Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:58 AM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
2. 06:54 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Blair, Heath)
3. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 07:27 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Carl Bertrand)
5. 07:30 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
6. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (N5SL)
7. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
8. 08:01 AM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (Mike Fothergill)
9. 08:44 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Rico Voss)
10. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (N5SL)
11. 08:58 AM - Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Andrew Hinsdale)
12. 09:08 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
13. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
14. 09:14 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
15. 09:40 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Joemotis@aol.com)
16. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Bill Steer)
17. 10:16 AM - Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review (Weston and Judy Walker)
18. 10:39 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Larry McFarland)
19. 10:51 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
20. 10:57 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
21. 11:28 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Rico Voss)
22. 11:36 AM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (norman)
23. 11:49 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
24. 11:50 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
25. 11:52 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Garrou, Douglas)
26. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Gary Gower)
27. 01:53 PM - Paper Fuel filter (Cdngoose)
28. 02:39 PM - Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; (Dr. Perry Morrison)
29. 02:54 PM - Re: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
30. 02:55 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Cdngoose)
31. 03:06 PM - Building a 701 (Tommy Walker)
32. 03:07 PM - Cutting holes, slots, etc. (Tommy Walker)
33. 03:19 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
34. 04:19 PM - Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. (ron wehba)
35. 04:19 PM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (Mike Fothergill)
36. 04:24 PM - Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. (Rick)
37. 04:51 PM - Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. (Jack Russell)
38. 04:52 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Larry McFarland)
39. 05:14 PM - Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. (Mark Stauffer)
40. 07:13 PM - Re: Building a 701 (Larry Martin)
41. 08:12 PM - Re: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
42. 08:27 PM - Re: Converting from single to dual control sticks? (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
43. 08:30 PM - Re: Converting from single to dual control sticks? (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
44. 08:34 PM - Re: CH601XL Flight Training (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
45. 09:23 PM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (norman)
46. 10:07 PM - Re: Building a 701 (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Paint Ball Gunnery |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:02:29 AM Central Standard Time,
bryanmmartin@comcast.net writes:
Some of those paintball guns fire their ammo at over 300 ft/sec. That's over
200 mph.
And then add the speed of the plane......
Message 2
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath" <HBlair@chartercom.com>
After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both
selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps in
each wing or a pump in parallel to the mechanical like the drawing shows. I
am not sure how an RV or a Pitts is set up for inverted flight but it would
be nice to have that warm and fuzzy feeling your getting fuel when you roll.
Thanks for all the thoughts, ideas, and opinions.
Heath
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Getting fuel when you roll is the least of your concerns...I damaged my
crank bearings by going negative G...No oil...Besides, the engine will
quit anyway because if you have carbs they don't work upside down.
Rolls can easily be done in a 601 and keeping positve G, but it is hard
to keep altitude. These are not the most natural aerobatic
airplanes....:)
You don't say what engine you got but if it has Bing carbs the best way
hydraulically speaking is a Facet (use the 406 pumps not the 405's which
don't make enough pressure at full throttle) at the wing root...With one
in each wing root you don't need a selector, nor is it desirable.
I have been flying with this setup for 351 hours and it works like a
charm.
Remember to feed each fuel pump from a seperat electrial source that are
electrically isolated from each other.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Blair,
Heath
Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath"
--> <HBlair@chartercom.com>
After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both
selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps
in each wing or a pump in parallel to the mechanical like the drawing
shows. I am not sure how an RV or a Pitts is set up for inverted flight
but it would be nice to have that warm and fuzzy feeling your getting
fuel when you roll.
Thanks for all the thoughts, ideas, and opinions.
Heath
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
I'm a 701 guy so I comment on this topic with some of trepidation.
I built in 1994 and as a first time builder followed the plans which called
for a nose tank and wing tanks (option).
This system worked well except for large changes in CofG depending on how
much fuel was in the nose tank. In the extreme, a power off landing became
very difficult on floats. I also never liked the idea of a lot of fuel in
the cockpit, close to the engine and all those electrical connections behind
the IP.
I wanted to remove the nose tank but was concerned about feeding directly
from the wings for fear of one or both outlet becoming uncovered when tanks
get low. I finally opted for a small feed/ collector in the rear fuselage
that holds 30 minutes of fuel (2 gallons).
This is the best mod I've made and have recommended the change to many of my
friends.
I know that high and low wing a/c are a different breed but I can't help but
think that a similar set up with fuel pumps in a low wing bird may be an
answer to some of the concerns expressed recently on the list.
As for fuel selectors, I don't have one. I've opted for three valves. One on
the lower instrument panel to shut all fuel to the engine compartment, and
one at each wing root to control wing fuel feed.
With this system I can safely fly with less than a gallon of fuel left in
the a/c (this is not something I do routinely) . The monitoring and warning
devices are such that I have total visibility and control of fuel
management. Assuming I'm still breathing, I should not run out of fuel due
to lack of information.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Put the pumps in the right place (wing roots) and these problems go
away.
If you want to stop with half empty tanks (and I used to before I fitted
my fuel flow meter) you effectively waste half the range, carry extra
weight etc.
Think about it,...If ever your engine splutters you switch the other
pump on...You don't even need to switch the first one off...they engine
will fire right up.
If you are sucking with a single pump it might just suck air when you
switch.
That added to vapour lock risks and in my mind why take the risk...do it
the right way...PUMPS IN THE WING ROOTS....AUTOFUEL IS NOT AVGAS!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Shuck
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Shuck" <stshuck@comcast.net>
Seems to me that Fuel Management will prevent any problems. I don't want
to find out if any of you that say we will suck air on "both" are
correct. I plan on switching to left or right as soon as I reach half
full in one tank.
Then I'll start planning my next fuel stop.
----- Original Message -----
From: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> Let's try again. You have the valve on both. It sucks air! The engine
> quits.The trees are getting closer.
>
> Which tank do you select to restore power?
>
> You life will depend on it. Which one? Select the wrong one and it is
all
> over. But which one? Gages are notoriously in accurate. Quick! How
are
> you
> going to pick the tank that still has gas? Which ever one you pick,
there
> will still be a moment where the lines are purging and the engine will
not
> develop power. For that brief moment you could have doubts and then
switch
> to the dry tank. Could ruin your entire day and your airplane.
>
> This will not happen if you run a tank dry. You know it is dry and so
you
> select the other tank. The engine will run. Much simpler!
>
> Fuel management problems are statistically the #1 lost of power
problem.
> KISS.
>
> Cy Galley
> EAA Safety Programs Editor
> Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack Russell" <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
> 601XL
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell
<clojan@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> cy: You miss my point here. The valve has nothing to do with sucking
air.
> If you have a left/right valve and you run dry in the tank your on
you
> will
> suck air just the same. You will still have to switch to the other. My
> point
> is that if you have a both valve and one tank runs dry and "Sucks air"
you
> will still need to switch to the left or right tank (which ever
hopefully
> has fuel) and then kick yourself for calling it that close to start
with.
>> Jack in Do not archive Clovis cA
>>
>> cgalley <cgalley@qcbc.org> wrote:
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley"
>>
>> I thought you understood the air sucking. If you are sucking fuel
from
> both
>> tanks, You will suck air from the empty tank REGARDLESS of the amount
of
> gas
>> in the other tank. You can not suck fuel if one of the tanks is empty
not
>> even if the other tank is full from a both valve setting.
>>
>> Now with some systems, once you suck air, it takes a while to purge
the
>> system of the air. The momentary loss of power may happen at the most
>> inopportune time. i.e... at take off when you are over the trees or
short
> of
>> the runway.
>>
>> There should be no argument not to build potential safety hazards.
> Aviation
>> is not very forgiving when it comes to mistakes. Why build them in?
>>
>> Cy Galley - Chair,
>> AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
>> A Service Project of Chapter 75
>> EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
>> EAA Sport Pilot
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jack Russell"
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
> 601XL
>>
>>
>> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell
>> >
>> > I know we have gone through this many times before but I don't feel
>> > that
>> there can be too much discussion on safety! One thing I don't
understand
> is
>> the statement" with a both you will suck air from the empty tank".
> Wouldn't
>> you still suck air from that empty tank if you had a left/right valve
on
>> that tanks position until you switched? Same thing with a both. When
a
> tank
>> goes empty you will have to switch from both to which ever has a
little
> fuel
>> left. This brings up another point. In the last 10 years I have never
run
> my
>> tanks lower that 1/4 and most of the time I fill up after 2hrs fly
time.
> As
>> far as the fuel pumps on the wings, why do most low wings hang them
low
>> on
>> the firewall if there is such a vapour lock problem? I am absolutely
no
>> expert on this subject and am not trying to justify my setup ( and
still
> may
>> change the whole setup before the first flight) ,but after flying in
both
>> Cessnas and Pipers, I prefer to make the fuel system as simple as
> possible.
>> Both valve
>> > , one
>> > elect pump, one gascolator, one engine. Jack
>> > cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by:
>> "cgalley"
>> >
>> > There is a reason that you list for NOT having a both with a single
> pump.
>> > You will suck air from an empty tank.
>> >
>> > Because of unbalanced flow one tank will always empty first
creating
>> > the
>> air
>> > sucking problem IF you have both on line.
>> >
>> > If your solution is fool proof, don't you think low wing certified
>> > plane
>> > would have been using it?
>> >
>> > The first thing I did with my Bellanca was to run out of fuel
because I
>> had
>> > been flying a Cessna. After I switched tanks, the noise resumed but
I
>> > learned to check for fullest tank before I enter the traffic
pattern so
>> the
>> > engine didn't get quiet due to unporting in a turn.
>> >
>> > For What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank
>> operations!
>> >
>> > Cy Galley
>> > EAA Safety Programs Editor
>> > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Jack Russell"
>> > To:
>> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector
Valves;
>> 601XL
>> >
>> >
>> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a
while
> back.
>> > Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't
>> > until
> I
>> > fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front
of
> that.
>> > Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a
turn
> the
>> > low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since
air
> is
>> > easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have
checked
> with
>> my
>> > tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a
problem.
>> > Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have
>> > done
>> the
>> > fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I
have
> it
>> > set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing
that I
>> will
>> > have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test
when
> I
>> > start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with
the
> tanks
>> > full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about
4000'
>> above
>> > the airport duri
>> > > ng the
>> > > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both"
>> placard
>> > on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to
do,
>> keep
>> > in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for
engine
>> > failure. Jack in Clovis Ca
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA
>> > > 601 XL Jabiru 3300
>> > > Progress update at:
>> > > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > Jack Russell -Clovis CA
>> > 601 XL Jabiru 3300
>> > Progress update at:
>> > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> Jack Russell -Clovis CA
>> 601 XL Jabiru 3300
>> Progress update at:
>> http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
I have a dumb question related to the subject - In the configuration shown on the
drawing, the gascolator gets gravity fed from the tanks, then the pumps suck
from the gascolator.
If you add pressure will it leak? Do you increase the chances of a leak in the
cockpit if you pressurize the gascolator? OK, it was two dumb questions.
Thanks in advance,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
I'm now officially on wheels!
DO NOT ARCHIVE
"Blair, Heath" <HBlair@chartercom.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath"
After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both
selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps in
each wing or a pump in parallel
---------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
No and No....:)
Firstly this idea of gravity fed.....We are talking INCHES, not feet. At
full flow with a 1/4" line I bet the pressure loss will be some inches.
That means the pump will be sucking, i.e not under gravity feed at all!
If the vapour pressure of the fuel (autofuel has a much higher VP than
autogas which is why "Proper" aircraft get away with mechanical pumps,
electric pumps on the firewal with blast tubes and all that) exceeds the
pressure the fuel is exposed to (like when its under suck) it will
boil....Pumps stops pumping.
As to leaks you are much better off with a leak OUT than a leak in...Air
will stop the pump too.
My gascolator has never leaked under pressure.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector
Valves; 601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
I have a dumb question related to the subject - In the configuration
shown on the drawing, the gascolator gets gravity fed from the tanks,
then the pumps suck from the gascolator.
If you add pressure will it leak? Do you increase the chances of a leak
in the cockpit if you pressurize the gascolator? OK, it was two dumb
questions.
Thanks in advance,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
I'm now officially on wheels!
DO NOT ARCHIVE
"Blair, Heath" <HBlair@chartercom.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath"
After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both
selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps
in each wing or a pump in parallel
---------------------------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi Norman;
I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2
inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4
inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole
in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the
cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons
and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you
are interested, I can email pics off list.
Mike
CH-601HDS
UHS Spinners
norman wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
>
> Hello List,
>
> Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL?
> I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting the servo
to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA here in
the UK.
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Norman
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
Interesting topic, indeed.
I think we'd all agree that people who take to the air
should be smart enough to avoid running out of gas.
But suppose the unexpected happens: failed gauge,
inattentive pilot, dry tank, quiet approaching.....
Frank, in your setup (2 wing pumps into common line,
right?), one pump will be pumping air, the other fuel.
My gut feeling tells me that the fuel will win out
and keep going to the engine. [I dont think these
facet pumps are designed to pump air under any
pressure...] Has anyone ever tested this scenario ??
Frank, have you ever let a tank go dry with both
pumps running?
This is the same as a "both" position but without the
selector, isn't it? Or do you have left/right
cutoffs?
And, is it necessary to add the check valves (in the
Joe Motis scheme), or will the facet pumps act as
check valves??
Sorry to throw more questions, but like Jack said,
this is an important one to understand.
--Rico, XL/3300.
--low time pilot, but 23 years pumping fluids thru 43"
pipes with 3600hp pumps.
__________________________________
Message 10
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Thank you Frank! I don't feel so dumb anymore. It is a very tight fit between
my ribs, but I'll find a way to get a pump in there.
"Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
No and No....:)
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew Hinsdale <ahinsdale@yahoo.com>
Hello Listers
Fascinating discussion on fuel pumps, valves, and
tanks. Everyone seems to have their own ideas - isn't
homebuilding great? Kinda makes me inclined to use a
header tank. Just for a baseline, though, for those
of us who do not own the plans, what fuel system
topology does ZAC recommend?
Andy Hinsdale
*DO NOT ARCHIVE*
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
All your pumped systems in 43 years have a flooded suction
right...:)...Flooded suction is the same as putting the pumps in the
wing roots...Us engineers have been doing this for the last 100 years
and for good reason...:)
Anyway...No a Facet will not pump air...at least not very well. It will
also not pump it against the head of the other pump (6psi)..So yes a
Facet pumping air is no pump at all.
Lets assume for just a moment that the above staement is INCORRECT
(which it isn't). What would happen if one pump is pumping fuel anf the
other is pumping air?...Where would the air go?...Answer it gets vented
out the float bowls in the carbs....Hence no problem.
Are we seeing the elegant simplicity of this system or what?...:)
The common point in my system is the gascolator which I have positioned
just ahead of the spar and the drain valve pokes out the bottom of the
fuse. The discharge from the gascolator goes to the on-off valve, then
to the fuel flow transducer all in the cockpit between the rudder
cables.
Back to the pumps.....I have a simple automotive paper filter at the
DISCHARGE of each pump in the wing roots. Unfortunatly if you use a 106
(or 105, but don't use that one) you will need a check valve for each
pump. I ran without a check vlave for about 50 hours but the contents of
the tank do get transferred to the non running tank. I believe there is
a Facet pump with a proper check valve built in but I'm not sure whaich
one that is.
Have I ever let a pump run dry....Call me a chicken but no I
haven't....:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Voss
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
Interesting topic, indeed.
I think we'd all agree that people who take to the air should be smart
enough to avoid running out of gas.
But suppose the unexpected happens: failed gauge,
inattentive pilot, dry tank, quiet approaching.....
Frank, in your setup (2 wing pumps into common line, right?), one pump
will be pumping air, the other fuel.
My gut feeling tells me that the fuel will win out and keep going to
the engine. [I dont think these facet pumps are designed to pump air
under any
pressure...] Has anyone ever tested this scenario ??
Frank, have you ever let a tank go dry with both pumps running?
This is the same as a "both" position but without the selector, isn't
it? Or do you have left/right cutoffs?
And, is it necessary to add the check valves (in the Joe Motis scheme),
or will the facet pumps act as check valves??
Sorry to throw more questions, but like Jack said, this is an important
one to understand.
--Rico, XL/3300.
--low time pilot, but 23 years pumping fluids thru 43"
pipes with 3600hp pumps.
__________________________________
Message 13
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
It's a little cozy but it will fit. I put mine bolted thru the floor
between the outboard ribs of the center wing.
By the way I am considering the same setup with hi pressure pumps for my
fuel injected RV7, including buying a ZAC gascolator...I assume they
still use the thing fabricated out of 1/8th alu strips made into a
box.....Two inlet ports one discharge, 1/4" NPT threads...Can anyone
tell me??
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector
Valves; 601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Thank you Frank! I don't feel so dumb anymore. It is a very tight fit
between my ribs, but I'll find a way to get a pump in there.
"Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
No and No....:)
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
If you like the permanent stink of fuel in your cockpit then go right
ahead..Personally I couldn't bear the thought of the fuel tank in my
lap!
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
Hinsdale
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew Hinsdale <ahinsdale@yahoo.com>
Hello Listers
Fascinating discussion on fuel pumps, valves, and tanks. Everyone seems
to have their own ideas - isn't homebuilding great? Kinda makes me
inclined to use a header tank. Just for a baseline, though, for those
of us who do not own the plans, what fuel system topology does ZAC
recommend?
Andy Hinsdale
*DO NOT ARCHIVE*
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com
Hi Mark
The Facet pump is the electric fuel pump supplied by ZAC. They come in a few
different g.p.m. ratings and are similar in size and appearence to a door
bell transformer. I will e mail you a pic of my mount in the wing ( off list)
in a day or three.
Joe Motis
601 XL
do not archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
I put my pumps in the same place - between the two outer ribs in the center
wing. I built a small bracket out of "L" angle, riveted to each rib and
with the fuel pump sitting on a heavier "L" angle that goes between the
ribs. My plane is a 601HD, but there's plenty of space there for the pumps.
The plumbing from the pumps is aluminum tubing that runs through the rib
lightening holes, into the cabin, through shutoff and check valves, and into
the gascolator. Aluminum line then goes forward from the gascolator. No
header tank.
Bill
>
> It's a little cozy but it will fit. I put mine bolted thru the floor
> between the outboard ribs of the center wing.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy Walker" <westonjudy@earthlink.net>
I've been flying my Jabiru 3300 powered Zenith 601XL for one year. Here
is a summary of my experience.
Airframe built from a kit closely following Zenith's plans. Standard
tanks only (24 gallons total). No baggage in wings. Center-stick.
Nosewheel. 2.5 years build time. 1200 hours logged in building.
Engine S/N is 427. FWF kit was from Pete at Jabiru USA; but it is not
the current kit they are selling for the 601XL. My kit had no prop
extension; rubber hose with worm-gear clamps for oil lines; suspect oil
cooler as supplied from Jabiru, Australia (mine has had no leaks nor
problems). Prop is wood/composite from GT in Italy.
Panel is minimal IFR equipped with steam flight instruments (I'd do it
differently today with what's available) and a Grand Rapids EIS
monitoring CHT on all 6 cylinders.
Empty weight (including oil) is 736 lbs. Empty C/G is at 295 mm. C/G
is OK except with full passenger/baggage load and nearly empty tanks;
then if not careful I can exceed the rear limit.
No paint. For this past Christmas I treated myself to the
equipment/supplies for polishing. I've just started (half a wing) and
I'm very please with the results. Check the archives for more
information; or see http://www.perfectpolish.com/Index.htm. I'll paint
the fiberglass and some trim.
I've flown about 122 hours. 331 landings. About 38 hours cross
country. Longest trip was about 12.4 hours over 3 days from San
Antonio, Texas, to Ogden, Utah (we moved last summer, courtesy of the US
Air Force). I flew as high as 12,000 MSL on this trip, though much of
my cruise was lower.
Fuel system: There's been a lot of discussion on the list about this. I
followed the original Zenith plans that I bought in August 2001. From
wing tank, down hill through an on/off valve t'd into the gascolator in
the floor just in front of the wing spar; then forward to the electric
boost pump also mounted on the floor; then up and through the firewall
to the mechanical pump on the engine. I've also got a fuel pressure
sender in-line between mechanical pump and carby. The fuel is down hill
with some head pressure all the way to the boost pump that I only use on
take-off and landing. From there it is uphill to the mechanical pump.
So, I'm breaking the rule regarding a pump (the engine-mounted
mechanical one) sucking fuel. I've used 100LL only. I've not had any
problem. If I ever did have a hiccup, would turning the electric boost
pump on take care of it? Hopefully I'll never have the chance to find
out. I usually leave both fuel valves on. The fuel burn is fairly even
from the two tanks, unless I'm doing a lot of maneuvering. When I have
had imbalances, I just shut one valve off for a while in cruise. I've
never run a tank lower than a couple of gallons.
Since break-in was finished, I've used Aeroshell 100plus (in Texas) and
15W-50 (in Utah). Very little oil burn. I've cut all the filters open.
I never saw a thing. However at the last oil change, I washed the paper
element in avgas and used a magnet to collect a very small bit of
ferrous material. I've not sent any samples for oil analysis. Has
anyone else?
I like the plane. It is comfortable, easy to fly, relatively fast. My
fuel burn is too high (more on this later), which results in shorter
legs than I would like on my long cross countries. I've got about 3.5
hours in the tanks. I always try to land with an hour in the tanks.
Sometimes, especially with a head wind, I've wished for more time than
2.5 hours. But that hasn't been a problem often. If I wasn't so heavy
(6'2" and 235 lbs), and have a teenage son is now bigger and taller, the
extra tanks would be nice occasionally. However, I've got about the
best compromise for our mission profile.
I've had no in-flight emergencies. No problems. Nothing broken or
bent. (See the archives about one year ago for my too-exciting first
flight--significantly heavy left wing.)
Now for some numbers. Typically I cruise at 2850 rpms and about 110
knots TAS (=127mph). My airspeed indicator is off (reads high), so all
my numbers are a bit suspect. However, the 110 knot cruise has been
roughly verified on many occasions with GPS (using reciprocal headings
for dealing with winds).
Fuel burn at cruise is about 7 gallons an hour. In my view this is too
high. Also EGTs seem a bit low. Sometime I intend to modify my carby
as Jabiru is now offering/recommending.
The following are averages from about 20 flights from April through
December (all after the flight-testing and engine break-in). All
readings were taken at 2850 RPMs.
Oil Temp 193
Oil Pressure 46
Fuel Pressure 3.4
Volts 14.3
Vacuum Pressure 5.4
EGT Cyl 5 1255
EGT Cyl 6 1134
CHT Cyl 1 215
CHT Cyl 2 251
CHT Cyl 3 253
CHT Cyl 4 214
CHT Cyl 5 274
CHT Cyl 6 253
During the test flying, I had greater variance in the CHTs. I added
additional deflector/baffles above cylinders 3-4 to even them up. I've
never tried addressing the EGT difference.
During the test flying period, I tried doing some of the flight tests
that I read about in back issues of Sport Aviation. After I was through
with the test period, I found this article on Avweb that helped me
better manipulate and extrapolate my test data:
http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/182410-1.html
Here are some of the results, all for a 1320 lb weight, sea level
density altitude, and in knots.
Best glide 83, sinking 733 ft/min
Best angle climb (Vx) 71
Best rate climb (Vy) 87 climbing at 1068 ft/min
10,000 density altitude: best rate climb (Vy) 76 climbing at 460 ft/min
Here are the same numbers but for 1050 lb weight:
Best glide 74, sinking 654 ft/min
Best angle climb (Vx) 63
Best rate climb (Vy) 85 climbing at 1528 ft/min
10,000 density altitude: best rate climb (Vy) 73 climbing at 824 ft/min
Please take all of this with a grain of salt. My ASI is not calibrated
well. I figure these numbers are relatively good for my airplane as it
is currently configured.
For those still building: press on, the results are well worth the
effort.
For those flying XLs, I'm curious if your experience varies much from
mine.
Best wishes to all,
Weston Walker
N454WA
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Frank,
I've got a header tank and the smell of gasoline is never present because
the tank has a sealed gas cap, a tube in from the wings and in addition to
the
feed line to the engjne I put in an overflow line that is routed down and
out
to the outboard right centerwing rib. This prevents ever having to smell
fuel.
Something to remember if you're still building or about to.
Larry
> If you like the permanent stink of fuel in your cockpit then go right
> ahead..Personally I couldn't bear the thought of the fuel tank in my
> lap!
>
> Frank
Message 19
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| Subject: | Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
You should be ok if you continue to use Avgas.
But if you suck a tank dry and run "Both" you may not get it restarted.
If you use Mogas I would recommend buying a second pump and mounting
both in the wing roots.
I have been told with this engine you have to keep the mechanical
pump...I do not know why so have to go on faith on that one.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weston and
Judy Walker
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy Walker"
--> <westonjudy@earthlink.net>
I've been flying my Jabiru 3300 powered Zenith 601XL for one year. Here
is a summary of my experience.
Airframe built from a kit closely following Zenith's plans. Standard
tanks only (24 gallons total). No baggage in wings. Center-stick.
Nosewheel. 2.5 years build time. 1200 hours logged in building.
Engine S/N is 427. FWF kit was from Pete at Jabiru USA; but it is not
the current kit they are selling for the 601XL. My kit had no prop
extension; rubber hose with worm-gear clamps for oil lines; suspect oil
cooler as supplied from Jabiru, Australia (mine has had no leaks nor
problems). Prop is wood/composite from GT in Italy.
Panel is minimal IFR equipped with steam flight instruments (I'd do it
differently today with what's available) and a Grand Rapids EIS
monitoring CHT on all 6 cylinders.
Empty weight (including oil) is 736 lbs. Empty C/G is at 295 mm. C/G
is OK except with full passenger/baggage load and nearly empty tanks;
then if not careful I can exceed the rear limit.
No paint. For this past Christmas I treated myself to the
equipment/supplies for polishing. I've just started (half a wing) and
I'm very please with the results. Check the archives for more
information; or see http://www.perfectpolish.com/Index.htm. I'll paint
the fiberglass and some trim.
I've flown about 122 hours. 331 landings. About 38 hours cross
country. Longest trip was about 12.4 hours over 3 days from San
Antonio, Texas, to Ogden, Utah (we moved last summer, courtesy of the US
Air Force). I flew as high as 12,000 MSL on this trip, though much of
my cruise was lower.
Fuel system: There's been a lot of discussion on the list about this. I
followed the original Zenith plans that I bought in August 2001. From
wing tank, down hill through an on/off valve t'd into the gascolator in
the floor just in front of the wing spar; then forward to the electric
boost pump also mounted on the floor; then up and through the firewall
to the mechanical pump on the engine. I've also got a fuel pressure
sender in-line between mechanical pump and carby. The fuel is down hill
with some head pressure all the way to the boost pump that I only use on
take-off and landing. From there it is uphill to the mechanical pump.
So, I'm breaking the rule regarding a pump (the engine-mounted
mechanical one) sucking fuel. I've used 100LL only. I've not had any
problem. If I ever did have a hiccup, would turning the electric boost
pump on take care of it? Hopefully I'll never have the chance to find
out. I usually leave both fuel valves on. The fuel burn is fairly even
from the two tanks, unless I'm doing a lot of maneuvering. When I have
had imbalances, I just shut one valve off for a while in cruise. I've
never run a tank lower than a couple of gallons.
Since break-in was finished, I've used Aeroshell 100plus (in Texas) and
15W-50 (in Utah). Very little oil burn. I've cut all the filters open.
I never saw a thing. However at the last oil change, I washed the paper
element in avgas and used a magnet to collect a very small bit of
ferrous material. I've not sent any samples for oil analysis. Has
anyone else?
I like the plane. It is comfortable, easy to fly, relatively fast. My
fuel burn is too high (more on this later), which results in shorter
legs than I would like on my long cross countries. I've got about 3.5
hours in the tanks. I always try to land with an hour in the tanks.
Sometimes, especially with a head wind, I've wished for more time than
2.5 hours. But that hasn't been a problem often. If I wasn't so heavy
(6'2" and 235 lbs), and have a teenage son is now bigger and taller, the
extra tanks would be nice occasionally. However, I've got about the
best compromise for our mission profile.
I've had no in-flight emergencies. No problems. Nothing broken or
bent. (See the archives about one year ago for my too-exciting first
flight--significantly heavy left wing.)
Now for some numbers. Typically I cruise at 2850 rpms and about 110
knots TAS (=127mph). My airspeed indicator is off (reads high), so all
my numbers are a bit suspect. However, the 110 knot cruise has been
roughly verified on many occasions with GPS (using reciprocal headings
for dealing with winds).
Fuel burn at cruise is about 7 gallons an hour. In my view this is too
high. Also EGTs seem a bit low. Sometime I intend to modify my carby
as Jabiru is now offering/recommending.
The following are averages from about 20 flights from April through
December (all after the flight-testing and engine break-in). All
readings were taken at 2850 RPMs.
Oil Temp 193
Oil Pressure 46
Fuel Pressure 3.4
Volts 14.3
Vacuum Pressure 5.4
EGT Cyl 5 1255
EGT Cyl 6 1134
CHT Cyl 1 215
CHT Cyl 2 251
CHT Cyl 3 253
CHT Cyl 4 214
CHT Cyl 5 274
CHT Cyl 6 253
During the test flying, I had greater variance in the CHTs. I added
additional deflector/baffles above cylinders 3-4 to even them up. I've
never tried addressing the EGT difference.
During the test flying period, I tried doing some of the flight tests
that I read about in back issues of Sport Aviation. After I was through
with the test period, I found this article on Avweb that helped me
better manipulate and extrapolate my test data:
http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/182410-1.html
Here are some of the results, all for a 1320 lb weight, sea level
density altitude, and in knots.
Best glide 83, sinking 733 ft/min
Best angle climb (Vx) 71
Best rate climb (Vy) 87 climbing at 1068 ft/min 10,000 density altitude:
best rate climb (Vy) 76 climbing at 460 ft/min
Here are the same numbers but for 1050 lb weight:
Best glide 74, sinking 654 ft/min
Best angle climb (Vx) 63
Best rate climb (Vy) 85 climbing at 1528 ft/min 10,000 density altitude:
best rate climb (Vy) 73 climbing at 824 ft/min
Please take all of this with a grain of salt. My ASI is not calibrated
well. I figure these numbers are relatively good for my airplane as it
is currently configured.
For those still building: press on, the results are well worth the
effort.
For those flying XLs, I'm curious if your experience varies much from
mine.
Best wishes to all,
Weston Walker
N454WA
Message 20
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Good point...I just look at all the stains over my wings where I have
slopped fuel from the jerry can...:)
That's the other point, fueling a header is harder than a wing from a
jerry can...
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Frank,
I've got a header tank and the smell of gasoline is never present
because the tank has a sealed gas cap, a tube in from the wings and in
addition to the feed line to the engjne I put in an overflow line that
is routed down and out to the outboard right centerwing rib. This
prevents ever having to smell fuel.
Something to remember if you're still building or about to.
Larry
> If you like the permanent stink of fuel in your cockpit then go right
> ahead..Personally I couldn't bear the thought of the fuel tank in my
> lap!
>
> Frank
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
> All your pumped systems in 43 years have a flooded
> suction
> right...:)..
Yes, but please... 23 years, 43" pipes --- I'm not
THAT old.
>Flooded suction is the same as putting
> the pumps in the
> wing roots
Agreed -- We're talking about the same thing. In the
XL, the pump is shown on the floor (several inches
below tank). I'm not suggesting lifting the fuel to a
firewall mounted pump-- not a good thing.
> Anyway...No a Facet will not pump air...at least not
> very well. It will
> also not pump it against the head of the other pump
> (6psi)..So yes a
> Facet pumping air is no pump at all.
Good to know
> Lets assume for just a moment that the above
> staement is INCORRECT
> (which it isn't). What would happen if one pump is
> pumping fuel anf the
> other is pumping air?...Where would the air
> go?...Answer it gets vented
> out the float bowls in the carbs....Hence no
> problem.
Hmmm. Isn't this the problem we're talking about.
That is, air (or fuel vapor) moving to the carb
INSTEAD OF fuel? But no, it shouldn't happen.
> Are we seeing the elegant simplicity of this system
> or what?...:)
Yes, looks good... you've got my $.02 vote.
Part of the original issue here was whether a selector
"both" position was safe. Can we conclude that your
setup (2 wing pumps with check valves) will overcome
the dangers?? Cy ???
and Jack, the only risk I see with your single pump
and selector valve is that of uncovering a tank outlet
while that tank is online. Guess we're down to
individual risk comfort levels and fuel management.
Maybe we'll hear from some Jabiru/ single pump
drivers....
> Have I ever let a pump run dry....Call me a chicken
> but no I
> haven't....:)
Chicken-ness can be a good thing. How about on the
ground?
--Rico
do not archive
__________________________________
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
Hello Mike,
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
My XL is just about ready for it's permit to fly, unfortunately I have a
wing tank fuel leak which is going to delay things, such is life!
I would like any information you could give me on the auto pilot servo
mounting, a drawing perhaps and any
photo's would be greatly appreciated.
I have to apply with drawings etc to our PFA before I can get permission to
fit the auto pilot.
Have you coupled yours to a GPS?
Thank you once again for you interest,
Norman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Fothergill" <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill
<mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
>
> Hi Norman;
> I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2
> inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4
> inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole
> in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the
> cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons
> and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you
> are interested, I can email pics off list.
> Mike
> CH-601HDS
> UHS Spinners
>
> norman wrote:
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
> >
> > Hello List,
> >
> > Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL?
> > I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting
the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA
here in the UK.
> >
> > Thank you in advance,
> >
> > Norman
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Ah.....No air getting to the carb is NOT the problem we are talking
about.
The problem is air (or worse vapour) getting to the suction (inlet) side
of the PUMP. Air going to the carb is not an issue as it will simply
vent through......If you airlock or vapour lock the SINGLE pump you're a
glider!
See my arguments before, a pump on the floor is subject to pressure loss
because it is being flowed all the way from the tank via small pipe and
bends filters( Dear God I hope not!). So that gravity feed may turn into
a negative head by the time it gets to the single pump. Not the same
thing at all as a pump in each wing root which it is almost impossible
to develop negative head.
Whats more you have two pumps...If you airlock one pump you have the
other wet pump ready to go.
These are very different systems!!!!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Voss
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
> All your pumped systems in 43 years have a flooded suction
> right...:)..
Yes, but please... 23 years, 43" pipes --- I'm not THAT old.
>Flooded suction is the same as putting
> the pumps in the
> wing roots
Agreed -- We're talking about the same thing. In the XL, the pump is
shown on the floor (several inches below tank). I'm not suggesting
lifting the fuel to a firewall mounted pump-- not a good thing.
> Anyway...No a Facet will not pump air...at least not very well. It
> will also not pump it against the head of the other pump (6psi)..So
> yes a Facet pumping air is no pump at all.
Good to know
> Lets assume for just a moment that the above staement is INCORRECT
> (which it isn't). What would happen if one pump is pumping fuel anf
> the other is pumping air?...Where would the air go?...Answer it gets
> vented out the float bowls in the carbs....Hence no problem.
Hmmm. Isn't this the problem we're talking about.
That is, air (or fuel vapor) moving to the carb INSTEAD OF fuel? But
no, it shouldn't happen.
> Are we seeing the elegant simplicity of this system or what?...:)
Yes, looks good... you've got my $.02 vote.
Part of the original issue here was whether a selector "both" position
was safe. Can we conclude that your setup (2 wing pumps with check
valves) will overcome
the dangers?? Cy ???
and Jack, the only risk I see with your single pump and selector valve
is that of uncovering a tank outlet
while that tank is online. Guess we're down to
individual risk comfort levels and fuel management.
Maybe we'll hear from some Jabiru/ single pump drivers....
> Have I ever let a pump run dry....Call me a chicken but no I
> haven't....:)
Chicken-ness can be a good thing. How about on the ground?
--Rico
do not archive
__________________________________
Message 24
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
O yes...sorry, I have allowed a tank to go dry several times on the
ground, the other simply continues pumping.
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Voss
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
> All your pumped systems in 43 years have a flooded suction
> right...:)..
Yes, but please... 23 years, 43" pipes --- I'm not THAT old.
>Flooded suction is the same as putting
> the pumps in the
> wing roots
Agreed -- We're talking about the same thing. In the XL, the pump is
shown on the floor (several inches below tank). I'm not suggesting
lifting the fuel to a firewall mounted pump-- not a good thing.
> Anyway...No a Facet will not pump air...at least not very well. It
> will also not pump it against the head of the other pump (6psi)..So
> yes a Facet pumping air is no pump at all.
Good to know
> Lets assume for just a moment that the above staement is INCORRECT
> (which it isn't). What would happen if one pump is pumping fuel anf
> the other is pumping air?...Where would the air go?...Answer it gets
> vented out the float bowls in the carbs....Hence no problem.
Hmmm. Isn't this the problem we're talking about.
That is, air (or fuel vapor) moving to the carb INSTEAD OF fuel? But
no, it shouldn't happen.
> Are we seeing the elegant simplicity of this system or what?...:)
Yes, looks good... you've got my $.02 vote.
Part of the original issue here was whether a selector "both" position
was safe. Can we conclude that your setup (2 wing pumps with check
valves) will overcome
the dangers?? Cy ???
and Jack, the only risk I see with your single pump and selector valve
is that of uncovering a tank outlet
while that tank is online. Guess we're down to
individual risk comfort levels and fuel management.
Maybe we'll hear from some Jabiru/ single pump drivers....
> Have I ever let a pump run dry....Call me a chicken but no I
> haven't....:)
Chicken-ness can be a good thing. How about on the ground?
--Rico
do not archive
__________________________________
Message 25
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Thought I sent this in an earlier e-mail, but maybe not: I'm pretty sure the Commander
114 has a "both" position on the fuel-selector switch even though it
is a low wing. Anyone know how it's plumbed? Or how it could be flown in Canada?
:)
Cheers
Doug Garrou
-----Original Message-----
Time: 05:37:13 AM PST US
From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Just a quick note to add to this, if you have a low wing plane in Canada
and wanted to have an inspection to get your flight authority you would
not pass with a valve that has a "both" position on it. So if it is
enough of a reason for a whole country to find unacceptable then I would
seriously consider not installing one.
Message 26
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
For a normal gascolator (the ZAC one or a Spruce one) , the pressure from the
fuel pumps (faucet) is not that much to cause a problem... or to the factory
designed fuel system, given that you change the hoses in mantainance work,
We plan to change them every two years. Is routine in our Club for years, since
there were more ultralights. in this planes (UL's) sometimes the hoses are
more esposed to the UV...
Is so little amount of hoses that is not a big cost.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
"Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
No and No....:)
Firstly this idea of gravity fed.....We are talking INCHES, not feet. At
full flow with a 1/4" line I bet the pressure loss will be some inches.
That means the pump will be sucking, i.e not under gravity feed at all!
If the vapour pressure of the fuel (autofuel has a much higher VP than
autogas which is why "Proper" aircraft get away with mechanical pumps,
electric pumps on the firewal with blast tubes and all that) exceeds the
pressure the fuel is exposed to (like when its under suck) it will
boil....Pumps stops pumping.
As to leaks you are much better off with a leak OUT than a leak in...Air
will stop the pump too.
My gascolator has never leaked under pressure.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector
Valves; 601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL
I have a dumb question related to the subject - In the configuration
shown on the drawing, the gascolator gets gravity fed from the tanks,
then the pumps suck from the gascolator.
If you add pressure will it leak? Do you increase the chances of a leak
in the cockpit if you pressurize the gascolator? OK, it was two dumb
questions.
Thanks in advance,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
I'm now officially on wheels!
DO NOT ARCHIVE
"Blair, Heath" wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath"
After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both
selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps
in each wing or a pump in parallel
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
Message 27
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| Subject: | Paper Fuel filter |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Original message:
Back to the pumps.....I have a simple automotive paper filter at the
DISCHARGE of each pump in the wing roots.
Note to Canadian Builders! A paper filter is not allowed in your
homebuilt. Keep this in mind when plumbing your system
paper fuel filter = no paper from inspectors
Mark Townsend
President K/W RAA Chapter
Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L
Osprey 2 serial # 751
www.ch601.org
www.Osprey2.com
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" <perrymorrison@yahoo.com>
My advice would be to not use a central gascolator. I have one anyway
from my previous config but I also added one in each wing root for my
wing tanks.
A gacolator for each wing has a huge advantage in diagnostics. At least
U know which wing has problems. A central gascolator won't tell u.
Imagine you're in the middle of nowhere and have just filled one wing
and found it contaminated. The other has older uncontaminated fuel. You
may be able to get home on that clean wing tank.
Just my .02.
Perry Morrison
Time: 07:10:33 AM PST US
From: Kevin Kinney <kkinney@fuse.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Kevin Kinney <kkinney@fuse.net>
I've thought about the L/R/B switch problem.
I understand the reasons for not running Both while in the air. I'm
not flying
yet, but I plan on using the "Left/Right" method.
But I alos plan on getting a Off/Left/Right/Both fuel valve. But I
plan on using
Both only when tying down and will replacard "Both" to "Ground."
Why? Because I plan on putting the gascolator on the engine side of
the valve.
If you leave the valve on Left, the gascolator will only collect water
from
the left tank. In preflight, you'll have to switch the valve to Right
and drain
the line again.
On top of this, I don't know how long to wait after switching the
valve. How long
does it take water to flow to the lowest point when mixed with gas?
The alternative
to waiting is to drain the gascolator several times to make sure you've
got fuel from the right tank in the drain cup.
How does the list feel about this approach?
Regards,
kk
=====
__________________________
Dr. Perry Morrison
Morrison Associates Pty Ltd
0408892638
perrymorrison@yahoo.com
__________________________
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I guess I'm having difficulty understanding what a gascolator for each
tank gives you over and above the low point drain for the tank??
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Perry
Morrison
Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison"
--> <perrymorrison@yahoo.com>
My advice would be to not use a central gascolator. I have one anyway
from my previous config but I also added one in each wing root for my
wing tanks.
A gacolator for each wing has a huge advantage in diagnostics. At least
U know which wing has problems. A central gascolator won't tell u.
Imagine you're in the middle of nowhere and have just filled one wing
and found it contaminated. The other has older uncontaminated fuel. You
may be able to get home on that clean wing tank.
Just my .02.
Perry Morrison
Time: 07:10:33 AM PST US
From: Kevin Kinney <kkinney@fuse.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Kevin Kinney <kkinney@fuse.net>
I've thought about the L/R/B switch problem.
I understand the reasons for not running Both while in the air. I'm not
flying yet, but I plan on using the "Left/Right" method.
But I alos plan on getting a Off/Left/Right/Both fuel valve. But I plan
on using Both only when tying down and will replacard "Both" to
"Ground."
Why? Because I plan on putting the gascolator on the engine side of the
valve.
If you leave the valve on Left, the gascolator will only collect water
from the left tank. In preflight, you'll have to switch the valve to
Right and drain the line again.
On top of this, I don't know how long to wait after switching the valve.
How long does it take water to flow to the lowest point when mixed with
gas?
The alternative
to waiting is to drain the gascolator several times to make sure you've
got fuel from the right tank in the drain cup.
How does the list feel about this approach?
Regards,
kk
=====
__________________________
Dr. Perry Morrison
Morrison Associates Pty Ltd
0408892638
perrymorrison@yahoo.com
__________________________
Message 30
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Well I might as well add my 2 cents to this conversation. My fuel system
is as follows.
I will be running all 4 tanks in my XL the two outboard tanks will have
low pressure faucet pumps mounted on the outboard side to act as
transfer pumps to the inboard tanks ( this allows choice as to weather
or not I want to use them or leave them empty). Outboard tanks will be
equipt with float type senders while inboard tanks will have capacitance
senders. Inboard tanks will have a high pressure pump in each wing root
feeding up to a 6 way valve in cockpit (3 for feed 3 for return, this
allows return fuel from the EFI to the inboard tank being drawn from).
After selector is the gascolator then a boost pump mounted on firewall
with a separate electrical hook up away from the regular pumps. All
system controls will be mounted in centre console. With LEDS added to
the digital gauges to come on when inboard tanks reach the last 3
gallons.
Mark Townsend
Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L
Osprey 2 serial # 751
www.ch601.org
www.Osprey2.com
Message 31
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Hello,
I'm building a 701.
What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins?
I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer.
Thanks,
Tommy Walker
Alabama
P.S.
If you get bored, you can look in on us at:
http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm
I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time
job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that
IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP
sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you
the new URL.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Cutting holes, slots, etc. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Hello,
I'm building a 701.
What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins?
I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer.
Thanks,
Tommy Walker
Alabama
P.S.
If you get bored, you can look in on us at:
http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm
I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time
job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that
IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP
sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you
the new URL.
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
A fine system but I don't understand the need for the extra redundancy
of the firewall mounted pump?...That is if you DON"T have a both
position on the fuel selector?
Do the wing root mounted hi pressure pumps have a restricted return to
the tanks?..In other words if you momentarily uncovered the inlet to a
pump where does the air go...It can't vent out like it does thru a carb
float bowl and may airlock your pump?
Presumably you will have to coordinated which pump is switched with the
valve otherwise you will dead head the pump...Do you have a regulator to
prevent you damaging the pump or is there a bypass valve in the pumps?
I'm just beginning to think thru the FI system for my RV project.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cdngoose
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Well I might as well add my 2 cents to this conversation. My fuel system
is as follows.
I will be running all 4 tanks in my XL the two outboard tanks will have
low pressure faucet pumps mounted on the outboard side to act as
transfer pumps to the inboard tanks ( this allows choice as to weather
or not I want to use them or leave them empty). Outboard tanks will be
equipt with float type senders while inboard tanks will have capacitance
senders. Inboard tanks will have a high pressure pump in each wing root
feeding up to a 6 way valve in cockpit (3 for feed 3 for return, this
allows return fuel from the EFI to the inboard tank being drawn from).
After selector is the gascolator then a boost pump mounted on firewall
with a separate electrical hook up away from the regular pumps. All
system controls will be mounted in centre console. With LEDS added to
the digital gauges to come on when inboard tanks reach the last 3
gallons.
Mark Townsend
Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L
Osprey 2 serial # 751
www.ch601.org
www.Osprey2.com
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba" <rwehba@cox.net>
ain't cha got any plain ol' pictures?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting holes, slots, etc.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm building a 701.
>
> What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins?
>
> I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tommy Walker
> Alabama
>
> P.S.
> If you get bored, you can look in on us at:
> http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm
>
> I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time
> job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that
> IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP
> sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you
> the new URL.
>
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi Norman;
Yes, in fact it must be coupled to a GPS to operate. That is why these
systems are so low priced these days. They do not need expensive gyros
for reference. I use a Garmin 295.
Photos attached.
Regards
Mike
norman wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
>
> Hello Mike,
> Thank you for taking the time to reply.
>
> My XL is just about ready for it's permit to fly, unfortunately I have a
> wing tank fuel leak which is going to delay things, such is life!
>
> I would like any information you could give me on the auto pilot servo
> mounting, a drawing perhaps and any
> photo's would be greatly appreciated.
> I have to apply with drawings etc to our PFA before I can get permission to
> fit the auto pilot.
>
> Have you coupled yours to a GPS?
>
> Thank you once again for you interest,
>
> Norman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Fothergill" <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill
>
> <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
>
>>Hi Norman;
>>I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2
>>inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4
>>inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole
>>in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the
>>cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons
>>and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you
>>are interested, I can email pics off list.
>>Mike
>>CH-601HDS
>>UHS Spinners
>>
>>norman wrote:
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
>>>
>>>Hello List,
>>>
>>>Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL?
>>>I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting
>>
> the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA
> here in the UK.
>
>>>Thank you in advance,
>>>
>>>Norman
>>>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick <n701rr@yahoo.com>
Tommy,
I use several ways depending on what needs to be done. BUT
1. If its cutting a slot, I sue a #30 drill bit to rough out the slot then I clean
it up with a Drimel tool with disk grinder wheel.
2. Trimming off large portions of skin I score it with a box knife then peel it
like a sardine can...carefully....or use snips...
Tommy Walker <twalker@cableone.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker"
Hello,
I'm building a 701.
What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins?
I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer.
Thanks,
Tommy Walker
Alabama
P.S.
If you get bored, you can look in on us at:
http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm
I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time
job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that
IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP
sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you
the new URL.
Rick
Orlando, FL
http://www.geocities.com/n701rr/index.html
---------------------------------
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
Tommy : I found that a unibit or step drill works best for drilling holes from
3/16 to 1". It will give you a very smooth bore. For cutting slots drill each
end and depending on the slot size use a shear or a dremel tool. Jack in Clovis
CA
Tommy Walker <twalker@cableone.net> wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy
Walker"
Hello,
I'm building a 701.
What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins?
I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer.
Thanks,
Tommy Walker
Alabama
P.S.
If you get bored, you can look in on us at:
http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm
I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time
job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that
IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP
sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you
the new URL.
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
You're absolutely right Frank, but if you go to Lowe's and purchase an OSHA
approved red steel fuel-can shaped like a drum and has a manually-operated
sprung cover and
a 90-degree yellow plastic funnel attached, you'd not have to spill
anything. The 5-gal can costs
about $29.00. I bought two. They're also stable in a car. Also I use a
10-ft wire with gator-clips each end
to attach to the gas can handle and to the 601 belly angle when filling.
Much better than the plastic jugs that aren't shaped well to even stand up
in a moving vehicle
and the funnels on them are awkward at best.
Larry
> Good point...I just look at all the stains over my wings where I have
> slopped fuel from the jerry can...:)
>
> That's the other point, fueling a header is harder than a wing from a
> jerry can...
>
> Frank
Message 39
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| Subject: | Cutting holes, slots, etc. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" <mark.stauffer@cablespeed.com>
Tommy,
For larger holes I use a fly cutter and for the smaller ones (up to 1 3/8) I
use three different Unibits. Both methods work very well. The initial cost
may be a bit high but you'll have them for life and they can be used for
other projects around the shop.
What part of Alabama? I grew up in Birmingham.
Do Not Archive
Mark Stauffer
601XL - Working on fuselage.
Odenton, MD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Walker
Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting holes, slots, etc.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Hello,
I'm building a 701.
What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins?
I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer.
Thanks,
Tommy Walker
Alabama
P.S.
If you get bored, you can look in on us at:
http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm
I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time
job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that
IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP
sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you
the new URL.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Building a 701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <lrm@isp.com>
Small holes up to an inch, use a unibit, larger, use a hole saw, very
slowly, slots, drill holes in the four corners and use shears. Larry
N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Building a 701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm building a 701.
>
> What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins?
>
> I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tommy Walker
> Alabama
>
> P.S.
> If you get bored, you can look in on us at:
> http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm
>
> I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time
> job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that
> IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP
> sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you
> the new URL.
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Jeff, Something to look at on the rudder and cable tension. The rudder
peddles have to be at the same angle as the pipe shaft for the front landing gear.
Mine were a bit back and a problem arose. When the gear shaft was all the way
down (before engine weight, etc) I attached and adjusted the rudder cables.
All was well. Then the gear traveled north a bit with the extra weight. No
problem there. Only thing was the rudder cables became noticeably slack. I
then had to adjust the steering rods so that the peddles were the same angle so
that the travel of the gear shaft upward did not effect the cable tension.
The hope is that without any weight (as in flight) the shaft returns south and
the cables are not over tight. I guess this is in the plans somewhere (as per
Nick), but dammed if I saw it, Best regards, Bill of Georgia
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Converting from single to dual control sticks? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Craig, I have duels in my XL and I studied the difference in the plans a
great deal before making the switch. ZAC sells everything you need bolt on in
the
kit. Only thing hard is the nuts that have to be held and tightened inside
the main spar (wings have to be off) You have to make a special tool for the
job. The other thing is the rear bracket that the control rod turns in. ZAC
pre-drills to two bolt holes (for some dammed reason) and trying to align them
with
the holes you already have is near impossible. If you order the kit tell ZAC
not to drill them dammed holes. The other thing about the duels is the ZAC
fuel valve controls have to be changed. I wrote a bunch in the thread last
month about the problem and the fix. Last thing is you. If you are a big fat
legged fellow there may be a comfort question. Not much room once the stick is
between them, Best regards, Bill of Georgia
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Converting from single to dual control sticks? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Bill, I was the second to order and receive and No... ZAC would not take a
return on the single parts. Anyone interested in making me an offer for the
center control system ? Regards, Bill of Georgia
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Flight Training |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Clyde, Can you post the 14 locations and a POC for those training sights?
Regards, Bill of Georgia
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
Hello Mike,
Sorry but I could not see any photo's attached to your e-mail.
I have a Skymap IIIc GPS to couple to the autopilot once installed.
Thank you in advance,
Norman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Fothergill" <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill
<mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
>
> Hi Norman;
> Yes, in fact it must be coupled to a GPS to operate. That is why these
> systems are so low priced these days. They do not need expensive gyros
> for reference. I use a Garmin 295.
> Photos attached.
> Regards
> Mike
>
> norman wrote:
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
> >
> > Hello Mike,
> > Thank you for taking the time to reply.
> >
> > My XL is just about ready for it's permit to fly, unfortunately I have a
> > wing tank fuel leak which is going to delay things, such is life!
> >
> > I would like any information you could give me on the auto pilot servo
> > mounting, a drawing perhaps and any
> > photo's would be greatly appreciated.
> > I have to apply with drawings etc to our PFA before I can get permission
to
> > fit the auto pilot.
> >
> > Have you coupled yours to a GPS?
> >
> > Thank you once again for you interest,
> >
> > Norman
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Fothergill" <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
> > To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill
> >
> > <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
> >
> >>Hi Norman;
> >>I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2
> >>inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4
> >>inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole
> >>in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the
> >>cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons
> >>and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you
> >>are interested, I can email pics off list.
> >>Mike
> >>CH-601HDS
> >>UHS Spinners
> >>
> >>norman wrote:
> >>
> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
> >>>
> >>>Hello List,
> >>>
> >>>Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL?
> >>>I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting
> >>
> > the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our
PFA
> > here in the UK.
> >
> >>>Thank you in advance,
> >>>
> >>>Norman
> >>>.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Building a 701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
An 1/8" chain saw file does a good job cutting narrow slots in the middle of
a sheet or other places where it's hard to use snips. It's a little tricky
to keep it going strait but with a little practice you can get good results.
I cut several large holes using a circle cutter (fly cutter) chucked into a
brace. This cutter should also work in a drill press running very slowly.
Don't try it in an electric hand drill, that can get dangerous.
If you want to cut a chunk of sheet aluminum off along a straight line, you
can use a utility knife to score it and then put the score line along the
edge of a work table and clamp a board on top then you can break it off
clean. You'll still have a sharp edge to file off but it comes out a lot
straighter and cleaner than you can get with snips.
on 1/24/05 6:05 PM, Tommy Walker at twalker@cableone.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm building a 701.
>
> What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins?
>
> I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer.
>
> Thanks,
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In Phase I testing.
do not archive.
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