---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/13/04: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:21 AM - Re: 601XL Landing & Nose Gear (Benford2@aol.com) 2. 07:01 AM - door window (Ronnie Koonce) 3. 07:19 AM - 701 bungee (Ronnie Koonce) 4. 10:01 AM - Re: 601XL Landing & Nose Gear (Stanley Challgren) 5. 11:35 AM - Re: 701 bungee (Chuck Deiterich) 6. 11:39 AM - Re: door window (Chuck Deiterich) 7. 11:43 AM - CH701 Question (Howard Carter) 8. 02:42 PM - Rivet questions (Keith Norton) 9. 03:56 PM - Re: Rivet questions (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 10. 04:10 PM - Re: Rivet questions (Ed Kramer) 11. 05:15 PM - Re: Rivet questions (Rico Voss) 12. 07:04 PM - Re: Rivet questions (Gary Craze) 13. 07:45 PM - Re: Rivet questions (Roger Roy) 14. 07:54 PM - Wheel Fairings (Greg Ferris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:52 AM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Landing & Nose Gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 11/12/2004 1:30:07 PM Mountain Standard Time, fjones@sympatico.ca writes: > > Is anyone else having trouble gently setting the nose gear down on > landing? It seems that no matter how hard I try and no matter how gently > the main gear comes down, the nose just wants to come down right away > and there's no way to let it down nicely. I'm assuming this is a > feature. > > Frank Jones > C-GYXQ 601XL 912S > > 801's do the same thing.. Must be a Chris Heinz feature.... Ben Haas N801BH do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:42 AM PST US From: "Ronnie Koonce" Subject: Zenith-List: door window --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" Has anyone put a sliding or otherwise opening window in a 701 or 801? I have the bubble doors, looking for ANY ideas. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:14 AM PST US From: "Ronnie Koonce" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 bungee --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" Anyone know a part # for the bungee, possibly from aircraft spruce? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:04 AM PST US From: Stanley Challgren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Landing & Nose Gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren Frank: Our 601 HDS has much the same problem. I believe it is due to the forward CG that normally exists on our aircraft. We finally put a 5 pound lead weight just forward of the tail skag and that reduced the rate of nose down movement after touchdown. We have a heavier battery in the engine compartment than many and either moving it to just behind the seat or replacing it with a smaller battery would probably have the same impact on the landing CG. However, we have had no start problems as many report on and so are reluctant to change what is working. BTW, Jeff Small, our most knowledgeable 601 spokesman, fabricated the lead weight for us. Stan 601HDS/Jab 3300 160 hours On Nov 12, 2004, at 1:24 PM, Frank Jones wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" > > Is anyone else having trouble gently setting the nose gear down on > landing? It seems that no matter how hard I try and no matter how > gently > the main gear comes down, the nose just wants to come down right away > and there's no way to let it down nicely. I'm assuming this is a > feature. > > Frank Jones > C-GYXQ 601XL 912S > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:19 AM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 bungee --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" Ronnie ZAC supplies a 9010HD for the 701 with a Rotax 912. On my 701 with the lighter Jabiru 2200 I use a 8097. I have 140 landings over two years and no sag, but I have flexed it 3 or 4 inches. ACS has the #9010HD in their catalog. Chuck D. N701TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Koonce" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 bungee > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" > > Anyone know a part # for the bungee, possibly from aircraft spruce? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:40 AM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: door window --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" Ronnie, I put a round (~3") snap vent in each door. They work great even on hot days as soon as the engine starts. ACS P/N CC3251. Chuck D. N701TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Koonce" Subject: Zenith-List: door window > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" > > Has anyone put a sliding or otherwise opening window in a 701 or 801? I have the bubble doors, looking for ANY ideas. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:51 AM PST US From: Howard Carter Subject: Zenith-List: CH701 Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Howard Carter Has anyone built a Pegastol wing and tried it on a CH701? Chris Heintz says he doubts the design is really good for +9g, and points out that the rest of the airplane remains a +6g design.. The automatic slat feature means that the fixed slat position compromise between best lift and minimum drag is eliminated. Dedalius claims 21 mph stall speed and 125 mph Vne. Comments? Howard Carter ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:10 PM PST US From: Keith Norton Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Norton I'm working on my 701 rudder and I have some riveting questions. First, has anyone built a Zenith using primarily solid rivets? I have lots of experience and the tools for using them and I don't like Avex rivets so far. I know there are some places where a blind rivet is necessary because of access but are there any problems with using solid rivets? I also wonder if smaller solid rivets could be substituted since they have more shear strength than the same size Avex. This would make driving them easier on the thin stock. Second, when I pull the Avex rivets with either a hand tool or the Zenith supplied gun, they always leave a small gap between the outer edge of the rivet and the skin. Is that really how it is supposed to look? I've taken the pressure on the gun all the way to 90psi and it seems to me that it pulls very weakly. The stem doesn't come out of the back of the gun but rather stays in the nose. That doesn't seem right. I certainly don't have a problem with the gun jumping, it barely pulls the rivets. I am using the Zenith heads and regulator. The regulator is wide open, although I've tried every setting. Thanks for any help, Keith Norton ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:50 PM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com In a message dated 11/13/2004 keithnorton@mac.com writes: <<>> <<>>> Something ain't right!!!! <<<>>> Gravity will pull the stem out the back...or out the front....depending on which way the gun is pointed after you release the trigger. I have had some "purists" in my shop who turn up their noses at the Avex rivets. One even said that I would have a "much better plane" if I would swicth to solid rivets. To each his own, I guess. But it's fun to watch their reaction when I "pull" a line of 30 rivets in 60 seconds! Dave ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:59 PM PST US From: "Ed Kramer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Norton > >First, I'm working on my 701 rudder and I have some riveting questions. > First, has anyone built a Zenith using primarily solid rivets? I have > lots of experience and the tools for >using them and I don't like Avex > rivets so far. I know there are some places where a blind rivet is > >necessary because of access but are there any problems with using solid > rivets? I also wonder if smaller >solid rivets could be substituted since > they have more shear strength than the same size Avex. Keith, I used the rivets the designer called for which I believe is the best option. So far I've completed the rudder, both wings & 50% of the flaperons. In my opinion the airplane is not designed to use solid rivets because access to both sides of the material is rare. I don't think you want to buck solid rivets on .016 skins. Chris says a good rule of thumb is to use a ratio of 5- blind rivets to 3-solid rivets of the same size or use a larger blind rivet to achieve equal strength. So, I guess a smaller solid rivet would be acceptable. > Second, when I pull the Avex rivets with either a hand tool or the Zenith > supplied gun, they always leave a >small gap between the outer edge of the > rivet and the skin. Is that really how it is supposed to look? I use a pneumatic puller & the rivets are flush to the material. Maybe your canting the rivet head or not applying enough downward pressure on the rivet to the material. Hope this helps! Ed Kramer West Seneca, NY CH 701 edair701@adelphia.net Build Status: Stalled! Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing. Working On: Flaperons 50% ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:40 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=NzmhAWwN09qGU3FIgx14qXORmdP6g+xmNJljysisio2cQDyE3zyTeDwU9YzEk67nEzoAffH94FYvJHB2uduT/j04FDaBj4K3KNjDn2iG1In9b7DeNva1QgOpMf58lkHG7te65lsRKWqPSqJRQp4nWiznWIY2AKyHsa1HZGAXskI= ; From: Rico Voss Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Norton > < > > First, has anyone built a Zenith using primarily > solid rivets? > Keith-- This is probably well-covered in the archives, but I think the bottom line is: 1. If you want to put the time and effort into bucking the flush rivets in order to have a fast plane, you should be looking at RVs. The Chris Heinz designs are elegant in their simplicity of building, not in speed. > Second, when I pull the Avex rivets with either a > hand tool or the Zenith > > supplied gun, they always leave a >small gap > between the outer edge of the > > rivet and the skin. Is that really how it is > supposed to look? 2. Sounds like you might not be using the domed head on the rivet gun. If the dome is deep enough, the edge of the rivet should be pulled (pushed) down flush. Hmmm...[just re-read "Zenith gun"]... are you using the right sized head for the rivet? 3. Like Ed said, after pulling, the rivet stem ends up where-ever gravity takes it -- at least on mine. good luck, Rico, XL/3300, fusing do not archive __________________________________ www.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:07 PM PST US From: "Gary Craze" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivet questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" This will be the third plane I've done using Avex blind rivets, and I know of at least four others. All are in perfect shape, have hundreds of hours on them and have never had any type of structural or skin failure. No disrespect to the RV guys, but...those "purists" who don't expand their knowledge or building horizons are left to only one type of building medium that hasn't changed much in over 50 years. I will say that the gun from Zenith seems to pull softer than the $50 unit I bought from Harbor Freight several years ago. But I'm pulling the A4 rivets at 40psi and the A5 rivets at 50psi and the stems are popping fine with the Zenith gun. Also, like below, unless I'm pulling horizontally or upside down, the stems will fall back out the front. If I'm pulling rivets straight down, I don't even bother with the plastic cup on the back and just pull the rivet and then let the stem fall back out the front. As far as the problem below regarding the gap, how big is that gap? Also, you say that you are using the Zenith regulator, which really isn't a regulator at all. You need to use an inline guage right at the gun to see what you are pulling at and read it when you pull the trigger. It sounds like you aren't getting much psi at the gun. Rgds, Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com In a message dated 11/13/2004 keithnorton@mac.com writes: <<>> <<>>> Something ain't right!!!! <<<>>> Gravity will pull the stem out the back...or out the front....depending on which way the gun is pointed after you release the trigger. I have had some "purists" in my shop who turn up their noses at the Avex rivets. One even said that I would have a "much better plane" if I would swicth to solid rivets. To each his own, I guess. But it's fun to watch their reaction when I "pull" a line of 30 rivets in 60 seconds! Dave ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:41 PM PST US From: "Roger Roy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet questions Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:38:06 -0500 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" Gary, Avex rivets are a way of life as I see it. I was once and still am hung up on the RV-9, I even had the audacity to as a sales Rep at the Company why I should not use Avex rivets throughout the kit, Geez Louise you might of thought that I was asking to reinvent the wheel. I think you could build one of those aircraft in 2 to 3 hindered hours. After building three aircraft I think that makes you an authority on this subject. Thanks for the input, Cheers RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Craze" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivet questions > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" > > > This will be the third plane I've done using Avex blind rivets, and I > know of at least four others. All are in perfect shape, have hundreds > of hours on them and have never had any type of structural or skin > failure. > > No disrespect to the RV guys, but...those "purists" who don't expand > their knowledge or building horizons are left to only one type of > building medium that hasn't changed much in over 50 years. > > I will say that the gun from Zenith seems to pull softer than the $50 > unit I bought from Harbor Freight several years ago. But I'm pulling > the A4 rivets at 40psi and the A5 rivets at 50psi and the stems are > popping fine with the Zenith gun. > > Also, like below, unless I'm pulling horizontally or upside down, the > stems will fall back out the front. If I'm pulling rivets straight > down, I don't even bother with the plastic cup on the back and just pull > the rivet and then let the stem fall back out the front. > > As far as the problem below regarding the gap, how big is that gap? > Also, you say that you are using the Zenith regulator, which really > isn't a regulator at all. You need to use an inline guage right at the > gun to see what you are pulling at and read it when you pull the > trigger. It sounds like you aren't getting much psi at the gun. > > Rgds, > Gary > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > VideoFlyer@aol.com > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet questions > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com > > In a message dated 11/13/2004 keithnorton@mac.com writes: > > << supplied > gun, they always leave a small gap between the outer edge of the rivet > and > the skin.>>> > > << to me > that it pulls very weakly. >>>> > > Something ain't right!!!! > > > <<< the > nose. That doesn't seem right.>>>> > > Gravity will pull the stem out the back...or out the front....depending > on > which way the gun is pointed after you release the trigger. > > I have had some "purists" in my shop who turn up their noses at the Avex > > rivets. One even said that I would have a "much better plane" if I > would swicth > to solid rivets. To each his own, I guess. > > But it's fun to watch their reaction when I "pull" a line of 30 rivets > in 60 > seconds! > > Dave > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:08 PM PST US From: "Greg Ferris" Subject: Zenith-List: Wheel Fairings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" I have 2 of the Zenith Wheel Fairings that I would like to sell. I have decided not to use them. Zenith sells them for $99 each; I'll sell both for $125 +shipping. Please contact me off-list if you are interested. Thanks Greg