---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/09/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:37 AM - Re: Looking for a 601 owner (Hilary Cunningham) 2. 03:34 AM - 801 constructors in Europe (Gary) 3. 09:33 AM - Re: 801 constructors in Europe (Robert Berube) 4. 10:21 AM - 601XL/Subaru EA81 W&B (HFiske@direcway.com) 5. 11:01 AM - 601XL TD Grove gear (Bob Reinero) 6. 02:13 PM - Re: 801 constructors in Europe (Gary) 7. 02:50 PM - Re: 801 constructors in Europe (Brian Hope) 8. 02:51 PM - Re: 801 constructors in Europe (Robert Berube) 9. 03:47 PM - Re: 801 constructors in Europe (Gary) 10. 03:51 PM - Please bear with me (Scott Peper) 11. 04:58 PM - Re: 801 constructors in Europe (Thilo Kind) 12. 05:30 PM - Re: Please bear with me () 13. 08:27 PM - Re: Pilot Report (Matt & Jo) 14. 08:32 PM - [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 15. 08:39 PM - [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:20 AM PST US From: Hilary Cunningham Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Looking for a 601 owner --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hilary Cunningham Hi Mark I will get details to you off line. Hilary ZK ZEN Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: Zenith-List: Looking for a 601 owner > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > Would the owner of ZK-ZOT be on this list? > > Mark Townsend > Alma, Ontario > Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L > Osprey 2 serial # 751 > www.ch601.org > www.Osprey2.com > do not archive > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:50 AM PST US From: "Gary" Subject: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary" Hello, I am interested in building an 801 in France or the UK. I have booked a slot to go to the Mexico factory to build the rudder in March. Is anyone else trying to get the 801 approved and eligible in either of these countries? France changed the rules September 1998 and I have yet to find anyone who can give me an unambiguous answer about the approval process in either country. Its a mine field. There was JAR then EASA ... It seems like its not going to be easy. Why is the 701 flying here in UK and not the 801? Have you come across any structural issues that would cause authorities any concern? Here is the list of PFA approved kitplanes. http://www.pfa.org.uk/aircraft_technical/accepted_aircraft/aircrafttypelist.pdf If it's not here you cannot build it in the UK. They want compliance to FAR 23 or JAR 23 proven! Or its got to be an antique. CH of course is French so I hope he will assist with approval procedures in France or UK. There are a few dozen inspections required during building. In fact you cannot start until they inspect your workshop. Cheers Gary No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:13 AM PST US From: "Robert Berube" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" Hi Gary, Part of the problem is that the PFA does not allow as yet 4 place experimental aircraft. Do not archive Bob Berube RV9 - 701 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Subject: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary" Hello, I am interested in building an 801 in France or the UK. I have booked a slot to go to the Mexico factory to build the rudder in March. Is anyone else trying to get the 801 approved and eligible in either of these countries? France changed the rules September 1998 and I have yet to find anyone who can give me an unambiguous answer about the approval process in either country. Its a mine field. There was JAR then EASA ... It seems like its not going to be easy. Why is the 701 flying here in UK and not the 801? Have you come across any structural issues that would cause authorities any concern? Here is the list of PFA approved kitplanes. http://www.pfa.org.uk/aircraft_technical/accepted_aircraft/aircrafttypelist. pdf If it's not here you cannot build it in the UK. They want compliance to FAR 23 or JAR 23 proven! Or its got to be an antique. CH of course is French so I hope he will assist with approval procedures in France or UK. There are a few dozen inspections required during building. In fact you cannot start until they inspect your workshop. Cheers Gary No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:54 AM PST US From: HFiske@direcway.com Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL/Subaru EA81 W&B --> Zenith-List message posted by: HFiske@direcway.com Noticed another post about a month ago about this. I asked the same question about a year ago. How about guys. If I build it, can I fly with more than my grand daughter's teddy bear??? Herb in NM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:17 AM PST US From: "Bob Reinero" Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL TD Grove gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Reinero" I have ordered the gun drilled lightweight (15 Lbs.) lighter than standard, gear from Grove. The material is 7/8 thick and narrower than the standard gear. Grove said several others have ordered the same configuration but he did not know how you were modifying the attach points to accommodate the new size. Pleas respond with a description or pictures of your solution. Thanks in advance. Bob Reinero Encinitas California. (San Diego) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:38 PM PST US From: "Gary" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary" Hi Bob, That was true but I have just read a post that the 4 seat Jabiru J400 is being constructed in the UK by several builders. The type was under survey last year and I think it has passed. But I quote from the PFA magazine " Several airframe reinforcements have had to be made .... because of extra load tests needed to meet the PFAs requirements ..." So the "ban" on 4 seaters is over, they just have to be stronger. There was very likely a similar concern about the 801s strength. The ball is in Zeniths court again and I hope they can restart their PFA negotiations! Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Berube" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" > > Hi Gary, > Part of the problem is that the PFA does not allow as yet 4 place > experimental aircraft. > > Do not archive > > Bob Berube RV9 - 701 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary" > > Hello, > I am interested in building an 801 in France or the UK. > I have booked a slot to go to the Mexico factory to build the rudder in > March. > Is anyone else trying to get the 801 approved and eligible in either of > these countries? > France changed the rules September 1998 and I have yet to find anyone who > can give me an unambiguous answer about the approval process in either > country. Its a mine field. There was JAR then EASA ... > It seems like its not going to be easy. Why is the 701 flying here in UK and > not the 801? > > Have you come across any structural issues that would cause authorities any > concern? > Here is the list of PFA approved kitplanes. > http://www.pfa.org.uk/aircraft_technical/accepted_aircraft/aircrafttypelist. > pdf > > If it's not here you cannot build it in the UK. They want compliance to FAR > 23 or JAR 23 proven! Or its got to be an antique. > > CH of course is French so I hope he will assist with approval procedures in > France or UK. > > There are a few dozen inspections required during building. In fact you > cannot start until they inspect your workshop. > > Cheers > > Gary > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:50:07 PM PST US From: "Brian Hope" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brian Hope" Hi Gary, via a different route this time! Four seaters have been allowed on PFA Permit for several years now, and there are a handful of 2+2 and four seat Jodels that have been built. The Jab J400 is the first modern kit to get approval, and the Vans RV10 has just been given initial approval for builders to start building. The Belgian Mission M212 prototype, which has been built with PFA being involved from very early on in the design, is succesfully flying and looking good. It too could well be approved for building some time in 2005. regards, Brian. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:32 PM PST US From: "Robert Berube" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" Gary, Thanks for the update on the 4 seats, that's good news. Hopefully the 801 gets the nod. Do not archive Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary" Hi Bob, That was true but I have just read a post that the 4 seat Jabiru J400 is being constructed in the UK by several builders. The type was under survey last year and I think it has passed. But I quote from the PFA magazine " Several airframe reinforcements have had to be made .... because of extra load tests needed to meet the PFAs requirements ..." So the "ban" on 4 seaters is over, they just have to be stronger. There was very likely a similar concern about the 801s strength. The ball is in Zeniths court again and I hope they can restart their PFA negotiations! Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Berube" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" > > Hi Gary, > Part of the problem is that the PFA does not allow as yet 4 place > experimental aircraft. > > Do not archive > > Bob Berube RV9 - 701 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary" > > Hello, > I am interested in building an 801 in France or the UK. > I have booked a slot to go to the Mexico factory to build the rudder in > March. > Is anyone else trying to get the 801 approved and eligible in either of > these countries? > France changed the rules September 1998 and I have yet to find anyone who > can give me an unambiguous answer about the approval process in either > country. Its a mine field. There was JAR then EASA ... > It seems like its not going to be easy. Why is the 701 flying here in UK and > not the 801? > > Have you come across any structural issues that would cause authorities any > concern? > Here is the list of PFA approved kitplanes. > http://www.pfa.org.uk/aircraft_technical/accepted_aircraft/aircrafttypelist. > pdf > > If it's not here you cannot build it in the UK. They want compliance to FAR > 23 or JAR 23 proven! Or its got to be an antique. > > CH of course is French so I hope he will assist with approval procedures in > France or UK. > > There are a few dozen inspections required during building. In fact you > cannot start until they inspect your workshop. > > Cheers > > Gary > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:56 PM PST US From: "Gary" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary" Hi Brian, Small world. Pssst! We are supposed to talk about Zeniths here. How much time and effort do you think it would take to get the 801 PFA approved? Surely with CH's reputation and maybe 10% of the flying homebuilt marketplace how tough could it be to get the aircraft sorted to the PFA's satisfaction!? The design is a marvel of modern engineering. Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Hope" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brian Hope" > > Hi Gary, via a different route this time! Four seaters have been allowed on > PFA Permit for several years now, and there are a handful of 2+2 and four > seat Jodels that have been built. The Jab J400 is the first modern kit to > get approval, and the Vans RV10 has just been given initial approval for > builders to start building. > The Belgian Mission M212 prototype, which has been built with PFA being > involved from very early on in the design, is succesfully flying and looking > good. It too could well be approved for building some time in 2005. > regards, Brian. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:50 PM PST US From: "Scott Peper" Subject: Zenith-List: Please bear with me --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Peper" Sorry to try your patience but this request will take a while to get through. BACKGROUND: I am a private pilot (very low time) and an A&P (non-practicing) homebuilder currently finishing up my first project (MiniMax). I'm 6'4" and about 210lbs. I had to modifiy my MM from original plans in order to achieve necessary head and leg room. Took a while to engineer around this but I am quite pleased with the results. Should be flying by this Spring. I have been lurking on this list for about six months as part of my search for my next project. This time I plan to join with a partner, a mega hour A4 Vietnam era Navy Aviator who currently flys a Challenger as an ultralight. He is much more a pilot than an builder while I'm the opposite. We had settled on a CH701. Speed and endurance are not factors for either of us. SITUATION: We have run into a CH601HD project for sale. The price is very reasonable and therefore we are considering purchasing. It's quite complete, about 60% finished, Subaru conversion, both HD and HDS wings (partial complete), fuselage on gear. I can't say that the workmanship is "outstanding" (I have been accused of being too particular) but is probably airworthy. The project is plans built but includes many Zenith manufactured components. No builders log (or plans for that matter) evident. PLAN: We would purchase a set of Zenith 601HD plans, the entire project, assess the status in detail, take apart/inspect/repair/replace/upgrade/rebuild/document/finish/certify amateur-built experimental and fly under Sport Pilot. QUESTIONS: 1.. Zenith website describes 601HD as 2.. Can a 601HD realistically accomodate someone my size? 3.. Are there modifications that can be made (eg. raising the canopy) to accomplish this? 4.. Leg & foot room (6'4" comes with big dogs) modifications? 5.. If we decide to go with a different engine (Rotax 912 or Jabaru) new firewall forward kit necessary? Scott Peper ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:47 PM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Gary, welcome to the world of buerocraty in Europe. I suggest you track down the German dealer of Zenithair. One of his employees is building a CH 801 - if I remember - under Austrian law. This guy might be able to get you some answers. I know, that building can be undertaken in Germany, but experimental planes are limitied to maximum 2 seats - which rules out the CH 801. From the little I know the countries with the easist approach towards home building are Switzerland and Luxembourg. There is another route, if you are an US citizien: build the airplane as a N-registrated plane. I know, that the FAA regs say that the construction has to be undertaken within the US, but I have heard of folks who did that in Europe, gave the FAA an US address, and paid the DAR to come over to do the inspection. I have heard from at least two DARs, that they are more than happy to do that, if they can get a trip to Europe out of it. In order to fly your N-registred experimental plane in Europe you will need approval from the local aviation authorities. This is a surpisingly easy and free-of charge process. Good luck - please let me know, what you find out. I'm considering building another plane as well, but it looks like I'm stuck in Europe for a while... Thilo Kind ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary" Subject: Zenith-List: 801 constructors in Europe > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary" > > Hello, > I am interested in building an 801 in France or the UK. > I have booked a slot to go to the Mexico factory to build the rudder in March. > Is anyone else trying to get the 801 approved and eligible in either of these countries? > France changed the rules September 1998 and I have yet to find anyone who can give me an unambiguous answer about the approval process in either country. Its a mine field. There was JAR then EASA ... > It seems like its not going to be easy. Why is the 701 flying here in UK and not the 801? > > Have you come across any structural issues that would cause authorities any concern? > Here is the list of PFA approved kitplanes. > http://www.pfa.org.uk/aircraft_technical/accepted_aircraft/aircrafttypelist. pdf > > If it's not here you cannot build it in the UK. They want compliance to FAR 23 or JAR 23 proven! Or its got to be an antique. > > CH of course is French so I hope he will assist with approval procedures in France or UK. > > There are a few dozen inspections required during building. In fact you cannot start until they inspect your workshop. > > Cheers > > Gary > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Please bear with me From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: There is a builder on the list I correspond with regularly who is 6"4 and weighs, well, he weighs much more thn you do! He has modified his HD to accomodate himself and is quite happy with the results. He also has the Subaru conversion, but, like many others, has had more than a few problems with it. I'm 6', weight 225 and DO NOT fit under the canopy comfortably on my HDS. I will be making a seat pan modification this week to see if that eleviates the problem.. If not, there are other solutions to seat height, the most practical was forwarded to me by another builder down in Georgia. I want to take the simple route first and then move on as necessary. Lastly, there are Oversize (in height) Canopies available from Tod's Canopies and the cost is quitereasonable. The only other mod to be made to an oversize canopy is the rear anopy support has to be remade to accomodate the additional height of your new canopy. Your biggest oproblem as I see it is not having any builers logs or paperwork. If you know the original builders name the factory can give you his serial # and plan # and you might be able to track him down that way to see if he still has any of the paperwork. Sometimes builers scribed those #'s onto some of the building panels. Please contact me off list at Jeffglass@bigfoot.com for more information if you'd like. Good luck. Jeff CH 601 HDS N6384E > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Peper" > > Sorry to try your patience but this request will take a while to get > through. > > BACKGROUND: I am a private pilot (very low time) and an A&P > (non-practicing) homebuilder currently finishing up my first project > (MiniMax). I'm 6'4" and about 210lbs. I had to modifiy my MM from > original plans in order to achieve necessary head and leg room. Took a > while to engineer around this but I am quite pleased with the results. > Should be flying by this Spring. > > I have been lurking on this list for about six months as part of my > search for my next project. This time I plan to join with a partner, a > mega hour A4 Vietnam era Navy Aviator who currently flys a Challenger as > an ultralight. He is much more a pilot than an builder while I'm the > opposite. > > We had settled on a CH701. Speed and endurance are not factors for > either of us. > > SITUATION: We have run into a CH601HD project for sale. The price is > very reasonable and therefore we are considering purchasing. It's quite > complete, about 60% finished, Subaru conversion, both HD and HDS wings > (partial complete), fuselage on gear. I can't say that the workmanship > is "outstanding" (I have been accused of being too particular) but is > probably airworthy. The project is plans built but includes many Zenith > manufactured components. No builders log (or plans for that matter) > evident. > > PLAN: We would purchase a set of Zenith 601HD plans, the entire > project, assess the status in detail, take > apart/inspect/repair/replace/upgrade/rebuild/document/finish/certify > amateur-built experimental and fly under Sport Pilot. > > QUESTIONS: > 1.. Zenith website describes 601HD as > 2.. Can a 601HD realistically accomodate someone my size? > 3.. Are there modifications that can be made (eg. raising the canopy) > to accomplish this? 4.. Leg & foot room (6'4" comes with big dogs) > modifications? > 5.. If we decide to go with a different engine (Rotax 912 or Jabaru) > new firewall forward kit necessary? > Scott Peper > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:39 PM PST US From: "Matt & Jo" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Pilot Report --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" I have a new web site. I had a lot of hits and I exceeded my bandwidth on a regular basis. So if you kept getting a error screen that is why. So I have a new site. www.zodiacxl.com Hope it works a little better than the last > > Well got a couple of things to share. First I got a chance to fly an XL > the other day. What a nice little aircraft. I thought I should get a > flight before I bought the rest of the kit. Kent Bauer was kind enough to > take me up. What a great flight . I ordered the rest of the kit. I > have some pictures and more detailed impressions on my website. > > Second, Measure twice cut once! Some lessons learned. I had some > problems with the predrilled skins on the horizontal stab. In my opinion > the placement of the end ribs is critical and should be specified on the > drawings. What happened is when I went to drill the skins I ended up with > the rivet line very close to the bend radius on the forward spar. It is > still on the flat so it will be ok. The caution here is to be very > careful with the placement of the end ribs if you have the predrilled > skins. I have been corresponding with ZAC and I think they may specify > this on there drawings. I have the correspondence and pics on my website. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:42 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Charles F. Long Subject: Low Cost, Light Weight Canopy Cover http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/charles.long@gm.com.01.09.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [ Charles F. Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Charles F. Long Subject: Low Cost, Light Weight Cargo Net http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/charles.long@gm.com.2.01.09.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com