicholas & Roger found in my Zenair 601 HD (cgalley)
26. 06:21 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Jeff Small)
27. 06:22 PM - 701 tires (Larry)
28. 06:41 PM - Re: W&B question (Benford2@aol.com)
29. 06:48 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Dave Alberti)
30. 07:29 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Jeffrey Glasserow)
31. 09:13 PM - CH-640 ready for inspection! (Jeff Paden)
32. 10:03 PM - Kit serial numbers.. (Gary Craze)
33. 10:21 PM - Re: Kit serial numbers.. (Jeff Paden)
34. 11:35 PM - Re: Useful Load on the Xl (xl)
Message 1
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1.16 MISSING_SUBJECT Missing Subject: header
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard T. Perry" <perryrt@hotmail.com>
>Could you tell us what equipment is needed and the
>basic techniques for "fogging" the Corrosion-X into
>closed structures? This is an interesting thread -
>more info would be appreciated.
Well...what we do is to use an air-powered pressure pump system that
actually was designed for a product called ACF-50 (which was the product we
used to use before we switched to Corrosion-X about 5 years ago.) You can
see an example of this monster at:
http://www.corrosion-control.com/Treatment.html
I don't have a clue if it's still available - or the price. Comes/came with
multiple "tips" - some just nozzle types, some long rods with holes on the
end. Any time we have panels off the aircraft, just prior to close up, we
set up the system. If you get the pressure just right, you can essentially
atomize the Corrosion-X and get it spread quite uniformly (rather than get
it in a spray). Then, when it's just hanging in the area, we put the access
panel on and go away. Also, the tips are small enough that any opening into
the structure is a way to get the "fog" in - drain holes are great, but
anything will do. Lightening holes along with the rod tips work well in wing
bays.
We also have another unit that came from the Corrosion-X company. Looks
exactly like a 30 gallon propane tank. Take a look at:
http://www.corrosionx.com/handi.htm
(the tips I'm talking about are there too.)
It's got a connection for an air hose on top and a small regulator, and an
output nozzle. Takes different tips like the ACF-50 pump (in fact, they're
interchangable). This works fine too, but it's a bit harder to lug around
the airplane, because the hose is much shorter. (Less of an issue for a
Zenith, though :
) These units run from $250-500, though (ouch!)
However, what I've also seen work is a simple spray gun. Aircraft Tool
Supply has one - I'm fairly sure that's where we got our last one
from...it's at:
http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=37CB
(or if that doesn't work, go to the home page and search for "Spray Wand")
This, by the way, is one of those tools that makes me go "Lord, I hope OSHA
doesn't see THIS!" Essentially, it's a venturi - the shop air sucks
whatever's at the end of the hose up into the stream and shoots it out the
nozzle. Really great for solvent, soap solution, Corrosion-X, what-have-you.
Your environmental laws, however, may vary in terms of what you can spray on
your ramp/hangar/yard/wetlands/dog etc :
)
Now, I'll admit - this unit doesn't make as dense of a "fog" as the
hi-dollar units - it's more of a dispersed spray pattern. But at $21....the
price-to-value ratio is pretty good.
For that matter, I'll bet that you might (haven't tried it) be able to spray
Corrosion-X through a large paint gun... I think it would clog up if you let
it sit in the gun for "a while", but if you clean it out after each use...I
think it might work. I'll have to experiment at work someday.
How does it work? Frankly, I'm not in a great position to say. We have (as
I've said before) so much corrosion here that it's hard to say "That was
stopped by using Product X" or the like. We still have stuff corrode, but it
does seem to me that the rate of corrosion is retarded by using Corrosion-X
(and the various studies back me up.)
One final comment. READ THE MSDS. Corrosion-X is farily safe stuff, but we
typically use breathing protection similar to painting when applying this
stuff (half-mask respirators with HEPA/organic cartridges) - not strictly
required (see section 10 of the MSDS), but never a bad idea....and of course
we're wearing safety glasses, too.
Good luck, Brandon!
Regards,
Richard T. Perry perryrt@hotmail.com
"Fraser, there's a guy on my corner who asks me every
morning if I've seen God; do you really think he
expects me to point Him out?"
"Well, you know, Ray, if you did, perhaps he'd stop
asking."
Ray Vecchio and Benton Fraser, "Hawk and a Handsaw", Due_South
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Michel and others:
My "Real" XL plans only show a single 3/16th plate for the nose fork. I may
beef this up based on your comments. Thanks for the tip.
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 10/24/04 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" <jeffpaden@madbbs.com>
>
> Can any one on this list answer a few questions for me about Weight and
> Balance?
>
> First off all, when I did my W&B on my CH-640 I found that the nose is VERY
> heavy and the CG is way out of forward limit.
Where is the battery located? What else can you move to the rear to correct
the balance? You say the cg if forward -- but is this measured empty or
with a 'typcial' load on board? Most regs only require the CofG to be in the
envelope for FLIGHT and you will of course always have one pilot on board,
some fuel, etc.... Did you make a spreadsheet that allows you to try various
load configs to see where the c of g moves to?
> The published DESIGN GROSS WEIGHT is 2200 lbs
Check with Zenith ... is there room structurally to increase the c of g
somewhat at the expense of maneuvering G-loads? This is done for may models
of production aircraft - a 'normal' and a 'utility' category is specified in
the c of g data.
> Umm the aircraft holds 46
> gal of fuel for 276 lbs
It is not unusual in high performance aircraft to have to choose between
fuel on board vs. payload. That is why, for example, the Cherokee warriors
and others, have 'tabs' in the fuel tanks to give a quick reference to 'half
fuel' load etc... If you want to carry four adults you will have to shorten
your stage lengths to a couple hours... or less?
>
> Is the published design gross weight 2200 lbs because of the 180 hp engine
> they used and if so would my gross weight limit be higher since I have 260
> hp or is that limit there because of structural limitations of the aircraft?
Only the designer can give you guidance on that and what the structure is
'stressed' for.
Good luck,
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> The message here
> is to all Zenith builders, if ya want the maximum load carrying,,, use no
> instruments, no paint and a light seat cushion.
>
> Ben Haas N801BH
>
That's a good thing to remember for ANY aircraft. NOTHING comes for free!
Every little 'improvement', gadget, instrument, add-on, modification, etc...
probably will CUT DOWN your useful load, increase your fuelburn (at a
desierd cruise speed) or conversely, slow down your cruise speed at a
particular power setting, decrease your climbout performance, etc. etc...
It's probably a good idea to start putting your best esitmated weights into
a c of g spreadsheet early on in the building process. This not only warns
you of the need to place the battery further aft or fwd, etc.. but it lets
you play with things like payload vs. fuel load vs. range, etc. to see how
it fits your intended missions.
American Airlines from time to time, posts the amount of fuel they figure
they save each year by not painting their fuselages.... fwiw. A typical
airliner paint job costs hundreds of pounds of payload....
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 5
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| Subject: | Airworthiness - FINALLY |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Nice one Andrew!
Now before the first flight, take a step back and go through the whole
thing in your mind, particularly what are you going to do in all the
possible emergencies.
Know all your systems!!
Hopefully it will be smooooooth...:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
SanClemente
Subject: Zenith-List: Airworthiness - FINALLY
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
--> <ansancle@townisp.com>
I finally had my inspection and received my airworthiness certificate
after about 1 1/2 months of paperwork nightmare. First flight will be
next week, Ill report results (hopefully positive) after the fact.
Some advice for those of you nearing completion. When they say to
start the paperwork 6 months in advance - DO IT. Make sure your
registration is completed long before you are and ensure you have the
information listed as your local FSDO wants it.
Anyways, hard to believe after 10 years its about to fly....
- Andy
601 HDS
Stratus Subaru
Ram Heads
DO NOT ARCHIVE
==
==
==
==
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: W&B question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
The LARGE PRINT GIVITH and the small print stickith a wire brush up thy nose
(This is the FIRST LAW of reading specifications)
Happy Landings
Leo Corbalis
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <Benford2@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: W&B question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 10/24/2004 6:39:50 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> jeffpaden@madbbs.com writes:
>
>
> >
> > Can any one on this list answer a few questions for me about Weight and
> > Balance?
> >
> > First off all, when I did my W&B on my CH-640 I found that the nose is
VERY
> > heavy and the CG is way out of forward limit.
> >
> > Ok, I expected that since I installed a 260 HP engine and I can correct
this
> > by adding weight to the tail of the aircraft.
> >
> > However, the published empty weight of the aircraft is 1147 lbs. Mine
is
> > 1478 lbs and I need to add 100 lbs to the tail to correct the CG so then
I
> > will be 1578 lbs. OUCH!
> >
> > The published DESIGN GROSS WEIGHT is 2200 lbs so this will only leave me
> > with 622 lbs for fuel passengers, and baggage. Umm the aircraft holds
46
> > gal of fuel for 276 lbs so I only have 346 lbs left. I am 180 lbs which
> > means I can only take on another 166 lbs. This seems very wrong to me
so I
> > must be doing something wrong.
> >
> > Is the published design gross weight 2200 lbs because of the 180 hp
engine
> > they used and if so would my gross weight limit be higher since I have
260
> > hp or is that limit there because of structural limitations of the
aircraft?
> >
> >
>
> My 801 turned out the same damn way. When I bought my kit the firewall
> forward advertised weight was 440 lbs. My V-8 Ford with all the trimmings
including
> cowling, prop etc came in right at that number. After the 801 in calif
that
> disintergrated they now have lowered that number to 400 lbs FWF. Was I in
for a
> surprise when I sat it on my digital scales for the first time. First, I
had
> to add 43 lbs to the tail to get it within a acceptable CG range no matter
how
> I load it. I did call ZAC and they said the weight for their 801 was
> determined by using a stripped bare bones one using a O-360 and a wooden
prop. JIm
> Frisby and a few others planes came in close to the advertised weight but
where
> still over. Now mine is just like yours, of course my 30+ lbs of paint, 44
lbs
> full panel, slightly fancy interior and a 43 lb Optima gell cell battery
thats
> placed in the rear right in front of the bottom trap door all conspired to
add
> up to 1425 lbs. Mine has a rather large output motor in it and that more
then
> makes up for the added weight IMHO. After researching this I found out
anyone
> with a motor thats not an O-360 and a wooden prop had to add weight to the
> tail too. 801's with a 220 Franklin need about 38 lbs, Haiko Eishlers 801
with a
> 6 cyl Subaru needed 40 so I am not too far out of the park. The message
here
> is to all Zenith builders, if ya want the maximum load carrying,,, use no
> instruments, no paint and a light seat cushion.
>
> Ben Haas N801BH
>
>
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Keystone Engineering LLC <keystone@gci.net>
N801BW has an O-360 with a metal Sensenich prop. My insulation consists of long
underwear, my sound proofing is active noise canceling, the panel is minimum
VFR, light weight battery, light weight starter, light weight alternator, my
light weight front seats came out a Subaru, the back seat is padded with a piece
of foam and I may add some lip stick later so it does not look so plain. When
I weighed 801BW I came in at 1175 lbs. I figure I'm about 1200 lbs with all
the stuff I have added since I weighed it. That still allows a useful load
of 1000 lbs!!!! The web site assumes a 1150 lbs empty weight. With a wood
prop and no creature comforts I may have been able to get close. I did not have
to add any weight to the tail. I have still succeeded in over loading it and
getting out of CG rearward several times.
I have not wished for more power! I actually am using a cruise prop (2350 rpm
at rotation). My performance is very close to ZAC advertisements. I have thought
about flattening the prop but how much shorter do I need to get out? The
100 mph cruise at 75% power is what I expected.
I have a lot of time behind Lycoming engines! They have always gotten me home!
The good news is they are 1940's technology the bad news is they are 1940' technology!
Bill Wilcox
N801BW
140 hrs
Installing prop spinner. Damn there is another 2 pounds! (do I need it???)
Valdez, AK
>My 801 turned out the same damn way. When I bought my kit the firewall
>forward advertised weight was 440 lbs. My V-8 Ford with all the trimmings including
>cowling, prop etc came in right at that number. After the 801 in calif that
>disintegrated they now have lowered that number to 400 lbs FWF. Was I in for a
>surprise when I sat it on my digital scales for the first time. First, I had
.to add 43 lbs to the tail to get it within a acceptable CG range no matter how
>I load it. I did call ZAC and they said the weight for their 801 was
>determined by using a stripped bare bones one using a O-360 and a wooden prop.
>Jim
>Frisby and a few others planes came in close to the advertised weight but where
>still over. Now mine is just like yours, of course my 30+ lbs of paint, 44 lbs
>full panel, slightly fancy interior and a 43 lb Optima gell cell battery thats
>placed in the rear right in front of the bottom trap door all conspired to add
>up to 1425 lbs. Mine has a rather large output motor in it and that more then
>makes up for the added weight IMHO. After researching this I found out anyone
>with a motor thats not an O-360 and a wooden prop had to add weight to the
>tail too. 801's with a 220 Franklin need about 38 lbs, Haiko Eishlers 801 with
>a
>6 cyl Subaru needed 40 so I am not too far out of the park. The message here
>is to all Zenith builders, if ya want the maximum load carrying,,, use no
>instruments, no paint and a light seat cushion.
>Ben Haas N801BH
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: W&B question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
On an aside note, Some years ago our Chapter President "went in" because he
said his 220 lb body weight "should" counter-balance the 160 hp he'd hung on
his Miniplane. The problem of "mass" bit him when he did a roll, found
himself out of control and became a lawn dart. This 260 engine is probably
the same for one who'd do a stall with it or slow for convective turbulence.
A long-balanced mass to correct an envelope of this magnitude creates a
moment that the pilot cannot be sure there's effective counter-force in
control surfaces, especially at slower airspeeds.
Larry McFarland
Do not archive
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: W&B question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis"
> <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
>
> The LARGE PRINT GIVITH and the small print stickith a wire brush up thy
> nose
> (This is the FIRST LAW of reading specifications)
> Happy Landings
> Leo Corbalis
> do not archive
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: W&B question
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>> > First off all, when I did my W&B on my CH-640 I found that the nose is
> VERY
>> > heavy and the CG is way out of forward limit.
>> >
>> > Ok, I expected that since I installed a 260 HP engine and I can correct
> this
>> > by adding weight to the tail of the aircraft.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Fw: mistakes Nicholas & Roger found in my Zenair 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "burylhill" <bus@commspeed.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: burylhill
Subject: mistakes Nicholas & Roger found in my Zenair 601 HD
1. Elevator 14deg. up travel & 14 deg. down. Needs to be 27 deg. up and 27 deg.
down. Roger cut 2 in.+ out of center arm rest to facilitate.
2. Rudder 10 mm max play at top. I now have 5 mm play. need to rebuild top bolt
attachment plates.
3. Safety wire hose clamps. Roger has seen them back off.
4.Throw plates like part # 6-V-15-S on aileron torque tube need to be .40 thick.
They were when measured.
5.Square elevator. I need to phone Roger to hear what he meant?
6. Add a washer under bolt or shorter bolt under instrument panel up forward at
the longeron and engine mount.Hard to get to get a wrench on it. Luckily I removed
my instrument panel cover and got a shorter bolt on. 2 hrs. work.
7. Use a lock nut at the rear wing attach point bolt in addition to the nut plate
so it won't vibrate out. At part # 6-V-7-7
8. Add washers to four forward bolts under fuselage back of the front nose gear
so just three threads are showing.
9. Add 3 L angles under fuselage top skin over baggage compartment to stiffen
turtle deck when getting in & out of cockpit.
10. Cut hinge pins 1/4 in at each end and safety wire through drilled hinge so
they can't back out.
11. Detach heater hose and aluminum tape over holes on heat muff until winter.
Min chance of co2 for test flight,
12. Rotate water hose elbow off back of the engine to have smoother water flow.
13. Canopy arms could use 1/2 in. weather seal to slow air flow under forward opening
canopy arms so it doesn't come into cockpit.
14. Put a pop-rivet in open rivet hole under canopy arm on pilot side of airplane.
oops
15. Re rivet static discharge wick on left wing tip. where it had pulled loose
do to my hitting it. We get a lot of static build up here in dry Arizona. Just
ask my wife's cats.
16. Drill, de bur and rivet 2nd. rivet line under right wing. How did I miss that?
So that it looks like left wing & plans.
17. On instrument panel, exchange air speed indicator with Nav Aid wing leveler
so air speed can be easier to see by a tall pilot.
18. Under wing joining cover strip, cut ends of cotter pins in castle nuts shorter
so when bent down they don't hit and look professional.
19. Play of one inch in the stick before the ailerons move. I have taken the aileron
torque tube out and took it to a machinist who will make a new steel bushing
part # 6-V-13-3 with tighter fit so hopefully 1/32 in play x 12 in .control
stick quicker response.
20. Adjust Rotax 912-S idle to 1800 RPM in lieu of 1200 for less ware on prop reduction
gears. less back lash.
21.Removed large 3in,x 1/2 bolt stuck in the steering mechanism. Bolt was used
to get nose gear bungee on and it was so big I thought I would notice later and
remove it Wrong. Roger caught it before test flight. and after I had taxied
20 hrs,+ with no problem.
22. Roger found a wooden parking wedge in passenger side wing rib lightning hole.
gees.
23.Change oil to Mobil 1 MX4T Motorcycle oil. non foaming. According to Phil Lockwood
at the Rotax maintenance seminar at Copperstate the oil companies have
taken phosphors out of the oils so the go 125,000 miles on the catalytic converters.
But they now foam in the Rotax causing most of the problems we have here
in the states, that they don't have elsewhere.
24. Turning radius. check it. Nicholas wasn;t able to turn the 601 HD around between
the hangar row. Its pretty good, but not that good.
25. Ignition A drops 400 RPM. flowed plug? over filled foaming oil? choke out a
little? Don;t know yet working on it.
26. Engine only turning 4900 RPM on climb out with full throttle. 250FPM.climb
@ 6000 ft. density altitude. I have a ground adjustable prop set at 16 degrees.
I will reset it to 14 deg. Cruse should be 5500 RPM at sea level. I did get
5200 RPM on static test with tail tied down @ 5000 field density altitude. We
will see.
27. Added gas to 2nd. tank just in case 1st leading edge tank didn't flow. no hearer
tank in my plane.
28. Added oil, which wasn't needed as plane had sat for three weeks and oil was
in engine sump and showed only 1/2 way up dip stick in the reservoir. But was
full.
29. Add two more 3/8In bolts to top of engine mount at firewall like plans. Shim
as needed before tightening so as not to crack welds.
30. I added 2 in.of plastic Delrin nylon shims on top of nose gear fork 6L1-3 to
raise the longeron angle to the ground 1
degree above level. The bungee had sagged 1 in. over two years. The control stick
had to be pulled unconfortly far back to get rotation to lift off. Then pushed
forward to prevent stall. On landing the opposite happened. I would seek the
mains on touch down and the nose would thump down no mater how much back stick
was held. Disconcerting for my rusty old flying ability even dangerous. Roger
& Nicholas said it flew fine. ( info gained from Test Flying Homebuilt Aircraft
by Vaughan Askue Iowa State University Press} This is a partial solution.
Mr. Askue says the most obvious solution is to move the main gear forward.
Hope my errors can help others from making the same mistakes. Buryl Hill Zenair
601 HD 912S bus@commspeed.net
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Blind Rivets - Question/answer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Lincoln Probst <elprobst@yahoo.com>
I've been lurking about on this list for a few months, since I've decided to go
with
the 601XL... haven't purchased yet as I have to buy a house first.(offer goes in
today, in the heart of Toronto).
Questions I have:
Would new rivet designs new since 1985 be "better"?
Are there any parts that would be especially nice made out of titanium? Maybe
a
601XL-Ti model. ;-)
Has anyone had any experience with a cordless electric rivet gun/installer?
I think about this stuff and then I always seem to go back to: if what works works,
then why would one ever change it? Aluminum works fine. The Avdel rivets work
fine. Why change what works? So I probably won't and stick to the plans as much
as
possible.
------ my long winded commentary below:
So while researching, I was looking at rivets and I think new rivet designs have
come out since Heintz wrote his article about the rivets. It is the balance
between, change being bad because the current design is proven and a newer design
being stronger or better for some reason... however some of the All-aluminum rivets
seemed interesting(stem is also of alumninum) and those where the stem doesn't
break
low, but instead remains attached to be cut off even with the head, giving much
higher shear strength. I also don't understand why not buy "domed" rivets instead
of modifying the head to create a dome...
http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-86-12.html
I also wondered if anyone has the "TX2000 Battery Powered Handtool" rivetor. It
is
similar to a cordless drill, but sets rivets instead.(takes about 2seconds per).
ie
no air-compressor needed. And so I imagine would be quite quiet not to mention
no
cords or air-hose. I'm trying to get a price for it... have to go through a
distributor and is rather a hassle.
http://www.avdel.textron.com/index.htm?products/installation/tx2000.htm
Lastly Heintz has another article that may be dated[Looks like from Dec, 1985],
saying that titanium is too expensive to be considered. Granted, it is still quite
expensive, but purhaps should now be considered given its strength and light weight
and corrosion resistance? Anyway, I suppose the whole point of the kit is not
to
design the plane ourselves... I've worked a little with Titanium and always amazes
me how light and strong it is everytime I pick a piece up.[landing gear, firewall
and structural spars seem to get the most load..."L"-angles could be a good place
for it or anywhere steel is used could easily be replaced by titanium for a weight
savings, strength and cost increase...] Trying to get a price on this too... again
is all by quote as well so is a bit of a hassle.
http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-86-3.html
Thanks.
Lincoln
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Blind Rivets - Question/answer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Lincoln, one thing I can tell you: I called Textron about their tool. I don't recall
the price
right now, but it was *very* expensive, for industrial use.
As for other kinds of rivets, they tend to be much more expensive.
Titanium: no idea how easy it is to work with, "foundability", and such, all aspects
to consider.
Hope you enjoy the journey
Carlos
Montreal, Canada
CH601-HD, plans
--- Lincoln Probst <elprobst@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Lincoln Probst <elprobst@yahoo.com>
>
> I've been lurking about on this list for a few months, since I've decided to
go with
> the 601XL... haven't purchased yet as I have to buy a house first.(offer goes
in
> today, in the heart of Toronto).
>
> Questions I have:
> Would new rivet designs new since 1985 be "better"?
> Are there any parts that would be especially nice made out of titanium? Maybe
a
> 601XL-Ti model. ;-)
> Has anyone had any experience with a cordless electric rivet gun/installer?
>
> I think about this stuff and then I always seem to go back to: if what works
works,
> then why would one ever change it? Aluminum works fine. The Avdel rivets work
> fine. Why change what works? So I probably won't and stick to the plans as
much as
> possible.
Message 12
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| Subject: | CH601XL nose wheel fork |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" <kentbrown@verizon.net>
The HDS definitely has the doubler on the front fork. Since the XL is
basically the same firewall forward, weight, and location of main gear (aft
of firewall), it looks like the XL plans are suspect. IMHO
Kent
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Laughlin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL nose wheel fork
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
<cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Michel and others:
My "Real" XL plans only show a single 3/16th plate for the nose fork. I may
beef this up based on your comments. Thanks for the tip.
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" <kentbrown@verizon.net>
As a 601 kinda guy, my opinion is certainly less than expert on the 640, but
it seems to me that the root cause of this problem is an engine too big for
the aircraft. With a smaller engine, the W&B improves, and the extra weight
from the "goodies" may not be as much of an issue. My cent-and-a-half.
Kent
Message 14
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| Subject: | Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max
gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be
within the new LSA rules.
Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while
building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a
E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though.
So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot?
Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
what the stall speed was until I flew it.
Any thoughts?
Frank
601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:)
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: 701 Wing Installation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
With the wings pinned through an undersize hole at the front attach points I
positioned the wings so that the trailing edges were in a straight line and
the distance from the rear of the wing tips to the rear of the fuselage was
the same on both sides. I actually had to grind off about 1/4" off the ends of
7V6-1 & 7V4-3 (rear spar ends) to be able to get the wing tips far enough aft
(required pulling the wings loose from the fuselage several times to grind and
then refit, but with them suspended from the hangar ceiling was no real chore
for even just one person). At that point the rear attach point can be drilled
and the forward holes taken out full size. To set the 75mm. dihedral I just
stretched a line from tip to tip and measured the 75mm. at the #1 rib on both
wings. Then cut and fit the struts. Was actually a whole lot easier to do than
I had expected. Just make sure you don't have the 7V9-3 skins in place until
the wings have been rigged. You will need to be able to access the attach
points from the top and will be able to drill the attach points a whole lot
easier.
Jimmy Parker wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jimmy Parker <jwestie1@juno.com>
>
> Thanks for the reply Mike.
> What and where did you do any measurements?
>
> Jim
> 5098 701
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Frank,
I asssume you're 601 Airworthiness Cert and placard are Experimental,
so I doubt you've got the flexibility to change the craft from that to SLA
type.
But, time changes everything, so when the flurry of business generated
by the new classification dies down, there'll be a cry to allow the SLA
stall
speed to include aircraft nearest the boundaries of SLA weight etc, to be
included to sell more aircraft. The government suffers inflexibility, but
with a slow
steady pull from the public, I think it'll eventually happen.
One candidate, if asked about this, would undoubtedly promise to see to it
that it happened.
( Bad joke ;)
Larry McFarland
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max
> gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be
> within the new LSA rules.
>
> Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while
> building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a
> E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though.
>
> So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot?
>
> Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
> what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
> what the stall speed was until I flew it.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Frank
>
> 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:)
>
>
>
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: Blind Rivets - Question/answer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
> I bought some real avex domed rivets ONCE ! When you try to drill one
out, you hit the stem and the bit is deflected off onto your airplane's nice
smooth skin. The regular A4 or A5 will lose their heads if you gently drill
with a 30 or 21 bit and then you can punch the rest out without enlarging
the hole.
Leo Corbalis
archive
> ------ my long winded commentary below:
> So while researching, I was looking at rivets and I think new rivet
designs have
> come out since Heintz wrote his article about the rivets. It is the
balance
> between, change being bad because the current design is proven and a newer
design
> being stronger or better for some reason... however some of the
All-aluminum rivets
> seemed interesting(stem is also of alumninum) and those where the stem
doesn't break
> low, but instead remains attached to be cut off even with the head, giving
much
> higher shear strength. I also don't understand why not buy "domed" rivets
instead
> of modifying the head to create a dome...
> http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-86-12.html
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: 701 Gross weight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
In a message dated 10/24/2004 3:20:10 PM Central Daylight Time,
hartist1@cox.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
John Birgiolas wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Birgiolas"
<johnbirgiolas@hotmail.com>
>
>Having completed the 701 it's time to do the paperwork. Is there a general
consensus as to listing of the gross weight. I was thinking of registering my
gross at 1200 lbs to stay under the Canadian Advanced Ultralight weight
category. I am registered as an amateur built. With an empty weight of 680
lbs.(912s), I need some wiggle room. Or does the 701 fly poorly over gross, and
should I keep the 1100lb. gross? Thanks John B
>
>
>
>
I think you will find that Zenith and Czech both list 1250 if planning
on floats
Hal
ThePlaneFolks.Net
CH701 VSTOL / 3300
Looks like a good way to go for the 701. Has anyone used the 1250 MGW for
registering as Ex Amateur built?
How to write it up?
How to deal with the G load numbers?
Jerry
Message 19
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| Subject: | Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Thanks Larry,
Your answer would make sense except for the fact that you can fly a
number of certified airplanes under LSA rules....Presumably they are not
"certificated" as LSA so why would an "experimental" not be allowed fly
under LSA?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Frank,
I asssume you're 601 Airworthiness Cert and placard are Experimental, so
I doubt you've got the flexibility to change the craft from that to SLA
type.
But, time changes everything, so when the flurry of business generated
by the new classification dies down, there'll be a cry to allow the SLA
stall
speed to include aircraft nearest the boundaries of SLA weight etc, to
be included to sell more aircraft. The government suffers
inflexibility, but
with a slow
steady pull from the public, I think it'll eventually happen.
One candidate, if asked about this, would undoubtedly promise to see to
it
that it happened.
( Bad joke ;)
Larry McFarland
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max
> gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be
> within the new LSA rules.
>
> Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while
> building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a
> E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though.
>
> So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot?
>
> Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
> what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
> what the stall speed was until I flew it.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Frank
>
> 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:)
>
>
>
==
==
==
==
Message 20
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| Subject: | Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
Frank,
Stall Speed is one of the performance standards for it to make it into
the Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) envelope. The others are
Maximum Take-off Weight not to exceed 1320 lbs. Also a maximum power
continuous cruise speed not exceeding 120 kts (138 mph) CAS.
If you meet all of the above performance standards then follow the
following steps which can be found at www.eaa.org in their Sport Pilot
section:
========================================================================
QUESTION: What is the process of converting an existing unregistered
aircraft to Experimental Light-Sport Aircraft?
ANSWER: Although the FAA is not yet ready to support the process, it
will be as follows:
1. Apply for an N-Number (Forms expected to be released in October,
2004)
2. Prepare a weight and balance report for your aircraft
3. Install an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) on all two-seat
airplanes (powered parachutes and weight-shift not required);
single-seat is optional
4. Prepare your aircraft for inspection
5. Make an appointment with a FAA airworthiness inspector or a
designated airworthiness representative (DAR).
6. Have your aircraft inspected.
========================================================================
=
Jim Pellien
President
Mid-Atlantic Region
SportsPlanes.com
703-851-9375
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max
gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be
within the new LSA rules.
Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while
building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a
E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though.
So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot?
Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
what the stall speed was until I flew it.
Any thoughts?
Frank
601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:)
==
==
==
==
Message 21
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| Subject: | Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
Frank,
In my previous answer I assumed (wrongly) that your aircraft had never
been certificated at all. If it is now certificated as an experimental,
and it fits into the performance envelope I mentioned in my previous
message (1320 lbs MGTOW, less than 51 mph stall speed clean, and less
than 138 mph continuous maximum cruise speed) then a sport pilot can fly
your aircraft after being checked out in it by a flight instructor
(either a sport flight instructor or a CFI) and having received an
endorsement in his/her logbook.
Its that easy. However, if any of the above performance parameters are
outside the Light Sport Performance envelope when you certified and
registered it, then it cannot be flown by a Sport Pilot.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
Thanks Larry,
Your answer would make sense except for the fact that you can fly a
number of certified airplanes under LSA rules....Presumably they are not
"certificated" as LSA so why would an "experimental" not be allowed fly
under LSA?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Frank,
I asssume you're 601 Airworthiness Cert and placard are Experimental, so
I doubt you've got the flexibility to change the craft from that to SLA
type.
But, time changes everything, so when the flurry of business generated
by the new classification dies down, there'll be a cry to allow the SLA
stall
speed to include aircraft nearest the boundaries of SLA weight etc, to
be included to sell more aircraft. The government suffers
inflexibility, but
with a slow
steady pull from the public, I think it'll eventually happen.
One candidate, if asked about this, would undoubtedly promise to see to
it
that it happened.
( Bad joke ;)
Larry McFarland
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max
> gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be
> within the new LSA rules.
>
> Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while
> building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a
> E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though.
>
> So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot?
>
> Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
> what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
> what the stall speed was until I flew it.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Frank
>
> 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:)
>
>
>
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Frank,
If I found out tomorrow, (nice idea)
my HDS performed within the criteria, I don't think it'd be allowed to be in
SLA because it's
a type that doesn't normally meet that description. They'd consider the
craft modified to meet
the criteria or an established design that is very close. They don't want
to get into the business of
being required to do new airworthiness inspections to re-establish SLA
candidates.
I think they've named all the established exp. cert. and light types as in
or out of SLA.
Otherwise interim testing on an individual basis to prove SLA performance
capability would
become a full time growing nightmare for the FAA.
More likely, being close will bring economic pressure on the Fed to expand
on, but not change the rules
to include others and our HDS type which is within an immeasurable tolerence
of the SLA stall speed.
Much less expensive for govenment.
Larry
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Thanks Larry,
>
> Your answer would make sense except for the fact that you can fly a
> number of certified airplanes under LSA rules....Presumably they are not
> "certificated" as LSA so why would an "experimental" not be allowed fly
> under LSA?
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
> McFarland
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
> --> <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
> Frank,
> I asssume you're 601 Airworthiness Cert and placard are Experimental, so
> I doubt you've got the flexibility to change the craft from that to SLA
> type.
> But, time changes everything, so when the flurry of business generated
> by the new classification dies down, there'll be a cry to allow the SLA
> stall
> speed to include aircraft nearest the boundaries of SLA weight etc, to
> be included to sell more aircraft. The government suffers
> inflexibility, but
> with a slow
> steady pull from the public, I think it'll eventually happen.
>
> One candidate, if asked about this, would undoubtedly promise to see to
> it
> that it happened.
> ( Bad joke ;)
>
> Larry McFarland
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
>> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>>
>> So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max
>
>> gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be
>> within the new LSA rules.
>>
>> Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while
>> building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a
>> E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though.
>>
>> So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot?
>>
>> Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
>> what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
>> what the stall speed was until I flew it.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Blind Rivets - Question/answer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm@isp.com>
It works best if you use a small drift and punch the stem out first, then
drill. Ask Jon Croke, he is the expert at drilling out rivets. Larry
N1345L
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo J. Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Blind Rivets - Question/answer
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis"
<leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
>
> > I bought some real avex domed rivets ONCE ! When you try to drill one
> out, you hit the stem and the bit is deflected off onto your airplane's
nice
> smooth skin. The regular A4 or A5 will lose their heads if you gently
drill
> with a 30 or 21 bit and then you can punch the rest out without enlarging
> the hole.
>
> Leo Corbalis
> archive
>
> > ------ my long winded commentary below:
> > So while researching, I was looking at rivets and I think new rivet
> designs have
> > come out since Heintz wrote his article about the rivets. It is the
> balance
> > between, change being bad because the current design is proven and a
newer
> design
> > being stronger or better for some reason... however some of the
> All-aluminum rivets
> > seemed interesting(stem is also of alumninum) and those where the stem
> doesn't break
> > low, but instead remains attached to be cut off even with the head,
giving
> much
> > higher shear strength. I also don't understand why not buy "domed"
rivets
> instead
> > of modifying the head to create a dome...
> > http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-86-12.html
> >
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tom Zelie" <tzelie@adelphia.net>
If your 601 has an airworthiness certificate in the Experimental category
but meets the LSA criteria then there is no problem flying it as a Sport
Pilot. No need to change to E-LSA.
The E-LSA aircraft can be anywhere up to 99% factory built. Whenever a plane
meets the experimental 51% rule you should always register it in the
Experimental category. There are more benefits to such a registration to the
original builder.
A person flying as "Sport Pilot" is not required to fly an LSA or E-LSA
aircraft. He only needs to fly an aircraft that meets the parameters of LSA.
Tom Zelie
N429SX
Tech Counselor #4831
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
> <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
> Frank,
> I asssume you're 601 Airworthiness Cert and placard are Experimental,
> so I doubt you've got the flexibility to change the craft from that to SLA
> type.
> But, time changes everything, so when the flurry of business generated
> by the new classification dies down, there'll be a cry to allow the SLA
> stall
> speed to include aircraft nearest the boundaries of SLA weight etc, to be
> included to sell more aircraft. The government suffers inflexibility, but
> with a slow
> steady pull from the public, I think it'll eventually happen.
>
> One candidate, if asked about this, would undoubtedly promise to see to it
> that it happened.
> ( Bad joke ;)
>
> Larry McFarland
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
>> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>>
>> So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max
>> gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be
>> within the new LSA rules.
>>
>> Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while
>> building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a
>> E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though.
>>
>> So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot?
>>
>> Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
>> what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
>> what the stall speed was until I flew it.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: mistakes Nicholas & Roger found in my Zenair 601 |
HD
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
If you built it according to the plans, then I would check the weight and
balance before messing with the landing gear.
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "burylhill" <bus@commspeed.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: mistakes Nicholas & Roger found in my Zenair 601
HD
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "burylhill" <bus@commspeed.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: burylhill
> To: clojan@sbcglobal.net
> Subject: mistakes Nicholas & Roger found in my Zenair 601 HD
>
>
> 1. Elevator 14deg. up travel & 14 deg. down. Needs to be 27 deg. up and 27
deg. down. Roger cut 2 in.+ out of center arm rest to facilitate.
>
> 2. Rudder 10 mm max play at top. I now have 5 mm play. need to rebuild top
bolt attachment plates.
>
> 3. Safety wire hose clamps. Roger has seen them back off.
>
> 4.Throw plates like part # 6-V-15-S on aileron torque tube need to be .40
thick. They were when measured.
>
> 5.Square elevator. I need to phone Roger to hear what he meant?
>
> 6. Add a washer under bolt or shorter bolt under instrument panel up
forward at the longeron and engine mount.Hard to get to get a wrench on it.
Luckily I removed my instrument panel cover and got a shorter bolt on. 2
hrs. work.
>
> 7. Use a lock nut at the rear wing attach point bolt in addition to the
nut plate so it won't vibrate out. At part # 6-V-7-7
>
> 8. Add washers to four forward bolts under fuselage back of the front
nose gear so just three threads are showing.
>
> 9. Add 3 L angles under fuselage top skin over baggage compartment to
stiffen turtle deck when getting in & out of cockpit.
>
> 10. Cut hinge pins 1/4 in at each end and safety wire through drilled
hinge so they can't back out.
>
> 11. Detach heater hose and aluminum tape over holes on heat muff until
winter. Min chance of co2 for test flight,
>
> 12. Rotate water hose elbow off back of the engine to have smoother water
flow.
>
> 13. Canopy arms could use 1/2 in. weather seal to slow air flow under
forward opening canopy arms so it doesn't come into cockpit.
>
> 14. Put a pop-rivet in open rivet hole under canopy arm on pilot side of
airplane. oops
>
> 15. Re rivet static discharge wick on left wing tip. where it had pulled
loose do to my hitting it. We get a lot of static build up here in dry
Arizona. Just ask my wife's cats.
>
> 16. Drill, de bur and rivet 2nd. rivet line under right wing. How did I
miss that? So that it looks like left wing & plans.
>
> 17. On instrument panel, exchange air speed indicator with Nav Aid wing
leveler so air speed can be easier to see by a tall pilot.
>
> 18. Under wing joining cover strip, cut ends of cotter pins in castle nuts
shorter so when bent down they don't hit and look professional.
>
> 19. Play of one inch in the stick before the ailerons move. I have taken
the aileron torque tube out and took it to a machinist who will make a new
steel bushing part # 6-V-13-3 with tighter fit so hopefully 1/32 in play x
12 in .control stick quicker response.
>
> 20. Adjust Rotax 912-S idle to 1800 RPM in lieu of 1200 for less ware on
prop reduction gears. less back lash.
>
> 21.Removed large 3in,x 1/2 bolt stuck in the steering mechanism. Bolt was
used to get nose gear bungee on and it was so big I thought I would notice
later and remove it Wrong. Roger caught it before test flight. and after I
had taxied 20 hrs,+ with no problem.
>
> 22. Roger found a wooden parking wedge in passenger side wing rib
lightning hole. gees.
>
> 23.Change oil to Mobil 1 MX4T Motorcycle oil. non foaming. According to
Phil Lockwood at the Rotax maintenance seminar at Copperstate the oil
companies have taken phosphors out of the oils so the go 125,000 miles on
the catalytic converters. But they now foam in the Rotax causing most of the
problems we have here in the states, that they don't have elsewhere.
>
> 24. Turning radius. check it. Nicholas wasn;t able to turn the 601 HD
around between the hangar row. Its pretty good, but not that good.
>
> 25. Ignition A drops 400 RPM. flowed plug? over filled foaming oil? choke
out a little? Don;t know yet working on it.
>
> 26. Engine only turning 4900 RPM on climb out with full throttle.
250FPM.climb @ 6000 ft. density altitude. I have a ground adjustable prop
set at 16 degrees. I will reset it to 14 deg. Cruse should be 5500 RPM at
sea level. I did get 5200 RPM on static test with tail tied down @ 5000
field density altitude. We will see.
>
> 27. Added gas to 2nd. tank just in case 1st leading edge tank didn't flow.
no hearer tank in my plane.
>
> 28. Added oil, which wasn't needed as plane had sat for three weeks and
oil was in engine sump and showed only 1/2 way up dip stick in the
reservoir. But was full.
>
> 29. Add two more 3/8In bolts to top of engine mount at firewall like
plans. Shim as needed before tightening so as not to crack welds.
>
> 30. I added 2 in.of plastic Delrin nylon shims on top of nose gear fork
6L1-3 to raise the longeron angle to the ground 1
> degree above level. The bungee had sagged 1 in. over two years. The
control stick had to be pulled unconfortly far back to get rotation to lift
off. Then pushed forward to prevent stall. On landing the opposite happened.
I would seek the mains on touch down and the nose would thump down no mater
how much back stick was held. Disconcerting for my rusty old flying ability
even dangerous. Roger & Nicholas said it flew fine. ( info gained from Test
Flying Homebuilt Aircraft by Vaughan Askue Iowa State University Press} This
is a partial solution. Mr. Askue says the most obvious solution is to move
the main gear forward.
>
> Hope my errors can help others from making the same mistakes. Buryl Hill
Zenair 601 HD 912S bus@commspeed.net
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
>Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
>what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
>what the stall speed was until I flew it.
Frankster,
YOU made an entry in your aircraft log after the 40 hours to the effect that you
found the a/c controllable through a various range of speeds and at a certain
gross. That is YOUR stall speed - for YOUR a/c. What did you put in the a/c
log?
Off the subject: I just can't believe that so many of you builders (or future builders)
who are not the designer of the Zenith line of aircraft want to placard
them at gross weights that are grossly over the design limits. The 701 was
just increased to 1100 by Chris a few years ago and now you're talking about
1250 (float planes react differently, wish I were knowledgeable of them)! Remember,
if you placard it at this gross you must test it at those limits. The
elevator authority at 1250 just might be very marginal...and to complicate the
equation you're asking us! Ask the designer.
http://www.acomodata.com/zenair701/flying.htm excellent article on flying the 701.
If you substitute a 540 series engine for the 320 or 360 series that the design
calls for, why are you surprised that the a/c is heavy and out of W&B range?
Titanium? I won't even go there. Cherrymax rivets; hey, if you got the money...
Unless you're the designer resist the urge to improve these tested designs. (Yes,
I know they're experimental, however, you have a duty to your safety and the
safety of all you take as future passengers.)
tailwinds jeff do not archive
Message 27
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0.44 FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS Outlook can't send HTML in this format
0.26 UPPERCASE_25_50 message body is 25-50% uppercase
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm@isp.com>
I was working on my brakes today and happened to notice for the first time that
my tires have the words "tube type" on the side of them. As per kit instructions
I mounted them tubeless. I sent Zenith an e-mail asking about it. I don't
think it is wise to mount a tube type tire as tubeless. Anyone else have this
problem or is it a problem? I think it is.
Larry, N1345L
My Airplane Site
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: W&B question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 10/25/2004 10:33:13 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net writes:
<<
The LARGE PRINT GIVITH and the small print stickith a wire brush up thy nose
(This is the FIRST LAW of reading specifications)
Happy Landings
Leo Corbalis
do not archive
>>
What happens when they change the specs later??????????????????
do not archive unless you change the specs.... Ha ha
Message 29
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| Subject: | Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
Because it's not a LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) it's experimental! And as
such can be flown by someone holding a Sport Pilot Certificate or anything
above that.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank
George (Corvallis)
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
Thanks Larry,
Your answer would make sense except for the fact that you can fly a
number of certified airplanes under LSA rules....Presumably they are not
"certificated" as LSA so why would an "experimental" not be allowed fly
under LSA?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Frank,
I asssume you're 601 Airworthiness Cert and placard are Experimental, so
I doubt you've got the flexibility to change the craft from that to SLA
type.
But, time changes everything, so when the flurry of business generated
by the new classification dies down, there'll be a cry to allow the SLA
stall
speed to include aircraft nearest the boundaries of SLA weight etc, to
be included to sell more aircraft. The government suffers
inflexibility, but
with a slow
steady pull from the public, I think it'll eventually happen.
One candidate, if asked about this, would undoubtedly promise to see to
it
that it happened.
( Bad joke ;)
Larry McFarland
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max
> gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be
> within the new LSA rules.
>
> Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while
> building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a
> E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though.
>
> So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot?
>
> Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
> what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
> what the stall speed was until I flew it.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Frank
>
> 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:)
>
>
==
==
==
==
Message 30
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| Subject: | Hypothetical question sort of |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" <jeffglass@starband.net>
Jim,
Re: the FAQ below, what if your plane is already registered as an
Experimental? Can I apply for E-LSA status if my specs meet the FAA
guidelines?
Thanks, Jeff Glasserow
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Pellien
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
Frank,
Stall Speed is one of the performance standards for it to make it into
the Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) envelope. The others are
Maximum Take-off Weight not to exceed 1320 lbs. Also a maximum power
continuous cruise speed not exceeding 120 kts (138 mph) CAS.
If you meet all of the above performance standards then follow the
following steps which can be found at www.eaa.org in their Sport Pilot
section:
========================================================================
QUESTION: What is the process of converting an existing unregistered
aircraft to Experimental Light-Sport Aircraft?
ANSWER: Although the FAA is not yet ready to support the process, it
will be as follows:
1. Apply for an N-Number (Forms expected to be released in October,
2004)
2. Prepare a weight and balance report for your aircraft
3. Install an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) on all two-seat
airplanes (powered parachutes and weight-shift not required);
single-seat is optional
4. Prepare your aircraft for inspection
5. Make an appointment with a FAA airworthiness inspector or a
designated airworthiness representative (DAR).
6. Have your aircraft inspected.
========================================================================
=
Jim Pellien
President
Mid-Atlantic Region
SportsPlanes.com
703-851-9375
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max
gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be
within the new LSA rules.
Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while
building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a
E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though.
So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot?
Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing
what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know
what the stall speed was until I flew it.
Any thoughts?
Frank
601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:)
==
==
==
==
Message 31
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Received-SPF: none (MAIL-SERVER.madbbs.com: domain of jeffpaden@madbbs.com
does not designate any permitted senders)
| Subject: | CH-640 ready for inspection! |
1.00 DIRECT_EMAIL BODY: Talks about direct email
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" <jeffpaden@madbbs.com>
I had a couple of good replies to my questions on W&B but I must say that I
also got a lot off direct email that had nothing to do with my questions and
was just direct flames. This is sad, but I don't offend easy. I enjoy
building and like to have something "different" from the average plane in
the air.
Thank you to those of you that tried to assist me with my questions.
Just to let everyone know, I did finally get the W&B worked out correctly
and one of the things that was throwing it off so far was the fact that I
did not have the longerons level. OOOPS...
After I figured out that problem and corrected it then I still had to add 70
lbs to the tail of the aircraft.
The final empty weight of my CH-640 is 1574 with a CG of 15.26. PERFECT!
I then did a few more with different loadings and found that with full fuel,
myself, and my wife we are in good shape. However that then takes the
loaded weight up to 2170 so I only have 30 lbs left before hitting the max
take off weight of the aircraft.
So in summary I have a VERY powerful two place aircraft unless I want to fly
loaded over gross.
This all seems to make sense to me since the CH-640 is nothing more than a
CH-2000 with a rear seat, and even with the new rear seat it really is not a
four adult aircraft because the rear seat is just too darn small. I love
the aircraft so far but I would not recommend it to anyone that wants a true
four seat aircraft. Please, no flames on that one this is just my opinion
and everyone is entitled to their own even if they do not agree with mine.
One last part for the record. I asked ZAC about the Lycoming IO-540 engine
before I installed it and they gave it the green light.
The 260 hp engine is only 110 lbs more heavier than the 180 hp engine so the
fact that my aircraft is 1574 lbs is not because of the engine.
I really don't see how you could build the aircraft at the published empty
weight unless you don't want any nice instruments, seats, etc.
I am not sorry that I built the CH-640 and I really am looking forward to
her first flight which should be Saturday if every thing goes well with the
inspection on Wednesday.
This list has been VERY helpful over the past two years and I hope that I
can help others to avoid some of the mistakes that I have made.
Jeff Paden
CH-640 COMPLETED!
Message 32
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| Subject: | Kit serial numbers.. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" <garycraze@hotmail.com>
This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes...
I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building.
Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly"
and not the whole kit?
All of the documentation I've received from ZAC has a "Builder Number"
on it. Is that it?
I only ask because I'll be using a software program to track the project
(Kitlog Pro) and it requires a serial number to start a new project, and
I don't really want to make one up if I can avoid it.
Many thanks,
Gary Craze
Houston, TX
CH801 under way ! N801GC (reserved)
Message 33
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|
Received-SPF: none (MAIL-SERVER.madbbs.com: domain of jeffpaden@madbbs.com
does not designate any permitted senders)
| Subject: | Re: Kit serial numbers.. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" <jeffpaden@madbbs.com>
Hello, your serial number is printed on the front of your drawings.
And remember, the only silly question is the one you do not ask, we are here
to try to help you so NEVER feel silly about asking questions.
We were all new builders at one time.
Jeff Paden
CH-640 COMPLETED FINALLY!
>>This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes...
>>I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building.
>>Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly"
>>and not the whole kit?
>>Many thanks,
>>Gary Craze
>>Houston, TX
>>CH801 under way ! N801GC (reserved)
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Useful Load on the Xl |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
My night VFR CH601XL empty weight is 715 pounds.
(I predicted 730 pounds based on ZAC data.)
So my useful load including fuel is 585 pounds.
25 gallons of fuel is about 150 pounds.
So I can carry 435 pounds with full fuel.
So far I'm under the gross weight with anyone
that could fit in the plane. And I climb out
at > 1000 fpm too - wahoo! (Now that it's getting
cooler I'm climbing faster.) I have a Jabiru 3300.
Chris Heintz did design the XL with the sport pilot
category in mind. So he aimed for the 1300 gross weight.
As many other posters have noted, in a number of matronics
lists, if you are not an aeronautical engineer it's not
good practice to increase the gross weight yourself. There
are many factors to consider. It makes good sense to have
the original designer review and approve significant changes.
Joe E.
N633Z @ BFI
128 hours
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004, Matt & Jo wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
> Question for all you Xl folks. What sort of usefull load are you
> ending up with. How accurate is the data that ZAC supplies. I am
> assuming that that was with a VFR Package. I would be intersted to hear
> what you all are ending up with?
>
> Also is the 1300 that they are looking at for a Max GW dependant on the
> new Sport catagory. Can that be incresed if you want to just keep it as
> an experimental?
> Still Researching
> Matt
>
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