---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/07/04: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:08 AM - Avex 1604-0412 (nick pace) 2. 05:42 AM - Re: Avex 1604-0412 (Zed Smith) 3. 06:02 AM - Subject: XL trim authority with full flap (Grant Corriveau) 4. 06:04 AM - Re: Avex 1604-0412 (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 5. 06:13 AM - Avex 1604-0412 (Robert Schoenberger) 6. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem (Thilo Kind) 7. 07:06 AM - Re: XL trim authority with full flap (HeatonHE@aol.com) 8. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: XL trim authority with full flap (Bryan Martin) 10. 10:00 AM - 601XL New Fuel Valve Control Problem (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 11. 10:45 AM - Re: Avex 1604-0412 (kevinbonds@comcast.net) 12. 10:55 AM - Re: 601XL New Fuel Valve Control Problem (Bryan Martin) 13. 11:12 AM - Re: Avex 1604-0412 from China?? (Carlos Sa) 14. 11:42 AM - Re: Avex 1604-0412 from China?? (kevinbonds@comcast.net) 15. 11:44 AM - Re: Avex 1604-0412 from China?? (kevinbonds@comcast.net) 16. 12:36 PM - Re: 601XL New Fuel Valve Control Problem (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 17. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: XL trim authority with full flap (Dave Kubassek) 18. 01:12 PM - Re: Avex 1604-0412 (Trevor Page) 19. 02:33 PM - Re: 601XL New Fuel Valve Control Problem (Johann G.) 20. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem (Tim & Diane Shankland) 21. 04:47 PM - Re: Re: XL trim authority with full flap (wizard-24@juno.com) 22. 05:00 PM - Corvair Project/1965 110 hp Engine for sale in Chicago (Daniel Vandenberg) 23. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 24. 08:06 PM - Re: Wing trailing edge (Walt Cannon) 25. 09:12 PM - Re: Avex 1604-0412 (kevinbonds@comcast.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:44 AM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=L9DUjMXra2VZ2+j4UI/jCTdqACHRdqIAzygFopKwPahqIGN4hsOLz/Vn9ikMB+MwU69+SfgG9ncAFTZiSiBiBdYIREJwiAwGh6T3GdI+ydpQdvhr3kcu63AQBy+5INl/RONCXrS9/wosJoSkacirU+GE8qredzSOb+I6wSIPFo4= ; From: nick pace Subject: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 --> Zenith-List message posted by: nick pace I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I believe they are made in America. I read that the quality control is not as good and they are not recomended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts on this subject? I would like to thank the list for any consideration. ===== A Fellow Aviator Nick Pace Harpers Ferry WV Building a 601XL #5607 Corvair Powered {just started} __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:56 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I believe they are made in America. I read that the quality control is not as good and they are not recomended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts on this subject? I would like to thank the list for any consideration. Nick Pace Nick, It is my understanding that ZAC uses only the Avex manufactured in Great Britain/England/Scotland/Wales/etc, because of quality control issues. This subject has previously been beaten to death by many, however it escapes me at the moment what the outcome was. Possibly somebody will pop up with a definitive answer. In the meantime it might be prudent to use non-ZAC rivets only for trim and decoration, not on structrual items. Somebody jump in here..... Zed/701/R912/same old 90%/Merry Christmas/do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:15 AM PST US Subject: Subject: Zenith-List: XL trim authority with full flap From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > Subject: Zenith-List: XL trim authority with full flap > The pressure required to keep on the glide path is not great but most aircraft > I have flown can be trimmed on the approach with full flap. > The PFA who issue (hopefully!) my permit to fly feel this is not as it should > be. That makes more sense. The aircraft should be trimmable on approach down to 1.3 Vs... assuming 'normal' c of g etc.. of course... Here's a little exercise to try, if you haven't already - please excuse me if I'm telling you stuff you've already tried: With the trim set full nose-up, what speed does the aircraft settle onto if left alone in a gliding descent? How does that 'in trim' speed compare with the stall speed plus 30% (i.e. 1.3 Vs which is the minimum approach speed you should want to use.) BTW -- how accurate is your ASI at approach speed? Have you checked this out yet? At the other end... if the aircraft is trimmed for max. 'safe' fwd speed, is there still any forward trim movement left? You may want to try setting up a 'high speed cruise/descent' condition such as you might use at the end of a long crosscountry flight and then trim it. I.e. start up high, gently dive the aircraft to some safe/comfortable max. speed below red line... (150mph? assuming 160 redline ... or maybe even less. At 150 my HDS is diving too steeply to ever want to use this for a 'steady state' descent condition! The max trim speed on my aircraft is probably about 140? or so...). Now, is there still fwd trim available? This is not desirable -- (i.e. you wouldn't ever want to use this much forward trim)... If there is some fwd trim left, then before the next flight try changing the neutral point on the trim motor/tab attachemt, to give a touch more towards ANU (airplane nose up) trim. Your current trim tab travels seem to be in the right ball park, but ultimately it's the flight tests that tell you if the setting needs to be tweeked. Perhaps just a degree or so is all you'll need. I don't know how the XL is, but on my HDS, the trim tab was initially too powerful. I could trim down to stall speed at one end and above max. flight speed at the other! Also any touch of the trim button would produce so much change that it was hard to get it trimmed out to the proper setting. I ended up cutting down the trim chord to almost half it's original size (there are other 'electronic' and 'mechanical' means of dealing with this. But seeing as my aircraft has an 'non-faired' trailing edge trim tab, this was the easiest. Your situation is probably different.) So, altogether, to fine-tune the trim system, it should be just powerful enough to give 'in trim' from 1.3 Vs on approach/glide up to Vne - 5 or 10. Don't hesitate to check with the Zenair guys at the factory to see what the trim travel limits they use/recommend; check your c of g of course; what size trim tab do you have vs. the original design. What do other XLs have? fwiw -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:18 AM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com I am using Avex rivets from Textron in Canada. Their price is very good and when I told the girl on the phone what I wanted and the quantity, she said, "Hmmm...you must be building a Zodiac." Does that tell you something? As far as quality control, the only thing I have noticed is every once in a while, I find a rivet mandrel with no aluminum sleeve. I have gone through several thousand rivets...and have found, perhaps, a dozen like this. I don't know if this is the quality control problem that people refer to or not. If it is, it seems like a minor issue. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:38 AM PST US From: "Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" Try the archives for extensive former discussion of these rivets. Robert Schoenberger do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:42 AM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Frank and all, I have the setup you described: Zodiac CH 601 HDS with L/E tanks, a Faucet pump in each bay (which I also use as tank selectors), and the Rotax 912 pump in series. During flight operations I always run one Faucet pump and the engine pump. I also have a fuel pressure sensor downstream of the engine driven pump. For test purposes I have switched off the Faucet pumps (yes, I'm fully aware of the purpose of vapor lock in this case - we fully agree on this subject. However, this was done just for test purposes). The interesting observation was, that the fuel presssure doesn't change at all. So, I assume, it doesn't matter from the perspective of over-pressuring the Bing whether or not the engine driven pump is installed. Happy flying Thilo Kind currently in Taiwan, where no general aviation exists :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > My applogies but I did not see the engine was a Jab. The Rotax and the > Stratus use the same bing carb which can be a problem when you have two > pumps in series (low wing pump and the engine pump) because the pressure > can overcome the float needle. So to junk the engine driven pump on a > Rotax is perfectly OK...becuse it has Bing carbs. > > The problem with an engine driven pump is that it is prone to heating > and if it is used on a low wing plane with auto fuel with no low point > pump it is a prime candidate for vapour lock. > > If your engine has some other form of fuel metering that is fuel > pressure dependant (MOST carbs do not care what the pressure is as long > as it does not overcome the float needle) then of course you need some > way to accuratly deliver that pressure. > > My point was intended to demonstrate that a engine driven pump only is a > poor way to do it. > > Frank > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Small > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > Never, never, never junk the mechanical pump on a Jabiru!!!! The info > below came from someone who has little knowledge of Jabiru engines, in > fact he thinks they're tested below sea level. The spring in the Jabiru > mechanical pump is customized for the engine. You can pump through it > if it fails, just ask USJabiru or Andy at SunCoast. A Jab is not like a > Subaru/Stratus, which does not come with a fuel pump. I'll resist the > urge to say more but add that the US factory distributors know more > about their products than do the various opinions on an e-mail builders > list. Ask the people who know. > > regards jeff > > >Junk the engine driven pump, that just encourages vapour lock and > over > >pressurises the carbs.....This is what I have been flying with for > 350 > >hours now. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:51 AM PST US From: HeatonHE@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL trim authority with full flap --> Zenith-List message posted by: HeatonHE@aol.com >At first my 601 XL wouldn't trim out even with no flaps. The >first thing I >did was to duct tape an extension on the trim tab to see >what it would take >to trim it out. With the tab nearly doubled in size it would >trim out but it >still took most of the trim travel. I have noticed that some aircraft, Pulsar for instance, use the bungee system for elevator trim. Would this be a viable option for the 601XL? I think the elevator would have to be balanced for this to work. Herb Heaton 601XL Plans Built Turbo EA-81 Rudder finished Stab started Do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Duh...Are you sure there isn't a hole in your diaphram there Thilo?....:) Interesting, the pump must have some kind of pressure relief/regulator built in? Hmm...Still you would never want to use the engine pump alone because it will now be sucking both uphill (with a hot pump) and through a dead Facet pump which will have some forward flow pressure drop...Never measured it though. So it still seems redundant on a Rotax, at least with low wing tanks. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thilo Kind Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Frank and all, I have the setup you described: Zodiac CH 601 HDS with L/E tanks, a Faucet pump in each bay (which I also use as tank selectors), and the Rotax 912 pump in series. During flight operations I always run one Faucet pump and the engine pump. I also have a fuel pressure sensor downstream of the engine driven pump. For test purposes I have switched off the Faucet pumps (yes, I'm fully aware of the purpose of vapor lock in this case - we fully agree on this subject. However, this was done just for test purposes). The interesting observation was, that the fuel presssure doesn't change at all. So, I assume, it doesn't matter from the perspective of over-pressuring the Bing whether or not the engine driven pump is installed. Happy flying Thilo Kind currently in Taiwan, where no general aviation exists :-( ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL trim authority with full flap From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 12/7/04 10:05 AM, HeatonHE@aol.com at HeatonHE@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: HeatonHE@aol.com > >> At first my 601 XL wouldn't trim out even with no flaps. The >first thing I >> did was to duct tape an extension on the trim tab to see >what it would take >> to trim it out. With the tab nearly doubled in size it would >trim out but it >> still took most of the trim travel. > > I have noticed that some aircraft, Pulsar for instance, use the bungee system > for elevator trim. Would this be a viable option for the 601XL? I think the > elevator would have to be balanced for this to work. > Now there's an Idea. Put a bungee in the system to give some nose up trim force and use the trim tab to get the rest. I might not have to add surface area to the tab and it would tend to limit the nose down trim available. Right now I think I can trim out to well above Vne. I could set it up so the spring force trims the plane out in normal cruise and fly with the trim tab near neutral like I'm used to doing in a Cessna. I just have to figure out the best place to put the bungee. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:54 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL New Fuel Valve Control Problem --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Hello Thread, Well I appreciate all the fine advise I have received in the last couple days on this issue. So I trekked the 60 miles up to Spruce yesterday and purchased a fine valve. It is an FS20X4 Andair made in England and pretty as can be. Nice, clean workmanship. Only problem is none of the fitting I have will screw into or on to the male and female ports. What have I got ? This thing is growing into a whole new project and all I want to do is spray a little more paint and go flying ! I e-mailed the Andair folks over the pond after getting nothing from their web site. Who out there knows what kind of fittings these are and who might sell them. thanks, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:18 AM PST US From: kevinbonds@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net Nick Good news and Bad news. The plant in NJ closed years ago, so those so called bad rivets are probably long gone. Bad news is, as of last Oct. the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. Check the archives for the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this back in the spring. I got this info from two different sales people in Canada where I ordered my rivets. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: nick pace > > I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I > believe they are made in America. I read that the > quality control is not as good and they are not > recomended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else > using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts > on this subject? I would like to thank the list for > any consideration. > > ===== > A Fellow Aviator > Nick Pace > Harpers Ferry WV > Building a 601XL #5607 > Corvair Powered > {just started} > > > > __________________________________ > http://my.yahoo.com > > > > > > Nick Good news and Bad news. The plant in NJ closed years ago, so those so called bad rivets are probably long gone. Bad news is, as of last Oct. the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. Check the archives for the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this back in the spring. I got this info fromtwo differentsalespeople in Canada where I ordered my rivets. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: nick pace I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I believe they are made in America. I read that the quality control is not as good and they are not recomended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts on this subject? I would like to thank the list for any consideration. ===== A Fellow Aviator Nick Pace Harpers Ferry WV Building a 601XL #5607 Corvair Powered {just started} __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ========================================= ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL New Fuel Valve Control Problem From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 12/7/04 12:59 PM, JAPhillipsGA@aol.com at JAPhillipsGA@aol.com wrote: > It is an FS20X4 Andair made in England and > pretty as can be. Nice, clean workmanship. Only problem is none of the > fitting > I have will screw into or on to the male and female ports. What have I got ? According to the AS&S catalog, the female ports should be standard 1/4" tapered pipe thread and the male ports should be 9/16-18 for standard AN 3/8" tube fittings (-6D) for 37 degree flared tubing. You would use an AN 818-6D nut with an AN819-6D sleeve on a 37 degree flared tube. These type fittings are also used in industrial applications. The typical 45 degree hardware store fittings won't fit. You might be able to find fittings or adapters at an industrial supply store, Aircraft Spruce also has them. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:22 AM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=m87txJANtb+ugWSndlhZo3pTWs5iQ5754ZmC7I1We9us/9hlNwVdFBsKuh1bq6exJ7PHluZMriP2q1lYuJnOklfHlsDT/f9K6SyUfKRla6x6fmnr8roD9vrIBLbLPRGBW97lavq/wxBH1XuhiIGnlgTqGJ340IbHJU/q4x6q7K0= ; From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 from China?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Kevin, would you mind elaborating on the China news? Does this mean that if I order my rivets from Textron in Toronto I'll get rivets produced in China? I searched the archives and found nothing regarding this... (kevin & rivet & china, 1604-0412 & china) Carlos do not archive --- kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > Bad news is, as of last Oct. the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. > Check the archives for the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this back > in the spring. I got this info from two different sales people in Canada where I ordered my > rivets. > > Kevin Bonds ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:24 AM PST US From: kevinbonds@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 from China?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net Carlos Sorry to say it is my understanding that Yes they will. To be clear not all of the rivets they produce are to be made in China, but as luck would have it ours are and this is the only place they will be made as I understand it. Someone else may want to chick on this, but be sure you are asking about the 1604-0412 rivets. The guy I spoke to seemed to know what he was talking about. I explained that i was building a experimental aircraft and that he designer had specified the use of English made avex rivets. He asked which avex rivets. when I told him 1604-0412 and -0514's he said those particular ones used to be made in the UK yes, but that plant had shut down a few months before as they were presently moving its production to China. I asked, "so those particular rivets will be made in China?" and he said "Yes, once the plant opens in October." (remember this was in the spring). Incidently this was during Sun-n-Fun that I had this conversation (I was home) so I called a buddy of mine who was there to see if he would corner CH about this but he didn't get the chance. Kevin Bonds Nashville Tn -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Kevin, would you mind elaborating on the China news? Carlos Sorry to say it is my understanding that Yes they will. To be clear not all of the rivets they produce are to be made in China, but as luck would have it ours are and this is the only place they will be made as I understand it. Someone else may want to chick on this, but be sure you are asking about the 1604-0412 rivets. The guy I spoke to seemed to know what he was talking about. I explained thati was building a experimental aircraft and that he designer had specified the use of English made avex rivets. He asked which avex rivets. when I told him 1604-0412 and -0514's he said those particular ones used to be made in the UK yes, but that plant had shut down a few months before as they were presently moving its production to China. I asked, "so those particular rivets will be made in China?" and he said "Yes, once the plant opens in October." (remember this was in the spring). Incidently this was during Sun-n-Fun that I had this conversation (I was home) so I calle d a buddy of mine who was there to see if he would corner CH about this but he didn't get the chance. Kevin Bonds Nashville Tn -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Kevin, would you mind elaborating on the China news? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:39 AM PST US From: kevinbonds@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 from China?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net Carlos I think I had planned on researching this more before I mentioned this and caused a panic so I may not have ever sent an Email about it. Sorry all. I ment well. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Kevin, would you mind elaborating on the China news? > Does this mean that if I order my rivets from Textron in Toronto I'll get rivets > produced in > China? > > I searched the archives and found nothing regarding this... (kevin & rivet & > china, 1604-0412 & > china) > > Carlos > do not archive > > --- kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > > Bad news is, as of last Oct. the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. > > Check the archives for the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email > about this back > > in the spring. I got this info from two different sales people in Canada where > I ordered my > > rivets. > > > > Kevin Bonds > > > > > > Carlos I think I had planned on researching this more before I mentioned this and caused a panic so I may not have ever sent an Email about it. Sorry all. I ment well. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Kevin, would you mind elaborating on the China news? Does this mean that if I order my rivets from Textron in Toronto I'll get rivets produced in China? I searched the archives and found nothing regarding this... (kevin rivet china, 1604-0412 china) Carlos do not archive --- kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote: -- Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net Bad news is, as of last Oct. the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. Check the archives for the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this back in the spring. I got this in fo from two different sales people in Canada where I ordered my rivets. Kevin Bonds atronics.com/emaillists ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:50 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL New Fuel Valve Control Problem --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Bryan, thanks for the valve info. Obviously I am a bit confused. Good luck in your testing, Bill ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:45:06 PM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL trim authority with full flap --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" I thought it was only because of the 0235 Lyc. and the added 100 lbs. on the nose that i was experiencing the trim, or should i say lack of trim problem. what i ended up doing is cutting a wedge shape pc. of SM or insulation board( used in the construction trade on the sides of new homes) A peice 14" long,by 3" wide, cut in a wedge from 0 to 3/4" and with some 2 sided tape, stuck it under the trailing edge of the RHS elevator as a fixed trim tab (very inconspicuous i might add) and Wha Lah........ for now it works wonderfull , hands off flight is now doable.. (One day i will make a new set of rear Horiz. Stab. brackets and raise the rear attachment point by a 1/2" or so and then I'm guessing i should be able to remove the added fixed trim tab. dave.........C-FDSF XL 0235 Lyc. >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: HeatonHE@aol.com >> >>> At first my 601 XL wouldn't trim out even with no flaps. The >first >>> thing I >>> did was to duct tape an extension on the trim tab to see >what it would >>> take >>> to trim it out. With the tab nearly doubled in size it would >trim out >>> but it >>> still took most of the trim travel. >> ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:53 PM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page I'm a little concerned that most people seem to think that anything coming from China is de-facto inferior. I for one have invested much money into a particular computer hardware manufacturer who makes most for their products in Taiwan (I know its not Chinese but might as well be) and in the R.O.C. I've NEVER had any problems with their equipment. I'd suggest getting some testing done on these Avex rivets before we just assume that they are not up to par in quality control. Trevor Page DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT FLAME On Dec 7, 2004, at 1:44 PM, kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > > Nick > > Good news and Bad news. The plant in NJ closed years ago, so those so > called bad rivets are probably long gone. Bad news is, as of last Oct. > the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. Check the archives for > the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this > back in the spring. I got this info from two different sales people in > Canada where I ordered my rivets. > > Kevin Bonds > > -------------- Original message -------------- > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: nick pace >> >> I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I >> believe they are made in America. I read that the >> quality control is not as good and they are not >> recomended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else >> using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts >> on this subject? I would like to thank the list for >> any consideration. >> >> ===== >> A Fellow Aviator >> Nick Pace >> Harpers Ferry WV >> Building a 601XL #5607 >> Corvair Powered >> {just started} >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> http://my.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> >> >> > > Nick > > Good news and Bad news. The plant in NJ closed years ago, so those so > called bad rivets are probably long gone. Bad news is, as of last Oct. > the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. Check the archives for > the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this > back in the spring. I got this info fromtwo differentsalespeople in > Canada where I ordered my rivets. > > Kevin Bonds > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > -- Zenith-List message posted by: nick pace > > I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I > believe they are made in America. I read that the > quality control is not as good and they are not > recomended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else > using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts > on this subject? I would like to thank the list for > any consideration. > > ===== > A Fellow Aviator > Nick Pace > Harpers Ferry WV > Building a 601XL #5607 > Corvair Powered > {just started} > > > __________________________________ > http://my.yahoo.com > > > ========================================= > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:03 PM PST US From: "Johann G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL New Fuel Valve Control Problem --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Hello Bill I looked at their web page, and they do have the option of selecting the different fitting for each outlet of the valve. Take a look at the different sizes. AN 8 or IC8, 3/8 NPT or Adjustable male AN 8. http://www.andair.co.uk/system/index.html Best wishes, Johann G. Iceland. Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL New Fuel Valve Control Problem > --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com > > Hello Thread, Well I appreciate all the fine advise I have received in > the > last couple days on this issue. So I trekked the 60 miles up to Spruce > yesterday and purchased a fine valve. It is an FS20X4 Andair made in > England and > pretty as can be. Nice, clean workmanship. Only problem is none of the > fitting > I have will screw into or on to the male and female ports. What have I got > ? > This thing is growing into a whole new project and all I want to do is > spray a > little more paint and go flying ! I e-mailed the Andair folks over the > pond > after getting nothing from their web site. Who out there knows what kind > of > fittings these are and who might sell them. thanks, Bill of Georgia > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:03 PM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland As I have mentioned in previous posts, the return spring in the engine pump provided the pressure regulation so no relief/regulator is built it. I do find it somewhat interesting about the admonitions never to use an engine driven pump when I flew a Grumman Cheetah for over ten years and yes it has low wings and you only use the boast pumps for takeoff and landings, I believe if memory serve me the the Cherokee 140 and 180 used the same system. These plane have been flying for decades with no troubles. Oh and by the way I had the STP for the Cheetah for use of auto fuel, the only change to the aircraft to comply was a decal on the wing around the filler advising the auto fuel could be used. Tim Shankland Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > >Duh...Are you sure there isn't a hole in your diaphram there >Thilo?....:) > >Interesting, the pump must have some kind of pressure relief/regulator >built in? > >Hmm...Still you would never want to use the engine pump alone because it >will now be sucking both uphill (with a hot pump) and through a dead >Facet pump which will have some forward flow pressure drop...Never >measured it though. So it still seems redundant on a Rotax, at least >with low wing tanks. > >Frank > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thilo Kind >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" > >Hi Frank and all, > >I have the setup you described: Zodiac CH 601 HDS with L/E tanks, a >Faucet pump in each bay (which I also use as tank selectors), and the >Rotax 912 pump in series. During flight operations I always run one >Faucet pump and the engine pump. I also have a fuel pressure sensor >downstream of the engine driven pump. For test purposes I have switched >off the Faucet pumps (yes, I'm fully aware of the purpose of vapor lock >in this case - we fully agree on this subject. However, this was done >just for test purposes). The interesting observation was, that the fuel >presssure doesn't change at all. So, I assume, it doesn't matter from >the perspective of over-pressuring the Bing whether or not the engine >driven pump is installed. > >Happy flying > >Thilo Kind >currently in Taiwan, where no general aviation exists :-( > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:26 PM PST US From: "wizard-24@juno.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL trim authority with full flap --> Zenith-List message posted by: "wizard-24@juno.com" In reading all the emails in this thread -- has anyone that has taken a ride in ZAC's XL demo noticed this same problem? Seems to me that if the demo has this issue, ZAC would (should) have come up with a solution by now. Mike Fortunato 601XL Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:22 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=UEq6ByCwtXpHEccs4/tHdJKp83/ijOgRuiC87N36BNHCc0bmyeG4i77Tu4JKStRP23J5hIaX0Zvc2RsnFO3PuQp7pfV30xgSaBC+Lz99xBGcP+5Co+99oYrjyzwhwwosRtGpOFf1W0evDQwPLoXJgCtTtOqMZ80mXu5SUBZXqYY= ; From: Daniel Vandenberg Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair Project/1965 110 hp Engine for sale in Chicago --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg Gentlemen... I have relunctantly decided to sell my accumulated Corvair project items. I have decided to build an RV-9A instead of the 601XL. I say reluctantly because I like the WW Corvair conversion...and I like the 601 too. But one has to choose in life...and so I will not be proceeding with my Corvair project. And I need to clean out the garage for the winter. Therefore the following are for sale as a package...only to an original purchaser of WW's Conversion Manual: A.) 1965 110 hp engine. Case Code is T0420RF. This is from a manual trans, A/C chassis. It is appropriate as a starting point for the WW conversion. It has been externally power-washed. The engine has never been taken apart...but it was removed from the chassis in August 2004. It has the desirable 12-fin oil cooler. The crank turns freely, although it will not turn past 360 degrees. Perhaps a stuck valve? I was told that this engine was running until it was removed from the chassis. I paid $200 for this engine in August 2004. B.) All five WW Corvair Engine VHS Videos. 1. Introduction to Corvair Engines. 2. Corvair Engine Assembly - Part 1 3. Corvair Engine Assembly - Part 2 4. Corvair Engine Assembly - Part 3 5. Corvair Engine Installation Details C.) A complete set of books as recommended in WW's manual. This includes the following: 1. 1965 Corvair Chassis Shop Manual 2. Richard Finch's "How to keep your Corvair Alive" 3. Frederik Johnson's "Stop Corvair Lubricant Leaks" 4. A complete set of WW's "Corvair Flyer" back-issues. 5. Contact Issue #75...devoted to the Corvair D.) If you're contemplating a Zenith CH601XL project I'll throw in the latest Zenith Demo DVD (which I purchased a couple of months ago)...and the older Zenith 601XL information package/VHS video. I'd like to sell all this together. I paid over $450 for all this...but will sell it for $300. It must be picked up at my home in the heart of Chicago...1 mile south of Meigs Field. Note that I am not selling my WW conversion manual...as I believe anybody getting started should purchase their own manual from WW. Dan Vandenberg H (312) 326-3376 C (312) 493-1231 W (708) 339-6321 __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:02 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Not "Never" to use it just that it really is redundant to the low wing pumps. The admonishment is never to use it alone....really what I meant was never use it alone on take off and landing. But than again, if you are flying at altitude on a warm day and your engine driven pump locks up, do you really want to experience your engine spluttering as the fuel pressure hits zero? Sure you can restore the flow by flippig on the lo wing pumps but what benefit is the engine pump actually giving you over two low wing electric pumps by themselves? Yes the engine pump gives you SOME additional redundancy but the electric pumps should be fed from two independent electrical sources ( a whole different discussion...:)..) so you effectively you have a complete backup system with the two electric pumps as long as you don't suck a tank dry...I never done it yet. Its just that hydraulically speaking the engine pump is in the wrong place and under the right conditions will vapour lock and is therefore a poor backup to the low wing pumps. Ok does that explain it now?...:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuel Valve and duel control problem --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland --> As I have mentioned in previous posts, the return spring in the engine pump provided the pressure regulation so no relief/regulator is built it. I do find it somewhat interesting about the admonitions never to use an engine driven pump when I flew a Grumman Cheetah for over ten years and yes it has low wings and you only use the boast pumps for takeoff and landings, I believe if memory serve me the the Cherokee 140 and 180 used the same system. These plane have been flying for decades with no troubles. Oh and by the way I had the STP for the Cheetah for use of auto fuel, the only change to the aircraft to comply was a decal on the wing around the filler advising the auto fuel could be used. Tim Shankland ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:22 PM PST US From: Walt Cannon Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing trailing edge --> Zenith-List message posted by: Walt Cannon Dirk, Some others have proposed good assembly techniques to keep the trailing edge straight. I did something else in addition that I have been very pleased with. I bought some anodized AL 3/4 x .062 strip extrusion from Home Depot and sandwiched it in between the upper and lower skins at the TE. It helped to keep it much straighter and the end result is much more robust when it comes to hangar rash etc. Of course, you will have to get a grip length longer of the solid soft rivets, Walt Cannon Seattle ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:23 PM PST US From: kevinbonds@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex 1604-0412 --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net Yeah, I hope that is true. I guess I am a little skeptical only because of the type of products you normally see coming from there. It doesn't mean that they cant make a good product over there (I am aware of the other geopolitical issues involved but do not wish to go into them--we can discuss that elsewhere). I'm not assuming that they will not be up to par, I'm just not excited about losing a reliable source for a yet untested source ya know. BTW how would we test some of these? First we would have to get our hands on some that we knew were made there and run tests. I'm not sure that any made there have hit the market yet (since the plant opened in Oct) they probably stocked up before the move. Anyone have a suggestion. I have plenty of rivets at the moment but will need more sometime. If anyone is buying rivets now maybe they could research more. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page > > I'm a little concerned that most people seem to think that anything > coming from China is de-facto inferior. > > I for one have invested much money into a particular computer hardware > manufacturer who makes most for their products in Taiwan (I know its > not Chinese but might as well be) and in the R.O.C. I've NEVER had any > problems with their equipment. I'd suggest getting some testing done on > these Avex rivets before we just assume that they are not up to par in > quality control. > > Trevor Page > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > DO NOT FLAME > > On Dec 7, 2004, at 1:44 PM, kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net > > > > Nick > > > > Good news and Bad news. The plant in NJ closed years ago, so those so > > called bad rivets are probably long gone. Bad news is, as of last Oct. > > the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. Check the archives for > > the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this > > back in the spring. I got this info from two different sales people in > > Canada where I ordered my rivets. > > > > Kevin Bonds > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: nick pace > >> > >> I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I > >> believe they are made in America. I read that the > >> quality control is not as good and they are not > >> recomended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else > >> using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts > >> on this subject? I would like to thank the list for > >> any consideration. > >> > >> ===== > >> A Fellow Aviator > >> Nick Pace > >> Harpers Ferry WV > >> Building a 601XL #5607 > >> Corvair Powered > >> {just started} > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________ > >> http://my.yahoo.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > Nick > > > > Good news and Bad news. The plant in NJ closed years ago, so those so > > called bad rivets are probably long gone. Bad news is, as of last Oct. > > the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. Check the archives for > > the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this > > back in the spring. I got this info fromtwo differentsalespeople in > > Canada where I ordered my rivets. > > > > Kevin Bonds > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > -- Zenith-List message posted by: nick pace > > > > I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I > > believe they are made in America. I read that the > > quality control is not as good and they are not > > recomended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else > > using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts > > on this subject? I would like to thank the list for > > any consideration. > > > > ===== > > A Fellow Aviator > > Nick Pace > > Harpers Ferry WV > > Building a 601XL #5607 > > Corvair Powered > > {just started} > > > > > > __________________________________ > > http://my.yahoo.com > > > > > > ========================================= > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, I hope that is true. I guess I am a little skeptical only because of the type of products you normally see coming from there. It doesn't mean that they cant make a good product over there (I am aware of the other geopolitical issues involved but do not wish to go into them--we can discuss that elsewhere). I'm not assuming that they will not be up to par, I'm just not excited about losing a reliable source for a yet untested source ya know. BTW how would we test some of these? First we would have to get our hands on some that we knew were made there and run tests. I'm not sure that any made there have hit the market yet (since the plant opened in Oct) they probably stocked up before the move. Anyone have a suggestion. I have plenty of rivets at the moment but will need more sometime. If anyone is buying rivets now maybe they could research more. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page I'm a little concerned that most people seem to think that anything coming from China is de-facto inferior. I for one have invested much money into a particular computer hardware manufacturer who makes most for their products in Taiwan (I know its not Chinese but might as well be) and in the R.O.C. I've NEVER had any problems with their equipment. I'd suggest getting some testing done on these Avex rivets before we just assume that they are not up to par in quality control. Trevor Page DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT FLAME On Dec 7, 2004, at 1:44 PM, kevinbonds@comcast.net wrote: -- Zenith-List m essage posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net Nick Good news and Bad news. The plant in NJ closed years ago, so those so called bad rivets are probably long gone. Bad news is, as of last Oct. the 1604-0412's are being produced in China. Check the archives for the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this back in the spring. I got this info from two different sales people in Canada where I ordered my rivets. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: nick pace I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I believe they are made in America. I read that the quality control is not as good and they are not re comended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts on this subject? I would like to thank the list for any consideration. ===== A Fellow Aviator Nick Pace Harpers Ferry WV Building a 601XL #5607 Corvair Powered {just started} __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com Nick Good news and Bad news. The plant in NJ closed years ago, so those so called bad rivets are probably long gone. Bad news is, as of last Oct. the 1604-0412's are being produc ed in China. Check the archives for the complete history on this. I believe I sent an email about this back in the spring. I got this info fromtwo differentsalespeople in Canada where I ordered my rivets. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: nick pace I am using Avex 1604-0412 from Airparts Inc. and I believe they are made in America. I read that the quality control is not as good and they are not recomended for aircraft use.Has or is anyone else using these rivets and does anyone have any thoughts on this subject? I would like to thank the list for any consideration. ===== A Fellow Aviator Nick Pace &g t; Harpers Ferry WV Building a 601XL #5607 Corvair Powered {just started} __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ========================================= enerous support! ves: http://www.matronics.com/archives