---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/02/04: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:27 AM - Re: Composite spring gear (Jake Reyna) 2. 04:57 AM - NSI Prop AD (Cdngoose) 3. 05:24 AM - Re: Steering rod boots (jnbolding1) 4. 06:09 AM - Re: Gross Weight (cgalley) 5. 06:37 AM - Re: Simple Questions: Builders Logs and Vixen File (David Barth) 6. 06:56 AM - Re: Composite 601 gear (Brandon Tucker) 7. 06:57 AM - Re: 701 flap handle (Larry) 8. 07:01 AM - prop advisory (David Barth) 9. 07:04 AM - Re: Sand bags (Larry McFarland) 10. 07:12 AM - Re: prop advisory (David Barth) 11. 07:19 AM - Re: Simple Questions: Builders Logs and Vixen File (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 12. 07:38 AM - Re: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS (Larry McFarland) 13. 07:55 AM - Re: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 14. 08:16 AM - Re: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS (Jeffrey Glasserow) 15. 08:58 AM - Digital level (Dirk Slabbert) 16. 09:41 AM - Re: Digital level (Larry McFarland) 17. 10:17 AM - Re: Sand bags (Brandon Tucker) 18. 10:44 AM - Re: Digital level (Dabusmith@aol.com) 19. 02:44 PM - Re: RE; Gross Weight (Flydog1966@aol.com) 20. 02:55 PM - Re: Gross Weight (Jeff Paden) 21. 02:57 PM - Re: RE; Gross Weight (Jeff Paden) 22. 02:59 PM - Rotax engine oil (Ronnie Koonce) 23. 03:00 PM - Re: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS (Jeffrey Glasserow) 24. 03:29 PM - Re: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 25. 04:00 PM - Oil Temp (Jeff Paden) 26. 04:06 PM - Re: RE; Gross Weight (Lance Gingell) 27. 04:37 PM - Re: 601 heavy left wing (Bill Howerton) 28. 05:05 PM - Re: Gross Weight (cgalley) 29. 05:11 PM - Re: Oil Temp (cgalley) 30. 05:12 PM - Priming Alum for Zenith Builders (Howard Carter) 31. 05:34 PM - Electrical and Vacuum Systems (Howard Carter) 32. 07:53 PM - Took the Plunge! (Matt & Jo) 33. 07:54 PM - Re: Simple Questions: Builders Logs and Vixen File (Carlos Sa) 34. 08:27 PM - Re: Rotax engine oil (Leo Gates) 35. 11:09 PM - Re: Took the Plunge! (xl) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:24 AM PST US From: "Jake Reyna" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Composite spring gear 0.32 DIET_2 BODY: Describes weight loss --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jake Reyna" Seems like there are many on a quest for lighter gear. I traded emails with Chip regarding his composite gear and talked at length with Skyshops about purchasing their gear for the XL I have on order from Mexico. But first, I was informed that Czech Aircraft uses an entirely different system to attach the main landing gear and it is two piece. They'll sell you all the parts, but it is going to require significant modification to the fuselage center section and Skyshops doesn't recommend unless you really want to make some significant changes. Based on the numbers Brandon posted, the simple solution is to lose 15 lbs by using the Grove gear. And speaking of losing pounds, I'm carrying an extra 20 and my wife 15, she's already lost 5. So, by using the Grove gear and getting down to our ideal weight, we'll be 50 pounds lighter :-) obtw, has anyone considered running a turbo on the Jabiru 3300? Jake jake@lockhart-tx.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:39 AM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: Zenith-List: NSI Prop AD --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> From another list. RAA Canada Members, This summer an RAA member suffered the loss of a prop blade on his amphibious 912S Kitfox, that was equipped with a NSI CAP 140 propellor.The engine immediately broke from its mount, but fortunately was retained by the hoses and cables. The pilot was able to make a successful emergency landing with the departed blade stuck into his float. The NSI CAP 140 prop is in-flight adjustable and has three Warp Drive blades that are modified by the addition of an aluminum cuff that fits into the NSI hub. There have so far been two versions of this cuff, with a third version about to be released. Some applications will have their effective lives limited by this AD, and others are grounded immediately. New version 3 parts are not yet ready, so some planes will be grounded until parts are available near the end of this year. Effective immediately, all 912S Rotax engines with either the version 1 or version 2 cuff are grounded. These parts may not be used any longer. Ship your blades to NSI for installation of the version 3 cuff. Lance Wheeler has told me this morning that the cost will be under $500 US. Effective immediately, all 912 engines with the version 1 cuff are limited to 500 hours. All 912 engines with the version 2 cuff are limited to 1000 hours. Blades must then be shipped to NSI for installation of the version 3 cuff. Effective immediately, all 914 engines with the version 1 cuff are limited to 700 hours. All 914 engines with the version 2 cuff are limited to 1000 hours. Blades must then be shipped to NSI for installation of the version 3 cuff. In Lance Wheeler's estimate, blades fitted with the version 3 cuff will have an effective life of 2000 hours.This estimate has been calculated by Finite Element Analysis. The full story on this will be printed in the next issue of the Recreational Flyer. Gary Wolf President, RAA Canada ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:27 AM PST US From: "jnbolding1" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Steering rod boots --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" ---------- >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford > >Hi group: >I made my rudder steering rod boots from kevlar fabric, sewed with >kevlar thread, and tied on in several places with safety wire, and >rivets. The stuff doesn't burn, doesn't give off poison gasses, etc. I >think it should keep the fire out. >Pictures at: >http://members.cox.net/sonar1/kevlarsock.jpg > >http://members.cox.net/sonar1/sockbase.jpg > >Fred Sanford Ca. 701 Working on doors >do not archive I wonder how effective it will be in keeping the CO on the proper side of the firewall . LOW&SLOW John ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:05 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gross Weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" You keep avoiding the prop type and its associated weight. If you have that much power, maybe a fixed pitch would reduce the balance weight in the tail. You would still get good climb. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gross Weight > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" > > > > Hmmm... I think I'd rather go on a diet > > than pull $40,000.00 of instruments out of my aircraft. > > > >>There's your problem, right there. Do you have any idea how much $40,000 > >>weighs??!! > > Yup, about 10 lbs. Electronics do not weigh much but they sure are > expensive. > > I will admit though, originally I had planned on an all glass cockpit and I > would not have had any of the old heavy instruments. However after my > little accident with the trees I had all the instruments from my CH300 > available so I installed them in this aircraft as backup instruments. > I guess I could make a new instrument panel and ditch all of the old heavy > instruments. I just might do that once the snow starts to fly up here since > I will have all winter to complete the change. I'm not sure that it would > make that big of difference, but every pound I can remove would help I guess > > > Jeff Paden > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:27 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Simple Questions: Builders Logs and Vixen File --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Hi Tracy. many people have expressed concern about running a file over sheet metal. I guess I was skeptical until I bought this one on ebay. http://www.ch601.org/tools/vixen%20file.jpg It is a vixen file. Someone went to the effort to section off a larger file and attach a wooden soap bar handle. The seller told me they use these at Boing. I figured if it was good enough for Boing..... I tried it on some test pieces and was amazed. If the file is properly tuned it may polish the surface of the sheet and only remove any high material. When looking at a hole after it was beburred with the vixen file it is perfectly flat. There is a little shiny ring at the hole where the upraised material from drilling was removed. One of the problems with using a drill bit is the possibility of eremoving too much material from the hole. That's not good. Many builders use a drill and do it this way but it is time consuming. I can deburr 30 holes along the edge of a skin in under 30 seconds and the holes are perfect. I wouldn't do this with just any file but I wouldn't be without my vixen file for any future aluminum work. just my 2 cents David Tracy Wrote: and then during deburring we were told to drag a file right over it...that didn't seem right to me, so I hit every hole individually with the twist of a large drill as shown at the workshop. Did I waste my time ?? David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:03 AM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Composite 601 gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Gents, As mentioned previously, the Grove gear will require some minor modification of the attach points for the XL as well. I am not sure of the diimentions of the composite gear, but I am sure that it is not as wide as the 6061 gear. No matter which gear is put on the HD / HDS, some mounting brackets will have to be fabricated, at some weight gain. I have pictures of a tri-gear and taildragger application for those interested. The brackets don't appear to be very difficult to build. My main motivation for looking into options is that I don't want to build the bungee boxes into my center wing, and I have heard several accounts of bearing failures in the HD gear. This is not to say that the gear is flawed in any way, but there have been a few instances. The spring gear is a much easier installation, even with having to build mounting brackets. R/ Brandon __________________________________ www.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:44 AM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 flap handle --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" They don't have to be that long, but it doesn't hurt anything. You can cut the lower one, just don't cut it so short it slips out of the flap setting notches. Zenith only uses two positions, I think they need three 0,15&30. Larry N1345L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 flap handle > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" > > Is there a reason for the flap handle to have two long tabs. It seems the lower one would only have to be an inch or less. What am I missing? > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:42 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Zenith-List: prop advisory --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Hi all . I know there are several people using rotax engines on this list so I thought I would share an advisory note that came from the Recreational Aircraft Association president - Gary Wolfe. Fly Safe David RAA Canada Members, This summer an RAA member suffered the loss of a prop blade on his amphibious 912S Kitfox, that was equipped with a NSI CAP 140 propellor.The engine immediately broke from its mount, but fortunately was retained by the hoses and cables. The pilot was able to make a successful emergency landing with the departed blade stuck into his float. The NSI CAP 140 prop is in-flight adjustable and has three Warp Drive blades that are modified by the addition of an aluminum cuff that fits into the NSI hub. There have so far been two versions of this cuff, with a third version about to be released. Some applications will have their effective lives limited by this AD, and others are grounded immediately. New version 3 parts are not yet ready, so some planes will be grounded until parts are available near the end of this year. Effective immediately, all 912S Rotax engines with either the version 1 or version 2 cuff are grounded. These parts may not be used any longer. Ship your blades to NSI for installation of the version 3 cuff. Lance Wheeler has told me this morning that the cost will be under $500 US. Effective immediately, all 912 engines with the version 1 cuff are limited to 500 hours. All 912 engines with the version 2 cuff are limited to 1000 hours. Blades must then be shipped to NSI for installation of the version 3 cuff. Effective immediately, all 914 engines with the version 1 cuff are limited to 700 hours. All 914 engines with the version 2 cuff are limited to 1000 hours. Blades must then be shipped to NSI for installation of the version 3 cuff. In Lance Wheeler's estimate, blades fitted with the version 3 cuff will have an effective life of 2000 hours. This estimate has been calculated by Finite Element Analysis. The full story on this will be printed in the next issue of the Recreational Flyer. Gary Wolf President, RAA Canada President, RAA Canada David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:21 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sand bags --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" The sandbag test is usually performed on pre-production aircraft and the wings used are loaded to a limit that requires the parts be evaluated and measured for elongation, deformation, cracking, etc. The parts from a successful test of this type are usually never flown, but kept as a permanent record for future production. There is no assurance that parts tested to these limits won't fail prematurely because loads can damage material by inadverdently taking it too far into the plastic zone. I wouldn't fly an aircraft that had been tested to these limits, even with a new set of wings. What the Fins are doing must be considered a lesser test for G-load limits specified by the designer. Larry McFarland ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Stutzman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sand bags > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman > > On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Grant Corriveau wrote: > >> This sandbag test is required for all certified aircraft designs, but is >> it >> required (or performed anyways) for amateur-built designs? I 'think' >> not -- > > Not in the US. However, in Finland (and perhaps other places), homebuilt > aircraft are required to go through the same design testing that > production aircraft do. > > Somewhere on www.bowersflybaby.com is a picture of Finnish flybaby upside > down with sandbags loaded on it. > > Frank Stutzman > Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" > Hood River, OR > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:50 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prop advisory --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Oops. Sorry, I didn't see Mark's post before putting this one up. Good intentions though. david do not archive David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:42 AM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Simple Questions: Builders Logs and Vixen File --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com Vixen file! Magic tool! Great for deburring! I used regular files, drill bits, de-burring tools.....in that order....till I finally bought a vixen file. I still have to use a de-burring tool in the tight spots, but the vixen file is great for most other jobs. Dave ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:05 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Jeffrey, You might look more closely at the distance the seat pan is off the belly of the center section and if it's more than 1/2", it'd be worth making a new one by patterning from the old one and making it longer. Take out the back upholstery and if another inch or more is needed, revisit the seat back from the standpoint of a thin pad 1/4" thick. To get into changing the seat back panel will require a lot of undoing of structurally-set skins. Think before jumping into this area. Aside from major neck surgery, move yourself an inch more to center and pad up your bum so you sitting forward of the bottom seat curve. If you need more than can be had by these simple solutions, take a pass on the plane unless you're prepared to rebuild it. This process is not without risk to the appearance of the side skins. Some have changed the height the canopy sits off the fuselage and that too can be done with a lot of work. If yours is a side opening type, you might consider revising it to open forward which should make getting clearance with the canopy less a challenge. You might check out my web site and look closely at the canopy and fuselage pictures for ideas on making these changes. Good luck! It is a great little plane to fly! Larry McFarland - 601HDS with 44 hours @ www.macsmachine.com Subject: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS > The seat bottom and seat back look to be about 3/4" to 1" thick. > Can the seat be lowered or canted back to give me a bit more headroom? > Any > suggestions would be greatly appreciated! > Jeff G. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:41 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hello Jeff, Are you going to fly the HDS as a Sport pilot after all?...Cool. Yes I've done LOTS of spins in the HDS and they are quite delightful. The A/C does speed up quite a bit as the spin develops but it breaks out very nicely. Can't help you on the seat....I almost need a booster cushion....:) The HDS will also roll but it takes a determined effort to get it over....way too much dihedral to do that easily. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Glasserow Subject: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" --> Looks like I might have bought a plane today. Boy, was I impressed with its performance with the Lycoming O-235! It was very gusty, with crosswinds of 12 to 19 Knots on the ground. I held it down and rotated at 60 K to make sure a gust wouldn't stall us. After a 800' roll off we went, bouncing around like the ping pong balls in the lottery machine. Winds aloft were 25 to 40 K in gusts. The plane handled well and was very responsive. Power off stalls were gentle, with a pronounced buffet before break. Once into the stall there was no tendency to drop a wing. Again I was impressed with the stability and quick recovery. Power on stalls were a bit more lively. It seemed like I had to get the plane vertical before it broke. Once into the stall there was a slight tendency to break to the left but it was easily corrected. Has anybody tried a spin? I'd be interested to know how it handled and whether there was a tendency to tighten up if it went past 1 full turn. Landing was a treat... Carried in more power than I normally would and kept my approach speed high to make sure there was plenty of rudder authority. Luckily, the wind stayed down the runway so touchdown was uneventful. Based on the way the plane handled and the quality of the build, I made an offer. I'll find out tomorrow if my offer was accepted. Now, Big question. I'm 5'11 and weigh about 226 fully clothed. My head is bumping the canopy with my headset on and I'll need to do... something... to get my head down. No, taking an inch off the top is out of the question! The seller is 5'9 and weighs 180 and he has no problem with the seat height. The seat bottom and seat back look to be about 3/4" to 1" thick. Can the seat be lowered or canted back to give me a bit more headroom? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Jeff G. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:04 AM PST US From: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Larry, thanks for your input. I'll see what I can do with the pan before I consummate the deal. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Jeffrey, You might look more closely at the distance the seat pan is off the belly of the center section and if it's more than 1/2", it'd be worth making a new one by patterning from the old one and making it longer. Take out the back upholstery and if another inch or more is needed, revisit the seat back from the standpoint of a thin pad 1/4" thick. To get into changing the seat back panel will require a lot of undoing of structurally-set skins. Think before jumping into this area. Aside from major neck surgery, move yourself an inch more to center and pad up your bum so you sitting forward of the bottom seat curve. If you need more than can be had by these simple solutions, take a pass on the plane unless you're prepared to rebuild it. This process is not without risk to the appearance of the side skins. Some have changed the height the canopy sits off the fuselage and that too can be done with a lot of work. If yours is a side opening type, you might consider revising it to open forward which should make getting clearance with the canopy less a challenge. You might check out my web site and look closely at the canopy and fuselage pictures for ideas on making these changes. Good luck! It is a great little plane to fly! Larry McFarland - 601HDS with 44 hours @ www.macsmachine.com Subject: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS > The seat bottom and seat back look to be about 3/4" to 1" thick. > Can the seat be lowered or canted back to give me a bit more headroom? > Any > suggestions would be greatly appreciated! > Jeff G. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:08 AM PST US From: "Dirk Slabbert" Subject: Zenith-List: Digital level --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" 'Mornin fellow 701 builders, I'm just about to lay skin on the wings, but worried about the slightest twist. After about 4 months my sturdy laminated work table needs adjusting, checked before proceeding, could'nt believe my eyes ! Or is it the earth buckling under my feet?! looks like its difficult to keep any sort of table straight, over time that is. Question is how critical wing twist really is? any bubble level is out by some 1mm over 1m, yet I see it used by many other builders? This means your wing may even be out by 1.5 mm side to side, or am I too critical? how about a digital one? Thanks, Dirk. Piketberg SA 701 SP 5228 Kit ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:51 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Digital level --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Dirk, The simplist bubble level should be perfectly adequate to the job. Level your table and use the same end of the level on the same features right and left. Let symmetry cancel the slight inaccuracies. Your wing isn't going to get real resistant to twist until you get going on the topside, and of course, it'll lock in on the nose skin. No, you're not being too critical, but you should be able to hit 1mm with your level. Get a reference mark for level and switch ends to see exactly how much you're off and again to see how close 1mm is for practical use. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Slabbert" Subject: Zenith-List: Digital level > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" > > > 'Mornin fellow 701 builders, > I'm just about to lay skin on the wings, but worried about the slightest > twist. > After about 4 months my sturdy laminated work table needs adjusting, > checked before proceeding, could'nt believe my eyes ! > Or is it the earth buckling under my feet?! looks like its difficult to > keep any sort of table straight, over time that is. > Question is how critical wing twist really is? any bubble level is out by > some 1mm over 1m, yet I see it used by many other builders? > This means your wing may even be out by 1.5 mm side to side, or am I too > critical? how about a digital one? > Thanks, > Dirk. > Piketberg SA > 701 SP 5228 Kit > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:54 AM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Sand bags --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Larry is correct about wings tested to their structural limit never being flown. Remember, "Metal never forgets." Respectfully, Brandon do no archive __________________________________ www.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:53 AM PST US From: Dabusmith@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Digital level --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com >Question is how critical wing twist really is? any bubble level is out by some 1mm over 1m, yet I see it used by many other builders? Dirk Just get it as close as you can and it will be fine. I flew in a 701 once that was visibly misaligned just about everywhere I looked. It still flew great! I was surprised to see how accurate a bubble level was when checked against my digital level. It is within a tenth of a degree if checked carefully. I used a $20 laser on a camera tripod to level my table. The laser with the line prism installed was mounted on my camera tripod. I leveled the horizontal laser line above the table and then shimmed beneath the table top making all the measurements from the laser line to the table surface the same. I also used the laser line when marking the wing root curved skin for trimming. With the wings installed on the plane it was easy to cast the laser line and then dash a cut line with a sharpie. It made that job simple. Make sure to clamp the trailing edge to something straight when drilling and installing the rivets. The trailing edge can get wavy pretty easy. BTW I like Jerry's idea of using aluminum ladders for supporting the tabletop. I made sawhorses for table support and shortened the legs when building the fuse. I felt a digital level and the laser were money well spent. Dave Smith Graham WA N701XL Do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:36 PM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE; Gross Weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com In a message dated 11/1/04 6:30:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeffpaden@madbbs.com writes: << I was able to climb out today at 2000 FPS and that alone could save a life some day. My last aircraft was called UBU because we had to keep >> 2000 feet per second? Holy Cow ! Thats faster than a bullet! do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:52 PM PST US Received-SPF: none (MAIL-SERVER.madbbs.com: domain of jeffpaden@madbbs.com does not designate any permitted senders) From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gross Weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" >>You keep avoiding the prop type and its associated weight. >>If you have that much power, maybe a fixed pitch would reduce the balance >>weight in the tail. You would still get good climb. Sorry, I did not mean to avoid the issue of the prop. The prop I have installed is a CATTO three blade prop and it is a fixed pitch prop. I would HIGHLY recommend a CATTO prop to any builder. Jeff Paden ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:22 PM PST US Received-SPF: none (MAIL-SERVER.madbbs.com: domain of jeffpaden@madbbs.com does not designate any permitted senders) From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE; Gross Weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" << I was able to climb out today at 2000 FPS and that alone could save a life some day. My last aircraft was called UBU because we had to keep >> 2000 feet per second? Holy Cow ! Thats faster than a bullet! HEHEEH oops... typo there... that should read 2000 FPM Jeff Paden ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:12 PM PST US From: "Ronnie Koonce" Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax engine oil --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" I want to use the Shell Advance VSX 4 oil, but cannot find anywhere to buy it online. Any ideas? Thanks. do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:57 PM PST US From: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" I've got one more detail to work out with the owner and we've got an agreement! I'm going to fly the HDS under Sport pilot regulations. Since I've already got my ticket all I have to do is take a bi-annual flight exam. AIG requires two hours of "flight familiarization" with the owner or a type qualified CFI. I'll do it with the owner and have him sign off my logbook. I've got to get creative with the seat... Maybe a cushion from Oregon Aero made of Visqueen foam.I'll also look to see if I can move the seat itself. I think I could pick up a half inch or maybe more. The other thing I can do is get a headset that doesn't have a headband. I've seen a few that use custom molded ear inserts, the same as high end hearing aids. I think I've got to get REAL familiar with the airplane before I spin it, but I've done spin training (in a Decathalon) and I'm current... Regards, Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hello Jeff, Are you going to fly the HDS as a Sport pilot after all?...Cool. Yes I've done LOTS of spins in the HDS and they are quite delightful. The A/C does speed up quite a bit as the spin develops but it breaks out very nicely. Can't help you on the seat....I almost need a booster cushion....:) The HDS will also roll but it takes a determined effort to get it over....way too much dihedral to do that easily. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Glasserow Subject: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" --> Looks like I might have bought a plane today. Boy, was I impressed with its performance with the Lycoming O-235! It was very gusty, with crosswinds of 12 to 19 Knots on the ground. I held it down and rotated at 60 K to make sure a gust wouldn't stall us. After a 800' roll off we went, bouncing around like the ping pong balls in the lottery machine. Winds aloft were 25 to 40 K in gusts. The plane handled well and was very responsive. Power off stalls were gentle, with a pronounced buffet before break. Once into the stall there was no tendency to drop a wing. Again I was impressed with the stability and quick recovery. Power on stalls were a bit more lively. It seemed like I had to get the plane vertical before it broke. Once into the stall there was a slight tendency to break to the left but it was easily corrected. Has anybody tried a spin? I'd be interested to know how it handled and whether there was a tendency to tighten up if it went past 1 full turn. Landing was a treat... Carried in more power than I normally would and kept my approach speed high to make sure there was plenty of rudder authority. Luckily, the wind stayed down the runway so touchdown was uneventful. Based on the way the plane handled and the quality of the build, I made an offer. I'll find out tomorrow if my offer was accepted. Now, Big question. I'm 5'11 and weigh about 226 fully clothed. My head is bumping the canopy with my headset on and I'll need to do... something... to get my head down. No, taking an inch off the top is out of the question! The seller is 5'9 and weighs 180 and he has no problem with the seat height. The seat bottom and seat back look to be about 3/4" to 1" thick. Can the seat be lowered or canted back to give me a bit more headroom? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Jeff G. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:27 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Just get a good visual on those engine mounts before you do anything radical. Tell me off list how much you paid and hours/condition etc. as mine will be up for sale in about a year. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Glasserow Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" --> I've got one more detail to work out with the owner and we've got an agreement! I'm going to fly the HDS under Sport pilot regulations. Since I've already got my ticket all I have to do is take a bi-annual flight exam. AIG requires two hours of "flight familiarization" with the owner or a type qualified CFI. I'll do it with the owner and have him sign off my logbook. I've got to get creative with the seat... Maybe a cushion from Oregon Aero made of Visqueen foam.I'll also look to see if I can move the seat itself. I think I could pick up a half inch or maybe more. The other thing I can do is get a headset that doesn't have a headband. I've seen a few that use custom molded ear inserts, the same as high end hearing aids. I think I've got to get REAL familiar with the airplane before I spin it, but I've done spin training (in a Decathalon) and I'm current... Regards, Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hello Jeff, Are you going to fly the HDS as a Sport pilot after all?...Cool. Yes I've done LOTS of spins in the HDS and they are quite delightful. The A/C does speed up quite a bit as the spin develops but it breaks out very nicely. Can't help you on the seat....I almost need a booster cushion....:) The HDS will also roll but it takes a determined effort to get it over....way too much dihedral to do that easily. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Glasserow Subject: Zenith-List: Suggestions for lowering seat height in a 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" --> Looks like I might have bought a plane today. Boy, was I impressed with its performance with the Lycoming O-235! It was very gusty, with crosswinds of 12 to 19 Knots on the ground. I held it down and rotated at 60 K to make sure a gust wouldn't stall us. After a 800' roll off we went, bouncing around like the ping pong balls in the lottery machine. Winds aloft were 25 to 40 K in gusts. The plane handled well and was very responsive. Power off stalls were gentle, with a pronounced buffet before break. Once into the stall there was no tendency to drop a wing. Again I was impressed with the stability and quick recovery. Power on stalls were a bit more lively. It seemed like I had to get the plane vertical before it broke. Once into the stall there was a slight tendency to break to the left but it was easily corrected. Has anybody tried a spin? I'd be interested to know how it handled and whether there was a tendency to tighten up if it went past 1 full turn. Landing was a treat... Carried in more power than I normally would and kept my approach speed high to make sure there was plenty of rudder authority. Luckily, the wind stayed down the runway so touchdown was uneventful. Based on the way the plane handled and the quality of the build, I made an offer. I'll find out tomorrow if my offer was accepted. Now, Big question. I'm 5'11 and weigh about 226 fully clothed. My head is bumping the canopy with my headset on and I'll need to do... something... to get my head down. No, taking an inch off the top is out of the question! The seller is 5'9 and weighs 180 and he has no problem with the seat height. The seat bottom and seat back look to be about 3/4" to 1" thick. Can the seat be lowered or canted back to give me a bit more headroom? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Jeff G. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:49 PM PST US Received-SPF: none (MAIL-SERVER.madbbs.com: domain of jeffpaden@madbbs.com does not designate any permitted senders) From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Zenith-List: Oil Temp --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" Hello again list. Can anyone on the list tell me where I may be able to purchase a POH for any aircraft that has a Lycoming IO-540 engine. I just want to make sure that my oil temp, pressure etc are really in the green. Currently my oil temp is running at 200 F and my oil pressure is at 90 psi during climb out and around 80 psi at 2300 rpms. The above sounds ok to me and I have my oil temp red line set to 230 F. By the way, ZAC contacted me today and so far I feel real good about the numbers that I am seeing in my test flights. Also note, that the CH-640 did not go through a sand bag test so all the numbers published are calculated numbers. I'm not sure if that makes me feel better or worse . Jeff Paden ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:24 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE; Gross Weight From: "Lance Gingell" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" Its all that inertia from the weight! ;-) DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE; Gross Weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com In a message dated 11/1/04 6:30:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeffpaden@madbbs.com writes: << I was able to climb out today at 2000 FPS and that alone could save a life some day. My last aircraft was called UBU because we had to keep >> 2000 feet per second? Holy Cow ! Thats faster than a bullet! do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:47 PM PST US From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 heavy left wing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" In confidential conversations with people who are personally aware of the situation, they are adamant that the crash had nothing whatsoever to do with a health problem the pilot may have had. He was a very capable, highly experienced test pilot with over 5000 hours of stick time. If indeed he had a health problem it did not contribute to the crash Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 heavy left wing > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > So what if you are wrong and it is the right wing that is heavy? > > You might do a high speed taxi and see which wing lifts first or which > lifts > easiest with aileron input. > > Still recommend the Flight Advisor Program. > > Incidentally when talking to EAA HQ they seem to think that the 601 that > crashed last week might have been due to a medical problem and nothing > with > the plane itself. > > Cy Galley > EAA Safety Programs Editor > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Miller" > To: "zenithlist matronics" > Subject: Zenith-List: 601 heavy left wing > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > >> >> A number of people have reported heavy left wings on Zodiacs and, like > Jeff Paden, many have described the first flight as "scarey" due to the > problem. I've found scattered references (and post hoc solutions) to the > problem but no authoritative answers as to why it so frequently occurs in > the first place. I'm planning on putting some weight in my right wing > locker for the first flight just in case, but what do you guys think could > be the problem? >> Bob >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:14 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gross Weight --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" That is good news. Now how did your figure that the engine was only 110 pound heavier? Did you measure the actual weight or did you use the manufacturer's figures? The manufacturer is sometimes optimistic. Many times they give the weights without starter, mags, harness, fuel pump, vacuum pump, primer, filters, oil cooler, motor mount bushings, even spark plugs. Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair A Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gross Weight > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" > > > >>You keep avoiding the prop type and its associated weight. > > >>If you have that much power, maybe a fixed pitch would reduce the balance > >>weight in the tail. You would still get good climb. > > Sorry, I did not mean to avoid the issue of the prop. The prop I have > installed is a CATTO three blade prop and it is a fixed pitch prop. > I would HIGHLY recommend a CATTO prop to any builder. > > Jeff Paden > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:34 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Oil Temp --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" I would be my recommendation the overhaul manual and the parts book. The overhaul manual will give you various operating parameters and will have an operating section for the engine. It will also include the power curves, etc. Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair A Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Zenith-List: Oil Temp > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" > > Hello again list. > > Can anyone on the list tell me where I may be able to purchase a POH for any > aircraft that has a Lycoming IO-540 engine. > > I just want to make sure that my oil temp, pressure etc are really in the > green. > > Currently my oil temp is running at 200 F and my oil pressure is at 90 psi > during climb out and around 80 psi at 2300 rpms. > > The above sounds ok to me and I have my oil temp red line set to 230 F. > > By the way, ZAC contacted me today and so far I feel real good about the > numbers that I am seeing in my test flights. > > Also note, that the CH-640 did not go through a sand bag test so all the > numbers published are calculated numbers. I'm not sure if that makes me > feel better or worse . > > Jeff Paden > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:27 PM PST US From: Howard Carter Subject: Zenith-List: Priming Alum for Zenith Builders --> Zenith-List message posted by: Howard Carter Someone mentioned recently that they were using a wash primer before riveting. CAUTION! Wash primers are intended to promote adhesion for painting. They are NOT intended for corrosion protection, and do not meet any of the tests required by MIL Specs. If you have any doubts about this, check with the factory making the primer. Howard Carter ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:00 PM PST US From: Howard Carter Subject: Zenith-List: Electrical and Vacuum Systems 3.60 ALT_MED Misspelled medication name --> Zenith-List message posted by: Howard Carter To Zenith builders interested in electrical and vacuum systems for their project: The November issue of "Aviation Safety" has an article called 'Redundant Singles' that shows the wiring diagram for the Cirrus SR-22, and vacuum system diagrams showing failure modes. Various backup ideas are discussed. References are given to manufacturers who offer various backup systems that should be of interest to anyone designing their aircraft systems. A.S. can be reached at www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/backissues Howard Carter ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:53 PM PST US From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Zenith-List: Took the Plunge! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" I am really happy with this message board. With a community like this available, I took the first step toward a 601 XL. I sent off for the plans. I am planning on getting the tail kit and starting on it sometime before Christmas. HO HO HO. I am a Test Pilot for Boeing and a pilot in the Reserves. I am current in the KC-135 and the 767. I have also been a System Safety Engineer, Accident Investigator and a Designer. I am used to working and flying heavies. I have been dreaming about this for a long time. Been to Oshkosh twice, looked at a lot of kits. I really looked hard at the RVs. They really are great aircraft. But I really don't want to spend that much time building and I am really just looking for a fun, simple, VFR aircraft. The XL looks like it will fit the bill. I really miss just going up on a nice evening, just enjoying the flight and talking to God. This is going to be a great project. Thanks for all of the great info. Cheers Matt Archer Also: I sent off an email to ZAC about the Lycoming vrs Jabaru question. Here is their response: Thanks for your message to Zenith Aircraft Company. You wrote us: > I have been looking at the 601 > XL. I have some questions on the useful load difference between > the Jabaru and the Lycoming. From what I have seen the Jabaru > weighs about 178 and the Lycomning weighs 218, a 40 lb difference. > However you advertise a useful load of 500 for the Lycoming and > 605 for the Jabaru. Why the big difference. The installed O-235 engine (with accessories) weighs approx 280 lbs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Zenith-List: Usefull load > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" > > Looking at ZAKs website I am trying to understand the differences in the > useful load between the Jabaru and the Lycoming configurations. From what > I have seen the Jabaru weighs about 178 and the Lycoming weighs 218, a 40 > lb difference. However they advertise a useful load of 500 for the > Lycoming and 605 for the Jabaru. Why the big difference? Are my numbers > off for the Lycoming? > > O% completed, 99% interested > > Thanks for the info > > Matt > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:27 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Simple Questions: Builders Logs and Vixen File --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa I sand lightly with fine sand paper. Carlos --- VideoFlyer@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com > > Vixen file! Magic tool! Great for deburring! I used regular files, drill > bits, de-burring tools.....in that order....till I finally bought a vixen file. > I still have to use a de-burring tool in the tight spots, but the vixen file > is great for most other jobs. > > Dave ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:25 PM PST US From: "Leo Gates" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax engine oil --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Gates" Shell's web site indicates Shell Advance is available overseas only (not in the US). Lockwood Aviation says, to use Mobil 1 MX4T - 50 Hr. Change if running Unleaded auto fuel only and 33 Hr. change if using 100 LL more than 1/3rd of the time. -------Original Message------- From: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax engine oil --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" I want to use the Shell Advance VSX 4 oil, but cannot find anywhere to buy it online. Any ideas? Thanks. do not archive ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:59 PM PST US From: xl Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Took the Plunge! --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl Congratulations! That's my take on it too. I couldn't spend 3x as much time and 2x the money to build an rv. I don't have either. And an xl is cheaper to fly than an rv. It is ~33% slower but I'm used to it - I know what I'm missing. Joe E N633Z @ BFI 131 hours P.S. I plan to measure my dihedral and report - I do think that 1 wing is lower than the other. Last weekend I replaced the tail light socket (the old one was a p.o.s. - piece of s**t) and my cracked landing light lens. And I went flying! do not archive On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, Matt & Jo wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" > .........snip ....snip > have been dreaming about this for a long time. Been to Oshkosh twice, > looked at a lot of kits. I really looked hard at the RVs. They really are > great aircraft. But I really don't want to spend that much time building > and I am really just looking for a fun, simple, VFR aircraft. The XL looks > like it will fit the bill. I really miss just going up on a nice evening, > just enjoying the flight and talking to God. This is going to be a great > project. > > Thanks for all of the great info. > > Cheers > > Matt Archer >