---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/23/05: 44 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:47 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Thilo Kind) 2. 05:37 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Cdngoose) 3. 06:39 AM - Paint Ball Gunnery (Bob Miller) 4. 06:39 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (cgalley) 5. 07:10 AM - Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Kevin Kinney) 6. 07:10 AM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (Cdngoose) 7. 07:19 AM - Re: Tax Write-Off (Dave & Darlene) 8. 07:26 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (ron dewees) 9. 07:35 AM - (owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com) 10. 07:54 AM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (Jeffrey Glasserow) 11. 08:03 AM - Re: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (cgalley) 12. 08:14 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Jack Russell) 13. 08:52 AM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (Carlos Sa) 14. 10:17 AM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (Trevor Page) 15. 11:29 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Rico Voss) 16. 11:30 AM - Two questions (Joe Kerr) 17. 11:40 AM - Paint Ball Gunnery (Bob Miller) 18. 12:09 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Joemotis@aol.com) 19. 12:09 PM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (Mark Grieve) 20. 12:10 PM - Re: Two questions (Carlos Sa) 21. 12:29 PM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (Cdngoose) 22. 12:43 PM - Re: Two questions (Jack Russell) 23. 01:09 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (cgalley) 24. 01:15 PM - Re: Two questions (Larry McFarland) 25. 01:21 PM - flour and camera port (Bob Miller) 26. 01:23 PM - Re: CH601XL Flight Training (Jim Pellien) 27. 01:26 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (cgalley) 28. 01:34 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (george may) 29. 01:52 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Jack Russell) 30. 01:57 PM - Re: Two questions (Dave Austin) 31. 02:03 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 32. 02:17 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Cdngoose) 33. 03:14 PM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (Leo J. Corbalis) 34. 03:49 PM - Re: Two questions (Gary A. Boothe) 35. 03:55 PM - paint cans clogging (Ron Lee) 36. 05:22 PM - Re: quite a website, Andre ! (CH701) (kevinbonds) 37. 06:25 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Mark Eagar) 38. 06:29 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Bryan Martin) 39. 06:48 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Jack Russell) 40. 06:51 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Larry Martin) 41. 06:56 PM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (Bryan Martin) 42. 08:09 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (cgalley) 43. 08:45 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Steve Shuck) 44. 10:02 PM - Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (norman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:19 AM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Jack, my advice: don't do that. Frank Hinde has on numerous occasions explained, why there should be two fuel pumps very near the wing tanks. Trust me, Frank is right on the money. You run a high risk of vapor lock or sucking air into the fuel lines. It might not happen during the test flights, but sooner or later it will happen. Keep it safe Thilo Kind ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while back. Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't until I fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of that. Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn the low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air is easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked with my tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have done the fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have it set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I will have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when I start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the tanks full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' above the airport duri > ng the > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" placard on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, keep in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine failure. Jack in Clovis Ca > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > Progress update at: > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:13 AM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Just a quick note to add to this, if you have a low wing plane in Canada and wanted to have an inspection to get your flight authority you would not pass with a valve that has a "both" position on it. So if it is enough of a reason for a whole country to find unacceptable then I would seriously consider not installing one. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while back. Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't until I fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of that. Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn the low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air is easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked with my tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have done the fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have it set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I will have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when I start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the tanks full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' above the airport duri ng the test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" placard on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, keep in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine failure. Jack in Clovis Ca Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:55 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" I'm picturing strafing competitions at future fly-ins. Jeff Small won't be able to resist this one for his yearly Pennsylvania sheebang. Has anyone put thought into how a paintball rig might actually be installed in a 601 wing? Maybe baggage locker? Has anyone tried shooting paintballs out the window of a 701 or other a/c? Would the relative wind be just too much for those low powered and huge missles to actually be feasible? Bob ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:55 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" There is a reason that you list for NOT having a both with a single pump. You will suck air from an empty tank. Because of unbalanced flow one tank will always empty first creating the air sucking problem IF you have both on line. If your solution is fool proof, don't you think low wing certified plane would have been using it? The first thing I did with my Bellanca was to run out of fuel because I had been flying a Cessna. After I switched tanks, the noise resumed but I learned to check for fullest tank before I enter the traffic pattern so the engine didn't get quiet due to unporting in a turn. For What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank operations! Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while back. Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't until I fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of that. Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn the low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air is easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked with my tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have done the fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have it set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I will have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when I start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the tanks full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' above the airport duri > ng the > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" placard on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, keep in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine failure. Jack in Clovis Ca > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > Progress update at: > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:33 AM PST US From: Kevin Kinney Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Kevin Kinney I've thought about the L/R/B switch problem. I understand the reasons for not running Both while in the air. I'm not flying yet, but I plan on using the "Left/Right" method. But I alos plan on getting a Off/Left/Right/Both fuel valve. But I plan on using Both only when tying down and will replacard "Both" to "Ground." Why? Because I plan on putting the gascolator on the engine side of the valve. If you leave the valve on Left, the gascolator will only collect water from the left tank. In preflight, you'll have to switch the valve to Right and drain the line again. On top of this, I don't know how long to wait after switching the valve. How long does it take water to flow to the lowest point when mixed with gas? The alternative to waiting is to drain the gascolator several times to make sure you've got fuel from the right tank in the drain cup. How does the list feel about this approach? Regards, kk ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:33 AM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> For the Lawyers in the Bunch is this in any way LEGAL? IF yes it would be a hoot, Strafing 4 wheelers who trespass would be a cheap source of entertainment. I'm sure a wingtip installation would be easy enough. cdngoose -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Miller Subject: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" I'm picturing strafing competitions at future fly-ins. Jeff Small won't be able to resist this one for his yearly Pennsylvania sheebang. Has anyone put thought into how a paintball rig might actually be installed in a 601 wing? Maybe baggage locker? Has anyone tried shooting paintballs out the window of a 701 or other a/c? Would the relative wind be just too much for those low powered and huge missles to actually be feasible? Bob ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:45 AM PST US From: "Dave & Darlene" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tax Write-Off --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" Well I don't know about you guys in the sunny, warm USA but I'm writing off my plane. I do have a business that I write off these types of things though. Thing is you can only write off what you can afford. Dave Alberta 99% to go www.borrowmyhusband.com/Nimigon_601XL ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tax Write-Off > --> Zenith-List message posted by: SkyKingN@aol.com > > no but if you find a way i would love to hear qabout it always looking for > a > way to get my money back from uncle sam > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:19 AM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees cgalley wrote: >-snip- for What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank operations! > >Cy Galley >EAA Safety Programs Editor > You are right Cy, The POH of my C172D said to move the fuel selector from Both to Left or Right when above 10,000 feet. I spent so little time there that I don't know if it made a difference or prevented a potential problem. My Mooney doesn't even have a Both position tho. Ron N601TD do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:15 AM PST US From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:41 AM PST US From: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Pray tell, WHne and where is the Penna Fly-in??? I'd love to attend! Jeff Glaserow CH 601 HDS 6384E -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Miller Subject: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" I'm picturing strafing competitions at future fly-ins. Jeff Small won't be able to resist this one for his yearly Pennsylvania sheebang. Has anyone put thought into how a paintball rig might actually be installed in a 601 wing? Maybe baggage locker? Has anyone tried shooting paintballs out the window of a 701 or other a/c? Would the relative wind be just too much for those low powered and huge missles to actually be feasible? Bob ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:39 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Here even in humid Mid-America, I have found little water when sumping. You need to have quick drains on the tanks and they should be exercised before going to the gascolator. Of course if one finds a lot of water in a particular tank one should select that tank and do an extra long sump of the gascolator. Many water problems are created by leaving the plane in the weather and having water leak into the tank via defective caps and gaskets. It is my opinion that having a "BOTH" even if labeled Ground or some such label is asking for trouble. You might know, but would your friend understand this non-standard arrangement? What happens when you sell? Will the buyer understand the liabilities of using the Both position? Having the gascolator after the valve is rather standard in the certified world. Other wise you would need one gascolator for each and every tank tank. Some planes may have 6, even 8 tanks but only one gascolator. But each tank will have a quick drain sump. Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Kinney" Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Kevin Kinney > > I've thought about the L/R/B switch problem. > > I understand the reasons for not running Both while in the air. I'm not flying yet, but I plan on using the "Left/Right" method. > > But I alos plan on getting a Off/Left/Right/Both fuel valve. But I plan on using Both only when tying down and will replacard "Both" to "Ground." > > Why? Because I plan on putting the gascolator on the engine side of the valve. If you leave the valve on Left, the gascolator will only collect water from the left tank. In preflight, you'll have to switch the valve to Right and drain the line again. > On top of this, I don't know how long to wait after switching the valve. How long does it take water to flow to the lowest point when mixed with gas? The alternative to waiting is to drain the gascolator several times to make sure you've got fuel from the right tank in the drain cup. > > How does the list feel about this approach? > > Regards, > kk > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:32 AM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell I know we have gone through this many times before but I don't feel that there can be too much discussion on safety! One thing I don't understand is the statement" with a both you will suck air from the empty tank". Wouldn't you still suck air from that empty tank if you had a left/right valve on that tanks position until you switched? Same thing with a both. When a tank goes empty you will have to switch from both to which ever has a little fuel left. This brings up another point. In the last 10 years I have never run my tanks lower that 1/4 and most of the time I fill up after 2hrs fly time. As far as the fuel pumps on the wings, why do most low wings hang them low on the firewall if there is such a vapour lock problem? I am absolutely no expert on this subject and am not trying to justify my setup ( and still may change the whole setup before the first flight) ,but after flying in both Cessnas and Pipers, I prefer to make the fuel system as simple as possible. Both valve , one elect pump, one gascolator, one engine. Jack cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" There is a reason that you list for NOT having a both with a single pump. You will suck air from an empty tank. Because of unbalanced flow one tank will always empty first creating the air sucking problem IF you have both on line. If your solution is fool proof, don't you think low wing certified plane would have been using it? The first thing I did with my Bellanca was to run out of fuel because I had been flying a Cessna. After I switched tanks, the noise resumed but I learned to check for fullest tank before I enter the traffic pattern so the engine didn't get quiet due to unporting in a turn. For What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank operations! Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while back. Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't until I fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of that. Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn the low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air is easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked with my tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have done the fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have it set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I will have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when I start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the tanks full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' above the airport duri > ng the > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" placard on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, keep in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine failure. Jack in Clovis Ca > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > Progress update at: > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:01 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Here's one idea to get rid of trespassers. Replace the hose with a paintball gun and you are all set. :o) http://www.pestproducts.com/scarecrow.htm Carlos most definitely do not archive --- Cdngoose <601xl@sympatico.ca> wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > For the Lawyers in the Bunch is this in any way LEGAL? IF yes it would > be a hoot, Strafing 4 wheelers who trespass would be a cheap source of > entertainment. I'm sure a wingtip installation would be easy enough. > > cdngoose ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:31 AM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page I saw a paintball gattling gun in eBay a while back... Now THAT would be fun. Trevor Page 601HD 99% complete. Waiting for better weather :( NOT NOT ARCHIVE On Jan 23, 2005, at 11:48 AM, Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Here's one idea to get rid of trespassers. > Replace the hose with a paintball gun and you are all set. :o) > > http://www.pestproducts.com/scarecrow.htm > > Carlos > most definitely do not archive > > > --- Cdngoose <601xl@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> >> >> For the Lawyers in the Bunch is this in any way LEGAL? IF yes it would >> be a hoot, Strafing 4 wheelers who trespass would be a cheap source of >> entertainment. I'm sure a wingtip installation would be easy enough. >> >> cdngoose > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:59 AM PST US From: Rico Voss Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss > Wouldn't you still suck air from > that empty tank if you had a left/right valve on > that tanks position until you switched? Same thing > with a both. Jack, I believe you're right -- the "both" position shouldn't matter, provided that proper fuel management is used (not running too low). "Both" will also allow the tanks to equalize, will it not? Obviously, it makes sense to use the fuller tank, if levels are different. IF you're not going to run a tank dry, there's no problem, using L, R, or Both, using one pump. But, if you run dry with 2 wing tank pumps running (TO&L) into a common line , what happens if one pump does run dry, with valve in "both" position? Does the airbound pump act like a check valve, forcing fuel on down the line, maintaining that engine noise? That would be the only advantage I can see for using 2 wing pumps, and ONLY if the selector is in Both . [confused? .. me too. Where are you, Frank Hinde] >why do most low > wings hang them low on the firewall if there is such > a vapour lock problem? 2. I can't see vapor lock (different from running dry)occurring on the suction side of a pump, unless the supply line is constricted. And I cannot see how it would occur on the pressure side of the pump, except for heated fuel lines forward of the firewall--different problem. I'm planning to use the simple approach in the plans for a valve from each tank Tee'ed into the gascolator and pump. [ Unless I'm convinced otherwise] Rico, XL, low-time pilot. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:47 AM PST US From: "Joe Kerr" Subject: Zenith-List: Two questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" Hello list- Well my THIRD!!! (Don't ask, let's just say I'm happy to do my part to keep a fine company like Zenith profitable) rudder kit arrives tomorrow, so I thought I'd ask some of the questions I'm a little fuzzy on to be sure I am on the right track and actually end up with a rudder I can use, and maybe help future rudder builders avoid the same problems. The demise of the second rudder was twist that I didn't find acceptable when all was said and done. Here's where I think I went wrong, what do you think? In the photo assembly manual (Revision 2.0) the instruction "To prevent twist, the trailing edge is along the front side of the beam..." In the photo next to it, the trailing edge is shown laying on the beam maybe a half inch or so, and the tip of rudder spar rib #1 almost extends all the way to the bend of the trailing edge and is also located above the beam. The rib I received in my kit was about 1 to 1.5" shorter than this. It ended before tapering all the way to the point seen in the photo. I placed about 1/4 inch of the trailing edge on my beam and drilled and cleco'd from there. I THINK what might have happened is the skin bowed downward a little in the inch or so space between the beam and actual end of my rib. Does this seem like a logical possibility? For others who have had twist (surely someone other than me must have some twist at some time), what do you think caused your twist? What I am going to do next time is place the trailing edge over the beam and be less concerned about being close to the front of the beam, but rather make sure some of the rib sits over the beam, and that the same amount of rib sits over the beam when I turn it over to drill the other side. Any comments appreciated. Zinc Oxide in a spray can seems to be useless. It clogs in 3 seconds, regardless of the temperature. I ended up putting a 'spray popcorn ceiling' nozzle on the can - significantly larger hole- and dumped about 1/3 the can out onto the rudder in about 20 seconds. It covered it, but it was sure thick. Any solutions to this? Just to verify-are these the steps needed to correctly applying corrosion protection- 1) Wash with dish detergent, 2) Alumiprep 33, 3) Alodine 1201, then 4) Zinc Oxide. Do you need to scuff the entire surface (or any surface) with scothbright maroon pad before step 1? Can any of these steps be skipped? Sorry for the long post, but if I don't get this rudder 100% right, my wife will make me take up woodworking. -Joe ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:20 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Jeff, I'm not sure exactly when/where the fly-in is, but believe it's in the summer and expect Jeff will notify us as that time rolls around. Sounds like one of the more fun ones, with flour bombs and spot-landing contests. I've actually installed a flour-bomb-bay in the floor of my 601 in anticipation! Bob ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:26 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com On my 601 XL, I am using a facet pump between nose ribs 2 and 3 on each wing.Each pump then feeds a T with a check valve for each tank. Then to a open /shut valve and finally to the gascolator/engine. Each pump is fed from normal and emergency power thru a D.P.D.T center off toggle switch. The spare set of contacts on each switch control indicator LEDS showing operation. Joe Motis 601 XL working on wings ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:26 PM PST US From: Mark Grieve Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery clamav-milter version 0.80j on localhost --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Grieve A flour bomb bay door? You people are having way too much fun! The paint ball gun sound great but I am sure there is some reason it would be illegal. Tracer rounds would be needed don't you think? I once posed a question to a friend who is a state trooper. Say a person had a pilot license and the proper permit to own fully automatic firearms. Ken finished the question "How long before you lose both licenses forever?" Mark Do not archive Bob Miller wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > >Jeff, >I'm not sure exactly when/where the fly-in is, but believe it's in the >summer and expect Jeff will notify us as that time rolls around. Sounds >like one of the more fun ones, with flour bombs and spot-landing contests. >I've actually installed a flour-bomb-bay in the floor of my 601 in >anticipation! >Bob > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:36 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Two questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, Joe It's been a while since I built the rudder, but there are others around with fresher memories that will surely provide some good input. I am building from scratch, and I made forming blocks for the rudder ribs (it's not necessary - much easier to bend them on a small bending brake). The fact is that I did have the forming blocks around, and I clamped them inside the rib during the drilling process. This helped a lot to avoid flexing. You could easily cut some wedges out of 3/4" plywood or MDF for this purpose (round the edges for a better fit). As for priming, I recommend a search, both in the archives and on the 'net. Tons of info and opinions out there. Good luck Carlos --- Joe Kerr wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" > > Hello list- > Well my THIRD!!! (Don't ask, let's just say I'm happy to do my part to keep a fine company like > Zenith profitable) rudder kit arrives tomorrow, so I thought I'd ask some of the questions I'm a > little fuzzy on to be sure I am on the right track and actually end up with a rudder I can use, > and maybe help future rudder builders avoid the same problems. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:36 PM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> BOB Send pictures of the flour-bomb-bay in the floor this just sounds like too much fun not to do!!!!! Now I will have a way to retaliate against those Amish drive by shootings. Please God DO NOT ARCHIVE !!!!! Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Miller Subject: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Jeff, I'm not sure exactly when/where the fly-in is, but believe it's in the summer and expect Jeff will notify us as that time rolls around. Sounds like one of the more fun ones, with flour bombs and spot-landing contests. I've actually installed a flour-bomb-bay in the floor of my 601 in anticipation! Bob ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:37 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Two questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Joe: I consider myself a foremost authority on the subject of Tempo Zinc Oxide after spraying over 20 cans of the rascally stuff. It may have been cheaper to use a gun but the cans were convenient. When the can is new it clogs every time. I have found that if you pull the tip off the can and gently place it back in a new position it will spray strong again for quite a while. Sometimes you have to do it several times to get it to unclog. Don't push but ease the tip back on the can until you get a strong spray. I also quit spraying the can upside down to clear the tip. If it is spraying strong when you finish it will spray again the next day. As far as the procedure for priming, I scotchbright, clean with safety solvent or lacquer thinner, and spray with Oxide. Things are sticking really good so far. Check back with me in 30 years. Jack in Clovis Ca --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" Zinc Oxide in a spray can seems to be useless. It clogs in 3 seconds, regardless of the temperature. Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:28 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Luscombe which has two wing tanks is NOT approved for both tanks at the same time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron dewees" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees > > cgalley wrote: > > >-snip- for What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank operations! > > > >Cy Galley > >EAA Safety Programs Editor > > > You are right Cy, > The POH of my C172D said to move the fuel selector from Both to Left or > Right when above 10,000 feet. I spent so little time there that I don't > know if it made a difference or prevented a potential problem. My > Mooney doesn't even have a Both position tho. > > Ron > N601TD > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:35 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Two questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Joe, You're showing the determination of a good scratch builder. After you've built the 3rd rudder, the next few pieces you might try making on your own and see if you can recoup the cost. I'm sure you can do it. Hang in there, Larry McFarland Do not archive posted by: "Joe Kerr" > Hello list- > Well my THIRD!!! (Don't ask, let's just say I'm happy to do my part to > keep a fine company like Zenith profitable) rudder kit arrives tomorrow, > > -Joe ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:22 PM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Zenith-List: flour and camera port --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Mark, I'd be glad to send photos of the flour-port. (Yes, I DO wish I had termed it such in the original email!) It very simple, and goes in the floor just forward of the pilot's seat, and will more often serve as a camera port. Where's the best place to send the photos so whoever is interested can see them? Bob PS--I've double-checked, and it is still perfectly legal to drop things from an a/c, as long as the PIC ensures there's no danger to people or property. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:20 PM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH601XL Flight Training --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" The URL is: www.sportsplanes.com Jim Pellien President Mid-Atlantic Region SportsPlanes.Com 703-313-4818 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clyde Barcus Subject: Zenith-List: CH601XL Flight Training --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" Check out sportplanes.com For those who have not seen it yet, sportplanes are setting regional training and sales centers using factory CH 601 XL's, so far they have 14 set up. That will be great for builders like us, we can get transitional training or a sport pilot license in a 601XL. It is also interesting to see what the factory 601's are going for. Clyde Barcus 601XL Builder barcusc@comcast.net ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:26 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" I thought you understood the air sucking. If you are sucking fuel from both tanks, You will suck air from the empty tank REGARDLESS of the amount of gas in the other tank. You can not suck fuel if one of the tanks is empty not even if the other tank is full from a both valve setting. Now with some systems, once you suck air, it takes a while to purge the system of the air. The momentary loss of power may happen at the most inopportune time. i.e... at take off when you are over the trees or short of the runway. There should be no argument not to build potential safety hazards. Aviation is not very forgiving when it comes to mistakes. Why build them in? Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair A Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > I know we have gone through this many times before but I don't feel that there can be too much discussion on safety! One thing I don't understand is the statement" with a both you will suck air from the empty tank". Wouldn't you still suck air from that empty tank if you had a left/right valve on that tanks position until you switched? Same thing with a both. When a tank goes empty you will have to switch from both to which ever has a little fuel left. This brings up another point. In the last 10 years I have never run my tanks lower that 1/4 and most of the time I fill up after 2hrs fly time. As far as the fuel pumps on the wings, why do most low wings hang them low on the firewall if there is such a vapour lock problem? I am absolutely no expert on this subject and am not trying to justify my setup ( and still may change the whole setup before the first flight) ,but after flying in both Cessnas and Pipers, I prefer to make the fuel system as simple as possible. Both valve > , one > elect pump, one gascolator, one engine. Jack > cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > There is a reason that you list for NOT having a both with a single pump. > You will suck air from an empty tank. > > Because of unbalanced flow one tank will always empty first creating the air > sucking problem IF you have both on line. > > If your solution is fool proof, don't you think low wing certified plane > would have been using it? > > The first thing I did with my Bellanca was to run out of fuel because I had > been flying a Cessna. After I switched tanks, the noise resumed but I > learned to check for fullest tank before I enter the traffic pattern so the > engine didn't get quiet due to unporting in a turn. > > For What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank operations! > > Cy Galley > EAA Safety Programs Editor > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Russell" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > > > > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while back. > Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't until I > fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of that. > Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn the > low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air is > easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked with my > tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. > Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have done the > fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have it > set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I will > have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when I > start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the tanks > full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' above > the airport duri > > ng the > > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" placard > on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, keep > in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine > failure. Jack in Clovis Ca > > > > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > > Progress update at: > > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > > > > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > Progress update at: > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:25 PM PST US From: "george may" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" As always this discussion on fuel setups is interesting. I also have been evaluating which way to go. I believe the RV guys use only one pump mounted on the firewall with left and right only selection. Is there really a good reasonn to do it differently than how the designer specifies? Has ZAC had any vapor lock issues? Not being an expert in this area, I'm leaning toward a fuel flow layout as specified on the drawings. George May 601XL On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:07 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell cy: You miss my point here. The valve has nothing to do with sucking air. If you have a left/right valve and you run dry in the tank your on you will suck air just the same. You will still have to switch to the other. My point is that if you have a both valve and one tank runs dry and "Sucks air" you will still need to switch to the left or right tank (which ever hopefully has fuel) and then kick yourself for calling it that close to start with. Jack in Do not archive Clovis cA cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" I thought you understood the air sucking. If you are sucking fuel from both tanks, You will suck air from the empty tank REGARDLESS of the amount of gas in the other tank. You can not suck fuel if one of the tanks is empty not even if the other tank is full from a both valve setting. Now with some systems, once you suck air, it takes a while to purge the system of the air. The momentary loss of power may happen at the most inopportune time. i.e... at take off when you are over the trees or short of the runway. There should be no argument not to build potential safety hazards. Aviation is not very forgiving when it comes to mistakes. Why build them in? Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair A Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > I know we have gone through this many times before but I don't feel that there can be too much discussion on safety! One thing I don't understand is the statement" with a both you will suck air from the empty tank". Wouldn't you still suck air from that empty tank if you had a left/right valve on that tanks position until you switched? Same thing with a both. When a tank goes empty you will have to switch from both to which ever has a little fuel left. This brings up another point. In the last 10 years I have never run my tanks lower that 1/4 and most of the time I fill up after 2hrs fly time. As far as the fuel pumps on the wings, why do most low wings hang them low on the firewall if there is such a vapour lock problem? I am absolutely no expert on this subject and am not trying to justify my setup ( and still may change the whole setup before the first flight) ,but after flying in both Cessnas and Pipers, I prefer to make the fuel system as simple as possible. Both valve > , one > elect pump, one gascolator, one engine. Jack > cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > There is a reason that you list for NOT having a both with a single pump. > You will suck air from an empty tank. > > Because of unbalanced flow one tank will always empty first creating the air > sucking problem IF you have both on line. > > If your solution is fool proof, don't you think low wing certified plane > would have been using it? > > The first thing I did with my Bellanca was to run out of fuel because I had > been flying a Cessna. After I switched tanks, the noise resumed but I > learned to check for fullest tank before I enter the traffic pattern so the > engine didn't get quiet due to unporting in a turn. > > For What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank operations! > > Cy Galley > EAA Safety Programs Editor > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Russell" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > > > > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while back. > Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't until I > fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of that. > Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn the > low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air is > easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked with my > tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. > Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have done the > fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have it > set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I will > have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when I > start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the tanks > full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' above > the airport duri > > ng the > > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" placard > on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, keep > in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine > failure. Jack in Clovis Ca > > > > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > > Progress update at: > > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > > > > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > Progress update at: > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:57 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Two questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Jack, re the spray cans clogging.. Take the tip off the can and soak it in acetone for a few minutes. You can also pass a very fine wire throu the outlet hole while in the acetone. Never failed me yet! Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I agree, I hate the single pump idea but it is kinda ok if 1) There are large lines going from the tank (with minimal bends/restrictions) to the pump 2) You NEVER suck a tank dry unless you are altitude. Its not certain from my perspective that you will get the pump purged again to pump from a full tank. Pumps in the wing roots is so much more elegant. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cgalley Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" I thought you understood the air sucking. If you are sucking fuel from both tanks, You will suck air from the empty tank REGARDLESS of the amount of gas in the other tank. You can not suck fuel if one of the tanks is empty not even if the other tank is full from a both valve setting. Now with some systems, once you suck air, it takes a while to purge the system of the air. The momentary loss of power may happen at the most inopportune time. i.e... at take off when you are over the trees or short of the runway. There should be no argument not to build potential safety hazards. Aviation is not very forgiving when it comes to mistakes. Why build them in? Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair A Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > I know we have gone through this many times before but I don't feel that there can be too much discussion on safety! One thing I don't understand is the statement" with a both you will suck air from the empty tank". Wouldn't you still suck air from that empty tank if you had a left/right valve on that tanks position until you switched? Same thing with a both. When a tank goes empty you will have to switch from both to which ever has a little fuel left. This brings up another point. In the last 10 years I have never run my tanks lower that 1/4 and most of the time I fill up after 2hrs fly time. As far as the fuel pumps on the wings, why do most low wings hang them low on the firewall if there is such a vapour lock problem? I am absolutely no expert on this subject and am not trying to justify my setup ( and still may change the whole setup before the first flight) ,but after flying in both Cessnas and Pipers, I prefer to make the fuel system as simple as possible. Both valve > , one > elect pump, one gascolator, one engine. Jack > cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > There is a reason that you list for NOT having a both with a single pump. > You will suck air from an empty tank. > > Because of unbalanced flow one tank will always empty first creating the air > sucking problem IF you have both on line. > > If your solution is fool proof, don't you think low wing certified plane > would have been using it? > > The first thing I did with my Bellanca was to run out of fuel because I had > been flying a Cessna. After I switched tanks, the noise resumed but I > learned to check for fullest tank before I enter the traffic pattern so the > engine didn't get quiet due to unporting in a turn. > > For What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank operations! > > Cy Galley > EAA Safety Programs Editor > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Russell" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > > > > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while back. > Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't until I > fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of that. > Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn the > low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air is > easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked with my > tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. > Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have done the > fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have it > set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I will > have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when I > start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the tanks > full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' above > the airport duri > > ng the > > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" placard > on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, keep > in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine > failure. Jack in Clovis Ca > > > > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > > Progress update at: > > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > > > > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > Progress update at: > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:00 PM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> George many people change the design to meet there personal needs for the one plane they will build in there lifetime. I'm no exception I have strayed from the original plans that Chris has laid out but that is due to using an automotive conversion with high pressure EFI. But if your looking for a real valued opinion on a fuel system design why not go with Chris Heinz's design, after all he has built more planes then everyone on this list combined and you even have a copy of his design in your set of plans. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of george may Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" As always this discussion on fuel setups is interesting. I also have been evaluating which way to go. I believe the RV guys use only one pump mounted on the firewall with left and right only selection. Is there really a good reasonn to do it differently than how the designer specifies? Has ZAC had any vapor lock issues? Not being an expert in this area, I'm leaning toward a fuel flow layout as specified on the drawings. George May 601XL On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:14 PM PST US From: "Leo J. Corbalis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" Be a REAL sport,open the canopy on a 601 !!! Leo Corbalis do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > > I'm picturing strafing competitions at future fly-ins. Jeff Small won't be > able to resist this one for his yearly Pennsylvania sheebang. > Has anyone put thought into how a paintball rig might actually be installed > in a 601 wing? Maybe baggage locker? > Has anyone tried shooting paintballs out the window of a 701 or other a/c? > Would the relative wind be just too much for those low powered and huge > missles to actually be feasible? > Bob > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:21 PM PST US From: "Gary A. Boothe" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Two questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" >What I am going to do next time is place the trailing edge over the beam >and ! > be less concerned about being close to the front of the beam, but rather > make sure some of the rib sits over the beam, and that the same >amount of > rib sits over the beam when I turn it over to drill the other side. Any > comments appreciated. Joe, You're on the right track here. My first rib was also about 1.5" short, but if you set up as you describe you should be good. Still not sure how you got off track, though. The trailing edge is automatically set when the front edge is lined up with the front of the spar. Let the end of the ribs fall where they will. Good luck, three's a charm. I admire your perseverance. You should get a Christmas card from ZAC this year! Gary Boothe WW Corvair Power - 601HDS Rudder complete. Hori.Stab. 50% > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:13 PM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Zenith-List: paint cans clogging --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" Wipe the nozzle with some lacquer thinner, blot dry and put a small piece of aluminum tape over the nozzle hole to seal it. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:29 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: quite a website, Andre ! (CH701) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" There are easier ways to move a park bench! Going to all the trouble of building an airplane for that! Kevin Bonds ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Zenith-List: quite a website, Andre ! (CH701) > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" > > 701 builders: > > You will get a kick out of this: click on the picture at www.ch701.com > (courtesy of Andre (Netherlands) and his new, striking 701 ) > > do not archive > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:20 PM PST US From: "Mark Eagar" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Eagar" Joe, what is a facet pump? do you have a sketch of your setup? sounds interesting to me. thanks Mark Eagar 701 kit El Dorado Hills, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com > > On my 601 XL, I am using a facet pump between nose ribs 2 and 3 on each > wing.Each pump then feeds a T with a check valve for each tank. Then to a > open > /shut valve and finally to the gascolator/engine. Each pump is fed from > normal > and emergency power thru a D.P.D.T center off toggle switch. The spare > set of > contacts on each switch control indicator LEDS showing operation. > > Joe Motis > 601 XL > working on wings > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin If you are running in the "both" position and the engine quits because you ran one tank dry, will you know immediately which tank just ran dry? You will with a left-right only selector. on 1/23/05 4:51 PM, Jack Russell at clojan@sbcglobal.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > cy: You miss my point here. The valve has nothing to do with sucking air. If > you have a left/right valve and you run dry in the tank your on you will suck > air just the same. You will still have to switch to the other. My point is > that if you have a both valve and one tank runs dry and "Sucks air" you will > still need to switch to the left or right tank (which ever hopefully has fuel) > and then kick yourself for calling it that close to start with. > Jack in Do not archive Clovis cA > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:30 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Now that is a good point Bryan. I do have 2 fuel gauges and I would hope that one would show more fuel than the other in that case. Second if my tanks are that low I would be running on either the left or right but not on both. Jack do not archive Bryan Martin wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin If you are running in the "both" position and the engine quits because you ran one tank dry, will you know immediately which tank just ran dry? You will with a left-right only selector. on 1/23/05 4:51 PM, Jack Russell at clojan@sbcglobal.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > cy: You miss my point here. The valve has nothing to do with sucking air. If > you have a left/right valve and you run dry in the tank your on you will suck > air just the same. You will still have to switch to the other. My point is > that if you have a both valve and one tank runs dry and "Sucks air" you will > still need to switch to the left or right tank (which ever hopefully has fuel) > and then kick yourself for calling it that close to start with. > Jack in Do not archive Clovis cA > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:02 PM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" It's a low pressure fuel pump, typical used on carbureted engines or low wing airoplanes. Facet is a brand name, I think. You can find them in AirCraft Spruce. Larry N1345L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Eagar" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Eagar" > > Joe, what is a facet pump? do you have a sketch of your setup? sounds > interesting to me. > thanks > Mark Eagar > 701 kit > El Dorado Hills, Ca > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com > > > > On my 601 XL, I am using a facet pump between nose ribs 2 and 3 on each > > wing.Each pump then feeds a T with a check valve for each tank. Then to a > > open > > /shut valve and finally to the gascolator/engine. Each pump is fed from > > normal > > and emergency power thru a D.P.D.T center off toggle switch. The spare > > set of > > contacts on each switch control indicator LEDS showing operation. > > > > Joe Motis > > 601 XL > > working on wings > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin Some of those paintball guns fire their ammo at over 300 ft/sec. That's over 200 mph. on 1/23/05 9:38 AM, Bob Miller at drmiller@cvillepsychology.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > > > I'm picturing strafing competitions at future fly-ins. Jeff Small won't be > able to resist this one for his yearly Pennsylvania sheebang. > Has anyone put thought into how a paintball rig might actually be installed > in a 601 wing? Maybe baggage locker? > Has anyone tried shooting paintballs out the window of a 701 or other a/c? > Would the relative wind be just too much for those low powered and huge > missles to actually be feasible? > Bob -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:13 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" Let's try again. You have the valve on both. It sucks air! The engine quits.The trees are getting closer. Which tank do you select to restore power? You life will depend on it. Which one? Select the wrong one and it is all over. But which one? Gages are notoriously in accurate. Quick! How are you going to pick the tank that still has gas? Which ever one you pick, there will still be a moment where the lines are purging and the engine will not develop power. For that brief moment you could have doubts and then switch to the dry tank. Could ruin your entire day and your airplane. This will not happen if you run a tank dry. You know it is dry and so you select the other tank. The engine will run. Much simpler! Fuel management problems are statistically the #1 lost of power problem. KISS. Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > cy: You miss my point here. The valve has nothing to do with sucking air. If you have a left/right valve and you run dry in the tank your on you will suck air just the same. You will still have to switch to the other. My point is that if you have a both valve and one tank runs dry and "Sucks air" you will still need to switch to the left or right tank (which ever hopefully has fuel) and then kick yourself for calling it that close to start with. > Jack in Do not archive Clovis cA > > cgalley wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > I thought you understood the air sucking. If you are sucking fuel from both > tanks, You will suck air from the empty tank REGARDLESS of the amount of gas > in the other tank. You can not suck fuel if one of the tanks is empty not > even if the other tank is full from a both valve setting. > > Now with some systems, once you suck air, it takes a while to purge the > system of the air. The momentary loss of power may happen at the most > inopportune time. i.e... at take off when you are over the trees or short of > the runway. > > There should be no argument not to build potential safety hazards. Aviation > is not very forgiving when it comes to mistakes. Why build them in? > > Cy Galley - Chair, > AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair > A Service Project of Chapter 75 > EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC > EAA Sport Pilot > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Russell" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > > > I know we have gone through this many times before but I don't feel that > there can be too much discussion on safety! One thing I don't understand is > the statement" with a both you will suck air from the empty tank". Wouldn't > you still suck air from that empty tank if you had a left/right valve on > that tanks position until you switched? Same thing with a both. When a tank > goes empty you will have to switch from both to which ever has a little fuel > left. This brings up another point. In the last 10 years I have never run my > tanks lower that 1/4 and most of the time I fill up after 2hrs fly time. As > far as the fuel pumps on the wings, why do most low wings hang them low on > the firewall if there is such a vapour lock problem? I am absolutely no > expert on this subject and am not trying to justify my setup ( and still may > change the whole setup before the first flight) ,but after flying in both > Cessnas and Pipers, I prefer to make the fuel system as simple as possible. > Both valve > > , one > > elect pump, one gascolator, one engine. Jack > > cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: > "cgalley" > > > > There is a reason that you list for NOT having a both with a single pump. > > You will suck air from an empty tank. > > > > Because of unbalanced flow one tank will always empty first creating the > air > > sucking problem IF you have both on line. > > > > If your solution is fool proof, don't you think low wing certified plane > > would have been using it? > > > > The first thing I did with my Bellanca was to run out of fuel because I > had > > been flying a Cessna. After I switched tanks, the noise resumed but I > > learned to check for fullest tank before I enter the traffic pattern so > the > > engine didn't get quiet due to unporting in a turn. > > > > For What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank > operations! > > > > Cy Galley > > EAA Safety Programs Editor > > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jack Russell" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; > 601XL > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > > > > > > > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while back. > > Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't until I > > fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of that. > > Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn the > > low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air is > > easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked with > my > > tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. > > Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have done > the > > fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have it > > set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I > will > > have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when I > > start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the tanks > > full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' > above > > the airport duri > > > ng the > > > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" > placard > > on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, > keep > > in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine > > failure. Jack in Clovis Ca > > > > > > > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > > > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > > > Progress update at: > > > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > > Progress update at: > > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > > > > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > Progress update at: > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:33 PM PST US From: "Steve Shuck" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Shuck" Seems to me that Fuel Management will prevent any problems. I don't want to find out if any of you that say we will suck air on "both" are correct. I plan on switching to left or right as soon as I reach half full in one tank. Then I'll start planning my next fuel stop. ----- Original Message ----- From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > Let's try again. You have the valve on both. It sucks air! The engine > quits.The trees are getting closer. > > Which tank do you select to restore power? > > You life will depend on it. Which one? Select the wrong one and it is all > over. But which one? Gages are notoriously in accurate. Quick! How are > you > going to pick the tank that still has gas? Which ever one you pick, there > will still be a moment where the lines are purging and the engine will not > develop power. For that brief moment you could have doubts and then switch > to the dry tank. Could ruin your entire day and your airplane. > > This will not happen if you run a tank dry. You know it is dry and so you > select the other tank. The engine will run. Much simpler! > > Fuel management problems are statistically the #1 lost of power problem. > KISS. > > Cy Galley > EAA Safety Programs Editor > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Russell" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; > 601XL > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell >> >> cy: You miss my point here. The valve has nothing to do with sucking air. > If you have a left/right valve and you run dry in the tank your on you > will > suck air just the same. You will still have to switch to the other. My > point > is that if you have a both valve and one tank runs dry and "Sucks air" you > will still need to switch to the left or right tank (which ever hopefully > has fuel) and then kick yourself for calling it that close to start with. >> Jack in Do not archive Clovis cA >> >> cgalley wrote: >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" >> >> I thought you understood the air sucking. If you are sucking fuel from > both >> tanks, You will suck air from the empty tank REGARDLESS of the amount of > gas >> in the other tank. You can not suck fuel if one of the tanks is empty not >> even if the other tank is full from a both valve setting. >> >> Now with some systems, once you suck air, it takes a while to purge the >> system of the air. The momentary loss of power may happen at the most >> inopportune time. i.e... at take off when you are over the trees or short > of >> the runway. >> >> There should be no argument not to build potential safety hazards. > Aviation >> is not very forgiving when it comes to mistakes. Why build them in? >> >> Cy Galley - Chair, >> AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair >> A Service Project of Chapter 75 >> EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC >> EAA Sport Pilot >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jack Russell" >> To: >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; > 601XL >> >> >> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell >> > >> > I know we have gone through this many times before but I don't feel >> > that >> there can be too much discussion on safety! One thing I don't understand > is >> the statement" with a both you will suck air from the empty tank". > Wouldn't >> you still suck air from that empty tank if you had a left/right valve on >> that tanks position until you switched? Same thing with a both. When a > tank >> goes empty you will have to switch from both to which ever has a little > fuel >> left. This brings up another point. In the last 10 years I have never run > my >> tanks lower that 1/4 and most of the time I fill up after 2hrs fly time. > As >> far as the fuel pumps on the wings, why do most low wings hang them low >> on >> the firewall if there is such a vapour lock problem? I am absolutely no >> expert on this subject and am not trying to justify my setup ( and still > may >> change the whole setup before the first flight) ,but after flying in both >> Cessnas and Pipers, I prefer to make the fuel system as simple as > possible. >> Both valve >> > , one >> > elect pump, one gascolator, one engine. Jack >> > cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: >> "cgalley" >> > >> > There is a reason that you list for NOT having a both with a single > pump. >> > You will suck air from an empty tank. >> > >> > Because of unbalanced flow one tank will always empty first creating >> > the >> air >> > sucking problem IF you have both on line. >> > >> > If your solution is fool proof, don't you think low wing certified >> > plane >> > would have been using it? >> > >> > The first thing I did with my Bellanca was to run out of fuel because I >> had >> > been flying a Cessna. After I switched tanks, the noise resumed but I >> > learned to check for fullest tank before I enter the traffic pattern so >> the >> > engine didn't get quiet due to unporting in a turn. >> > >> > For What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank >> operations! >> > >> > Cy Galley >> > EAA Safety Programs Editor >> > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Jack Russell" >> > To: >> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; >> 601XL >> > >> > >> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell >> > > >> > > >> > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while > back. >> > Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't >> > until > I >> > fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of > that. >> > Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn > the >> > low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air > is >> > easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked > with >> my >> > tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. >> > Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have >> > done >> the >> > fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have > it >> > set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I >> will >> > have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when > I >> > start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the > tanks >> > full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' >> above >> > the airport duri >> > > ng the >> > > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" >> placard >> > on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, >> keep >> > in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine >> > failure. Jack in Clovis Ca >> > > >> > > >> > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA >> > > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 >> > > Progress update at: >> > > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > Jack Russell -Clovis CA >> > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 >> > Progress update at: >> > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html >> > >> > >> >> >> Jack Russell -Clovis CA >> 601 XL Jabiru 3300 >> Progress update at: >> http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:50 PM PST US From: "norman" Subject: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" Hello List, Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL? I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA here in the UK. Thank you in advance, Norman .