Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:23 AM - Re: vw engines for ch 701 (Dirk Slabbert)
2. 01:30 AM - Re: vw engines for ch 701 (Dirk Slabbert)
3. 05:56 AM - 601 XL Jabiru Performance (Jake Reyna)
4. 07:08 AM - PegaStol Wing Slat Jig for Sale (Larry Martin)
5. 07:32 AM - Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) (Larry McFarland)
6. 07:36 AM - Re: 601 XL Proformance (cgalley)
7. 07:50 AM - speaking of engines was vw engines for ch 701 (baileys)
8. 07:54 AM - Corvaersionir Conversion (Charles Mulloy)
9. 07:57 AM - Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) (Roger Roy)
10. 08:26 AM - Re: defroster (Bob Miller)
11. 09:03 AM - Re: Stratus EA-81 w/dual Bing carbs on 601 HDS (Jerry Latimer)
12. 09:04 AM - Re: vw engines for ch 701 (Monty Graves)
13. 09:32 AM - Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) (Monty Graves)
14. 11:24 AM - Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) (roy vickski)
15. 12:54 PM - Zodiac XL DFW area (Floyd Gantt)
16. 02:18 PM - Re: 601 XL Proformance (xl)
17. 03:05 PM - Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) (N5SL)
18. 05:17 PM - Re: Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) (Carlos Sa)
19. 07:05 PM - first flight N601TD (ron dewees)
20. 08:08 PM - Re: 601 XL Proformance (Pete Krotje)
21. 09:40 PM - Re: first flight N601TD (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: vw engines for ch 701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
Gary, bet you have a light Rotax up front!
I was referring to changes is glide ratio due to 60 lbs heavier up front.
This extra weight does'nt stay up on its own, you'll have to do something to keep
it there, like more wing area, up elevator, which causes more drag, which requires
more power, which is heavier, this means beefing up the front end, this
is heavier again, then the w/b, then no payload, soon you'll be thinking of
enlarging the tail .....
The last thing you need is an aircraft full of bad habits en nasty surprises, I'm
a firm believer in Murphy's law : if its there it WILL happen!
One thing leads to another in aviation, all are compromises of one another, my
advise would be to stick to the design specs, strictly, then you end up with a
friendly forgiving plane , a joy to fly with nice control harmony, the one Chris
Heintz intended.
Like the one you have!!
Dirk 701
Bushpilot in Africa.
( Mark I hope you saw this too! )
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw engines for ch 701
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Dirk,
Well, I think we got motorglider wings in our 701 :-)...
We fly from a 2,100 ft @ 5,000 fl ASL grass field and for the firsts flights
we had a very competent bush pilot (he flys a C-180 and a 230 HP powered highly
Modified Stintson) that really knows how to fly high and short strips.
He couldnt believe how our 701 Glided and kept atitude in aproach, He had the
same previous idea that you have before he flew it. In fact, in the very
fist flight he came in fast (for the 701 aproach speed) and glided in ground
effect very long before it settled. He really liked the plane.
Also depends what are you compareing the 701 with a Quicksilver MX II or a Virus
:-)
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Dirk Slabbert <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
This is true, the 701 is no glider, add weight up front and what do you get,
a lawn dart!
Engine out will put you in VERY steep descent, limiting your options.
One should be very carefull around these equations, they were done this way for
a reason.
Dirk.
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Boultinghouse
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: vw engines for ch 701
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Boultinghouse"
> -----Original Message-----
> See where the Rotax comes in? 80 hp for 146lbs installed, with
> the cooling sorted out, easy to see how Chris designed the 701
> with this engine in mind.
Actually, Chris designed the 701 for the Rotax 582, which is even lighter
than the 912. I've heard that he still considers the 582 to be a better
choice for the 701 than anything heavier...
Light flies right.
-Chris B.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
---------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: vw engines for ch 701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
Ok Mark, anytime, check my comments on Gary's mail, note there is a BIG difference
between glide ratio and ground effect!
Dirk.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Eagar
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw engines for ch 701
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Eagar" <mark.eagar@prodigy.net>
Dirk, thanks for the feedback, that was very helpful. Great Planes Engines
shows a 80 hp 1900 cc engine but it must be hot rodded to get there. the
cooling problem would really be a challenge. I'll look at the Verner.
thanks again.
Mark
701
El Dorado Hills, California
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw engines for ch 701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
> <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
>
> Mark,
> Out here we have limited resources, so of course I had a look at this,
> comes out far too heavy at 210 lbs.
> Cooling is a big problem, you'll have to redesign the cowling, still then
> it does'nt work on a hot day.
> The VW is essentially a 60 hp engine for 210 lbs, in normal configuration,
> getting anything more out of it means hot rodding, and winding it up, this
> is where the cooling problems start.
>
> Do the hp/cyl capacity calculation, the Lyc 235 is 3850cc and 115 hp, if
> you apply this on a 2000cc vw you get 60 hp, if you want to stay anywhere
> near reliable.
> I'd go for the Lycoming any day, if you can live with the weight, for it
> is the same.
>
> In short, adding engine weight upsets your w/b and limits your payload,
> which cannot be rectified by adding weight rear, for you'll be over gross.
> See where the Rotax comes in? 80 hp for 146lbs installed, with the
> cooling sorted out, easy to see how Chris designed the 701 with this
> engine in mind.
> Have a look at the Verner 133m too, could be an alternative.
> Just some thoughts, hope it helps.
>
> Dirk
> 701
> Piketberg, South Africa
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Eagar
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 7:05 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: vw engines for ch 701
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Eagar" <mark.eagar@prodigy.net>
>
> Hi, wondering if anyone has experience adapting a vw engine to the 701.
> how hard was it, etc.
>
> thanks
> Mark in El Dorado Hills, CA
> tail section complete, waiting on rest of kit.
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | 601 XL Jabiru Performance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jake Reyna" <jake@lockhart-tx.com>
I was reading Allan's question "I am thinking of building a 601 XL with a
3300 Jab Motor I am requesting
from anyone with the same aircraft how it proforms eg. Speed, Climb, etc"
..... and once again the list goes off onto another tangent instead of
answering the question. What good is the list if you can't get a simple
question answered without being sold on a better idea?
Let's review the question. Allan is from Australia, maybe that's why he's
interested in the Jabiru, and he's asking for XL performance numbers using
the Jabiru 3300. There must be someone out there with a Jabiru powered XL
other than the factory.
Jeff Small has posted his numbers with the HDS and it seems that the Jabiru
powered XL would be an excellent airplane. It's 50 pounds lighter than the
Corvair and more or as powerful than most auto conversions. The Jabiru has a
well developed FWF and if I lived in Australia it would be my first choice.
The Jabiru might cost 10k more than the Corvair in the USA, but it has a
2000 hour TBO and since the average pilot logs 50 hours annually, it will be
40 years before you need an overhaul. Reality is that the engine will be
here long after the builder is gone. And, based on the cost of the Kit,
engine and FWF, 40k, that's only $1,000 a year over the next 40 years. Most
people spend 40k on a car that they keep for 5 years ..... 8k/year.
That being said, I have the Corvair Conversion Manual, assembly videos, 2
engines and have spoken with William on a couple of occasions. Odds are that
I'll have William build the engine so I can get into the air sooner. I'm
headed to the factory to pickup the XL kit on January 21.
Obtw, I'd like to see the XL Jabiru performance numbers and if I come into
some extra cash might just go with the Jabiru.
Jake
Message 4
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| Subject: | PegaStol Wing Slat Jig for Sale |
0.44 FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS Outlook can't send HTML in this format
0.26 UPPERCASE_25_50 message body is 25-50% uppercase
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <lrm@isp.com>
I have finished using my PegaStol Wing Slat Jig. You can see pictures of it at http://www.angelfire.com/un/ch701/slatbuild.html.
It is for sale. I paid $250 plus shipping. I can disassemble it for shipping
or ship as is or it can be picked up at my hanger in Cabot, Arkansas. Best REASONABLE
offer including shipping gets it. Shipping as is will cost more because
it will be oversize. E-mail me with your offer, lrm@isp.com.
Larry N1345L
My Site www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Burke,
The learning process while doing a scratch build will depend on your talents
and patience. The cost will be dependant upon how resourceful you are
in making the tooling and jigs for the parts, before you make the parts, so
you
can build the plane. The difficulty here is the more you know, the less
tolerent
of short-cuts and half-baked processes you'll be. The savings on a
scratch-build
should be half the cost of a Kit plus engine, instruments etc, but is more
like a
third the cost of a kit because you need tools and one-time jigging. The
reason
for building from scratch has to be that you like making things more than
assembling
things built by others and you're fussier. You can get a much better plane
out of
it by scratch building than a kit offers if you want to spend a lot of time.
My 601 was completed after a period of 5 years. The kit would have taken a
year and a half
and I'd've been off building another soon after, but I've "bonded" with this
plane.
Try to acquire some of the forrms & jigs from another successful builder and
go
from there. I did and even after remaking most of them, it saved a bit of
time
and material. Also, you can use .020 rather than the .016 making pieces and
skins
that will not be prone to self destruct before you're finished assembling
the parts.
Good luck,
Larry McFarland - scratch built 601HDS @ www.macsmachine.com
Subject: Zenith-List: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built)
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Burke & Susan Johnson"
> <burkeandsusan@verizon.net>
>
> I am considering the CH701 and was wondering what the real world
> difference
> is between building from the kit or scratch building. If I decide to
> scratch build, I expect that I would use some kit components like landing
> gear and firewall forward. What I am hoping to learn is the difference in
> terms of dollars and time, with time being less important. I have not
> built
> an airplane before but am pretty mechanically inclined. Thoughts are
> welcomed.
>
>
> Burke Johnson
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Proformance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Interesting as the TCDS for both show about a 50 difference.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Proformance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
>
> According to the Teledyne-Continental website there is a dry weight
difference of 35 lbs between
> the O-200 and the O-240. For a LIGHT Sport Aircraft (LSA), 35 lbs is
significant.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Pellien
> Mid-Atlantic Region
> SportsPlanes.com
> 703-851-9375
> www.sportsplanes.com
> jim@sportsplanes.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cgalley
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Proformance
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> I am surprised that you are offering the O-200 which is out of production
> when the O-240 is available. But There is a big weight penalty.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Proformance
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
> >
> > Dave,
> >
> > Why do you think the O-235 is superior to the 912S and the Jabiru?
> >
> > We are offering our Zenair 601XL S-LSA with a choice of either the
> Continental O-200 or the 912S.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Jim Pellien
> > Mid-Atlantic Region
> > SportsPlanes.Com
> > 703-313 4818
> > Website: www.Pellien.Com/maspl.htm
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dave Kubassek
> > To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Proformance
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek"
<dkubassek@golden.net>
> >
> > Having flown the XL with both Jab and 912S i wouldnt trade either one
for
> > my 0235Lyc..
> > (Not to mention 1/2 the price for a 0 timed engine)
> > just my 2 cents worth
> > dave kubassek C-FDSF XL 0235
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Sure, the Jab 3300 sounds just perfect, but the price.........
> > >
> > > Any comments?
> > >
> > > Tracy
> > > 601XL
> > > tail 85%
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | speaking of engines was vw engines for ch 701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "baileys" <baileys@ktis.net>
Speaking engines has anybody considered installation one of the 2-stroke Hirth
engines?
Thanks,
Bob B.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dirk Slabbert
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw engines for ch 701
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
Ok Mark, anytime, check my comments on Gary's mail, note there is a BIG difference
between glide ratio and ground effect!
Dirk.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Eagar
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw engines for ch 701
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Eagar" <mark.eagar@prodigy.net>
Dirk, thanks for the feedback, that was very helpful. Great Planes Engines
shows a 80 hp 1900 cc engine but it must be hot rodded to get there. the
cooling problem would really be a challenge. I'll look at the Verner.
thanks again.
Mark
701
El Dorado Hills, California
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw engines for ch 701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
> <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
>
> Mark,
> Out here we have limited resources, so of course I had a look at this,
> comes out far too heavy at 210 lbs.
> Cooling is a big problem, you'll have to redesign the cowling, still then
> it does'nt work on a hot day.
> The VW is essentially a 60 hp engine for 210 lbs, in normal configuration,
> getting anything more out of it means hot rodding, and winding it up, this
> is where the cooling problems start.
>
> Do the hp/cyl capacity calculation, the Lyc 235 is 3850cc and 115 hp, if
> you apply this on a 2000cc vw you get 60 hp, if you want to stay anywhere
> near reliable.
> I'd go for the Lycoming any day, if you can live with the weight, for it
> is the same.
>
> In short, adding engine weight upsets your w/b and limits your payload,
> which cannot be rectified by adding weight rear, for you'll be over gross.
> See where the Rotax comes in? 80 hp for 146lbs installed, with the
> cooling sorted out, easy to see how Chris designed the 701 with this
> engine in mind.
> Have a look at the Verner 133m too, could be an alternative.
> Just some thoughts, hope it helps.
>
> Dirk
> 701
> Piketberg, South Africa
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Eagar
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 7:05 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: vw engines for ch 701
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Eagar" <mark.eagar@prodigy.net>
>
> Hi, wondering if anyone has experience adapting a vw engine to the 701.
> how hard was it, etc.
>
> thanks
> Mark in El Dorado Hills, CA
> tail section complete, waiting on rest of kit.
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Corvaersionir Conversion |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Charles Mulloy <cdmbam@yahoo.com>
I'm happy to see a lot of interest out there in
Corvair engines. I have a Complete Corvair Conversion
that I am going to sell. It has new Ross forged
pistons, Total seal rings, Cylinders .020 over, Mains
and rods .010 under. OT-10 Cam, Billet gear with
safety ring. Rods re-bushed and balanced, Threaded
(drop in crank) by WW. New SS valves, seats, bronze
safety guides, springs, rockers, pushrods, spacers and
keys, lifters, oil pump, filter bypass valves. New
top cover & machined pan, Dual point distributor from
WW, Bosch coils & MSD switch, New front starter with
bracket, John Deere alternator & regulator, Safety
shaft, Hybrid studs, Puck, Ring gear, Alternator
pulley & Prop hub from WW, MA3A carburetor with
induction tubing (not fabricated) and much more.
Ignition wires and alternator bracket needed for
complete instillation (not included). These items
are readily available. I intended to use this engine
in my 601XL but the mount and cowling were not
available at the time so I used another engine. The
Corvair is an excellent engine choice if you are
building a 601 or similar aircraft. I am a retired A/P
mechanic. I built a 701 with a JAB 2200. Sold it
about 2 months ago to make room in the hangar for the
completion of my 601XL. I have overhauled many
Continental and Lycoming engines over the years. I
built this engine up with the help and advice of
Corvair Club members here in Phoenix. The member that
helped me the most has built up over 50 Corvair
engines over the last 40 years. We used the same care
and attention in building up this engine that I would
have in building up a certified aircraft engine. The
rod journals and mains were all gauged and found to be
between .0015 and .002 clearance. The oil pump side
clearance was also gauged and found to be within
limits. The engine has not been pre lubed or run.
The lifters have not been adjusted. They are small
block chevy lifters and set the same as any small
block chevy. The engine has not been painted. My
plan was to mount the engine on the plane. Set the
lifters, which are new and dry. Pre lube the engine.
Install the distributor and ignition wiring, run the
engine with a prop installed, then paint after
everything was in place. I will crate the engine and
take it to a nearby freight terminal buyer pays
freight. Price $4750.00 If anyone is interested give
me a call Chuck Mulloy 623 546 1238
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) |
Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:10:10 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
Yes sir, I believe Larry has it right. I can't speak for the very young but
attempting to scratch build, for the most of us over 50 years of age there a
good chance we would see nursing home residency before seeing the project
completed, even with a kit putting in 2 to 4 hours a week would be
questionable. However a Quick build kit if available would definitely be the
way to go. But for the purist like myself I enjoy building and completion is
only a distant goal, maybe my CH-701 scratch building is what's keeping me
out of the Nursing home, the bottom line I guess is to enjoy life the best
you can, Cheers
RJ
CH-701
plans # 4917
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Martin" <lrm@isp.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built)
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <lrm@isp.com>
>
> Burke, I can't answer you pricing question. I have built 3 kits and
> several
> frame off show cars and don't think I could build a scratch machine. I
> would think it would take a lot more than being mechanically inclined to
> build a machine from scratch. You would have to have a lot more tools
> with
> a scratch build than a kit build. That's not to mention the sheet metal
> skills. I really admire you guys who build from scratch, it's a larger
> challenge than I would want to take on. Larry, N1345L
> www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Burke & Susan Johnson" <burkeandsusan@verizon.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built)
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Burke & Susan Johnson"
> <burkeandsusan@verizon.net>
> >
> > I am considering the CH701 and was wondering what the real world
> difference
> > is between building from the kit or scratch building. If I decide to
> > scratch build, I expect that I would use some kit components like
> > landing
> > gear and firewall forward. What I am hoping to learn is the difference
> > in
> > terms of dollars and time, with time being less important. I have not
> built
> > an airplane before but am pretty mechanically inclined. Thoughts are
> > welcomed.
> >
> >
> > Burke Johnson
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Jack,
Some have reported that having a fan blowing up the front of the canopy
really helps cool things off in summer, especially if you have an exhaust
fan in the bulkhead aft of the baggage floor. Given the notorious
reputation of Zodies to be hot in summer, this seems worthwhile enough that
I'm doing it. A little computer cooler fan doesn't weigh or cost much, and
can move a fair amount of air.
Brick Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Russell" <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: defroster
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
>
> My panel wiring is comming along nicely and I have been giving thought to
> a heater defroster in the top cowl. I wonder if any of you cold weather
> 601 fliers really see a need for the defroster or will a heat dump down by
> the rudder pedals be enough?Thanks. Jack in Clovis ca
>
>
> Jack Russell -Clovis CA
> 601 XL Jabiru 3300
> Progress update at:
> http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Stratus EA-81 w/dual Bing carbs on 601 HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jerry Latimer" <jlatimer1@cox.net>
I actually had a throttle cable break on a Piper Cub while doing T&G's at a
crop duster field. Believe me I'm glad that the spring kept the throttle
open. I was able to land by using the air fuel mixture to control the
engine rpm. I also believe that vibration from the engine would have closed
the throttle had it not been for the spring.
Firm believer in having a throttle spring to open the throttle.
Jerry
601HDS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Stratus EA-81 w/dual Bing carbs on 601 HDS
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Bill,
The greatest difficulty with the spring and cable configuration is that it
opens the throttle if the cable breaks. Being able to continue a flight
home is an abstract, but flawed vision of what happens if the cable breaks.
Suppose the aircraft is on the ground, at a fly-in and the breakage occurs
there. The so-called presence of mind doesn't work as fast as "I'm supposed
to turn off the ignition". The average pilot will instinctively go for the
brakes, which are often not that great and then switch off the ignition. By
that time you can move 30-50 ft across the grass through a lot of people and
cause a lot of damage.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: vw engines for ch 701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
While Dirk is correct the VW with redrive on B.J. Schwaller's plane DOES
result in a heavier plane compared to the Rotax engine, all other things
the same. It does NOT result in a nose heavy 701. In fact the Center of
Gravity of B.J.s plane is almost EXACTLY the same as the 912 Rotax.
It isn't nose heavy. It doesn't take anymore up elevator. And it doesn't
have any bad habits. And it has EXACTLY the same glide ratio as a rotax
powered 701 that is flying at the same GROSS weight as the VW powered
plane. Its just that the rotax powered one is carrying a bigger NET load.
The reason for this is simple.
The Zenith Rotax engine mount is fairly long. B.J. took this into
consideration when he decided to use the VW with redrive. He made the
engine mount as close to the firewall as he thought possible. Its
several inches closer than the Rotax. He KNEW there was going to be a
weight penalty. He feared having to place the battery in the tail or even
adding lead weight to get the same CG as the rotax.
As it turned out. This was not the case. No additional weight was needed,
and the battery was placed just behind the passenger seat. He also decided
early on not to use the header tank, only wing tanks. It has only the most
basic bare minimum VFR panel with NO radios, to help compensate for the
additional weight of the VW. Also With a different Deil Case the VW could
actually be moved an additional 3 inches closer to the firewall if needed,
but its not.
There are a lot of reasons NOT to consider the VW with redrive, And as
Dirk pointed out the reduction in Net weight is a MAJOR one, as well as
many others. Time, effort, ease of build, cooling, possible longevity,
resale, insurance etc .
However.... CG , Being nose heavy, and glide ratios are NOT valid reasons
to rule out the VW with reduction.. B.J. has already solved those problems
with a well designed engine mount, and knowing where he wanted the CG of
his plane to end up.
I am not recommending the VW with redrive for the 701 YET. I would like to
see a lot more hours on B.J.s plane to see if the cooling issues have been
solved. Including how long the 1915 cc VW is going to last before TBO.
Monty Graves
At 10:25 AM 1/15/05 +0200, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
<dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
>
>Gary, bet you have a light Rotax up front!
> I was referring to changes is glide ratio due to 60 lbs heavier up front.
>This extra weight does'nt stay up on its own, you'll have to do something
to keep it there, like more wing area, up elevator, which causes more drag,
which requires more power, which is heavier, this means beefing up the
front end, this is heavier again, then the w/b, then no payload, soon
you'll be thinking of enlarging the tail .....
>
>The last thing you need is an aircraft full of bad habits en nasty
surprises, I'm a firm believer in Murphy's law : if its there it WILL happen!
>
>One thing leads to another in aviation, all are compromises of one
another, my advise would be to stick to the design specs, strictly, then
you end up with a friendly forgiving plane , a joy to fly with nice control
harmony, the one Chris Heintz intended.
>
>Like the one you have!!
>
>Dirk 701
>Bushpilot in Africa.
>( Mark I hope you saw this too! )
> ----- Original Message -----
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
Its hard to tell, but best guess. Plans built takes twice as long, 5
years or longer vs 2 yrs for kit. and saves 60-70 % maybe a little more of
the kit price. Just the alum parts of the kit. Not the engine or
instruments costs.
I now tell people it takes 3 sheets of 4 X 12 .025 thick 6061T-6 alum sheet
in the 701. They did cost $80 per sheet at a local metal supplier a
couple of years ago before the recent surge in metal prices.
But only one sheet of .025, and a 1/2 sheet of 3/4 plywood for form blocks
(about $100 total, and the cost of the $400 plans refundable if you later
buy the kit) will tell you right away if scratch building is right for you.
Start with the large rear main ribs. Those form blocks are the easiest
to make. Also These ribs are also the easiest to make.
Monty Graves
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Burke & Susan Johnson" <burkeandsusan@verizon.net>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built)
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Burke & Susan Johnson"
><burkeandsusan@verizon.net>
>>
>> I am considering the CH701 and was wondering what the real world
>difference
>> is between building from the kit or scratch building. If I decide to
>> scratch build, I expect that I would use some kit components like landing
>> gear and firewall forward. What I am hoping to learn is the difference in
>> terms of dollars and time, with time being less important. I have not
>built
>> an airplane before but am pretty mechanically inclined. Thoughts are
>> welcomed.
>>
>>
>> Burke Johnson
>>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski <rvickski@yahoo.com>
real world difference?
buy the kit and be done with it, except if you screw
somethig up it'll cost. fly in a year at 20hrs or less
weekly effort.
buy the plans and look forward to a steep learning
curve, alot of running around to get stuff cut and
bent if you dont invest in shear and brake. then
figure your time worth $5 and hour. fly in 2 years at
20hrs or more weekly effort.
your milage may vary.
recommend the article in kitplanes.com "10 reasons"
Roy Szarafinski, aka gadget guy
701sp plans
fuse on gear
tail feathers complete
wing parts fabbed
ect
2.5 years and going strong after summer sabatical
not afraid to buy tools/equipment or make mistakes
no regrets
do not archive
__________________________________
Message 15
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| Subject: | Zodiac XL DFW area |
1.65 NO_DNS_FOR_FROM Domain in From header has no MX or A DNS records
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Floyd Gantt" <fgantt@texaviation.com>
Loking for someone in the Dallas Fort Worth, TX who is building a Zodiac XL to
talk to about the Kit and experences. I haven't decided but am favoring the XL.
I would like to see a finished plane but not able to get to Mexico,Missouri.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Proformance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
It's about 30 degress F and rain is approaching.
There are reports of severe icing from the surface to 2000 feet.
So I'm staying on the ground and reporting what I've seen with
the Jabiru 3300 in my 601XL with a Sensenich fixed pitch prop
(model W64ZK-49, 64" long, 49" pitch). 717 pounds empty.
At gross weight, on a summer day, at sea level, it does climb out
at close to 1000 fpm at 80 mph.
I typically see 125 mph indicated in cruise at 5.0 gallons/hour.
Full throttle level flight stabilizes at about 140 mph.
An ASI - GPS comparison:
5000', 2800 rpm, OAT 60F, 125 mph indicated, 137 TAS, 145 mph per GPS.
based on 2 runs north then south. Indicates the ASI is about 6% low.
some flight testing data (altitude at 1 minute intervals):
(it's from my first assign~ment as a test pilot, WYSIWYG)
(I learned enough to feel confident about 633Z's performance.)
- weight 950 to 1100 lbs (I did similar runs at 1340 pounds).
OAT 32 degrees F, 100 mph climb, 2800rpm
3500', 4600', 5500', 6300', 7100', 7700'
8400', 8900', 9500', 10100', 10500', 11000'
and from another series - OAT 20F, 13000' 100mph, 2800rpm
~300fpm up (the constant vacuum carbs work great!)
OAT 56 degrees F, 90 mph climb, 2800 rpm
2000', 3200', 4200', 5000', 5800', 6600'
OAT 85F start, 40F top, 80 mph climb, 2800 rpm
2600', 3500', 4500', 5400', 6200', 7000', 7700',
8400', 9000', 9600'
OAT 54F start, 33F top, 70mph climb, 2800 rpm
3800', 4800', 5700', 6600', 7500', 8250'
9000', 9700', 10400'
OAT 37F start, 54F bottom, 65 mph descent, 10 degrees flap, 1800 rpm
9500', 8750, 8000', 7500', 6500', 5800', 5100', 4400', 3700'
OAT 47F start, 56F bottom, 65 mph descent, 0 degrees flap, 1000 rpm
8950', 8300, 7600', 6900', 6300', 5650', 5000', 4300', 3700'
OAT 48F start, 61F bottom, 80mph descent, no flaps, 1200 rpm
8000', 7200', 6300' 5500', 4600', 3800'
Joe E
N633Z @ BFI
152 hours
first annual last month
http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005, ABGS wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ABGS" <abgs@impulse.net.au>
> Hi
> I am thinking of building a 601 XL with a 3300 Jab Motor I am requesting
> from anyone with the same aircraft how it proforms eg. Speed, Climb, etc
> Thank you > Fly Safe
> > Allan
> Cummins Spinners
> Australia
> do not archive
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: CH701 Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Hi Burke:
Nobody can tell you which is better for you. My advice is to attend the rudder
workshop. It's worth every penny of the $300 plus travel and hotel. You will
come home with a rudder and you can spend as much time as you want watching
the ZAC guys build parts. The 701 uses the same construction techniques as the
601.
I attended the workshop two years ago and came home with my new rudder. I bought
the plans, then ordered some aluminum and started banging away. I think I
may be keeping up with some kit-builders, but that's not my goal.
Today I installed the tail on the fuselage. I found myself grinning ear to ear
when I backed away and saw it. I'll post photos a little later today.
Happy Building,
Scott Laughlin
N5SL (reserved)
601XL / Corvair
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
Burke & Susan Johnson <burkeandsusan@verizon.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Burke & Susan Johnson"
I am considering the CH701 and was wondering what the real world difference
is between building from the kit or scratch building.
---------------------------------
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Kit vs Plans (Scratch Built) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Well, then, let my add my two cents.
I've been building from plans (CH601-HD) since '99. I started at about the same
time Michel
Therien did (he's flying, I obviously am not). It's true that about 50% of the
time I'm away from
home, so I can't build, plus I paused for one year (moving, working on PPL, etc.).
So, out of the five years, I actually worked 2.
I have completed the tail feathers and have the wing skeleton almost ready for
riveting (I had to
trash the centre wing spar after an unsuccessful riveting experience this summer
- but I won't be
defeated by them frigging rivets!).
I find I can save a munch of money, even if I make multiple copies of parts (some
say scratch
builders make parts for two aircrafts; one flies, the other goes to the dump).
You trade time for money.
Scott (who is progressing at an enviable speed!) is offering a good recommendation.
In addition, I
suggest you build a rudder from scratch. If you succeed, then try to make a couple
of wing ribs.
By then (with a modest investment) you should be able to figure if scratch building
is for you.
Best of luck with your project
Carlos
CH601-HD
Montreal, Canada
--- N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Burke:
>
> Nobody can tell you which is better for you. My advice is to attend the rudder
workshop. It's
> worth every penny of the $300 plus travel and hotel. You will come home with
a rudder and you
> can spend as much time as you want watching the ZAC guys build parts. The 701
uses the same
> construction techniques as the 601.
>
> I attended the workshop two years ago and came home with my new rudder. I bought
the plans,
> then ordered some aluminum and started banging away. I think I may be keeping
up with some
> kit-builders, but that's not my goal.
>
> Today I installed the tail on the fuselage. I found myself grinning ear to ear
when I backed
> away and saw it. I'll post photos a little later today.
>
> Happy Building,
>
> Scott Laughlin
> N5SL (reserved)
> 601XL / Corvair
> http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
Message 19
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Wayne Whitaker <fwwhitaker@worldnet.att.net>, winshipalbert@earthlink.net
| Subject: | first flight N601TD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Zodiac guys--
Got my first flight in my newly licensed 601HDS/Jab 3300 this morning.
I "cheated" and had a really good test pilot take the first flight
earlier in the week so I had pretty good assurance I wouldn't go down in
a ball of flames on my first flight.
I'm sort of disorganized as I am still pumped up but will share a few
impressions.
1. Taildragger configuration is a pussycat in ground handling on takeoff
and landing. Absolutely no problems at all. Wheel lands or three
point. Plenty of rudder authority. Never used much at all.
2. This plane just wants to fly! 80 mph climb out WOT (2800 indicated)
was about 1500 fpm indicated. It climbs better than that at slower
speed, but I didn't want to overheat new motor.
3. I experienced the familiar heavy left wing and Mac trim ended up
almost full deflection to hold level flight.
4. Jab motor is quiet. Both in the air and on the ground . With ANR
headset I heard mild oil canning louder than the motor.
5. Either my tach is reading low, or the motor will take a lot more
breaking in. WOT in air is 2800 and Static is 2700. Oil temps
try to exceed 230 F if I exceed 2100 rpm for long. Below 2000 temp
dropped to 200 degrees and stayed there. I am using the standard
Jabiru "club" 60" wood prop.
6. Cht temps are beginning to drop as I think motor is breaking in a
bit. I have total of 2.8 hours on it and hottest cyl is
number 4 at 320 on climb out or WOT level flight. It drops to
280 or so below at 2200 rpm. All others cyls are lower.
7. This plane is FAST! Two calibrated ASI indicated 145 in level flight
for brief WOT run.
8. The plane has a great speed envelope. It flies just fine at 85 or
90 mph and is still has crisp handling and solid stick
feel.
9. It is anything but a lead sled on landing. At 80 mph final it
landed long and never mushed when slowed down.
10. The tailwheel configuration lands just fine for wheel or three point
landing.
11. Elevator trim (recessed) needed to be set to almost full up trim
for level flight. Think I may need to change stabilizer
incidence angle to keep trim in mid range
12. What a great plane. My test pilot compared it to a Bebe Jodel, his
favorite plane except he says the Zodiac has an
"attitude" He has flown at least 100 makes of planes including
many 200 mph + models and had a smile on his face
when he got out from his flight.
13 The plane is very stable. Winds were gusting to 15 on the ground and
30 or more at altitude. The 601 takes a lick and
comes right back to heading. It will be no problem at all for
cross country flights. Same good recovery on short final.
14. Re engine choices-- I love the Jabiru (so far) and expect improved
performance as it begins to loosen up.
15. Keep whatever airframe/motor combination you choose as light as
possible. Mine is 605# empty and I think it is
a big factor in the performance.
Thanks so much to this group for the ideas and encouragement during my 5
years of work on this plane. With the group's combined experience there
is almost no new problem that can arise if one asks for help. I will
post more definitive stats during upcoming flights. Wind was gusting
15 mhp today and no reliable information could be recorded.
If anyone has a high speed connection I will soon get a digital video of
the takeoff, but it would take forever on a dial up line. Write me
directly if you want me to email it to you.
Humble and Happy Ron DeWees
N601TD (2.8 hours)
Message 20
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| Subject: | 601 XL Proformance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Joe,
What a great report. We need more well thought out approaches to flight
testing like yours was. Great job of finding out what your airplane will
do.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of xl
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Proformance
--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
It's about 30 degress F and rain is approaching.
There are reports of severe icing from the surface to 2000 feet.
So I'm staying on the ground and reporting what I've seen with
the Jabiru 3300 in my 601XL with a Sensenich fixed pitch prop
(model W64ZK-49, 64" long, 49" pitch). 717 pounds empty.
At gross weight, on a summer day, at sea level, it does climb out
at close to 1000 fpm at 80 mph.
I typically see 125 mph indicated in cruise at 5.0 gallons/hour.
Full throttle level flight stabilizes at about 140 mph.
An ASI - GPS comparison:
5000', 2800 rpm, OAT 60F, 125 mph indicated, 137 TAS, 145 mph per GPS.
based on 2 runs north then south. Indicates the ASI is about 6% low.
some flight testing data (altitude at 1 minute intervals):
(it's from my first assign~ment as a test pilot, WYSIWYG)
(I learned enough to feel confident about 633Z's performance.)
- weight 950 to 1100 lbs (I did similar runs at 1340 pounds).
OAT 32 degrees F, 100 mph climb, 2800rpm
3500', 4600', 5500', 6300', 7100', 7700'
8400', 8900', 9500', 10100', 10500', 11000'
and from another series - OAT 20F, 13000' 100mph, 2800rpm
~300fpm up (the constant vacuum carbs work great!)
OAT 56 degrees F, 90 mph climb, 2800 rpm
2000', 3200', 4200', 5000', 5800', 6600'
OAT 85F start, 40F top, 80 mph climb, 2800 rpm
2600', 3500', 4500', 5400', 6200', 7000', 7700',
8400', 9000', 9600'
OAT 54F start, 33F top, 70mph climb, 2800 rpm
3800', 4800', 5700', 6600', 7500', 8250'
9000', 9700', 10400'
OAT 37F start, 54F bottom, 65 mph descent, 10 degrees flap, 1800 rpm
9500', 8750, 8000', 7500', 6500', 5800', 5100', 4400', 3700'
OAT 47F start, 56F bottom, 65 mph descent, 0 degrees flap, 1000 rpm
8950', 8300, 7600', 6900', 6300', 5650', 5000', 4300', 3700'
OAT 48F start, 61F bottom, 80mph descent, no flaps, 1200 rpm
8000', 7200', 6300' 5500', 4600', 3800'
Joe E
N633Z @ BFI
152 hours
first annual last month
http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005, ABGS wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ABGS" <abgs@impulse.net.au>
> Hi
> I am thinking of building a 601 XL with a 3300 Jab Motor I am requesting
> from anyone with the same aircraft how it proforms eg. Speed, Climb, etc
> Thank you > Fly Safe
> > Allan
> Cummins Spinners
> Australia
> do not archive
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: first flight N601TD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
Thanks Ron...
That's a great report. It really gets me fired up to finish my plane soon.
I hope to fly this summer. Of course, I said that last year, too.
Dave Harms
601XL/Corvair engine
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