---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/18/04: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:00 AM - Re: Re: CH701 Question (Howard Carter) 2. 06:42 AM - Re: Falling Subaru's (Don Walker) 3. 07:02 AM - Re: CH701 Question (Paul Tipton) 4. 07:07 AM - Re: Falling Subaru's (Larry McFarland) 5. 07:48 AM - Re: Falling Subaru's (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 6. 09:22 AM - corvair college (louiscfi@comcast.net) 7. 09:49 AM - Re: corvair college (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 8. 11:37 AM - Re: corvair college (Larry McFarland) 9. 12:28 PM - Re: Falling Subaru's (Larry McFarland) 10. 12:54 PM - 701 rod ends (Flydog1966@aol.com) 11. 02:13 PM - Re: Falling Subaru's (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 12. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: Pre First Flight Training (Garrou, Douglas) 13. 06:32 PM - Re:701 rod ends (RURUNY@aol.com) 14. 08:34 PM - Tinting canopy? () 15. 10:05 PM - Spring gear (Brandon Tucker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:27 AM PST US From: Howard Carter Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH701 Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Howard Carter To Ray St-Laurent: Ray, have you reached the point where you have no further use for the jig that came with the kit? I will be starting my build in Dec, so could use it in late Feb05(?). Perhaps we could make a deal. Where are you located? Howard Carter ray.stlaurent@vsea.com wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: ray.stlaurent@vsea.com > >I too am happily building a Pegastol wing. I put on my mechanical >engineers hard hat before looking at the stress analysis calculations on >their website. Their calculations are based on a +6G design loading (+9G >ultimate) as claimed. The analysis was done for a weight of 1058 lb. I >discounted their claim of the same +6G rating at a higher 1200 lb gross >weight. The website also shows the derated loading factor for weights >beyond 1200 lb. Interestingly these ratings are correctly based on the >1058 baseline weight not 1200. The bottom line is that you should be able >to surpass the 4.5G rating even at a gross weight of 1200 lb. This of >course assumes the rest of the aircraft will not be overstressed at 1200 >lb. > >However in the material I received from them I did find some deviations >from the design as specified. I am in conversation with the manufacturers >on this and there remains only one issue. I will report all my findings >here when I have received a final answer. For now I would say to any >existing builders to check part A102 (strut attachment). Mine came with >instructions and parts using 4 AN3 bolts. I will be changing to AN4 >bolts,.as specified in the stress analysis document, to preserve the >design load capability. > >- Ray St-Laurent > > > Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) RE: CH701 Question >Subject: Re: CH701 Question >From: Larry (lrm@isp.com) >Date: Wed Nov 17 - 6:38 AM > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" > >There is a list of them on the PegaStol site. You could e-mail them, >that's >what I did, some will answer, some won't . I did not have any negative >comments excepts when it can to communications. My serial number is 32, >so >I assume there are at least 31 others. I mentioned them to Zenith several >times and just got the brush off. Of course I didn't expect any raving >reviews, and would be very suspicious of any warnings too. It's all about >the money and sales, and I would do the same in their shoes. Anyone who >remotely understands aerodynamics can see the advantages of the PegaStol >wings over the Zenith wings. I haven't finished my wings yet, but I can >assure you that the quality of the kit is great, instructions are lacking, >communications is almost non existence. But, I am managing to figure it >out >anyway. Larry N1345L >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Howard Carter" >To: >Subject: Re: CH701 Question > > > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Howard Carter >> >>Larry, >>I was referring to the Ultimate loading of 9g.. 6 x 1.5 = 9. >>I was not expecting any one at Zenair to be positive, only to warn me if >>there is something critical I need to look out for. Where are the "lot >>of builders who have them"? So far, you are only the second builder to >>say something about the Pegastols. >> Howard Carter >>CH701 20% >> >>Larry wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" >>> >>>PegaStols are +6g-4g, don't know where you got the +9. I have talked >>> >>> >to >a > > >>>lot of builders who have them and it appears that their claims are well >>>founded. >>>You really can't expect Chris or any Zenith employee to say any thing >>>positive about PegaStol, can you? >>> >>>Larry N1345L >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Howard Carter" >>>To: >>>Subject: CH701 Question >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Howard Carter >>>> >>>>Has anyone built a Pegastol wing and tried it on a CH701? Chris >>>> >>>> >Heintz > > >>>>says he doubts the design is really good for +9g, and points out that >>>>the rest of the airplane remains a +6g design.. >>>>The automatic slat feature means that the fixed slat position >>>> >>>> >compromise > > >>>>between best lift and minimum drag is eliminated. Dedalius claims 21 >>>> >>>> >mph > > >>>>stall speed and 125 mph Vne. Comments? >>>>Howard Carter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>__________ NOD32 1.924 (20041117) Information __________ >>> >>>This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>>http://www.nod32.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >__________ NOD32 1.925 (20041117) Information __________ > >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >http://www.nod32.com > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:44 AM PST US From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Falling Subaru's Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:39:36 -0600 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" Jerry, I got a kick out of your comments and couldn't help but chuckle. I know the frustration. The big problem is not knowing about engines and still wanting to get things together and get flying...cheap. Like you, I would probably spring for the Jab 33 if I had it to do again. But in the process I have learned a lot about engines and about Subaru's. If we are not engine men then who do you trust? Don Brouchard lives in my area and is not necessarily thought of as a genius with these things even if he has been around for a long time. But the soob is a good engine for a builder who knows what to do with it. I didn't know. You didn't know. So guys like us would do better with the proven stuff cause we don't have the experience or inclination to be "that" experimental. I must admit I have spent way more time with engines than I had planned on, but it has been good for me. Don Walker do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald A. Applefeld To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Falling Subaru's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gerald A. Applefeld" > I generally just sit back and read what others have to say since my two cents aren't generally worth the paper it's not printed on. I have 601HD. I started with a SOOB EA81 for all the usual reasons - cheaper, can buy parts locally, good power, etc. I didn't start with the Stratus so my comments can't include that. My redrive, intake and carb were from Joe Souza in California who uses EA-81s on gyros and was recommended by Don Brouchard, that father of SOOBs in planes. On my very first flight (after high speed taxi and crow hops with no problems) I burned up the engine due to extreme overheating. It kept running to get me safely down but was beyond repair. I rebuild the first from Don's videos. The second was rebuild by Joe Souza, retaining the accessories from the original. After correcting some cowl and cooling issues I flew 5 hours but with less than stellar performance. We thought it was the prop pitch (using WARP 3-blade, ground adjustable). After tweeking the pitch several times, I was making another flight when I lost RPM at 500 feet. I was able to get it down again but found that two pistons were burned through - a mechanic said it was an over lean condition-obviously an induction problem yet I had no mixture control on the carb and the other head was fine. I now have a Jab 3300 and have a good flying safe airplane. I wish I had never spent the time and money trying to make the SOOB work when there are proven, reliable engines. I know others are having better luck and stand behind their installations and I wish then all the best but my life means more to me, and I can only stretch the word EXPERIMENTAL so far. Jerry Cdngoose wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > We keep hearing about Subaru's falling from space , but in my area the > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:22 AM PST US From: "Paul Tipton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH701 Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Tipton" It is not just about brushing people off. How can you expect Zenith to respond about a product that is not a product they have tested or designed? It would be irresponsible for them to do so and possible open Zenith up to liability they have no control of. I think Zenith has a good product and they stand behind that product. I don't blame Zenith for not wanting to comment one way or the other on some other companies products. Almost everything in aircraft design is a compromise. I don't think anyone has built the perfect plane for everyone, but I personally love my 701. It flies as advertised. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:02 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Falling Subaru's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" You're right, one cannot rush out and run a "ready to use solution" without checking it out first. It does take more effort to get ahead of problems for the Subaru because you can't take any problem for granted and the engine doesn't come with a book for its configuration. Everyone who's bought one, even the Stratus, has had to deal with learning about cooling and fuel delivery before the fact (mine included). It's an effort that's underestimated by people buying the Subaru, but there are lots of reference pieces on the Subaru in Alternative Engines Volumes I & II that describe problems of, and the care and feeding of Subs rather well. Once the user has read and undersands what's needed, the Subaru becomes a great little engine. It is still the user, not the engine, that needs more help. Larry McFarland 601HDS Stratus-Ram-Subaru Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Falling Subaru's > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gerald A. Applefeld" > On my very first flight (after high speed taxi and crow hops with no problems) I burned up the engine due > to extreme overheating. another flight when I lost RPM but found that > two pistons were burned through - a mechanic said it was an over lean > condition, obviously an induction problem yet I had no mixture > control on the carb and the other head was fine. I wish I had never > spent the time and > money trying to make the SOOB work when there are proven, reliable > engines. > I know others are having better luck and stand behind their installations > and I wish then all the best but my life means more to me, and I can only > stretch the word EXPERIMENTAL so far. > Jerry > > Cdngoose wrote: ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Falling Subaru's From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Well Larry I think after spending $7000 on a Soob conversion it would be reasonable to expect that all the serious issues at least were taken care of...Failing that at least the supplier of the package would take on finding a fix and repairing the damaged engines for free. Instead what we got was a lot of finger pointing about how overheating, running two ignitions at the same time and the cow jumped over the moon as reasons for the valve guides falling out. All of which or course are nonsense. I have spent much more than a Rotax would have cost me and am left with the sinking feeling that one day this engine will bite me again...It shouldn't because its been fixed properly now...At my expense! I do think a Soob package IF properly sorted is a good setup but there is only one guy I would go to for an EA81 conversion and that is Ron at Ram Performance. As to help for the user...How about a check for the thousands of dollars I have spent on this engine over and above what I should have paid for it?...The fact it tried to kill me 3 times I'll ignore. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Falling Subaru's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" --> It is still the user, not the engine, that needs more help. Larry McFarland 601HDS Stratus-Ram-Subaru ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:37 AM PST US From: louiscfi@comcast.net Subject: Zenith-List: corvair college 0.50 MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary 0.01 RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE Received: by and from look like IP addresses --> Zenith-List message posted by: louiscfi@comcast.net I normally dont post to this list, but I just returned from william wynne's "corvair college #8". I am very excited about this very affordable auto conversion, considering all I have to do is copy William's 601 installation, and total firewall fwd cost is something like $5000. I see all of these recent posts about the subaru installation and am wondering if any of you have considered the corvair. We had a great time at the college. There were more than 40 people there throughout the weekend, and I believe well over a dozen engines had some work done to them. I also think that about 6 engines were finished and run for the first time on the engine stand. All but one started on the first attempt w/ some very minor tweaking. The other one started eventually when it was discovered that something was wrong w/ the distributor...I think....but it did eventually start and run fine. There were also 4-5 corvair powered airplanes there. Some w/ hundreds of hours on them. As far as I know, none of them have required any work past the initial installation. What a hoot building my own engine. The engine is so simple that even I can build it. By the way, update on my 601...tail section complete, wings 97% complete...starting on the fuselage. Hopefully flying by spring. -- Louis 601xl, corvair pwr j-41 capt CFII SMEL http://webpages.charter.net/volson8405 I normally dont post to this list, but I just returned from william wynne's "corvair college #8". I am very excited about this very affordable auto conversion, considering all I have to do is copy William's 601 installation, and total firewall fwd cost is something like $5000. I see all of these recent posts about the subaru installation and am wondering if any of you have considered the corvair. We had a great time at the college. There were more than 40 people there throughout the weekend, and I believe well over a dozen engines had some work done to them. I also think that about 6 engines were finished and run for the first time on the engine stand. All but one started on the first attempt w/ some very minor tweaking. The other one started eventually when it was discovered that something was wrong w/ the distributor...I think....but it did eventually start and run fine. There were also 4-5 corvair powered airplanes there. Some w/ hundreds of hours on them. As far as I know, none of them have required any work past the initial installation. What a hoot building my own engine. The engine is so simple that even I can build it. By the way, update on my 601...tail section complete, wings 97% complete...starting on the fuselage. Hopefully flying by spring. -- Louis 601xl, corvair pwr j-41 capt CFII SMEL http://webpages.charter.net/volson8405 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: corvair college From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" And remember to make it such that you can remove the cowl easily so you can whip it off and proudly display that pretty flat six for all to see at the airshows. I could charge an entrance fee to look at my soob installation at Arlington every year! Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of louiscfi@comcast.net Subject: Zenith-List: corvair college --> Zenith-List message posted by: louiscfi@comcast.net I normally dont post to this list, but I just returned from william wynne's "corvair college #8". I am very excited about this very affordable auto conversion, considering all I have to do is copy William's 601 installation, and total firewall fwd cost is something like $5000. I see all of these recent posts about the subaru installation and am wondering if any of you have considered the corvair. We had a great time at the college. There were more than 40 people there throughout the weekend, and I believe well over a dozen engines had some work done to them. I also think that about 6 engines were finished and run for the first time on the engine stand. All but one started on the first attempt w/ some very minor tweaking. The other one started eventually when it was discovered that something was wrong w/ the distributor...I think....but it did eventually start and run fine. There were also 4-5 corvair powered airplanes there. Some w/ hundreds of hours on them. As far as I know, none of them have required any work past the initial installation. What a hoot building my own engine. The engine is so simple that even I can build it. By the way, update on my 601...tail section complete, wings 97% complete...starting on the fuselage. Hopefully flying by spring. -- Louis 601xl, corvair pwr j-41 capt CFII SMEL http://webpages.charter.net/volson8405 I normally dont post to this list, but I just returned from william wynne's "corvair college #8". I am very excited about this very affordable auto conversion, considering all I have to do is copy William's 601 installation, and total firewall fwd cost is something like $5000. I see all of these recent posts about the subaru installation and am wondering if any of you have considered the corvair. We had a great time at the college. There were more than 40 people there throughout the weekend, and I believe well over a dozen engines had some work done to them. I also think that about 6 engines were finished and run for the first time on the engine stand. All but one started on the first attempt w/ some very minor tweaking. The other one started eventually when it was discovered that something was wrong w/ the distributor...I think....but it did eventually start and run fine. There were also 4-5 corvair powered airplanes there. Some w/ hundreds of hours on them. As far as I know, none of them have required any work past the initial installation. What a hoot building my own engine. The engine is so simple that even I can build it. By the way, update on my 601...tail section complete, wings 97% complete...starting on the fuselage. Hopefully flying by spring. -- Louis 601xl, corvair pwr j-41 capt CFII SMEL http://webpages.charter.net/volson8405 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:51 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: corvair college --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" I certainly looked at the Corvair, as it's a great engine for the 601. All the right features for very reasonable money. I'd prefer it to the Jab 3300 for its simplicity, but alas, it's air-cooled, even if it's considerably faster, I like the sound of water. Larry McFarland - 601HDS @ 45 hours Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Zenith-List: corvair college > --> Zenith-List message posted by: louiscfi@comcast.net > I see all of these recent posts about the subaru installation and am wondering if any of you have considered the corvair. > What a hoot building my own engine. The engine is so simple that even I > can build it. By the way, update on my 601...tail section complete, wings > 97% complete...starting on the fuselage. Hopefully flying by spring. > > -- > Louis > 601xl, corvair pwr > j-41 capt > CFII SMEL > http://webpages.charter.net/volson8405 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:08 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Falling Subaru's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" You're right Frank; when Jabaru went though their severe teething problems, they never left anyone floating and took care of the issues so that everyone was satisfied. That's why they're taking market share from the Subaru. In our case, the transfer of Stratus from the originator/builder/designer to a package reseller where engine refinement couldn't be taken quickly to continued development which might be because only so many of these have been built. I really like my Stratus Subaru, but this has been tempered by having to design a single throttle link between carbs, improved cooling of the Rabbit radiator, replaced a cracked right upper engine mount rejetted Bings for lower EGTs and replace the ignition pickup at the flywheel and module. Stratus took care of broken things rather quickly for me and being a problem solver, the rest of it has been an enjoyable learning experience thanks to this site. Larry Do not archive > > Well Larry I think after spending $7000 on a Soob conversion it would be > reasonable to expect that all the serious issues at least were taken > care of...Failing that at least the supplier of the package would take > on finding a fix and repairing the damaged engines for free. > I do think a Soob package IF properly sorted is a good setup but there > is only one guy I would go to for an EA81 conversion and that is Ron at > Ram Performance. > > Frank ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:45 PM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 701 rod ends --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com The flaperon bellcrank is 3/8th inch where you place the rod end. I'm plans building and ordered my rod ends from ACS. The rod ends for this size bolt has what appears to be a standard 7/16th inch width.(flat-to-flat dim.) It will fit the bellcrank if I spread those arms slightly. Is this normal, or does Zenith supply rod ends with a 3/8th inch dimension? Hav'nt been able to order toys from Zenith. Everytime I call I get a busy signal. They cant be that busy are they? Phones down? Number still (573)581-9000 ? Maybee I just have bad luck? Do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:34 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Falling Subaru's From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Now you know why my next engine will be a Lyc! Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Falling Subaru's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" --> You're right Frank; when Jabaru went though their severe teething problems, they never left anyone floating and took care of the issues so that everyone was satisfied. That's why they're taking market share from the Subaru. In our case, the transfer of Stratus from the originator/builder/designer to a package reseller where engine refinement couldn't be taken quickly to continued development which might be because only so many of these have been built. I really like my Stratus Subaru, but this has been tempered by having to design a single throttle link between carbs, improved cooling of the Rabbit radiator, replaced a cracked right upper engine mount rejetted Bings for lower EGTs and replace the ignition pickup at the flywheel and module. Stratus took care of broken things rather quickly for me and being a problem solver, the rest of it has been an enjoyable learning experience thanks to this site. Larry Do not archive > > Well Larry I think after spending $7000 on a Soob conversion it would > be reasonable to expect that all the serious issues at least were > taken care of...Failing that at least the supplier of the package > would take on finding a fix and repairing the damaged engines for > free. > I do think a Soob package IF properly sorted is a good setup but there > is only one guy I would go to for an EA81 conversion and that is Ron > at Ram Performance. > > Frank ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:26 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Pre First Flight Training From: "Garrou, Douglas" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" Truth is a defense. In lieu of further commentary, I will point listers to the comments posted, over the years and in the past few days, by the guys who have felt the sickening lurches of dying Soobs. Doug -----Original Message----- Time: 05:45:41 AM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Pre First Flight Training [snip] Now that was a cheap shot........ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:26 PM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: re:701 rod ends --> Zenith-List message posted by: RURUNY@aol.com Flydog, I called Zenith last week about this issue. Nick said they only have one size rod end in stock for all the Zenith models. So he said that has to be the correct one.He said to send pics of what it looks like and he will forward them to Chris to evaluate. The Rod ends provided me were 7/16" and the metal slab in the middle is 3/8". But the manual says to put a 1/16" washer on the aft side between the rod end and the bellcrank also. This increases the spread to 1/8" at each end. This washer I guess helps with clearance (to supplement the notches at bellcrank ends) for flaps down position. The things look like bow ties from the side like this. I haven't sent the pics to Nick yet. I'm curious though if other 701 people have run into this question and their solution. Brian Unruh The flaperon bellcrank is 3/8th inch where you place the rod end. I'm plans building and ordered my rod ends from ACS. The rod ends for this size bolt has what appears to be a standard 7/16th inch width.(flat-to-flat dim.) It will fit the bellcrank if I spread those arms slightly. Is this normal, or does Zenith supply rod ends with a 3/8th inch dimension? Hav'nt been able to order toys from Zenith. Everytime I call I get a busy signal. They cant be that busy are they? Phones down? Number still (573)581-9000 ? Maybee I just have bad luck? Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:18 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Tinting canopy? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Well I have reached the age when I need a little sun protection (i.e. bald). I would like to tint the inside top of my canopy but the local trim shop says the film will not stick to the lexan. Has anyone tried tinting their canopies? Thanks, Frank ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:13 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JrMmJV6tzhdNB0kthaPG7jTyFOTCF5FpAxLTeU00UsTtDGrtqwQ0jQg/Xw5f7/+imBfEck01diPphyHqdFQdb6eCfDtpf74vT6lU4QUc6iUoatPoRFAlBq060M+asGJuKm2iumBv2ejXHCYTaTQtvLAJ5l5LZ0ThxQ7hrEhkSQI= ; From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Spring gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Gents, Well, after researching all of the alternatives about as far as my sanity would take me, I decided to make my own spring gear. Thanks to Grant for putting me in contact with Chris in Australia, and getting information on his installation. Armed with his advice, I bought 12' of .75" x 3.5" aluminum and went at it. I had to construct a 3" pipe Tee that fit on the top of the hydraulic ram of my 12 ton hydraulic pipe bender. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=32888 -Once this was completed, I routed the edges with a stantard router bit, and started bending. I used a cheap harbor freight angle finder, and proceeded slowly, checking angles often, and taking into account about a 5 deg spring back. I spent about 2 hours total building the jig and less than an hour bending the gear. It still needs to be cleaned up and drilled for the axles. I think it will weigh in at around 24 lbs. I never did figure out the weight of the bungee installation, but since I just primered and started riveting the center wing without any gear boxes, I just don't care! Damn, the center wing is easy when you don't have to build those damn gear boxes. If anyone wants pictures, send me a direct e-mail. More information will follow when I modify the lower longeron to accept the gear. R/ Brandon __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com