Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:04 AM - Re: Cht sensors on Rotax 912 (Thilo Kind)
2. 03:53 AM - 601 roll-over protection (Martin Pohrille)
3. 04:56 AM - Thought Cordless by now maybe Air if it's quiet (Robert C. Owens)
4. 05:18 AM - Re: Cht sensors on Rotax 912 (Johann G.)
5. 05:22 AM - Re: Thought Cordless by now maybe Air if it's quiet (Crvsecretary@aol.com)
6. 05:36 AM - Re: Feul resistant sealer? (Robert Schoenberger)
7. 07:02 AM - Re: 601 roll-over protection (Jeff Small)
8. 07:07 AM - Re: 601 roll-over protection (Bob Miller)
9. 07:18 AM - Re: 601 roll-over protection (Larry McFarland)
10. 09:10 AM - Re: Cht sensors on Rotax 912 (daberti)
11. 09:46 AM - Re: Thought Cordless by now maybe Air if it's quiet (Todd Osborne)
12. 09:52 AM - FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. (Doug Mattson)
13. 10:20 AM - Zodiac crash at PAE (Sigmo@aol.com)
14. 10:30 AM - Re: 601 roll-over protection (Bryan Martin)
15. 10:41 AM - Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. (Bryan Martin)
16. PM - ()
17. PM - ()
18. PM - ()
19. 02:51 PM - Apologies- (Tommy Walker)
20. 03:55 PM - Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. (Al Young)
21. 04:20 PM - Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. (Jon Croke)
22. 04:49 PM - Recall-Al Young (Cdngoose)
23. 05:33 PM - Etching skins (Matt & Jo)
24. 05:51 PM - Re: Etching skins (Ihab Awad)
25. 06:06 PM - Re: Etching skins (Larry Martin)
26. 06:33 PM - Re: Recall-Al Young (Mike)
27. 06:46 PM - Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. (Jack Russell)
28. 07:32 PM - Builder's update pages (Cdngoose)
29. 07:37 PM - Re: Etching skins (Matt & Jo)
30. 09:08 PM - Re: Builder's update pages (Mike)
31. 10:04 PM - Re: 601 roll-over protection (Gary Gower)
32. 11:21 PM - XL Nose Fork "Recall" ???? (Rico Voss)
33. 11:29 PM - Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Cht sensors on Rotax 912 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" <thilo.kind@gmx.net>
Hi Johann,
Jon is right on the money: the CHT probes in the Rotax 912 measure the
material temps.#18 cable is fine.
I'm using the CHT probes as well as a temp pobe for the cooling water
temperature in my CH 6102 HDS / Rotax 912. I can see fluctuations in the
water temperature ranging from 140 F (in level flight) up to 220 F (when
sitting on the ground on a hot summer day waiting to get on the runway). CHT
temps vary much less - only a few degress F.
Best regards
Thilo Kind
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cht sensors on Rotax 912
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
>
> Johann,
>
> The sensors are measuring the temp of the head material NOT the water.
(they
> do not touch the water) Rotax recommends NOT monitoring water temp, as
Gary
> says, we do not care about water temps... it is the head that we want to
> keep cool. Also, if the water runs out, the engine will be hot but the
> water temp will be cool (no water!)
>
> These sender units on the 912 are temperature resistors and thus require
> external power along with an appropriate meter (VDO, for example), they
are
> NOT the voltage generating kind like on the 2 stroke that require no power
> and a special meter for that purpose. Hence and therefore: any electrical
> wire will work (18g is fine) to run to your meter and power source. The 2
> stroke kind do use a special length of wire to keep the tiny self
generated
> voltages accurate to the meter.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Jon
> www.CH701.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Johann G." <johann@gi.is>
> To: "Zenith listinn" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Cht sensors on Rotax 912
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." <johann@gi.is>
> >
> > Hello list members.
> >
> > I have some questions regarding the CHT sensors on cyl #2 and #3 on
Rotax
> > 912 ul engine.
> > Is the sensor measuring water temp or metal temp on the cyl?
> > Is it necessary to use a special wire like the one used for EGT or CHT
on
> > a two stroke which is installed under the spark plugs?
> > Can I use a AWG 18 wire for this sensor?
> > The reason I ask about the wire is that the sensor connection is
different
> > than the normal two stroke method.
> > The connection is a standard 6,3 x 0.8 DIN 46247. i.e. the blue size
> > female connector.
> >
> > Thank you in advance.
> >
> > Johann G.
> > Iceland.
> > Z 701.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=4TKPtO8Uizs0aTy4LRYJzu1CuCk/y6LZDZtl7MlEOE4Bu0xfgFTjikWz2evtqWWsZGlKHLwk9+y5MAfllWeigXm6eP6wnLvot8POewW7a+8KTqSlbu3BAvHWHaoigN5tvajRys8m8o/A9tJAUAb4Av0NkshJQO3ExP9W2f2GquE=
;
| Subject: | 601 roll-over protection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Martin Pohrille <mpohrille@yahoo.com>
Hi,
I've been lurking on the Zenith and Sonex lists for several month
trying to make a decision to build or not and which aircraft.
I had the opportunity yesterday to see Brian's (RURUNY@aol.com) 701. He
is well along in his project and his work was beautiful. He generously
spent several hours with me going over the building process. VERY
helpful. (thanks Brian).
I'm real interested in the 601 but had a concern which I wanted to get
some feedback about. A number of years back I was at S & F and one of
the airshow pilots in a Sea Fury was killed when his aircraft nosed
over and was crushed because the cockpit had no roll-over protection.
Has anyone come up with a rollbar for the 601? Do people think it is
necessary?
Thanks
Marty
Message 3
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| Subject: | Thought Cordless by now maybe Air if it's quiet |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert C. Owens" <bobowens@avlaw.com>
Looked for a day and most all of the 2500 rpm speed drills, cordless and
corded, are heavy. I have a 25 gal compressor and it is extremely loud.
Since I work at nite on the patio, the compressor is out and I was going
elec.
Now I see that there are quiet compressor options, usually lubricated with
oil. I need 25 cu ft and about 4-5 cfm, right? I see that ApolloAir by
<http://www.hvlp.com/> www.hvlp.com has an oilless but allegedly quiet pump
(the 75 model). What is brand/model of oil pump would you builders
recommend? I take it you use an in line oil/water filter.
Bob - finishing the tail of a CH701 with Pegastol wings.
Robert C. Owens
Board Certified in Aviation Law
www.avlaw.com
<file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Bob/Application%20Data/Microsoft/Sign
atures/www.avlaw.com>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cht sensors on Rotax 912 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." <johann@gi.is>
Jon,Gary,Dirk and Thilo.
Thank you all for the advice on the CHT sensor question.
I am using the Stratomaster E2 as you can view at my Zenith site:
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/pm.cgi?login=johann&ID=18101&ID=18101&private=1&action=display
It does display the EGT and the CHT as a bar across the meter on the left,
but the exhaust system I bought from Zenith does not have the pre welded
socket for the EGT sensor, and I do not want to drill the hole for a hose
clamp sensors. So my idea was to not install the EGT sensors, only the CHT.
The Stratomaster display page can be modified for that so that it will not
have a blank space where the EGT is viewed.
I know it is not as vital to know the Exhaust temp on a four stroke as on
the two stroke, because the main idea behind the EGT monitoring is to know
what the oil and fuel mixture is doing in the combustion chamber. That
should not be a problem in the four stroke.
This is just my understanding.
Once again, thank you all for the kind help,
Best wishes,
Johann G.
Iceland.
Z 701.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cht sensors on Rotax 912
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
>
> Johann,
>
> The sensors are measuring the temp of the head material NOT the water.
(they
> do not touch the water) Rotax recommends NOT monitoring water temp, as
Gary
> says, we do not care about water temps... it is the head that we want to
> keep cool. Also, if the water runs out, the engine will be hot but the
> water temp will be cool (no water!)
>
> These sender units on the 912 are temperature resistors and thus require
> external power along with an appropriate meter (VDO, for example), they
are
> NOT the voltage generating kind like on the 2 stroke that require no power
> and a special meter for that purpose. Hence and therefore: any electrical
> wire will work (18g is fine) to run to your meter and power source. The 2
> stroke kind do use a special length of wire to keep the tiny self
generated
> voltages accurate to the meter.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Jon
> www.CH701.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Johann G." <johann@gi.is>
> To: "Zenith listinn" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Cht sensors on Rotax 912
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." <johann@gi.is>
> >
> > Hello list members.
> >
> > I have some questions regarding the CHT sensors on cyl #2 and #3 on
Rotax
> > 912 ul engine.
> > Is the sensor measuring water temp or metal temp on the cyl?
> > Is it necessary to use a special wire like the one used for EGT or CHT
on
> > a two stroke which is installed under the spark plugs?
> > Can I use a AWG 18 wire for this sensor?
> > The reason I ask about the wire is that the sensor connection is
different
> > than the normal two stroke method.
> > The connection is a standard 6,3 x 0.8 DIN 46247. i.e. the blue size
> > female connector.
> >
> > Thank you in advance.
> >
> > Johann G.
> > Iceland.
> > Z 701.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Thought Cordless by now maybe Air if it's quiet |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com
Hello Robert:
I don't have a answer for you about the oil-type compressor, as I use an oilless
which I find to be acceptable RE: noise. When you talk about oilless I think
you're referring to the 3450 RPM single-cylinder buzzy Campbell-Hausfeld things
you find in Wal-Mart...and yes, THEY ARE LOUD!
Try looking at a low-speed belt-drive compressor and see if that is quiet enough
for your place. When you add in the benefits of a pneumatic rivet puller, blow
gun, and a compressor to fill your tires when they get low, you can't be without
one !
I saw your link to the hvlp site. Please remember hvlp stands for
High Volume LOW Pressure
suitable only for spraying systems. This will NOT work for standard air tools.
Sorry to disappoint you.
Tracy
601XL tail 85%
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 12/19/2004 7:55:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Robert C. Owens"
<bobowens@avlaw.com> writes:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert C. Owens" <bobowens@avlaw.com>
>
>
>Looked for a day and most all of the 2500 rpm speed drills, cordless and
>corded, are heavy. I have a 25 gal compressor and it is extremely loud.
>Since I work at nite on the patio, the compressor is out and I was going
>elec.
>
>Now I see that there are quiet compressor options, usually lubricated with
>oil. I need 25 cu ft and about 4-5 cfm, right? I see that ApolloAir by
><http://www.hvlp.com/> www.hvlp.com has an oilless but allegedly quiet pump
>(the 75 model). What is brand/model of oil pump would you builders
>recommend? I take it you use an in line oil/water filter.
>
>Bob - finishing the tail of a CH701 with Pegastol wings.
>
>Robert C. Owens
>
>Board Certified in Aviation Law
>
>www.avlaw.com
><file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Bob/Application%20Data/Microsoft/Sign
>atures/www.avlaw.com>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Feul resistant sealer? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
As an alternate leak test, I might suggest a surgical glove fastened tight
around the fill hole and a spare piece of 12" long fuel line on the tank
outlet. Blow into the fuel line until the glove expands. Place a small C
clamp on the hose to seal off that end. If the glove stays up, you're
golden. No muss, no fuss. If it goes down, blow it up again, and spray
some soapy water on the glove seal, the hose and look for leaks. Some muss,
and a little fuss. I like this better than using gas. Robert Schoenberger
701
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Martin" <lrm@isp.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Feul resistant sealer?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <lrm@isp.com>
>
> You need to do a leak check before you nail the top down. I put 5 gallons
> in mine and let it set over night, then drained it. It stinks up the
> shop
> especially if you don't like the smell of gasoline. Larry N1345L
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Feul resistant sealer?
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
> <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
>>
>> Mornin list,
>> Installing the tanks now, but wondering about leaking at the threaded
> joint !?
>> What can I use to prevent this? wont be to nice to see a leak after
> riveting the top skin.
>> Thanks,
>> Dirk. 701
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 601 roll-over protection |
Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:00:05 -0600
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
Has anyone come up with a rollbar for the 601? Do people think it is
necessary?
+++ Personal decision; for me - no it is not necessary. Make your own decision.
Stan Challgren has one built in, maybe he'll send you a few jpegs.
+++ The archives are FULL of discussion on this. There was a guy a few years back
who every three months would harangue and harangue the list about the lack
of rollover protection. Regularly bad-mouth ZAC and Chris because they/he would
not listen and include it in the design. Turned out that he was not building
a 601 - just liked to spout off.
+++ Check the archives.
tailwinds jeff
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 601 roll-over protection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Martin,
The roll bar issue was discussed about a year ago on this list, and the
problem seemed to be designing a roll-bar that would be substantial enough
to provide protection without excessively compromising CG, useful load,
visibility or cockpit width. Zenith maintains that the rudder assembly was
designed to take the load and protect the pilot in case of roll-over, but I
don't know if this has ever been demonstrated (or refuted) in an accident.
The issue seems important enough, though, to continue discussing.
Bob
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 601 roll-over protection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 roll-over protection
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Martin Pohrille <mpohrille@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi,
>
> I've been lurking on the Zenith and Sonex lists for several month
> trying to make a decision to build or not and which aircraft.
> Has anyone come up with a rollbar for the 601? Do people think it is
> necessary?
>
> Thanks
> Marty
>
Marty,
This item was discussed rather intensely a couple of years ago, yet none
of the builders or persons advocating roll bar protection have shown any
serious progress.
That is, "roll bar ideas" that, beyond calculation, have been tested to
prove satisfactory protection.
I personally think to consider the number of 601s that may have turned over,
if any, should
be very small and the risk associated also immeasurably small. Haven't seen
any report/picture
of a 601 that's gone bottom up with a pilot inside, tho there was an empty
one tied down in high winds.
If you fly safe, you should be able put this idea way out there on the "to
do list".
Build what you think suits your need. Both planes are nice product when
built right.
I just like the space in the 601, visibility, load capacity and especially
the
Zenith support and builders group best.
Larry McFarland - 601hds @ www.macsmachine.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Cht sensors on Rotax 912 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "daberti" <daberti@sbcglobal.net>
The Rotax is designed so that if you did loose all coolant in the system it
will just keep chugging along. You will not lock up a Rotax four stroke due
to no water in the engine! You may damage the heads, excess heat will warp
them, but the heads are the only thing that's water cooled. In normal summer
weather pulling power to 4000 rpm will drop my oil temps to 160 (water
less )and that's about where I set power to enter the pattern and on
downwind. So at that setting I'm not generating a lot of heat and I could
fly all day (gasoline aside :) ) Measure the cylinder that gets hottest.
On the 601 that is usually the rear one.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hello Johan,
We installed a CHT sensor in one head of our 912. The idea was this: We
went to a Rotax repair course for the 912, they had a desassembled engine,
watching the water pump impeller, is made of plastic (nylon?) .... what
will happen if the impeler (pump propeller) will break or set free from his
shaft? no water to the heads, and will take some precious minutes for the
water temp sensor to "feel" the increase in temperature from allo the water
system, meanwhile the heads will get severe damage, also will give more
time to plan an emergency landing...
With the carburators the 912 has (Bing) there is no need of reading the
combustion temp, they are automatic.
Saludos
Gary Gower
701 912S
"Johann G." <johann@gi.is> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G."
Hello list members.
I have some questions regarding the CHT sensors on cyl #2 and #3 on Rotax
912 ul engine.
Is the sensor measuring water temp or metal temp on the cyl?
Is it necessary to use a special wire like the one used for EGT or CHT on a
two stroke which is installed under the spark plugs?
Can I use a AWG 18 wire for this sensor?
The reason I ask about the wire is that the sensor connection is different
than the normal two stroke method.
The connection is a standard 6,3 x 0.8 DIN 46247. i.e. the blue size female
connector.
Thank you in advance.
Johann G.
Iceland.
Z 701.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Thought Cordless by now maybe Air if it's quiet |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com>
I can't speak for all compressors, but I bought one of the "quiet" ones
too. Yeah, it's quiet, compared to shotgun, but still more than noisy
enough to wake the neighbors if I use it outside.
Todd Osborne
Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
Web Site: www.toddtown.com
MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com
AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Mattson" <dougmattson@isp.com>
601XL builders may want to check this out.I got this Friday.
-----Original Message-----
From: Zenith Aircraft Company [mailto:info@zenithair.com]
Subject: Re: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co.
> I have a Cam100 engine in a 601XL.
> It seems the front fork is not rigid enough. Do you have any
> suggestions to stiffen it up?
>
> Model: ZODIAC CH 601, 6-4466
Please refer to the following attachment
www.zenithair.com\zodiac\xl\data\601xl-nose-wheel-fork-letter.pdf
Nick Heintz
Zenith Aircraft Company
support@zenithair.com
http://www.zenithair.com
Technical Support Disclaimer: While we strive to ensure that the
advice/information provided through our support is correct, Zenith
Aircraft Company does not accept any responsibility for errors or
omissions. Any advice or information that Zenith Aircraft Company
gives you via any form of communication is not a guarantee that it
will correct your problem. It is only offered as assistance to you.
Zenith Aircraft Company will not be held responsible for any loss or
damage as a result of our advice or information supplied.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Zodiac crash at PAE |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Sigmo@aol.com
Does anyone know who's Zodiac crashed at Paine field (PAE) in Everett or what
happened?
The local papers are, as usual, very vague.
Mike Sigman
601XL
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 601 roll-over protection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 12/19/04 10:17 AM, Larry McFarland at larrymc@qconline.com wrote:
> Marty,
> I personally think to consider the number of 601s that may have turned over,
> if any, should
> be very small and the risk associated also immeasurably small. Haven't seen
> any report/picture
> of a 601 that's gone bottom up with a pilot inside, tho there was an empty
> one tied down in high winds.
A 601XL built near Detroit had such an accident last year. He had just
finished his Phase I testing and had an oil line come loose on his oil
cooler. He made a forced landing in a field and had it almost stopped when
the nose wheel hit a hole and it flipped over. I believe there were two on
board, neither was seriously hurt.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In Phase I testing.
do not archive.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 12/19/04 12:51 PM, Doug Mattson at dougmattson@isp.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Mattson" <dougmattson@isp.com>
>
> 601XL builders may want to check this out.I got this Friday.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zenith Aircraft Company [mailto:info@zenithair.com]
> To: dougmattson@isp.com
> Subject: Re: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co.
>
>> I have a Cam100 engine in a 601XL.
>> It seems the front fork is not rigid enough. Do you have any
>> suggestions to stiffen it up?
>>
>> Model: ZODIAC CH 601, 6-4466
>
> Please refer to the following attachment
> www.zenithair.com\zodiac\xl\data\601xl-nose-wheel-fork-letter.pdf
> Nick Heintz
> Zenith Aircraft Company
> support@zenithair.com
> http://www.zenithair.com
>
I had no luck with the above link, the following link worked for me.
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/601xl-nose-wheel-fork-letter.pdf
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In Phase I testing.
do not archive.
Message 16
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Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Last week I meant to forward the daily digest to my building buddy and
obviously hit reply instead of forward. It resulted in me sending the
entire daily digest back to the list. I am very sorry to have done that and
thank the gentlemen who pointed it out to me.
Sometimes I can be so sure about what I am about to do, and surely do it
wrong. I will be more careful in the future.
Tommy Walker in Alabama
N701TR (reserved)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
Brian- Thanks for the info. If this were a recall by GM (Which it should
be) there would be no cost involved to the person who bought the defective
product (Like Me). Come on Chris, think of your customers, not your pocket
book taking a hit. It's a safety factor!
Al Young
6-4759
Do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
That is interesting.. this updated fork looks awfully similar to the
original stock fork that has always been used on the 701.. !
do not archive
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Mattson" <dougmattson@isp.com>
>
> 601XL builders may want to check this out.I got this Friday.
>
Model: ZODIAC CH 601, 6-4466
Please refer to the following attachment
www.zenithair.com\zodiac\xl\data\601xl-nose-wheel-fork-letter.pdf
Nick Heintz
Zenith Aircraft Company
Message 22
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Yet Al if it were an AD from Cessna you would still have to buy the part
and then have it installed by an AME all at your cost. I understand what
your saying AL but Zenith is doing a lot more to inform builders that
others have had a problem when extreme conditions were met and this will
eliminate that problem. While other kit aircraft manufactures with proof
in hand and deaths attributed to the flaw still not able to bring
themselves to inform the rest of the kit owners as to the problem ( Spar
Tubes made from inferior stock in an ultralight trike). Heck after a 2
year period of lobbying and a few deaths, plus many homebuilt accidents
totaling the aircrafts were we able to get a propeller manufacturer to
post an AD grounding all planes with said propeller until the customer
replaces it at a $600.00 cost to the prop owner.
This response was a little long winded to what I was going to write but
I believe that Zenith excels in it's communication to its kit builders
and I as one can hardly expect them to provide a service in replacement
parts that is not a standard in there industry. I'm just glad to see
they are not afraid to tell us.
Mark Townsend
Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L
Osprey 2 serial # 751
www.ch601.org
www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Al Young
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
Brian- Thanks for the info. If this were a recall by GM (Which it
should
be) there would be no cost involved to the person who bought the
defective
product (Like Me). Come on Chris, think of your customers, not your
pocket
book taking a hit. It's a safety factor!
Al Young
6-4759
Do not archive
Message 23
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
Hello all. Want to get some advice.
I have been using alumaprep, alodine and then zinc oxide primer for all the ribs,
spars and internal parts. I finished the rudder and only primed the internal
surfaces of the skins where it was contacting the ribs. I buffed the skins
with scotch brite before priming. My original plan was to etch and alodine the
skins before assembly but decided against it. I was concerned that I might
bend the skins during the process. So I just prepared the skins inside and assembled.
I am a little concerned about using alumaprep for etching the final
assembled part. With all the rivets it may be tough to rinse it thoroughly.
I figuring with the rudder I can always prepare with scotch brite. But want to
get some advice before I skin the stab.
My question is, what is the best way to prepare the external skins. Before assembly,
after, alumaprep, scotch bite, does two part epoxy primer requite etching
???
Cheers.
Matt
601 XL
rudder done, working on the stab
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Etching skins |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ihab Awad <ihab.awad@gmail.com>
Hi Matt,
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:32:45 -0600, Matt & Jo <archermj@swbell.net> wrote:
> I have been using alumaprep, alodine and then zinc oxide primer ... does
> two part epoxy primer requite etching ???
For my information, do I read you correctly -- you are using 2-part
epoxy zinc *oxide* (i.e., not zinc *chromate*) primer? If so, what
brand is it and where do you get it?
The reason I ask is that I have found 2-part epoxy zinc *chromate*
(e.g., Epibond from Aircraft Spruce) and non-epoxy zinc *oxide* (e.g.
Tempo spray cans), but not epoxy zinc oxide.
Thanks for the help! Regards & peace,
Ihab
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Etching skins |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <lrm@isp.com>
It all depends on what your what you are trying to do, and the conditions
your aircraft will be subjected to.
Throw the Scot Brite away. It's only good for making a mess. It leaves a
lot of particles that are hard to totally clean up before painting. They
get in all the little nooks and crannies and magically appear when you shoot
that first coat. A good acid wash will do the trick to etch the metal,
rinse and dry well. I treat with zinc chromate before I do final riveting.
Larry N1345L
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Etching skins
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
>
> Hello all. Want to get some advice.
>
> I have been using alumaprep, alodine and then zinc oxide primer for all
the ribs, spars and internal parts. I finished the rudder and only primed
the internal surfaces of the skins where it was contacting the ribs. I
buffed the skins with scotch brite before priming. My original plan was to
etch and alodine the skins before assembly but decided against it. I was
concerned that I might bend the skins during the process. So I just
prepared the skins inside and assembled. I am a little concerned about
using alumaprep for etching the final assembled part. With all the rivets
it may be tough to rinse it thoroughly. I figuring with the rudder I can
always prepare with scotch brite. But want to get some advice before I skin
the stab.
>
> My question is, what is the best way to prepare the external skins.
Before assembly, after, alumaprep, scotch bite, does two part epoxy primer
requite etching ???
>
> Cheers.
>
> Matt
> 601 XL
> rudder done, working on the stab
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Recall-Al Young |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mike" <wizard-24@juno.com>
> I believe that Zenith excels in it's communication to its kit builders
I almost spit root beer from my nose when I read this sentence Mark. Now, what
exactly has ZAC done to communicate with any of its builders on this or any other
recall issue? Did THEY post the link to the Matronics list? How about sending
out via mail and/or email to the registered builders? After all, they have
that data. I know what you're saying in that ZAC may not be as bad as some....but
can't say that I agree with the statement you wrote above. I agree with Al
-- the part should be sent out free of charge (to those that bought the kit
-- not scratch builders) since it's a defect, regardless of what Cessna does.
Mike F.
Now I gotta build something else AGAIN!
Juno Gift Certificates
Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season.
http://www.juno.com/give
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
601XL builders may want to check this out.I got this Friday.
Since I can't seem to get the pdf. to load would someone tell me what Zac is saying
about the nose gear. Thanks Jack in Clovis CA
Message 28
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| Subject: | Builder's update pages |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Thanks Mike I had a good laugh as well about the root Beer. My
comparison is solely based on my experience with the Osprey 2 Where the
designer only ever made changes/suggestions in the newsletter, never
updated the plans and never offered back issues of a defunct newsletter.
So with major changes from the plans on the Fuselage (foot
longer-4inches wider) Longer wings ( add a foot to each wing)
RE-location of fuel tanks out of fuselage to wings, re-design of major
brackets for assemblies. Have a look at my builders Resources page on
www.osprey2.com <http://www.osprey2.com/> . This is by the way the only
resource for builders to find out safety issues and designer updates for
the Osprey 2! Not even the official Osprey website has a builders
section and no updates are in the most recent set of plans, it is left
up to the builder to build a safer plane.
Can more be done by companies? Sure a lot more, but I find that ZAC with
it's builders website and it's Newsletters does a great Job.
And in your final statement " Now I gotta build something else AGAIN!" I
built the Kit before assembling my plane from the original set of 601XL
plans! I would almost bet I have built more changed parts then anyone
out there! But to each there own feelings, I am not upset at anyone with
a difference of opinion in this matter, and I'm not a flag waver over
here for ZAC, I just know that there is a HELL of A LOT worse out there.
A HELL OF A LOT WORSE!
Mark Townsend
Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L
Osprey 2 serial # 751
www.ch601.org
www.Osprey2.com <http://www.osprey2.com/>
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Recall-Al Young
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mike" <wizard-24@juno.com>
> I believe that Zenith excels in it's communication to its kit builders
I almost spit root beer from my nose when I read this sentence Mark.
Now, what exactly has ZAC done to communicate with any of its builders
on this or any other recall issue? Did THEY post the link to the
Matronics list? How about sending out via mail and/or email to the
registered builders? After all, they have that data. I know what you're
saying in that ZAC may not be as bad as some....but can't say that I
agree with the statement you wrote above. I agree with Al -- the part
should be sent out free of charge (to those that bought the kit -- not
scratch builders) since it's a defect, regardless of what Cessna does.
Mike F.
Now I gotta build something else AGAIN!
Juno Gift Certificates
Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season.
http://www.juno.com/give
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Etching skins |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
The zinc oxide primer is from Airparts here in Wichita.
http://www.airpartsco.com/ . It is not a two part epoxy but a spray can.
Seems to work well. I have heard that the zinc oxide is a little safer than
the zinc chromate. I was planning on using a two part epoxy on the exterior
prior to final coat. The concern is what is the best way to prep the clad
skin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ihab Awad" <ihab.awad@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Etching skins
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ihab Awad <ihab.awad@gmail.com>
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:32:45 -0600, Matt & Jo <archermj@swbell.net> wrote:
>> I have been using alumaprep, alodine and then zinc oxide primer ... does
>> two part epoxy primer requite etching ???
>
> For my information, do I read you correctly -- you are using 2-part
> epoxy zinc *oxide* (i.e., not zinc *chromate*) primer? If so, what
> brand is it and where do you get it?
>
> The reason I ask is that I have found 2-part epoxy zinc *chromate*
> (e.g., Epibond from Aircraft Spruce) and non-epoxy zinc *oxide* (e.g.
> Tempo spray cans), but not epoxy zinc oxide.
>
> Thanks for the help! Regards & peace,
>
> Ihab
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Builder's update pages |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mike" <wizard-24@juno.com>
> designer only ever made changes/suggestions in the newsletter
And the newsletter (which I subscribe to) is indeed a good tool. I do find some
of it pretty much useless, such as the parts where Chris Heintz pontificates
about anything else other than flying. But, hopefully this nose fork item will
appear in the next issue of the newsletter.
> I built the Kit before assembling my plane from the original set of
> 601XL plans! I would almost bet I have built more changed parts then > anyone
out there!
Oh, I don't know about that! We'd be neck & neck in that race. Did you have to
build the entire rear fuselage again? Man, that was fun. (not) Not sure I can
count the number of do-overs due to changes in plans. But I agree things could
be a lot worse, although that certainly shouldn't be an excuse for avoiding
improvement. Oh well, one day when I get this thing in the air maybe I'll lighten
up.
Or maybe not. :)
Mike F.
Juno Gift Certificates
Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season.
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Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: 601 roll-over protection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
I remember doing some research in Roll over protection in airplanes, when this
was discussed in the list last year.
Based in statistics, the inertia and weight of a 601 is so low, that the rudder
and structure will be enough to protect the pilot inside the wide cabin, if
the speed of the (kind of controled) crash is faster, the plane nose (firewall)
and the landing gear will absorb the impact before the plane will roll over,
because as mentioned before the inertia and weight is not very much in the
Zenith planes (701 and 601).
This is only my personal conclusion, based also in watching personaly a C-172 roll
over in a landing...
The process was so slow that if it was filmed, could be thought that it was in
slow montion. the harm to the plane was minimal and the pilot and passenger walked
out unharmed, but umbarased in front of the happy crowd, was in a local fly
in in a land in the mark contest.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Just my opinion
Saludos
Gary Gower
Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 roll-over protection
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Martin Pohrille
>
> Hi,
>
> I've been lurking on the Zenith and Sonex lists for several month
> trying to make a decision to build or not and which aircraft.
> Has anyone come up with a rollbar for the 601? Do people think it is
> necessary?
>
> Thanks
> Marty
>
Marty,
This item was discussed rather intensely a couple of years ago, yet none
of the builders or persons advocating roll bar protection have shown any
serious progress.
That is, "roll bar ideas" that, beyond calculation, have been tested to
prove satisfactory protection.
I personally think to consider the number of 601s that may have turned over,
if any, should
be very small and the risk associated also immeasurably small. Haven't seen
any report/picture
of a 601 that's gone bottom up with a pilot inside, tho there was an empty
one tied down in high winds.
If you fly safe, you should be able put this idea way out there on the "to
do list".
Build what you think suits your need. Both planes are nice product when
built right.
I just like the space in the 601, visibility, load capacity and especially
the
Zenith support and builders group best.
Larry McFarland - 601hds @ www.macsmachine.com
---------------------------------
Message 32
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| Subject: | XL Nose Fork "Recall" ???? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
Jack,
The note from Chris is posted on their ZAC's site,
under Important note from the designer. Says..."Upon
inspection of several aircraft it's come to my
attention that the original nosewheel fork of the XL
is quite flexible with side loads, and that cracks may
begin to form ... with excessive side loads..." Then
goes on to say that ZAC will be glad to send out a
doubler for $40; order form attached.
Granted, the $40 aint a big thing. It's their
attitude that chafes me.
This is *NOT* a newly discovered defect in the design.
This *IS* an obvious omission in the creation of the
XL drawings. XL is merely a refinement of the 601HD
and HDS models. They (and the 701) all have doublers,
as has been pointed out. The fact that the XL
drawings dont have the doubler is a mistake in drawing
up the plans, not a design problem.
And for the record, my irritation is not with with the
design. I think Chris has put together a series of
extremely practical and simple-to-build designs. my
gripe is with the boys in Mexico. Their obsession
with marketing, and relying on their builders to
correct the multitude of mistakes that came out with
the original drawings. I came in a year after Mike
and Mark and others, who have had to contend the early
flood of problems-- many trivial, but many not.
As for ZAC communicating this problem with their
builders ---
ZAC has the mailing address and email for all of their
customers. Did they voluntarily send out notice? --
No, they didn't even respond until they were pushed
into it. And then it's only a "note from Chris",
buried in their site as an notice from the designer.
Not exactly my idea of a "recall".
AS one of the many who has plopped down $16 big ones
for the kit, I am offended that ZAC wants to suck $40
out of my pocket to correct a problem that they
created, that they should have caught, and they should
now correct.... Not my idea of good public
relations.
Respectfully,
Rico
[tripped up by the soapbox]
[sorry, guys -- it's lack of sleep from standing the
midnight watch. But I've been waiting for the
opportunity]
and right, do not archive
__________________________________
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: FW: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 12/19/04 9:45 PM, Jack Russell at clojan@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> 601XL builders may want to check this out.I got this Friday.
>
> Since I can't seem to get the pdf. to load would someone tell me what Zac is
> saying about the nose gear. Thanks Jack in Clovis CA
>
Try this link instead:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/601xl-nose-wheel-fork-letter.pdf
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In Phase I testing.
do not archive.
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