---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/20/05: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:33 AM - Re: Canopy (Dr. Perry Morrison) 2. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: Canopy (Dave Kubassek) 3. 05:13 AM - 701 Gun Rack (Glendale Farm) 4. 08:01 AM - Washington trip (Zed Smith) 5. 08:22 AM - Re: One thing I won't change on my 601.... the control stick (Jack Russell) 6. 08:28 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: Canopy fasteners (John M. Goodings) 7. 08:51 AM - Re: Another canopy question (Gary Gower) 8. 09:22 AM - Re: One thing I won't change on my 601.... the control stick (Gary Gower) 9. 10:37 AM - Re: Another canopy question (Bryan Martin) 10. 10:50 AM - Re: 701 Gun Rack (Todd Osborne) 11. 11:06 AM - Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder (Jeffrey J Paris) 12. 11:53 AM - Re: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder (Larry McFarland) 13. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Flight Video! (N5SL) 14. 01:37 PM - Re: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder (Gary Gower) 15. 02:04 PM - Trim Tab (Gary A. Boothe) 16. 02:42 PM - Re: Trim Tab (Gary Gower) 17. 03:48 PM - Re: Trim Tab (ron dewees) 18. 05:42 PM - Re: Trim Tab (Dave Kubassek) 19. 06:18 PM - Re: Trim Tab (Gary A. Boothe) 20. 07:41 PM - Re: 701 Gun Rack (Dave Austin) 21. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 01/15/05 (ron dewees) 22. 07:50 PM - Re: Trim Tab (Jack Russell) 23. 08:22 PM - Re: Trim Tab (Cdngoose) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:18 AM PST US From: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Terror accompanies the first drill hole. My tips: practice on some scrap if possible. Use a blunt drill and a drill where you can conrol the rpm. I used an air drill with plenty of bleed. Drill slow. Also, a dremel tool does wonders in cutting large bits of canopy off. I cut the entire rear of the canopy several times (probably a metre in total) to get it to fit snug. But my canopy was sourced differently to most Zs I believe and needed a lot of jiggery pokery to fit. I suspect this is the story with most. Perry Morrison ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:08 AM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" What I thought seemed to be the secret to working with the canopy was KEEPING IT WARM........................... Making sure the area working in as well as the canopy is nice and warm........Like at leat 75 deg F I drilled all my holes with a sharp bit and with the cordless drill on high speed,penetrating the canopy cautiously, and the drilling and trimming was a piece of cake. With the material being nice and warm it drilled like butter, not even a hint of the bit grabbing . Good luck......... dave kubassek , XL , C-FDSF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" > > > > Terror accompanies the first drill hole. My tips: practice on some scrap > if possible. Use a blunt drill and a drill where you can conrol the rpm. I > used an air drill with plenty of bleed. Drill slow. > > Also, a dremel tool does wonders in cutting large bits of canopy off. I > cut the entire rear of the canopy several times (probably a metre in > total) to get it to fit snug. But my canopy was sourced differently to > most Zs I believe and needed a lot of jiggery pokery to fit. I suspect > this is the story with most. > > Perry Morrison > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:55 AM PST US From: "Glendale Farm" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Gun Rack --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Glendale Farm" Is anyone familiar with or has developed an exterior shotgun/rifle rack for the 701. I use mine to go to remote areas for hunting. Thanks. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:39 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Washington trip --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith do not archive My apologies to all, but I'm just not going to be able to make it to the Inauguration. Rest of you guys have fun. Give my regards to Dubya Anybody wants to go, e-mail the money, I'll e-mail tickets. Seventy-one degrees F in north Texas today, no wind, no clouds. Sorry, Jon!! Zed/701/R912/90+% do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:07 AM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One thing I won't change on my 601.... the control stick --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Gary: Now that I can sit in the drivers seat I have found that I can comfortably reach any part of my panel with my left hand up to the center ( and a little beyond). I guess my girlfriend will just have to sit on my lap. Jack in Clovis CA do not archive > Just trim the plane... is like with your car (or easyer) How do you change stations in your > car radio? or Answer the cel phone? Or get romantic with your girl friend? while > driving... ... Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:24 AM PST US From: "John M. Goodings" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Canopy fasteners --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M. Goodings" I used stainless steel oval-head screws and cup washers to fasten the plexiglass canopy to the tube frame in the usual way, but with a couple of extra aspects perhaps worth passing on. I drilled the holes through the plexiglass oversize and put little bits of polyethylene tubing around each screw; there is still a "layer of air" between the polyethylene and the plexiglass (to allow for a bit of expansion). I did take some care to smooth the edges of all holes through the plexiglass with very fine sandpaper. Most important: I put ordinary O-rings (3/32", but they might have been 1/16") under the cup washers to cushion them from the plexiglass. There have not been any cracks yet: 58 hours and 2 winters! John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with 912S, Toronto/Waterloo. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:50 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another canopy question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower A little air circulation inside the canopy is on the safe side... In case of a little crack in the muffler before its detected. Well not to much air from the outside... mostly in cold whether places. I am glad to hear your comment that the air that came in was not from the firewall area. Some day soon (?) I will be installing the canopy. Saludos Gary Gower 701 912S flying 12 hrs and adding 601 XL on the building table... Bryan Martin wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin You can't avoid tha gap between the canopy frame and the longerons but, like Jack said, you can make the aluminum sheet on the outside of the frame hang down to hide the gap. You will find that air will flow out of this gap, not in. I noticed that the sleeve of my shirt would get sucked out the gap until I installed some soft foam weather strip on the bottom of the canopy frame. I still have some air leaking out near the latches, it's hard to seal that area. Of course, any air leaking out will draw air in elsewhere. I also installed some foam weatherstrip between my seat backs and the frame because cold air was leaking in around that area. Now the only place that air can get in is through the cable tunnel down near the floor, but my heater will take the chill off that air pretty quick. on 1/19/05 9:00 PM, Mark Stauffer at mark.stauffer@cablespeed.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" > > > Fellow XL builders. > > Most photos I've seen of the XL canopy show a gap between the upper > longerons and the canopy. I'd like to avoid these gaps if at all possible. > How many have been successful at avoiding these gaps. Even though I'm a > couple of months from installing the canopy any tips would be greatly > appreciated. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:37 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One thing I won't change on my 601.... the control stick --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower There you go! A future Mile High Club Member! :-) :-) Saludos Gary Gower Do not archive for shure! Jack Russell wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Gary: Now that I can sit in the drivers seat I have found that I can comfortably reach any part of my panel with my left hand up to the center ( and a little beyond). I guess my girlfriend will just have to sit on my lap. Jack in Clovis CA do not archive > Just trim the plane... is like with your car (or easyer) How do you change stations in your > car radio? or Answer the cel phone? Or get romantic with your girl friend? while > driving... ... Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another canopy question From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin I've got the firewall sealed up pretty tight, all of the penetrations are sealed with heat resistant materials. I agree that some air circulation is good as long as it doesn't flow in directly over my body parts in the winter. It gets pretty darn cold up here in Michigan in January. I intend to leave the openings in the front of the cable tunnel open, I've got hot water heat unit mounted under the panel blowing on my feet to knock down the chill of that air. One of the advantages of a water cooled engine is I don't have to draw air over the exhaust system to get heat, I just recirculate cabin air over the heater core. The cabin is comfortable even with outside temperatures well below freezing. on 1/20/05 11:50 AM, Gary Gower at ggower_99@yahoo.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > A little air circulation inside the canopy is on the safe side... In case of > a little crack in the muffler before its detected. Well not to much air from > the outside... mostly in cold whether places. > I am glad to hear your comment that the air that came in was not from the > firewall area. Some day soon (?) I will be installing the canopy. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:13 AM PST US From: Todd Osborne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Gun Rack --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne Meat is murder! :) hehehe. I do remember a posting about this a while back. Search the archives for PVC and rifle. If I recall, there was a lot of good information there that dealt with issues about doing this that I certainly never thought of. From what I remember, the end result was good. Todd Osborne Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com Web Site: www.toddtown.com MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder From: "Jeffrey J Paris" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris" Listers, I'm 93.879000....% there in terms of finishing my 601XL. It's been a fantastic experience and I can't wait to fly it! Just a quick question with this in mind...I have followed the directions to a tee in terms of what Chris Heinz and Zenith have done with offering this kit, (I'm not an engineer, but a pretty good Industrial designer) However, I just feel like the rudder/steering mechanism is stiff and not developed to what it could be. My question is as follows...Has anyone added high quality extension springs to the rudder pedals with a fair amount of load deflection and tension to provide a tiny bit of play/flex in the gear while steering the aircraft on the ground? I just got thinking about it while taxing in some of my flying clubs Cessnas and Pipers that that little bit of play and lack of stiffness seems to make things a bit more forgiving and not as rigid sort of speak. I guess the thing that has bothered me is that I have never had a definite answer in terms of cable tensioning the 601. Also, I have never really enjoyed the sound of cables slapping or a plane that just doesn't seem balanced and crisp in terms of flight control. If you have rented you know you have flown some "clunkers". I'm just throwing this out for discussion and was wondering if any of you builder "gurus" had an opinion? Sincerely, Jeff "Heff" Paris CH601XL Jab 3300 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:05 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Jeff, The linkage on the nose gear has a bit to do with the stiffness you describe. The centering relief on the nose gear arm stops add a lot to that. I went to a flat nylon and found the steering very easy and not resisting as long as there's any rolling action. The cables are probably best left with enough to tension out the slack. Your feet'll just add more to rudder hinge wear as well. Can't speak to the flight characteristics because I fly a HDS and it seems very balanced and crisp in flight, and responsive to the point that you think right you go right. I tensioned the cables to about 20-25 lbs and put enough guides in to avoid cable slap. The Cessna and Pipers I've flown tend to be stodgy and a little slow to respond on the ground or the air. Larry McFarland - scratch built 601hds at www.macsmachine.com Subject: Zenith-List: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder > I just got thinking about it while taxing in some of my flying clubs > Cessnas and Pipers that that little bit of play and lack of stiffness > seems to make things a bit more forgiving and not as rigid sort of speak. > I guess the thing that has bothered me is that I have never had a definite > answer in terms of cable tensioning the 601. Also, I have never really > enjoyed the sound of cables slapping or a plane that just doesn't seem > balanced and crisp in terms of flight control. If you have rented you > know you have flown some "clunkers". > Jeff "Heff" Paris > CH601XL > Jab 3300 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:06 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Flight Video! --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Hi Guys: Sorry for the delay - I was out of town for a few days. Here's a link to Ron's photos and Video. http://www.cooknwithgas.com/RonDeWees/Ron.html Enjoy! Scott Laughlin http://www.cooknwithgas.com Hopefully I'll be on wheels and Tires this weekend. ron dewees wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hi listers, I was overwhelmed by the interest and good wishes I received after posting a report of my first flight. I think I got 14 requests for the video. Scott Laughlin (http://www.cooknwithgas.com/) has kindly offered to post the next video on his website. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:30 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower There are only two parts of the complete airplane that were are going to change from the plans (out of some cosmetics we did): One is the "V" in the front wheel steering rods... we are going to flatten them complete and add a nylon runner cut in an inverted "V" for them to run. The plane is a delight to fly, the use of rudder to center the ball is minimal (in our plane) so we just keep the rudder centered with the feet and slightly touch the peddal that needs correction to center the ball. Great plane to fly in my 12 hours in it I just love to fly it... The second thing to modify is the size of the trim plate in the elevator we will make it 3 to 5 cm. wider, takes to much movement now to trim... Everything else is by the plans, just perfect to fly, we love it. The problem here is to find the time to make the mods... there are so few week ends that are not flyable, we beguin working the details off at sunset, if there is not good hangar talk in the club :-), Saludos Gary Gower Jeffrey J Paris wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris" Listers, I'm 93.879000....% there in terms of finishing my 601XL. It's been a fantastic experience and I can't wait to fly it! Just a quick question with this in mind...I have followed the directions to a tee in terms of what Chris Heinz and Zenith have done with offering this kit, (I'm not an engineer, but a pretty good Industrial designer) However, I just feel like the rudder/steering mechanism is stiff and not developed to what it could be. My question is as follows...Has anyone added high quality extension springs to the rudder pedals with a fair amount of load deflection and tension to provide a tiny bit of play/flex in the gear while steering the aircraft on the ground? I just got thinking about it while taxing in some of my flying clubs Cessnas and Pipers that that little bit of play and lack of stiffness seems to make things a bit more forgiving and not as rigid sort of speak. I guess the thing that has bothered me is that I have never had a definite answer in terms of cable tensioning the 601. Also, I have never really enjoyed the sound of cables slapping or a plane that just doesn't seem balanced and crisp in terms of flight control. If you have rented you know you have flown some "clunkers". I'm just throwing this out for discussion and was wondering if any of you builder "gurus" had an opinion? Sincerely, Jeff "Heff" Paris CH601XL Jab 3300 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:10 PM PST US From: "Gary A. Boothe" Subject: Zenith-List: Trim Tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" List, Gary Gower wrote: In two weeks I will be starting my elevator with recessed trim. Has anyone also noticed a need to increase the trim size? Thanks, Gary Boothe WW Corvair Power - 601HDS Rudder complete. Hori.Stab. 50% ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:45 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trim Tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower One point I missed: Our flying plane is a 701... Sorry forgot to mention it in my last post. Maybe in the 601's is a diferent situation... Will be glad to hear comments from XL flyiers, We are also beguining the empenage of our 601 XL kit. Saludos Gary Gower 701 912S "Gary A. Boothe" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" List, Gary Gower wrote: In two weeks I will be starting my elevator with recessed trim. Has anyone also noticed a need to increase the trim size? Thanks, Gary Boothe WW Corvair Power - 601HDS Rudder complete. Hori.Stab. 50% --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:14 PM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trim Tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Gary A. Boothe wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" > >List, > >Gary Gower wrote: > >In two weeks I will be starting my elevator with recessed trim. Has anyone also noticed a need to increase the trim size? > >Thanks, >Gary Boothe > >WW Corvair Power - 601HDS >Rudder complete. Hori.Stab. 50% > > Hi Gary, I built my recessed trim tabs as the plans from Zac described. Both the elevator and aileron trim need to be at extreme settings so I would suggest you check with others and possibly increase the area. I thought the aileron trim was marginal because of my hingeless aileron that takes more trim authority to lift or lower a wing, but the elevator has a conventional hinge so there is no excess friction. I also notice that lower speeds necessitate greater trim settings so it's good to have plenty. Ron N601TD ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:51 PM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trim Tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" If i had to do over i would increase the size of the trim tab by going out 1 rib wider........ It needs it...... Actually i believe the new drawings/kits have a larger trim tab. dave kubassek 601 XL C-FDSF Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trim Tab > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > One point I missed: Our flying plane is a 701... Sorry forgot to > mention it in my last post. Maybe in the 601's is a diferent > situation... > Will be glad to hear comments from XL flyiers, We are also beguining the > empenage of our 601 XL kit. > > Saludos > Gary Gower > 701 912S > > > "Gary A. Boothe" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" > > List, > > Gary Gower wrote: > > In two weeks I will be starting my elevator with recessed trim. Has anyone > also noticed a need to increase the trim size? > > Thanks, > Gary Boothe > > WW Corvair Power - 601HDS > Rudder complete. Hori.Stab. 50% > > > --------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:14 PM PST US From: "Gary A. Boothe" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trim Tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" Dave, Thanks. I should have been clearer. My trim tab measures 415mm. Do you think it could be larger? Gary Boothe WW Corvair Power - 601HDS Rudder complete. Hori.Stab. 50% ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trim Tab > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" > > If i had to do over i would increase the size of the trim tab by going out > 1 > rib wider........ > It needs it...... > Actually i believe the new drawings/kits have a larger trim tab. > > dave kubassek 601 XL C-FDSF > > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trim Tab > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower >> >> One point I missed: Our flying plane is a 701... Sorry forgot to >> mention it in my last post. Maybe in the 601's is a diferent >> situation... >> Will be glad to hear comments from XL flyiers, We are also beguining the >> empenage of our 601 XL kit. >> >> Saludos >> Gary Gower >> 701 912S >> >> >> "Gary A. Boothe" wrote: >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" >> >> List, >> >> Gary Gower wrote: >> >> In two weeks I will be starting my elevator with recessed trim. Has >> anyone >> also noticed a need to increase the trim size? >> >> Thanks, >> Gary Boothe >> >> WW Corvair Power - 601HDS >> Rudder complete. Hori.Stab. 50% >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:56 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Gun Rack --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Anybody have a design for a carcass mount? Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 Do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:05 PM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 01/15/05 --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Fred or Sandy Hulen wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" > > > > >> >> > >+++ Wow, I've been waiting to read those words.... > HEY,.......HEARTY CONGRATULATIONS RON!!!!! > >You've got my e-address, I'd love to see the take-off video. > >Fred Hulen 180 hours in 3300 powered Zodie Rocket HDS > > > Hi Fred, Scott Laughlin posted my takeoff video on his great website: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/RonDeWees/Ron.html It's not great quality but brings back a lot of adrenalin to me. What do you hear from Jeff? I got an email from him at John's Hopkins last week and he was going to undergo treatment yesterday. Sure hope he came thru ok. He sure beat the odds a few years ago. I'll be pulling for him. He sounds like he has a great attitude. Ron N601TD ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:51 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trim Tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell I am wondering why you couldn't just rivet a piece of .032 on the bottom of the existing tab. It would not be flush with the trailing edge anymore but it might give the tab more authority. You might even bend a "v" and rivet top and bottom. What do you think? Jack in Clovis Ca Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:23 PM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Trim Tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Jack IT would probably work fine but not be very esthetically pleasing. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trim Tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell I am wondering why you couldn't just rivet a piece of .032 on the bottom of the existing tab. It would not be flush with the trailing edge anymore but it might give the tab more authority. You might even bend a "v" and rivet top and bottom. What do you think? Jack in Clovis Ca Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html