---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/02/05: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:25 AM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Matt Dralle) 2. 04:43 AM - Re: torque for nylon-insert self-locking AN3 bolts/nuts (Bob Miller) 3. 05:00 AM - An Unusual Visit from William Wynne Yesterday (Phil Maxson) 4. 05:43 AM - Re: Brake ? (ron dewees) 5. 06:29 AM - CH300 Plans (Cdngoose) 6. 07:18 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 01/01/05 (Grant Corriveau) 7. 07:34 AM - Brake lines (Grant Corriveau) 8. 10:01 AM - Zodiac XL elevator sensitivity reduction? (DEGlass1@aol.com) 9. 10:32 AM - Re: Zodiac XL elevator sensitivity reduction? (Dave Kubassek) 10. 10:43 AM - Re: Zodiac XL elevator sensitivity reduction? (Bryan Martin) 11. 02:16 PM - Re: Finally got my 601 HDS! (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 12. 04:20 PM - Oil and water rad question (rical26) 13. 06:39 PM - Re: Oil and water rad question (Mike Fothergill) 14. 06:42 PM - Re: Zodiac XL elevator sensitivity reduction? (Pwalsh4539@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:56 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] DNA: do not archive --> Zenith-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Lister, Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. ------- [This is an automated posting.] ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:17 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: torque for nylon-insert self-locking AN3 bolts/nuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" I want to thank everyone for their quick and informative responses to my torque inquiry. It's a miracle to me that anyone ever successfully and safely built their own airplanes before the internet! Bob ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:31 AM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: Zenith-List: An Unusual Visit from William Wynne Yesterday --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" William Wynne stopped by yesterday to check out the Corvair installation on my plane. What's so unusual about that, you may ask? First, it was New Year's Day, a holiday. Second, he was here in New Jersey visiting his and Grace's family and between events, they called me up and decided to drop by. Mind you, I'm not an old family friend. I rebuilt my engine in his hangar in May and have been plugging away at the installation since then here in my garage. I also stopped by his hangar while on a family vacation to Florida in October. While I was there he said, "I'll be in NJ in December. Maybe I'll drop by." Those are the only two times I have seen him in person, until yesterday. He also brought a new oil top cover that he has been developing and testing ( http://www.flycorvair.com/oilsystem.html ) and installed it while we talked! He also found a few other things that he recommended changing and gave me many more ideas to work on. William is genuinely concerned about the builders who have taken on the task of building their own Corvair conversions. What other engine conversion developer would take the time to "drop by" if they were in my area? I can't expect there are many. Willam and Grace are a class act and I'm a big fan of theirs. They are also nice people to spend a few hours with! Meeting people like that has made this project much more fulfilling that I had expected. Disclaimer: I am in no way connected with William's business, other than being a satisfied customer. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair - Installing engine - panel is next ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:35 AM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Brake ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Jeffrey Davidson wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Davidson" > > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" >> >> > > > >>What is the date of the plans showing the latest toe brake geometry? And >>what is the page or drawing call out? >> >> > >Jeff, > If you contact Matco directly, they have drawings on the modifications >to the Zenith 601 HD/HDS brake pedal assembly. If they are no longer >available directly from Matco, let me know and I'll dig them out for you. >Matco had a great display on this issue at Airventure 2003 or was it 2002? > Jeff Davidson >Jeff, > > Would also appreciate a look at the mods or a link to them. I have the old style. Thanks Ron DeWees N601TD Do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:51 AM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: Zenith-List: CH300 Plans --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> I have had a request lately to find a set of CH300 plans for sale. Is there anyone on this list that may have an old set they want to part with? Please let me know. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 01/01/05 From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > Can anyone direct me to the Great Planes web > site? I understand they have a 12" spinner kit. Mike (UHS Spinners?) makes a nice range of fg spinners for the Warp props... he's usually on this list. Dropping the seat 'pan' shouldn't be too difficult. Just unrivet the existing 'hammock' and install one that barely clears the lower skin. Have fun! -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Brake lines From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau Some food for thought regarding brake lines... From the latest (1/2005) Transport Canada Aviation Safety Letter: excerpted and edited slightly ... "When constructing amateur built aircraft, CARs... states 'Materials shall be appropriate and should conform to aviation quality specifications.' Brake line assemblies in certified aircraft use: Aluminium alloy 5052 tubing; rubber hose that meets ...(specs)... with an operating range of -54C to 121C; or stainless steel braided Teflon hose ... with an operating range of -54C to 232C... Nylon tubing with a recommended operating range of -51C to 100C, are frequently used in amateur-built aircraft braking systems. This tubing is used because it is lightweight, flexible, inexpensive, able to withstand brake system pressure, and is compatible with Mil-5606 hydraulic fluid." ... The article goes on to point out that under the right/wrong? conditions, even light aircraft brakes might exceed the upper limit of nylon tube, leading to a brake fluid leak and fire. They cite a case of an RV-3 that was subjected to a series of high speed runs to familiarize a new owner pilot. The right side brake line failed resulting in a fire and damage to the wheel pant, tire and wheel assembly. Thanks to an eagle-eyed ATC person, the fire was noticed right away, and the pilot was able to extinguish it before it caused worse damage. in conclusion: "...the pilot-owner has relaced the nylong tubing with steel brake line at the interface between the brake assembly and brake line." fwiw -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:45 AM PST US From: DEGlass1@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL elevator sensitivity reduction? --> Zenith-List message posted by: DEGlass1@aol.com HNY05, Listers, and thanks for all the great tips! As I build the fuse of the XL, I've been thinking about the elevator sensitivity found in the demo plane ride at Zenith. The proportion of aileron deflection force to elevator force seems very high, and makes for a "jumpy" ride, at least to this low-time pilot. Already considering piano hinges for the ailerons, I'd like to get your thoughts on a couple of elevator control mods: - reducing the elevator throw per stick deflection, by connecting to points on the stick a little closer to the hinge point; - adding a small viscous damper cylinder to the bottom of the stick, that would simulate elevator surface force, and slow down the pitch sensitivity. How is the elevator sensitivity working out for those already flying? What would you change? Thanks- David Glass Forest, VA Zodiac XL fuse, panel and engine Partnered with my brother-in-law, the flying-surfaces builder ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:32:45 AM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL elevator sensitivity reduction? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL elevator sensitivity reduction? Coming from 30 years of flying champs and cubs...... I experieced the same feelings with regard to elevator sensitivity,,, at first.... Give yourself 10-15 hrs to get the feel of it... Not unlike any other aircraft ... You simply have to get the feel of it..... After 15 - 20 hrs you'll throw it around the sky like cub or any other seat of the pants airplane.. dave kubassek, C-FDSF 601 XL, 0235 Lyc. I wouldnt change anything....... > deflection force to elevator force seems very high, and makes for a > "jumpy" ride, > at least to this low-time pilot. > > How is the elevator sensitivity working out for those already flying? > What > would you change? > > Thanks- > > David Glass > Forest, VA > Zodiac XL fuse, panel and engine > Partnered with my brother-in-law, the flying-surfaces builder > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL elevator sensitivity reduction? From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 1/2/05 12:59 PM, DEGlass1@aol.com at DEGlass1@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: DEGlass1@aol.com > > HNY05, Listers, and thanks for all the great tips! > > As I build the fuse of the XL, I've been thinking about the elevator > sensitivity found in the demo plane ride at Zenith. The proportion of > aileron > deflection force to elevator force seems very high, and makes for a "jumpy" > ride, > at least to this low-time pilot. > Already considering piano hinges for the ailerons, I'd like to get your > thoughts on a couple of elevator control mods: > - reducing the elevator throw per stick deflection, by connecting to points > on the stick a little closer to the hinge point; > - adding a small viscous damper cylinder to the bottom of the stick, that > would simulate elevator surface force, and slow down the pitch sensitivity. > > How is the elevator sensitivity working out for those already flying? What > would you change? > You will probably notice a significant difference in pitch sensitivity when flying solo in the XL. With the more forward CG the pitch forces are noticeably higher and the plane is more stable. The pitch control does get pretty sensitive when you the CG near the aft limit but I found that I got used to it quickly and never found it too alarming. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:03 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Finally got my 601 HDS! From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Cool! I would personally not change the bungee ratings in the main gear...Firstly I'm not sure a bigger bungee will actually fit in the box. Plus if you land on unimproved fields you will certainly need all the stiffness of the main gear...In other words it DOES move! Sounds like you have a nice plane there. You don't say how well it has been built, the quality of construction varies wildly in my experience. The little improvements you describe are very typical and pretty minor in the grand scheme of things...My cowling doesn't fit either but I think I will leave it to the next owner to fix...Its not that big of a deal and should not decrease the value significantly. The seat lowering could be as simple as taking out the "hammock" part of the seat pan....A simple strip riveted at the front and back...If you need more than this will give you your in trouble....But you'd need to be a bout 7 foot tall to need more than this....:) All the best. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Glasserow Subject: Zenith-List: Finally got my 601 HDS! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" --> A Happy New Year to all! May your planes fly straight, and the same for your rivet lines! I've been posting to the list for quite some time now asking lots of questions and getting really good answers and suggestions. I'd like to thank all of you, and by that I mean all of the list members, for your interest. If it hadn't been for the list I don't think I would have gone through with this purchase because of support issues that I read about with some other plane manufacturers and spotty builder support. So , here goes my saga: I finally closed on a rather well used 601 HDS last week after a lengthly negotiation. It was built in 1999 and flew off its restrictions in early 2002. The plane has 270 TT and the engine was O timed (O-235 L2C) in 1997. The engine logbook is also showing 270 hours. The prop is a WarpDrive ground adjustable 3 blade. The plane is well equipped radiowise with a Garmin 250XL GPS/ NAV/COM, a Terra 250 Transponder and a Terra encoding altimeter. It also has a full vacuum system with backup.(Both leak, how's that for starters?) However, the former owner did NO maintance on the plane and it needs new nose gear bungees, and the main gear struts have to be dropped and de-corrosioned. At the same time I'll replace the main bungees since they're gonna be off. I'm thinking of replacing the 2 1080HD bungees with one 1280 HD on each side so as to make the main gear less stiff. Any thoughts or comments? I also need to check with the factory to see if the wing spar plate AD has been complied with. The left side steering rod is bent and needs to be replaced (I'm going to add stiffener sleeves to both steering rods) and there are lots of other little things that need attention. The brake cylinders are going to come off and go back to Matco to have the intensifier kits installed, the throttles creep at low throttle and the co-pilot side is sticky. The fuel boost pumps need to be checked to make sure they are pumping properly and one of the under wing gascolators needs to be replaced. Cabin heat works but there's only one duct on the co-pilots side. Therefore we've got to re-do the hoses and add a splitter to vent some heat into the pilot side footwell. It will also help to install steering rod boots to seal up the firewall. The prop blades are going back to WarpDrive to have the nickle plate installed on the leading edges and at the same time I'd like to install a 12" spinner. Can anyone direct me to the Great Planes web site? I understand they have a 12" spinner kit. WarpDrive only offers a 10". I've also got to lower the seat height at least 2" and I think that's going to be a major project unto itself. I'm open to any suggestions for improvements at this point so please let me know your thoughts. BTW I'm located in West Central New Jersey and fly out of Alexandria Field, N85, if anyone is building locally, or is close enough or interested in flying in for a chat. I'll trade rides in your 601 for rides in my Cub! Jeff Glasserow CH601 HDS N6384E '41 J3 Cub NC38347 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:11 PM PST US From: "rical26" Subject: Zenith-List: Oil and water rad question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "rical26" Hi, I have a 601 with a 912UL, At -10 to -15 C,how much of my rad (oil and water) should I cover and with what? So that would give me a guideline where to start. thanks Richard ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:47 PM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Oil and water rad question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill Hi Richard; At those temps ,I tape over the oil cooler 100% and then the water rad about 50% for starters. Watch the temps on climbout. Mike CH-601HDS UHS Spinners rical26 wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "rical26" > > Hi, I have a 601 with a 912UL, At -10 to -15 C,how much of my rad (oil and water) should I cover and with what? So that would give me a guideline where to start. > thanks Richard > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:05 PM PST US From: Pwalsh4539@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL elevator sensitivity reduction? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Pwalsh4539@aol.com I was also a low time pilot (still am) when I built and test flew my 601 hd. Only Cessna 152s, 172s and Piper Archers before that. Compared to those, the 601 was verrrry sensitive in pitch. I got used to it real quick. Remember also, the 601 is much lighter. It is sort of like comparing a BMW to an 18 wheeler, which is easier to handle? I say, just go by the plans. Just my little opinion, but may be it will help a bit. Regards, Patrick Walsh