---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/26/04: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:15 AM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Jim Pellien) 2. 04:58 AM - Re: Kit serial numbers.. (Gary Craze) 3. 05:13 AM - Re: Kit serial numbers.. (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 4. 05:41 AM - Re: Kit serial numbers.. (baileys) 5. 07:12 AM - Re: Kit serial numbers.. (Larry) 6. 07:16 AM - Re: Kit serial numbers.. (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 7. 07:32 AM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 8. 07:34 AM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Bruce Johnson) 9. 08:07 AM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 10. 09:05 AM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 09:16 AM - Re: Kit serial numbers.. (Gary Craze) 12. 09:20 AM - Re: workshop (Gary Craze) 13. 09:49 AM - Clecoes.... (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 14. 09:56 AM - Re: Clecoes.... (Scott Laughlin) 15. 10:22 AM - Re: Kit serial numbers.. (cummings@stingray.net) 16. 11:41 AM - Rotax 912/914 - Evans NPG+ Coolant (Leo Gates) 17. 12:51 PM - Re: Gas Strut Supplier UK (Clive Richards) 18. 12:57 PM - Re: Corvair (Gary Gower) 19. 12:57 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Jeffrey Glasserow) 20. 01:38 PM - Re: Hypothetical question sort of (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 21. 03:14 PM - Usefull load (Matt & Jo) 22. 07:22 PM - Tires (Larry) 23. 07:24 PM - Re: Usefull load (nhulin) 24. 07:25 PM - another heavy wing solution (Jeff Small) 25. 07:34 PM - HD/HDS gear weight (Brandon Tucker) 26. 07:51 PM - Re: another heavy wing solution (Michel Therrien) 27. 08:31 PM - Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (rgeese1@columbus.rr.com) 28. 08:54 PM - Re: Usefull load (Jim and Lucy) 29. 09:05 PM - Re: Tires (Jim and Lucy) 30. 09:06 PM - Re: Re: CH601XL nose wheel fork (Jack Russell) 31. 09:25 PM - Re: Tires (Jim and Lucy) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:15:24 AM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" Jeff, If it has already been registered as an experimental - amateur built aircraft, then it cannot be re-registered or certified as an E-LSA. However, a Sport Pilot can fly it as an experimental - amateur built aircraft if its performance envelope is within the LSA limits. Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Glasserow Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Jim, Re: the FAQ below, what if your plane is already registered as an Experimental? Can I apply for E-LSA status if my specs meet the FAA guidelines? Thanks, Jeff Glasserow -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Pellien Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" Frank, Stall Speed is one of the performance standards for it to make it into the Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) envelope. The others are Maximum Take-off Weight not to exceed 1320 lbs. Also a maximum power continuous cruise speed not exceeding 120 kts (138 mph) CAS. If you meet all of the above performance standards then follow the following steps which can be found at www.eaa.org in their Sport Pilot section: ======================================================================== QUESTION: What is the process of converting an existing unregistered aircraft to Experimental Light-Sport Aircraft? ANSWER: Although the FAA is not yet ready to support the process, it will be as follows: 1. Apply for an N-Number (Forms expected to be released in October, 2004) 2. Prepare a weight and balance report for your aircraft 3. Install an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) on all two-seat airplanes (powered parachutes and weight-shift not required); single-seat is optional 4. Prepare your aircraft for inspection 5. Make an appointment with a FAA airworthiness inspector or a designated airworthiness representative (DAR). 6. Have your aircraft inspected. ======================================================================== = Jim Pellien President Mid-Atlantic Region SportsPlanes.com 703-851-9375 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be within the new LSA rules. Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though. So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot? Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know what the stall speed was until I flew it. Any thoughts? Frank 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:) == == == == == == == == ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:04 AM PST US From: "Gary Craze" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Hmmm... I dug through the drawings that came with the tail kit, which was a white plastic binder that had 3 fold-out drawings of the rudder and horizontal stabilizer, and then the actual kit directions. Couldn't find anything that represented a serial number anywhere. I've dropped an email to ZAC to solve the mystery. Thanks! Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Paden Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" Hello, your serial number is printed on the front of your drawings. And remember, the only silly question is the one you do not ask, we are here to try to help you so NEVER feel silly about asking questions. We were all new builders at one time. Jeff Paden CH-640 COMPLETED FINALLY! >>This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes... >>I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building. >>Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly" >>and not the whole kit? >>Many thanks, >>Gary Craze >>Houston, TX >>CH801 under way ! N801GC (reserved) == == == == ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:00 AM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com Hello Gary: Did this binder come in a white cardboard box? If it did, your serial number is on the OUTSIDE of that box. It COULD be that ZAC does not assign a serial number until you buy the complete drawing package...please confirm with ZAC. Did you consider attending a factory workshop? I did and would not trade the experience for all the clecos in California! Happy Building! Tracy do not archive In a message dated 10/26/2004 7:56:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Gary Craze" writes: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" > >Hmmm... > >I dug through the drawings that came with the tail kit, which was a >white plastic binder that had 3 fold-out drawings of the rudder and >horizontal stabilizer, and then the actual kit directions. > >Couldn't find anything that represented a serial number anywhere. > >I've dropped an email to ZAC to solve the mystery. > >Thanks! >Gary > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Paden >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" > >Hello, your serial number is printed on the front of your drawings. > >And remember, the only silly question is the one you do not ask, we are >here to try to help you so NEVER feel silly about asking questions. We >were all new builders at one time. > >Jeff Paden >CH-640 COMPLETED FINALLY! > > >>>This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes... > >>>I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building. > >>>Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly" >>>and not the whole kit? > >>>Many thanks, >>>Gary Craze >>>Houston, TX >>>CH801 under way ! N801GC (reserved) > > >== >== >== >== > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:58 AM PST US From: "baileys" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "baileys" Gary, I don't believe a serial number is assigned with a tail kit. It is assigned when the you either purchase the complete plans or subsequent kits. At least that is IMHO Regards, Bob B. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Craze To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:56 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Hmmm... I dug through the drawings that came with the tail kit, which was a white plastic binder that had 3 fold-out drawings of the rudder and horizontal stabilizer, and then the actual kit directions. Couldn't find anything that represented a serial number anywhere. I've dropped an email to ZAC to solve the mystery. Thanks! Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Paden To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" Hello, your serial number is printed on the front of your drawings. And remember, the only silly question is the one you do not ask, we are here to try to help you so NEVER feel silly about asking questions. We were all new builders at one time. Jeff Paden CH-640 COMPLETED FINALLY! >>This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes... >>I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building. >>Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly" >>and not the whole kit? >>Many thanks, >>Gary Craze >>Houston, TX >>CH801 under way ! N801GC (reserved) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:45 AM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" My ZAC serial came with the plans. But, nothing says you have to use it. I made up my own and registered same because the only thing ZAC is the fuselage and tail and I modified those. Larry N1345L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Craze" Subject: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" > > This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes... > > I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building. > > Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly" > and not the whole kit? > > All of the documentation I've received from ZAC has a "Builder Number" > on it. Is that it? > > I only ask because I'll be using a software program to track the project > (Kitlog Pro) and it requires a serial number to start a new project, and > I don't really want to make one up if I can avoid it. > > Many thanks, > Gary Craze > Houston, TX > CH801 under way ! N801GC (reserved) > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:23 AM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Your builder number is your serial number. Anybody who orders a kit or plans gets a builder number. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" > > This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes... > > I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building. > > Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly" > and not the whole kit? > > All of the documentation I've received from ZAC has a "Builder Number" > on it. Is that it? > Your builder number is your serial number. Anybody who orders a kit or plans gets a builder number. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes... I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building. Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly" and not the whole kit? All of the documentation I've received from ZAC has a "Builder Number" on it. Is that it? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:04 AM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net You must register it as an experimental homebuilt. You can't register it as an E-LSA because no E-LSA aircraft exist yet. First the consensus standards must be finalized, then the manufacturer must build a prototype that meets the standards, and then the company can sell kits as E-LSA aircraft and then the builder must build it exactly to plans with no deviations in order for it to be certificated as an E-LSA aircraft. On the other hand, as you mentioned, any aircraft that meets the definition of LSA can be flown by a sport pilot, no matter how it is certificated. The stall speed and gross weight don't appear on the FAA paperwork, they are listed in the entry you make in the aircraft logbook when you complete the phase I testing. The gross weight also appears on the aircraft data plate. As long as the logbook and data plate agree on this point and you've actually tested it at this weight, you should be ok. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max > gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be > within the new LSA rules. > > Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while > building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a > E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though. > > So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot? > > Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing > what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know > what the stall speed was until I flew it. > > Any thoughts? > > Frank > > 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:) > > > > > > You must register it as an experimental homebuilt. You can't register it as an E-LSA because no E-LSA aircraft exist yet. First the consensus standards must be finalized, then the manufacturer must build a prototype that meets the standards, and then the company can sell kits as E-LSA aircraft and then the builder must build it exactly to plans with no deviations in order for it to be certificated as an E-LSA aircraft. On the other hand, as you mentioned, any aircraft that meets the definition of LSA can be flown by a sport pilot, no matter how it is certificated. The stall speed and gross weight don't appear on the FAA paperwork, they are listed in the entry you make in the aircraft logbook when you complete the phase I testing. The gross weight also appears on the aircraft data plate. As long as the logbook and data plate agree on this point and you've actually tested it at this weight, you should be ok. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be within the new LSA rules. Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though. So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot? Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know what the stall speed was until I flew it. < BR> Any thoughts? Frank 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:) ne: http://www.matronics.com/search ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:03 AM PST US From: "Bruce Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" The EAA process listed below is intended for existing "FAT" ultralights to get legal that cannot (or don't want too), for whatever reason get registered as AB experimental. You are MUCH better off registering as AB experimental, then noting in your log book during the test flight period that your stall speed is under 51mph (assuming it is... ), etc. Then the craft can be flown by any Sport Pilot who has been signed off for Make & modal or "SET" (yet to be defined by the FAA) I expect to see quite a few "fat" HDS's out there (ie the "real" stall speed is maybe 54mph, but if you set up the static port just right......) Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Glasserow Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Jim, Re: the FAQ below, what if your plane is already registered as an Experimental? Can I apply for E-LSA status if my specs meet the FAA guidelines? Thanks, Jeff Glasserow -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Pellien Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" Frank, Stall Speed is one of the performance standards for it to make it into the Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) envelope. The others are Maximum Take-off Weight not to exceed 1320 lbs. Also a maximum power continuous cruise speed not exceeding 120 kts (138 mph) CAS. If you meet all of the above performance standards then follow the following steps which can be found at www.eaa.org in their Sport Pilot section: ======================================================================== QUESTION: What is the process of converting an existing unregistered aircraft to Experimental Light-Sport Aircraft? ANSWER: Although the FAA is not yet ready to support the process, it will be as follows: 1. Apply for an N-Number (Forms expected to be released in October, 2004) 2. Prepare a weight and balance report for your aircraft 3. Install an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) on all two-seat airplanes (powered parachutes and weight-shift not required); single-seat is optional 4. Prepare your aircraft for inspection 5. Make an appointment with a FAA airworthiness inspector or a designated airworthiness representative (DAR). 6. Have your aircraft inspected. ======================================================================== = Jim Pellien President Mid-Atlantic Region SportsPlanes.com 703-851-9375 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be within the new LSA rules. Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though. So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot? Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know what the stall speed was until I flew it. Any thoughts? Frank 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:) == == == == --- --- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" No, no really it stalls very slowly....:) I don't actually remember entering the stall speed in the logbook...I mean who cares. I just "know" its right around 50.999mph...My gross is plated at 1200lb so no probs there. I'm sure I could make sure my airplane logbook is up to date. If the FAA is happy with this rather, er....trusting approach (wonder if the RV-7 can be LSA?) then it really comes down to the insurance companies being happy with a SP in an HDS. Can't see MUCH problem there, they seem to fly the same. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" The EAA process listed below is intended for existing "FAT" ultralights to get legal that cannot (or don't want too), for whatever reason get registered as AB experimental. You are MUCH better off registering as AB experimental, then noting in your log book during the test flight period that your stall speed is under 51mph (assuming it is... ), etc. Then the craft can be flown by any Sport Pilot who has been signed off for Make & modal or "SET" (yet to be defined by the FAA) I expect to see quite a few "fat" HDS's out there (ie the "real" stall speed is maybe 54mph, but if you set up the static port just right......) Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Glasserow Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Jim, Re: the FAQ below, what if your plane is already registered as an Experimental? Can I apply for E-LSA status if my specs meet the FAA guidelines? Thanks, Jeff Glasserow -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Pellien Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" Frank, Stall Speed is one of the performance standards for it to make it into the Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) envelope. The others are Maximum Take-off Weight not to exceed 1320 lbs. Also a maximum power continuous cruise speed not exceeding 120 kts (138 mph) CAS. If you meet all of the above performance standards then follow the following steps which can be found at www.eaa.org in their Sport Pilot section: ======================================================================== QUESTION: What is the process of converting an existing unregistered aircraft to Experimental Light-Sport Aircraft? ANSWER: Although the FAA is not yet ready to support the process, it will be as follows: 1. Apply for an N-Number (Forms expected to be released in October, 2004) 2. Prepare a weight and balance report for your aircraft 3. Install an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) on all two-seat airplanes (powered parachutes and weight-shift not required); single-seat is optional 4. Prepare your aircraft for inspection 5. Make an appointment with a FAA airworthiness inspector or a designated airworthiness representative (DAR). 6. Have your aircraft inspected. ======================================================================== = Jim Pellien President Mid-Atlantic Region SportsPlanes.com 703-851-9375 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Subject: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be within the new LSA rules. Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though. So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot? Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know what the stall speed was until I flew it. Any thoughts? Frank 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:) == == == == --- --- == == == == ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:32 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Larry from what I am reading there seems to be two approaches.. 1) Build and register the A/C as an E-LSA...This may be "out" as you describe. 2) Build a 51% experimental and register it as experimental and if it complies it maybe flown by a Sport Pilot. Firstly the EAA website says you can modify an experimental while under construction to meet the LSA criteria....It would seem reasonable that if the A/C just happened (as in my case) to stall at 50.9999mph at gross weight, I can sell it to a Sport Pilot for him/her to fly legally. Encoraging if the FAA agrees and the insurance companies will cover it. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" --> Frank, If I found out tomorrow, (nice idea) my HDS performed within the criteria, I don't think it'd be allowed to be in SLA because it's a type that doesn't normally meet that description. They'd consider the craft modified to meet the criteria or an established design that is very close. They don't want to get into the business of being required to do new airworthiness inspections to re-establish SLA candidates. I think they've named all the established exp. cert. and light types as in or out of SLA. Otherwise interim testing on an individual basis to prove SLA performance capability would become a full time growing nightmare for the FAA. More likely, being close will bring economic pressure on the Fed to expand on, but not change the rules to include others and our HDS type which is within an immeasurable tolerence of the SLA stall speed. Much less expensive for govenment. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:04 AM PST US From: "Gary Craze" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Thanks everyone! My project is officially started! Regards, Gary Craze Houston, TX CH801 N801GC (reserved) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Your builder number is your serial number. Anybody who orders a kit or plans gets a builder number. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" > > This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes... > > I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building. > > Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly" > and not the whole kit? > > All of the documentation I've received from ZAC has a "Builder Number" > on it. Is that it? > Your builder number is your serial number. Anybody who orders a kit or plans gets a builder number. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" This may seem like a silly or nave question, but here goes... I just received my tail kit for the CH801 I'll be building. Do I have a serial number even though I only ordered a "sub-assembly" and not the whole kit? All of the documentation I've received from ZAC has a "Builder Number" on it. Is that it? == == == == ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:10 AM PST US From: "Gary Craze" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: workshop --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Hi Tracy, I didn't attend the workshop. This will be my third aircraft and the second using blind rivets and sheet metal (the second was a plans-only plane), so I'm pretty comfortable around the process. But I did order more clecos! Regards, Gary Houston, TX CH801 N801GC (reserved) -----Original Message----- --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com Hello Gary: Did you consider attending a factory workshop? I did and would not trade the experience for all the clecos in California! Happy Building! Tracy do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:56 AM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Clecoes.... --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com Is the cleco shortage a nationwide phenomena? Or is it just centered around my shop? Dave ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:11 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Clecoes.... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" I'm seeing it up here in Nebraska. ----Original Message Follows---- From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Is the cleco shortage a nationwide phenomena? Or is it just centered around my shop? Dave http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:01 AM PST US From: cummings@stingray.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit serial numbers.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: cummings@stingray.net On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, baileys wrote: > I don't believe a serial number is assigned with a tail kit. It is > assigned when the you either purchase the complete plans or subsequent To address his concern because he's going to be using kitlog pro. It doesn't matter and he can use a bogus number and later on change it. My plans were out to the hangar and I just enter my work when I get home, so for a time I just used a number like 1234, then later on fixed it when I remembered to write the plans number down and bring it home with me. So he'll use the program like normal entering the right number when he gets it. -- Matthew P. Cummings 1974 Cessna 150L N10667 Moberly, MO (MBY) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:28 AM PST US From: "Leo Gates" Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax 912/914 - Evans NPG+ Coolant --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Gates" Rotax has published SB912-043 requiring all certified 912/914 engines be converted to Evans NPG+ no later than Dec. 31, 2004. I have a 912UL so I guess I do not have to comply. The stuff is expensive. However, maybe a one time purchase? How do you get rid of water in the present engine - Rotax says 3.6 percent water max. Has anyone on the list checked into this? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:55 PM PST US From: "Clive Richards" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gas Strut Supplier UK --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clive Richards" Hi List the price for the Gas Struts Should read 27.44 British pounds Plus VAT the total cost for the two including VAT & delivery in UK was 73.88 British Pounds. Apparently the pound sign on the key pad gets converted to A3 when sent over the internet I send it again as a check Clive Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clive Richards" Subject: Zenith-List: Gas Strut Supplier UK > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clive Richards" > > Hi List > For information to UK Builders > > Ray Lasnier has fitted the following made to measure gas struts to his front hinged CH 601 HD Canopy > > Length between fixings 710 mm stroke 280 mm with a steel ball joint at each end > Obtained as adjastable pressure which was reduced to approx 35 lbs. by releasing gas while pressing on scales. > > They were obtained from Gas Strut Engineering Unit 2,Lyon Close, Womburn Road Industrial Estate, Kempston,Bedford MK42 7SB. Tel 01234 843979 www.gasstrutengineering.co.uk > > They were =A327.44 + VAT each. Note their standard stock sizes are cheaper. > > Product Description 8-18-280-710-BBV > > Clive Richards > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:57 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello Al, Im interested, How is the actual condition? is t converted or is a core, ready to convert... Where are you located? Finaly, Do you have a price? Saludos Gary Gower. ggower_99@yahoo.com --- Al Young wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" > > > I've got a 64 corvair engine I don't need if anyone is interested. > Contact me off list. Al Young > Armyret@one-eleven.net > Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:57 PM PST US From: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Hi Guys, I guess the acid test is the insurance companies... I spoke to Avemco and AIG. Both will insure me and the plane (HDS) knowing that I was going to fly it as a Sport Pilot. Both companies said what you've been saying. "Yes, it's experimental, it will stay experimental, but as long as the plane WAS NOT modified to be compliant with LSA rules, i.e., build data and certification statements at time of registration were LSA compliant, then it's OK to fly the plane." Jeff Glasserow -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net You must register it as an experimental homebuilt. You can't register it as an E-LSA because no E-LSA aircraft exist yet. First the consensus standards must be finalized, then the manufacturer must build a prototype that meets the standards, and then the company can sell kits as E-LSA aircraft and then the builder must build it exactly to plans with no deviations in order for it to be certificated as an E-LSA aircraft. On the other hand, as you mentioned, any aircraft that meets the definition of LSA can be flown by a sport pilot, no matter how it is certificated. The stall speed and gross weight don't appear on the FAA paperwork, they are listed in the entry you make in the aircraft logbook when you complete the phase I testing. The gross weight also appears on the aircraft data plate. As long as the logbook and data plate agree on this point and you've actually tested it at this weight, you should be ok. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max > gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be > within the new LSA rules. > > Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while > building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a > E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though. > > So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot? > > Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing > what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know > what the stall speed was until I flew it. > > Any thoughts? > > Frank > > 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:) > > You must register it as an experimental homebuilt. You can't register it as an E-LSA because no E-LSA aircraft exist yet. First the consensus standards must be finalized, then the manufacturer must build a prototype that meets the standards, and then the company can sell kits as E-LSA aircraft and then the builder must build it exactly to plans with no deviations in order for it to be certificated as an E-LSA aircraft. On the other hand, as you mentioned, any aircraft that meets the definition of LSA can be flown by a sport pilot, no matter how it is certificated. The stall speed and gross weight don't appear on the FAA paperwork, they are listed in the entry you make in the aircraft logbook when you complete the phase I testing. The gross weight also appears on the aircraft data plate. As long as the logbook and data plate agree on this point and you've actually tested it at this weight, you should be ok. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" So I have a 601HDS, However after I flew it for the first time the max gross stall speed was 50mph. What a surprise, just so happens to be within the new LSA rules. Of course one can build an aircraft from a kit and modify it while building to make sure it fits within the LSA and then operate it as a E-LSA a/c...Not sure I'll do this with my new RV-7 though. So what do I do now should I wish to sell this A/C to a "Sport" pilot? Does it need to be registered as such?.....I can't remember detailing what the stall speed was on the FAA paperwork...In fact I didn't know what the stall speed was until I flew it. < BR> Any thoughts? Frank 601 HDS Stratus with Ram Heads and drooping ailerons....:) ne: http://www.matronics.com/search ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:10 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Sounds like I have a whole new market into which I will be able to sell my HDS...Cool!..:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Glasserow Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hypothetical question sort of --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" --> Hi Guys, I guess the acid test is the insurance companies... I spoke to Avemco and AIG. Both will insure me and the plane (HDS) knowing that I was going to fly it as a Sport Pilot. Both companies said what you've been saying. "Yes, it's experimental, it will stay experimental, but as long as the plane WAS NOT modified to be compliant with LSA rules, i.e., build data and certification statements at time of registration were LSA compliant, then it's OK to fly the plane." Jeff Glasserow ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:49 PM PST US From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Zenith-List: Usefull load --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" Looking at ZAKs website I am trying to understand the differences in the useful load between the Jabaru and the Lycoming configurations. From what I have seen the Jabaru weighs about 178 and the Lycoming weighs 218, a 40 lb difference. However they advertise a useful load of 500 for the Lycoming and 605 for the Jabaru. Why the big difference? Are my numbers off for the Lycoming? O% completed, 99% interested Thanks for the info Matt ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:36 PM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Zenith-List: Tires 0.44 FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS Outlook can't send HTML in this format --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" I e-mailed Zenith about the "tube type" tires being mounted as "tubeless", here is their response. STOL CH 701 > > > > Also refer to the following sheet for the installation of the O-ring > > These are the correct tires - In this application, the same tires are > > used with or without the tube. We have been operating our demo > > tubeless with the "Tube Type" tires with no problem - Matco is right, > > these tires are suitable for tubeless application. > > > > > > > > Nick Heintz > > Zenith Aircraft Company Here is what I e-mailed back to them. I have read your reply and respectively submit the following; Matco is right???? Matco doesn't manufacture tires, thus their recommendation is illevelent. Carlisle, the tire manufacturer, has clearly printed on both sides of the tires you provided as part of my Zenith 701 kit, as "tube type", and you have recommended in writing and provided parts with instructions to mount "tube type" tires as "tubeless". Which is totally adverse to the recommendations of the tire manufacturer. Surely you understand the possible ramifications you and your company could suffer should a builder who has in good faith followed your instructions, have a problem which could be directly attributed as the cause of loss of life or injury to his/her or other persons or property. Unless Carlisle has published an exception to mounting the "tube type' tire as "tubeless", I believe it would be in Zenith's best interest as well as your customers for you to take immediate corrective action. I for one will be putting tubes in my tires. Larry Martin N1345L I have an aggressive personality and sometimes put my foot in my mouth, but at least everyone know where I stand. And Maybe some of you guys think I go a little over board, but I think Zenith is just plain wrong about this and should do the right thing. When it comes to aircraft you don't take short cuts. Larry N1345L Larry, N1345L My Airplane Site ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:07 PM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Usefull load --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" Matt, If you look at the raw engine specs you need to realize that the Jabiru weight is more indicative of the actual engine in the aircraft. The 180 pounds includes alternator, carb and induction, and exhaust system. Basically, the 180 pounds is what comes in the box almost ready to bolt on and fly. The Lycoming on the other hand really is just the basic engine and there is a lot of weight to add to it to get it to fly. ..neil 601XL/Corvair Fuselage and stuff On Tue Oct 26 - 3:14 PM, Matt & Jo (archermj@swbell.net) wrote: Looking at ZAKs website I am trying to understand the differences in the useful load between the Jabaru and the Lycoming configurations. Matt ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:09 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: another heavy wing solution --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" Before relegating your August Sport Aviation issue to the bottom of the pile or taking it in to the local airport bums, you might want to read the Flight Advisor article entitled "Training Solution" beginning on page 109. It details the first flights of a 601 HD, problems with an out of envelope W&B caused by a Lycoming 0-235 that was hung six inches further forward than plans, and a heavy left wing problem. Of interest is the cure for the heavy wing - a cure that the RV fraternity uses often: "...reducing the trailing edge radius of the aileron on the 'light' wing." page 111 Just going along pinching the trailing edge with your thumb and fingers will result in a wavy edge. Better to devise some sort of hinged, portable brake (perhaps out of 1x4 and hinges) to clamp over a much longer length of trailing edge. tailwinds jeff ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:41 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: HD/HDS gear weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Gents, I am trying to calculate the weight difference between the bungee gear system, and the Grove spring gear. I have a builder that is weighing the gear boxes from the center wing, and I am looking for someone to weigh their gear legs, forks with doublers, and bungees. If anyone has the entire assembly including the box and ribs and can weigh that, I would really appreciate it. I can then just subtract the weight of the ribs that I have and get an accurate weight. As soon as I find the weight difference between bungee and spring, I will report back with my findings. If others could weigh their nose gear assembly / tailwheel assembly, I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance, Brandon Tucker HDS Corvair working on center wing section __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:33 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: another heavy wing solution --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien With our Zodiac, doing it right does not take that long. I had a heavy left wing problem due to mis leveling of the wings. (they were not equal by .5 degrees). I removed the wing, removed the rear attachment plate from the wing. Made a new plate and re-installed. Made a new front attachment plate and re-installed + match drilled. All in one long evening. Problem was resolved for good. While it is difficult to work from inside the wing through the lightening hole, it worked fine with a combination of long drill bit, lighting and a strategically positioned mirror in the wing. To remove the plate I first removed the rivet ends from inside (rivets were initially driven from outside). Then, I drilled them with a no 30 or 40 (can't remember) bit (to make sure my hole was centered). and then with a no 20 bit. A few rivets gave me difficulty as the head was rotating... I punched them from outside. Plates were matched drills except for the bolt hole. I made a bushing to mark the center of the original hole, traced a line following the dihedral angle. And positioned the new hole where needed and drilled. Re-riveting was done from inside the wing as the Aileron prevented me from working from outside. I had to redo a few rivets as it is hard to pull straight in a so hostile location. Start time was 7pm, work was done by 0h45am. Michel --- Jeff Small wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > Before relegating your August Sport Aviation issue > to the bottom of the pile or taking it in to the > local airport bums, you might want to read the > Flight Advisor article entitled "Training Solution" > beginning on page 109. It details the first flights > of a 601 HD, problems with an out of envelope W&B > caused by a Lycoming 0-235 that was hung six inches > further forward than plans, and a heavy left wing > problem. > > Of interest is the cure for the heavy wing - a cure > that the RV fraternity uses often: > > "...reducing the trailing edge radius of the aileron > on the 'light' wing." page 111 > > Just going along pinching the trailing edge with > your thumb and fingers will result in a wavy edge. > Better to devise some sort of hinged, portable brake > (perhaps out of 1x4 and hinges) to clamp over a much > longer length of trailing edge. > > tailwinds jeff > ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:45 PM PST US From: rgeese1@columbus.rr.com Subject: Zenith-List: RE: CH601XL nose wheel fork --> Zenith-List message posted by: rgeese1@columbus.rr.com Just a thought--If anyone out there has the means to bend up 3/16" or 1/4" nose wheel fork doublers and would be willing to offer them for sale, I would be interested in purchasing a set. I too am concerned about the strength of the single 3/16" fork supplied with the kit. I am just getting started on construction, but am trying to look ahead a little. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:56 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Usefull load --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy At 05:13 PM 10/26/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" > >Looking at ZAKs website I am trying to understand the differences in the >useful load between the Jabaru and the Lycoming configurations. Unless you have a list of what exactly was weighed, the different fwf weights you come across for different engines is not completely useful. Thing like oil, water,heavy-light starter, metal-wood prop, prop extension, rads, engine mounts, extra batteries for redundant ignition and or fuel pumps, different cowlings, muffler, light or heavy alternator-generator, and some other things. You never know what they are including in the engine weight for instance my soob may weigh about 235 lbs. Or it may weigh 188 lbs it depends what how much stuff I decide to put on the scale with it. Jim Pollard ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:36 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tires --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy Some motorcycles tyres were tube type and some were both. You were not supposed to use tubes in some tubeless tyres because they would get hot and possibly fail the tube or tyre. Now in order to get hot you had to drive a fair distance. You are not going to travel very far across the pavement in a zodiac. Not like a boat trailer going 70 mph for hours and hours. Maybe this is why they thing they are ok for these aircraft wheels with tubes. Like putting a 30 ply aircraft tire on a transport truck. Blows to bits in an hour. But put it on a farm wagon with twice the weight on it and it lasts forever (almost) ...heat . Jim ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:30 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: CH601XL nose wheel fork --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell I am wondering if the 601 hd nosewheel doubler would fit. Zac may not have changed the dimensions on the XL. Perhaps someone with a 601hd could give us a measurement. Thanks Jack in Clovis CA rgeese1@columbus.rr.com wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: rgeese1@columbus.rr.com Just a thought--If anyone out there has the means to bend up 3/16" or 1/4" nose wheel fork doublers and would be willing to offer them for sale, I would be interested in purchasing a set. I too am concerned about the strength of the single 3/16" fork supplied with the kit. I am just getting started on construction, but am trying to look ahead a little. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:56 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tires --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy Some motorcycles tires were tube type and some were both. You were not supposed to use tubes in some tubeless tires because they would get hot and possibly fail the tube or tyre. Now in order to get hot you had to drive a fair distance. You are not going to travel very far across the pavement in a zodiac. Not like a boat trailer going 70 mph for hours and hours. Maybe this is why they think they are ok for these aircraft wheels with tubes. Like putting a 30 ply aircraft tire on a transport truck. Blows to bits in an hour. But put it on a farm wagon with twice the weight on it and it lasts forever (almost) ...heat . Jim