Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:21 AM - Rivet questions (Dabusmith@aol.com)
2. 05:46 AM - Re: Rivet questions (Roger Roy)
3. 06:16 AM - Re: 601XL Landing & Nose Gear (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
4. 07:03 AM - Re: Rivet questions (Dave)
5. 07:14 AM - How to modify the riveter head (Matt & Jo)
6. 07:55 AM - Re: How to modify the riveter head (Carlos Sa)
7. 08:55 AM - Re: How to modify the riveter head (Randy L. Thwing)
8. 01:24 PM - Jabiru USA's New Home (Pete Krotje)
9. 02:22 PM - Flying the 601 (Michel Therrien)
10. 02:45 PM - Re: Jabiru USA's New Home (Jeffrey Davidson)
11. 03:44 PM - Nose gear dropping on landing (Dr. Perry Morrison)
12. 04:07 PM - Re: Nose gear dropping on landing (Dave Alberti)
13. 04:48 PM - Re: Nose gear dropping on landing (George Swinford)
14. 04:55 PM - 701 Lexan Windows / Fuel Caps / Paint Questions (Walt Cannon)
15. 06:39 PM - Re: Nose gear dropping on landing (Frank Jones)
16. 07:21 PM - Re: 701 Lexan Windows / Fuel Caps / Paint Questions (Mike Sinclair)
17. 08:23 PM - Nose gear drop (George Swinford)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com
>First, has anyone built a Zenith using primarily solid rivets?
Yes, you can substitute the next size smaller solid rivet for the Avex.
3/32 solid replaces 1/8 Avex for the same pitch. I put solid rivets in all the
main structural areas. I did that mainly because solid rivets were cheaper.
>Second, when I pull the Avex rivets with either a hand tool or the Zenith
supplied gun, they always leave a small gap between the outer edge of the
rivet and the skin.
No gaps allowed. When your finished and flying, gaps under rivets would
loosen and lead to corrosion. The gaps would also drive you nuts when you tried
to prep for painting. The rivet puller head should be shaped until there is
no gap under the pulled rivet head. Most guys install some rivets in a piece
of scrap material and check them for gaps and voids by cutting the rivet in
half vertically with a cutoff wheel or sander. You will then be able to
inspect the shaped rivet head.
Dave Smith
Graham WA
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Subject: | Re: Rivet questions |
Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:41:40 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
Hi Dave,
Your rivet explaination is valid but do you really think ZAC does all that
when they are building an aircraft for a customer? When we purchase rivet
pulling tools be it hand or air are not the milled heads checked for
accuracy? Annual/Acceptance checks, and pre-flight, wether it be solid or
pull rivet are to be inspected for looseness, broken, missing, corroded
rivets.
RJ
----- Original Message -----
From: <Dabusmith@aol.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet questions
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com
>
> >First, has anyone built a Zenith using primarily solid rivets?
>
> Yes, you can substitute the next size smaller solid rivet for the
> Avex.
> 3/32 solid replaces 1/8 Avex for the same pitch. I put solid rivets in
> all the
> main structural areas. I did that mainly because solid rivets were
> cheaper.
>
> >Second, when I pull the Avex rivets with either a hand tool or the
> >Zenith
> supplied gun, they always leave a small gap between the outer edge of the
> rivet and the skin.
>
> No gaps allowed. When your finished and flying, gaps under rivets would
> loosen and lead to corrosion. The gaps would also drive you nuts when you
> tried
> to prep for painting. The rivet puller head should be shaped until there
> is
> no gap under the pulled rivet head. Most guys install some rivets in a
> piece
> of scrap material and check them for gaps and voids by cutting the rivet
> in
> half vertically with a cutoff wheel or sander. You will then be able to
> inspect the shaped rivet head.
>
> Dave Smith
> Graham WA
>
>
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>
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Subject: | Re: 601XL Landing & Nose Gear |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
One reason for this is that the main wheels are so far behind the CG. It gets worse
the further forward the CG is. This is probably done to prevent the tail
from hitting the ground when you climb into the plane over the back of the wing.
You don't want your weight on the step to shift CG back to a point behind the
mains. The Cessnas I usually fly don't have this problem because you enter
a Cessna from a door that is right over the main wheels. I am thinking about turning
my main gear spring around so that it sweeps forward. This would move the
mains about four inches forward and I still think I can climb in with out dropping
the tail.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In phase I testing.
do not archive
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones"
>
> Is anyone else having trouble gently setting the nose gear down on
> landing? It seems that no matter how hard I try and no matter how gently
> the main gear comes down, the nose just wants to come down right away
> and there's no way to let it down nicely. I'm assuming this is a
> feature.
>
> Frank Jones
> C-GYXQ 601XL 912S
>
One reason for this is that the main wheels are so far behind the CG. It gets worse
the further forward the CG is. This is probablydone to prevent the tail from
hitting the ground when you climb into the plane over the back of the wing.
You don't want your weight on the step to shift CG back to a point behind the
mains. The Cessnas I usually fly don't have this problem because you enter a
Cessna from a door that is right over the main wheels. I am thinking about turning
my main gear spring around so that it sweeps forward. This would move the
mains about four inches forward and I still think I can climb in with out dropping
the tail.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In phase I testing.
do not archive
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" <FJONES@SYMPATICO.CA>
Is anyone else having trouble gently setting the nose gear down on
landing? It seems that no matter how hard I try and no matter how gently
the main gear comes down, the nose just wants to come down right away
and there's no way to let it down nicely. I'm assuming this is a
feature.
Frank Jones
C-GYXQ 601XL 912S
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Subject: | Re: Rivet questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" <daberti@execpc.com>
Something is wrong with the head on your rivet gun. Either you are
using the A5 head to pull A4 or it's not made correctly. Especially
if you have a true 90 psi on the gun. The fact of the rivet stem
staying in the gun is exactly how I like it! I used the small plastic
parts bins available at most hardware stores to hold clecos as I put
them in and out. I used a second to catch the stems as I release the
handle. This way you have no stems floating around where you don't
want them or need them. Rivet stems have an affinity for rubber
tires, be it the airplane or the family car and it's amazing how much
a beer can full of them weighs (that's where I put them later).
Dave
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Norton <keithnorton@mac.com>
> Second, when I pull the Avex rivets with either a hand tool or the
Zenith supplied gun, they always leave a small gap between the outer
edge of the rivet and the skin. The stem doesn't come out of the back
of the gun but rather stays in the nose.
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Subject: | How to modify the riveter head |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
Hello all,
Well I have the plans and the Tail Kit is on the way! I have been assembling tools. I went down to the Yard Store here in Wichita. They have a lot of great stuff. Got used clecos for .25 each. They are a great source and have a website. http://www.yardstore.com/
I picked up a rivet gun at Harbor Freight. I am wondering the best way to modify
the head for the domed rivets. I am sure that everyone has gone through this.
What is the best way to do this???
Thanks for the help
Cheers
Matt
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DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=vjFQVegsz8eQC+E4Tfzy9gTvN0/7IKgCnVp2zSIGktkaVMW8YmI7BBD6qt36Ue/5qIKzKriiJ4ofhA0kgok6HYPxhxkE1XRD1IKPI7/MbmfkCCJc3qNG311uVDnlhzzH7Qjyhd+st4ODshxxcYBHDdFCO+XdxS/V5L+7Czn4skQ=
;
Subject: | Re: How to modify the riveter head |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Matt, check Michel Therrien web site. Searching the archives will probably help,
too.
Carlos
--- Matt & Jo <archermj@swbell.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
>
> Hello all,
>
> Well I have the plans and the Tail Kit is on the way! I have been assembling
tools. I went
> down to the Yard Store here in Wichita. They have a lot of great stuff. Got
used clecos for .25
> each. They are a great source and have a website. http://www.yardstore.com/
>
> I picked up a rivet gun at Harbor Freight. I am wondering the best way to modify
the head for
> the domed rivets. I am sure that everyone has gone through this. What is the
best way to do
> this???
_-=====================================================================
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Subject: | Re: How to modify the riveter head |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
I am wondering the best way to modify the head for the domed rivets. What
is the best way to do this???
From the Zenith archives:
The Dremel works fine and fast, use a small green round ball (silicon
carbide) or any other stone that has a point or round end, Put the riviet
gun head in the lathe chuck and while spinning it, fire off the moto-tool,
hold it with both hands braced against whatever is nearby, and shape the end
in a nice conical shape, starting from the hole in the center and working
outward, keep the cone shallow, you can always go deeper. No gottem lathe?
Sure you do, put your fastest turning pistol grip drill motor in your
workbench vise, usually upside down with pistol grip up, (up is towards the
sky for you airplane builders!) tighten vise enough to hold drill case, not
crushing it where the armature will never turn again! Place the rivet head
in the drill chuck and lock the trigger back and grind away. Takes longer
to describe than to do, finish with emery cloth if your stones grind course.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, 701/plans
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|
"'Zenith Aircraft Co'" <info@zenithair.com>, <zenith-list@matronics.com>,
<info@sonex-ltd.com>, <info@jabirucanada.com>, <info@jabirupacific.com>,
<info@suncoastjabiru.com>, <info@titanaircraft.com>,
"Mark & Dawn Kilpatrick" <texnliltex@yahoo.com>,
"Beth & Chris Cawelti" <chris.cawelti@sbcglobal.net>,
<sandy@grtavionics.com>
Subject: | Jabiru USA's New Home |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Beginning December 1st, Jabiru USA Flight Center, LLC will be located in our
new home at the Shelbyville, Tennessee airport. We will be closed from
Thanksgiving day, November 25th thru Tuesday, November 30th to complete the
move.
New address:
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
2842 Highway 231 North
Shelbyville, Tennessee, 37160
931-680-2800
The email address and the 800-JABIRU1 number will remain the same (although
it may take a few days to get the 800 number transferred)
Please take the opportunity to stop in and visit if you are in Middle
Tennessee (50 miles south of Nashville)
Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA Flight Center, LLC
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|
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;
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Hi Group!!! I'm still walking several feet above
ground.... I did my solo cross-country flight today!
:) (big time smile).
Went to Sherbrooke and then went to Trois-rivires.
Very nice trip and Trois-rivire is a very nice
airport! I'll definitely go back there. Final leg to
Mascouche was uneventful except for the fact that
there was zillions of other planes in the sky.
It is amazing that at every airport I went, people
came by to see the plane. On a previous cross-country
flight with my instructor, a controller (Ottawa
terminal) even maintained a discussion about Zodiacs
and my engine for 15 minutes! He is about to order a
kit for a 601 XL.
Next step, pre-test on tuesday... and I forgot
books/notes at the airport today...
With nearly 15 hours of flight training (solo and
dual) in the last week, we can call that a productive
week!
Michel
do not archive
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
www.yahoo.com
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Subject: | Re: Jabiru USA's New Home |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Davidson" <jeffrey.davidson@earthlink.net>
Congratulations on your new location!
Jeff Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
<info@zenithair.com>; <zenith-list@matronics.com>; <info@sonex-ltd.com>;
<info@jabirucanada.com>; <info@jabirupacific.com>;
<info@suncoastjabiru.com>; <info@titanaircraft.com>; "Mark & Dawn
Kilpatrick" <texnliltex@yahoo.com>; "Beth & Chris Cawelti"
<chris.cawelti@sbcglobal.net>; <sandy@grtavionics.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru USA's New Home
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
>
> Beginning December 1st, Jabiru USA Flight Center, LLC will be located in
our
> new home at the Shelbyville, Tennessee airport. We will be closed from
> Thanksgiving day, November 25th thru Tuesday, November 30th to complete
the
> move.
>
>
> New address:
>
>
> Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
>
> 2842 Highway 231 North
>
> Shelbyville, Tennessee, 37160
>
> 931-680-2800
>
>
> The email address and the 800-JABIRU1 number will remain the same
(although
> it may take a few days to get the 800 number transferred)
>
>
> Please take the opportunity to stop in and visit if you are in Middle
> Tennessee (50 miles south of Nashville)
>
>
> Pete Krotje
>
> Jabiru USA Flight Center, LLC
>
>
> _-=====================================================================
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|
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;
Subject: | Nose gear dropping on landing |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" <perrymorrison@yahoo.com>
My HD has always had this feature and never flies off. Always needs a bit of
a tug on the stick to rotate on t/off. However I have discovered the engine mount
places
the thrust line 3 deg below horizontal and I hope after correcting it the behaviour
will disappear.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 11/12/2004 1:30:07 PM Mountain Standard Time,
fjones@sympatico.ca writes:
>
> Is anyone else having trouble gently setting the nose gear down on
> landing? It seems that no matter how hard I try and no matter how
gently
> the main gear comes down, the nose just wants to come down right away
> and there's no way to let it down nicely. I'm assuming this is a
> feature.
>
> Frank Jones
> C-GYXQ 601XL 912S
>
>
801's do the same thing.. Must be a Chris Heinz feature....
Ben Haas N801BH do not archive
__________________________
Dr. Perry Morrison
Morrison Associates Pty Ltd
0408892638
perrymorrison@yahoo.com
__________________________
_-=====================================================================
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_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
_-_-= List Contribution Web Site
_-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_-_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-_-=====================================================================
_-= - The Zenith-List Email Forum -
_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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|
Subject: | Nose gear dropping on landing |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
On my HD I just have to give it a little more elevator as the wheels touch
down. Just holding the position is not enough to hold it off, I have to
give it the additional pull.
Dave
> Is anyone else having trouble gently setting the nose gear down on
> landing?
_-=====================================================================
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_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
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_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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|
Subject: | Re: Nose gear dropping on landing |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
As I remember my old airplane design texts, the nose gear should be carrying
5% to 10% of the airplane's weight. Below 5% nose wheel steering may be
poor. Above 10% or so problems of take off rotation and nose gear slapdown
may show up. Has anyone calculated or measured this at a typical landing
weight and CG. This would help to answer the question "Did Chris put the
main gear too far aft?" Somehow I doubt that he did. If he excceded 10% or
so, I'll bet he had a good reason for doing so.
FWIW-George
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Perry Morrison" <perrymorrison@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Nose gear dropping on landing
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison"
<perrymorrison@yahoo.com>
>
>
> My HD has always had this feature and never flies off. Always needs a bit
of
>
> a tug on the stick to rotate on t/off. However I have discovered the
engine mount places
>
> the thrust line 3 deg below horizontal and I hope after correcting it the
behaviour
>
> will disappear.
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/12/2004 1:30:07 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> fjones@sympatico.ca writes:
>
>
> >
> > Is anyone else having trouble gently setting the nose gear down on
> > landing? It seems that no matter how hard I try and no matter how
> gently
> > the main gear comes down, the nose just wants to come down right away
> > and there's no way to let it down nicely. I'm assuming this is a
> > feature.
> >
> > Frank Jones
> > C-GYXQ 601XL 912S
> >
> >
>
> 801's do the same thing.. Must be a Chris Heinz feature....
>
> Ben Haas N801BH do not archive
>
>
> __________________________
> Dr. Perry Morrison
> Morrison Associates Pty Ltd
> 0408892638
> perrymorrison@yahoo.com
> __________________________
>
>
> _-=====================================================================
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> _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
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> _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
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> _-> _-= Thank you for your generous support!
> _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> _-> _-=====================================================================
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> _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
> _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
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>
>
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|
Subject: | 701 Lexan Windows / Fuel Caps / Paint Questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Walt Cannon" <grnlake@earthlink.net>
Greetings all,
Three areas that I would like to tap into the experience of those on the
list:
1) I am not really happy with the "per drawing" design of my 701 doors, the
lexan windows, and the underwing fuel drains. I know that I am not the only
one that has crazing and cracks on my windows as a result of gasoline from
the drains. When the doors are up and latched and I am taxiing, they can
easily bounce up far enough to hit the drains and cause some fuel to dribble
onto the window. The drains can also dribble if the doors are left in the up
position. Has anyone come up with any ideas to deal with this? A bumper in
the back that prevents the door from hitting the drain? A different drain?
Plexiglas windows instead of lexan (better gas resistance)? What are folks
with the bubble windows doing...it seems like with the window bulged out,
the problem would be worse. How about those of you using gas struts to hold
the doors up?
2) Do other 701 drivers find that the Zenith provided gas caps seem to
siphon or leak some fuel during flight? I know they are vented on purpose
and I am seeing some evidence of leakage on my upper wing skins. Has anyone
created more traditional sealed caps with a forward facing vent pressure
tube installed?
3) I am contemplating have a auto body shop spray my 701 this winter. Most
of them are not experienced with alodining so I thought about going with a
self etching primer and compatible paint system like I did on an RV-6 I
built a few years ago. Any good recent experiences with this kind of
primer/paint approach?
Thanks in advance
Walt Cannon
701 912S - 60 hrs
_-=====================================================================
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|
Subject: | Nose gear dropping on landing |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" <fjones@sympatico.ca>
My nose has 271 lbs on it when empty. And the total a/c weight is 749.
Certainly well north of 10%. I suspect the placement of the main gear is
the main issue, but as noted it's likely where it is due to the
necessary rear step.
I'll see if I can train myself to pull back a bit after the main gear is
down as has been suggested. Thanks.
Frank Jones
>As I remember my old airplane design texts, the nose gear should be
>carrying
>5% to 10% of the airplane's weight. Below 5% nose wheel steering may
be
>poor. Above 10% or so problems of take off rotation and nose gear
>slapdown
>may show up. Has anyone calculated or measured this at a typical
landing
>weight and CG. This would help to answer the question "Did Chris put
the
>main gear too far aft?" Somehow I doubt that he did. If he excceded
10% or
>so, I'll bet he had a good reason for doing so.
>
>FWIW-George
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Subject: | Re: 701 Lexan Windows / Fuel Caps / Paint Questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Walt
I came up with a fairly simple solution to the wing drain fitting problem, just
took a 1.25" fishing bobber, cut in half and throw away the plunger end. Grind
out the excess from the middle of the bobber and put about an 1/8"-1/4" hole in
the clip end. Paint to match your paint job, cut a hole in the window to fit and
epoxy into place. Works great but does get lots of people asking if it is some
kind of special vent when the door is closed. At least the window does not hit
the drain and I have had no fuel dribbles.
Walt Cannon wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Walt Cannon" <grnlake@earthlink.net>
>
> Greetings all,
>
> Three areas that I would like to tap into the experience of those on the
> list:
>
> 1) I am not really happy with the "per drawing" design of my 701 doors, the
> lexan windows, and the underwing fuel drains. I know that I am not the only
> one that has crazing and cracks on my windows as a result of gasoline from
> the drains. When the doors are up and latched and I am taxiing, they can
> easily bounce up far enough to hit the drains and cause some fuel to dribble
> onto the window. The drains can also dribble if the doors are left in the up
> position. Has anyone come up with any ideas to deal with this? A bumper in
> the back that prevents the door from hitting the drain? A different drain?
> Plexiglas windows instead of lexan (better gas resistance)? What are folks
> with the bubble windows doing...it seems like with the window bulged out,
> the problem would be worse. How about those of you using gas struts to hold
> the doors up?
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
Frank:
The important consideration is the percent of weight on the nose gear at flying
weights. Pilot and passenger should move the CG aft some. The effect of full
or partial fuel will depend on your tank arrangement, of course.
George
Do not archive
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