---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/24/05: 46 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:58 AM - Re: Paint Ball Gunnery (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 2. 06:54 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Blair, Heath) 3. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 4. 07:27 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Carl Bertrand) 5. 07:30 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 6. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (N5SL) 7. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 8. 08:01 AM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (Mike Fothergill) 9. 08:44 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Rico Voss) 10. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (N5SL) 11. 08:58 AM - Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Andrew Hinsdale) 12. 09:08 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 13. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 14. 09:14 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 09:40 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Joemotis@aol.com) 16. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Bill Steer) 17. 10:16 AM - Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review (Weston and Judy Walker) 18. 10:39 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Larry McFarland) 19. 10:51 AM - Re: Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 20. 10:57 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 21. 11:28 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Rico Voss) 22. 11:36 AM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (norman) 23. 11:49 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 24. 11:50 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 25. 11:52 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Garrou, Douglas) 26. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Gary Gower) 27. 01:53 PM - Paper Fuel filter (Cdngoose) 28. 02:39 PM - Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; (Dr. Perry Morrison) 29. 02:54 PM - Re: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 30. 02:55 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Cdngoose) 31. 03:06 PM - Building a 701 (Tommy Walker) 32. 03:07 PM - Cutting holes, slots, etc. (Tommy Walker) 33. 03:19 PM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 34. 04:19 PM - Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. (ron wehba) 35. 04:19 PM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (Mike Fothergill) 36. 04:24 PM - Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. (Rick) 37. 04:51 PM - Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. (Jack Russell) 38. 04:52 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? (Larry McFarland) 39. 05:14 PM - Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. (Mark Stauffer) 40. 07:13 PM - Re: Building a 701 (Larry Martin) 41. 08:12 PM - Re: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 42. 08:27 PM - Re: Converting from single to dual control sticks? (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 43. 08:30 PM - Re: Converting from single to dual control sticks? (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 44. 08:34 PM - Re: CH601XL Flight Training (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 45. 09:23 PM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (norman) 46. 10:07 PM - Re: Building a 701 (Bryan Martin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:59 AM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint Ball Gunnery --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:02:29 AM Central Standard Time, bryanmmartin@comcast.net writes: Some of those paintball guns fire their ammo at over 300 ft/sec. That's over 200 mph. And then add the speed of the plane...... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:23 AM PST US From: "Blair, Heath" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath" After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps in each wing or a pump in parallel to the mechanical like the drawing shows. I am not sure how an RV or a Pitts is set up for inverted flight but it would be nice to have that warm and fuzzy feeling your getting fuel when you roll. Thanks for all the thoughts, ideas, and opinions. Heath ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:39 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Getting fuel when you roll is the least of your concerns...I damaged my crank bearings by going negative G...No oil...Besides, the engine will quit anyway because if you have carbs they don't work upside down. Rolls can easily be done in a 601 and keeping positve G, but it is hard to keep altitude. These are not the most natural aerobatic airplanes....:) You don't say what engine you got but if it has Bing carbs the best way hydraulically speaking is a Facet (use the 406 pumps not the 405's which don't make enough pressure at full throttle) at the wing root...With one in each wing root you don't need a selector, nor is it desirable. I have been flying with this setup for 351 hours and it works like a charm. Remember to feed each fuel pump from a seperat electrial source that are electrically isolated from each other. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Blair, Heath Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath" --> After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps in each wing or a pump in parallel to the mechanical like the drawing shows. I am not sure how an RV or a Pitts is set up for inverted flight but it would be nice to have that warm and fuzzy feeling your getting fuel when you roll. Thanks for all the thoughts, ideas, and opinions. Heath ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:54 AM PST US From: "Carl Bertrand" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Bertrand" I'm a 701 guy so I comment on this topic with some of trepidation. I built in 1994 and as a first time builder followed the plans which called for a nose tank and wing tanks (option). This system worked well except for large changes in CofG depending on how much fuel was in the nose tank. In the extreme, a power off landing became very difficult on floats. I also never liked the idea of a lot of fuel in the cockpit, close to the engine and all those electrical connections behind the IP. I wanted to remove the nose tank but was concerned about feeding directly from the wings for fear of one or both outlet becoming uncovered when tanks get low. I finally opted for a small feed/ collector in the rear fuselage that holds 30 minutes of fuel (2 gallons). This is the best mod I've made and have recommended the change to many of my friends. I know that high and low wing a/c are a different breed but I can't help but think that a similar set up with fuel pumps in a low wing bird may be an answer to some of the concerns expressed recently on the list. As for fuel selectors, I don't have one. I've opted for three valves. One on the lower instrument panel to shut all fuel to the engine compartment, and one at each wing root to control wing fuel feed. With this system I can safely fly with less than a gallon of fuel left in the a/c (this is not something I do routinely) . The monitoring and warning devices are such that I have total visibility and control of fuel management. Assuming I'm still breathing, I should not run out of fuel due to lack of information. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Put the pumps in the right place (wing roots) and these problems go away. If you want to stop with half empty tanks (and I used to before I fitted my fuel flow meter) you effectively waste half the range, carry extra weight etc. Think about it,...If ever your engine splutters you switch the other pump on...You don't even need to switch the first one off...they engine will fire right up. If you are sucking with a single pump it might just suck air when you switch. That added to vapour lock risks and in my mind why take the risk...do it the right way...PUMPS IN THE WING ROOTS....AUTOFUEL IS NOT AVGAS! Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Shuck Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Shuck" Seems to me that Fuel Management will prevent any problems. I don't want to find out if any of you that say we will suck air on "both" are correct. I plan on switching to left or right as soon as I reach half full in one tank. Then I'll start planning my next fuel stop. ----- Original Message ----- From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > Let's try again. You have the valve on both. It sucks air! The engine > quits.The trees are getting closer. > > Which tank do you select to restore power? > > You life will depend on it. Which one? Select the wrong one and it is all > over. But which one? Gages are notoriously in accurate. Quick! How are > you > going to pick the tank that still has gas? Which ever one you pick, there > will still be a moment where the lines are purging and the engine will not > develop power. For that brief moment you could have doubts and then switch > to the dry tank. Could ruin your entire day and your airplane. > > This will not happen if you run a tank dry. You know it is dry and so you > select the other tank. The engine will run. Much simpler! > > Fuel management problems are statistically the #1 lost of power problem. > KISS. > > Cy Galley > EAA Safety Programs Editor > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Russell" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; > 601XL > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell >> >> cy: You miss my point here. The valve has nothing to do with sucking air. > If you have a left/right valve and you run dry in the tank your on you > will > suck air just the same. You will still have to switch to the other. My > point > is that if you have a both valve and one tank runs dry and "Sucks air" you > will still need to switch to the left or right tank (which ever hopefully > has fuel) and then kick yourself for calling it that close to start with. >> Jack in Do not archive Clovis cA >> >> cgalley wrote: >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" >> >> I thought you understood the air sucking. If you are sucking fuel from > both >> tanks, You will suck air from the empty tank REGARDLESS of the amount of > gas >> in the other tank. You can not suck fuel if one of the tanks is empty not >> even if the other tank is full from a both valve setting. >> >> Now with some systems, once you suck air, it takes a while to purge the >> system of the air. The momentary loss of power may happen at the most >> inopportune time. i.e... at take off when you are over the trees or short > of >> the runway. >> >> There should be no argument not to build potential safety hazards. > Aviation >> is not very forgiving when it comes to mistakes. Why build them in? >> >> Cy Galley - Chair, >> AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair >> A Service Project of Chapter 75 >> EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC >> EAA Sport Pilot >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jack Russell" >> To: >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; > 601XL >> >> >> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell >> > >> > I know we have gone through this many times before but I don't feel >> > that >> there can be too much discussion on safety! One thing I don't understand > is >> the statement" with a both you will suck air from the empty tank". > Wouldn't >> you still suck air from that empty tank if you had a left/right valve on >> that tanks position until you switched? Same thing with a both. When a > tank >> goes empty you will have to switch from both to which ever has a little > fuel >> left. This brings up another point. In the last 10 years I have never run > my >> tanks lower that 1/4 and most of the time I fill up after 2hrs fly time. > As >> far as the fuel pumps on the wings, why do most low wings hang them low >> on >> the firewall if there is such a vapour lock problem? I am absolutely no >> expert on this subject and am not trying to justify my setup ( and still > may >> change the whole setup before the first flight) ,but after flying in both >> Cessnas and Pipers, I prefer to make the fuel system as simple as > possible. >> Both valve >> > , one >> > elect pump, one gascolator, one engine. Jack >> > cgalley wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: >> "cgalley" >> > >> > There is a reason that you list for NOT having a both with a single > pump. >> > You will suck air from an empty tank. >> > >> > Because of unbalanced flow one tank will always empty first creating >> > the >> air >> > sucking problem IF you have both on line. >> > >> > If your solution is fool proof, don't you think low wing certified >> > plane >> > would have been using it? >> > >> > The first thing I did with my Bellanca was to run out of fuel because I >> had >> > been flying a Cessna. After I switched tanks, the noise resumed but I >> > learned to check for fullest tank before I enter the traffic pattern so >> the >> > engine didn't get quiet due to unporting in a turn. >> > >> > For What it worth. Not all high wings are approved for both tank >> operations! >> > >> > Cy Galley >> > EAA Safety Programs Editor >> > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Jack Russell" >> > To: >> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; >> 601XL >> > >> > >> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell >> > > >> > > >> > > Heath: There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject a while > back. >> > Check the archives. I still don't have a definite answer and won't >> > until > I >> > fly my XL with a right left both and one facet fuel pump in front of > that. >> > Some say that you can't have a "both" in a low wing because in a turn > the >> > low wing with a low fuel level will send air to your pump and since air > is >> > easier to push than fuel the other tank won't supply. I have checked > with >> my >> > tech adviser and several A&P's and they don't think it is a problem. >> > Production low wings don't have a "both". Some of the builders have >> > done >> the >> > fuel pump in each wing thing but I plan on running mine the way I have > it >> > set up. I think that since the tanks set 4 ribs "up" in the wing that I >> will >> > have some head pressure from the tank. This I will be able to test when > I >> > start to fill with fuel. I don't think it will be a problem with the > tanks >> > full and I plan on testing the turn theory with low tanks about 4000' >> above >> > the airport duri >> > > ng the >> > > test flight phase. If I find a problem I can block off the "both" >> placard >> > on the valve and turn it into a left right. Whatever you decide to do, >> keep >> > in mind that fuel systems is the #1 problem in home builts for engine >> > failure. Jack in Clovis Ca >> > > >> > > >> > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA >> > > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 >> > > Progress update at: >> > > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > Jack Russell -Clovis CA >> > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 >> > Progress update at: >> > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html >> > >> > >> >> >> Jack Russell -Clovis CA >> 601 XL Jabiru 3300 >> Progress update at: >> http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:43 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL I have a dumb question related to the subject - In the configuration shown on the drawing, the gascolator gets gravity fed from the tanks, then the pumps suck from the gascolator. If you add pressure will it leak? Do you increase the chances of a leak in the cockpit if you pressurize the gascolator? OK, it was two dumb questions. Thanks in advance, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com I'm now officially on wheels! DO NOT ARCHIVE "Blair, Heath" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath" After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps in each wing or a pump in parallel --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:47 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" No and No....:) Firstly this idea of gravity fed.....We are talking INCHES, not feet. At full flow with a 1/4" line I bet the pressure loss will be some inches. That means the pump will be sucking, i.e not under gravity feed at all! If the vapour pressure of the fuel (autofuel has a much higher VP than autogas which is why "Proper" aircraft get away with mechanical pumps, electric pumps on the firewal with blast tubes and all that) exceeds the pressure the fuel is exposed to (like when its under suck) it will boil....Pumps stops pumping. As to leaks you are much better off with a leak OUT than a leak in...Air will stop the pump too. My gascolator has never leaked under pressure. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL I have a dumb question related to the subject - In the configuration shown on the drawing, the gascolator gets gravity fed from the tanks, then the pumps suck from the gascolator. If you add pressure will it leak? Do you increase the chances of a leak in the cockpit if you pressurize the gascolator? OK, it was two dumb questions. Thanks in advance, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com I'm now officially on wheels! DO NOT ARCHIVE "Blair, Heath" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath" After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps in each wing or a pump in parallel --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:14 AM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill Hi Norman; I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2 inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4 inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you are interested, I can email pics off list. Mike CH-601HDS UHS Spinners norman wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" > > Hello List, > > Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL? > I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA here in the UK. > > Thank you in advance, > > Norman > . > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:30 AM PST US From: Rico Voss Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss Interesting topic, indeed. I think we'd all agree that people who take to the air should be smart enough to avoid running out of gas. But suppose the unexpected happens: failed gauge, inattentive pilot, dry tank, quiet approaching..... Frank, in your setup (2 wing pumps into common line, right?), one pump will be pumping air, the other fuel. My gut feeling tells me that the fuel will win out and keep going to the engine. [I dont think these facet pumps are designed to pump air under any pressure...] Has anyone ever tested this scenario ?? Frank, have you ever let a tank go dry with both pumps running? This is the same as a "both" position but without the selector, isn't it? Or do you have left/right cutoffs? And, is it necessary to add the check valves (in the Joe Motis scheme), or will the facet pumps act as check valves?? Sorry to throw more questions, but like Jack said, this is an important one to understand. --Rico, XL/3300. --low time pilot, but 23 years pumping fluids thru 43" pipes with 3600hp pumps. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:33 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Thank you Frank! I don't feel so dumb anymore. It is a very tight fit between my ribs, but I'll find a way to get a pump in there. "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" No and No....:) DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:21 AM PST US From: Andrew Hinsdale Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew Hinsdale Hello Listers Fascinating discussion on fuel pumps, valves, and tanks. Everyone seems to have their own ideas - isn't homebuilding great? Kinda makes me inclined to use a header tank. Just for a baseline, though, for those of us who do not own the plans, what fuel system topology does ZAC recommend? Andy Hinsdale *DO NOT ARCHIVE* __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" All your pumped systems in 43 years have a flooded suction right...:)...Flooded suction is the same as putting the pumps in the wing roots...Us engineers have been doing this for the last 100 years and for good reason...:) Anyway...No a Facet will not pump air...at least not very well. It will also not pump it against the head of the other pump (6psi)..So yes a Facet pumping air is no pump at all. Lets assume for just a moment that the above staement is INCORRECT (which it isn't). What would happen if one pump is pumping fuel anf the other is pumping air?...Where would the air go?...Answer it gets vented out the float bowls in the carbs....Hence no problem. Are we seeing the elegant simplicity of this system or what?...:) The common point in my system is the gascolator which I have positioned just ahead of the spar and the drain valve pokes out the bottom of the fuse. The discharge from the gascolator goes to the on-off valve, then to the fuel flow transducer all in the cockpit between the rudder cables. Back to the pumps.....I have a simple automotive paper filter at the DISCHARGE of each pump in the wing roots. Unfortunatly if you use a 106 (or 105, but don't use that one) you will need a check valve for each pump. I ran without a check vlave for about 50 hours but the contents of the tank do get transferred to the non running tank. I believe there is a Facet pump with a proper check valve built in but I'm not sure whaich one that is. Have I ever let a pump run dry....Call me a chicken but no I haven't....:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Voss Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss Interesting topic, indeed. I think we'd all agree that people who take to the air should be smart enough to avoid running out of gas. But suppose the unexpected happens: failed gauge, inattentive pilot, dry tank, quiet approaching..... Frank, in your setup (2 wing pumps into common line, right?), one pump will be pumping air, the other fuel. My gut feeling tells me that the fuel will win out and keep going to the engine. [I dont think these facet pumps are designed to pump air under any pressure...] Has anyone ever tested this scenario ?? Frank, have you ever let a tank go dry with both pumps running? This is the same as a "both" position but without the selector, isn't it? Or do you have left/right cutoffs? And, is it necessary to add the check valves (in the Joe Motis scheme), or will the facet pumps act as check valves?? Sorry to throw more questions, but like Jack said, this is an important one to understand. --Rico, XL/3300. --low time pilot, but 23 years pumping fluids thru 43" pipes with 3600hp pumps. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:13 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" It's a little cozy but it will fit. I put mine bolted thru the floor between the outboard ribs of the center wing. By the way I am considering the same setup with hi pressure pumps for my fuel injected RV7, including buying a ZAC gascolator...I assume they still use the thing fabricated out of 1/8th alu strips made into a box.....Two inlet ports one discharge, 1/4" NPT threads...Can anyone tell me?? Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Thank you Frank! I don't feel so dumb anymore. It is a very tight fit between my ribs, but I'll find a way to get a pump in there. "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" No and No....:) DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" If you like the permanent stink of fuel in your cockpit then go right ahead..Personally I couldn't bear the thought of the fuel tank in my lap! Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Hinsdale Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew Hinsdale Hello Listers Fascinating discussion on fuel pumps, valves, and tanks. Everyone seems to have their own ideas - isn't homebuilding great? Kinda makes me inclined to use a header tank. Just for a baseline, though, for those of us who do not own the plans, what fuel system topology does ZAC recommend? Andy Hinsdale *DO NOT ARCHIVE* __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:21 AM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com Hi Mark The Facet pump is the electric fuel pump supplied by ZAC. They come in a few different g.p.m. ratings and are similar in size and appearence to a door bell transformer. I will e mail you a pic of my mount in the wing ( off list) in a day or three. Joe Motis 601 XL do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:51 AM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" I put my pumps in the same place - between the two outer ribs in the center wing. I built a small bracket out of "L" angle, riveted to each rib and with the fuel pump sitting on a heavier "L" angle that goes between the ribs. My plane is a 601HD, but there's plenty of space there for the pumps. The plumbing from the pumps is aluminum tubing that runs through the rib lightening holes, into the cabin, through shutoff and check valves, and into the gascolator. Aluminum line then goes forward from the gascolator. No header tank. Bill > > It's a little cozy but it will fit. I put mine bolted thru the floor > between the outboard ribs of the center wing. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:54 AM PST US From: "Weston and Judy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy Walker" I've been flying my Jabiru 3300 powered Zenith 601XL for one year. Here is a summary of my experience. Airframe built from a kit closely following Zenith's plans. Standard tanks only (24 gallons total). No baggage in wings. Center-stick. Nosewheel. 2.5 years build time. 1200 hours logged in building. Engine S/N is 427. FWF kit was from Pete at Jabiru USA; but it is not the current kit they are selling for the 601XL. My kit had no prop extension; rubber hose with worm-gear clamps for oil lines; suspect oil cooler as supplied from Jabiru, Australia (mine has had no leaks nor problems). Prop is wood/composite from GT in Italy. Panel is minimal IFR equipped with steam flight instruments (I'd do it differently today with what's available) and a Grand Rapids EIS monitoring CHT on all 6 cylinders. Empty weight (including oil) is 736 lbs. Empty C/G is at 295 mm. C/G is OK except with full passenger/baggage load and nearly empty tanks; then if not careful I can exceed the rear limit. No paint. For this past Christmas I treated myself to the equipment/supplies for polishing. I've just started (half a wing) and I'm very please with the results. Check the archives for more information; or see http://www.perfectpolish.com/Index.htm. I'll paint the fiberglass and some trim. I've flown about 122 hours. 331 landings. About 38 hours cross country. Longest trip was about 12.4 hours over 3 days from San Antonio, Texas, to Ogden, Utah (we moved last summer, courtesy of the US Air Force). I flew as high as 12,000 MSL on this trip, though much of my cruise was lower. Fuel system: There's been a lot of discussion on the list about this. I followed the original Zenith plans that I bought in August 2001. From wing tank, down hill through an on/off valve t'd into the gascolator in the floor just in front of the wing spar; then forward to the electric boost pump also mounted on the floor; then up and through the firewall to the mechanical pump on the engine. I've also got a fuel pressure sender in-line between mechanical pump and carby. The fuel is down hill with some head pressure all the way to the boost pump that I only use on take-off and landing. From there it is uphill to the mechanical pump. So, I'm breaking the rule regarding a pump (the engine-mounted mechanical one) sucking fuel. I've used 100LL only. I've not had any problem. If I ever did have a hiccup, would turning the electric boost pump on take care of it? Hopefully I'll never have the chance to find out. I usually leave both fuel valves on. The fuel burn is fairly even from the two tanks, unless I'm doing a lot of maneuvering. When I have had imbalances, I just shut one valve off for a while in cruise. I've never run a tank lower than a couple of gallons. Since break-in was finished, I've used Aeroshell 100plus (in Texas) and 15W-50 (in Utah). Very little oil burn. I've cut all the filters open. I never saw a thing. However at the last oil change, I washed the paper element in avgas and used a magnet to collect a very small bit of ferrous material. I've not sent any samples for oil analysis. Has anyone else? I like the plane. It is comfortable, easy to fly, relatively fast. My fuel burn is too high (more on this later), which results in shorter legs than I would like on my long cross countries. I've got about 3.5 hours in the tanks. I always try to land with an hour in the tanks. Sometimes, especially with a head wind, I've wished for more time than 2.5 hours. But that hasn't been a problem often. If I wasn't so heavy (6'2" and 235 lbs), and have a teenage son is now bigger and taller, the extra tanks would be nice occasionally. However, I've got about the best compromise for our mission profile. I've had no in-flight emergencies. No problems. Nothing broken or bent. (See the archives about one year ago for my too-exciting first flight--significantly heavy left wing.) Now for some numbers. Typically I cruise at 2850 rpms and about 110 knots TAS (=127mph). My airspeed indicator is off (reads high), so all my numbers are a bit suspect. However, the 110 knot cruise has been roughly verified on many occasions with GPS (using reciprocal headings for dealing with winds). Fuel burn at cruise is about 7 gallons an hour. In my view this is too high. Also EGTs seem a bit low. Sometime I intend to modify my carby as Jabiru is now offering/recommending. The following are averages from about 20 flights from April through December (all after the flight-testing and engine break-in). All readings were taken at 2850 RPMs. Oil Temp 193 Oil Pressure 46 Fuel Pressure 3.4 Volts 14.3 Vacuum Pressure 5.4 EGT Cyl 5 1255 EGT Cyl 6 1134 CHT Cyl 1 215 CHT Cyl 2 251 CHT Cyl 3 253 CHT Cyl 4 214 CHT Cyl 5 274 CHT Cyl 6 253 During the test flying, I had greater variance in the CHTs. I added additional deflector/baffles above cylinders 3-4 to even them up. I've never tried addressing the EGT difference. During the test flying period, I tried doing some of the flight tests that I read about in back issues of Sport Aviation. After I was through with the test period, I found this article on Avweb that helped me better manipulate and extrapolate my test data: http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/182410-1.html Here are some of the results, all for a 1320 lb weight, sea level density altitude, and in knots. Best glide 83, sinking 733 ft/min Best angle climb (Vx) 71 Best rate climb (Vy) 87 climbing at 1068 ft/min 10,000 density altitude: best rate climb (Vy) 76 climbing at 460 ft/min Here are the same numbers but for 1050 lb weight: Best glide 74, sinking 654 ft/min Best angle climb (Vx) 63 Best rate climb (Vy) 85 climbing at 1528 ft/min 10,000 density altitude: best rate climb (Vy) 73 climbing at 824 ft/min Please take all of this with a grain of salt. My ASI is not calibrated well. I figure these numbers are relatively good for my airplane as it is currently configured. For those still building: press on, the results are well worth the effort. For those flying XLs, I'm curious if your experience varies much from mine. Best wishes to all, Weston Walker N454WA ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:07 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Frank, I've got a header tank and the smell of gasoline is never present because the tank has a sealed gas cap, a tube in from the wings and in addition to the feed line to the engjne I put in an overflow line that is routed down and out to the outboard right centerwing rib. This prevents ever having to smell fuel. Something to remember if you're still building or about to. Larry > If you like the permanent stink of fuel in your cockpit then go right > ahead..Personally I couldn't bear the thought of the fuel tank in my > lap! > > Frank ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" You should be ok if you continue to use Avgas. But if you suck a tank dry and run "Both" you may not get it restarted. If you use Mogas I would recommend buying a second pump and mounting both in the wing roots. I have been told with this engine you have to keep the mechanical pump...I do not know why so have to go on faith on that one. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weston and Judy Walker Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith 601XL/Jabiru 3300 One-year Review --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy Walker" --> I've been flying my Jabiru 3300 powered Zenith 601XL for one year. Here is a summary of my experience. Airframe built from a kit closely following Zenith's plans. Standard tanks only (24 gallons total). No baggage in wings. Center-stick. Nosewheel. 2.5 years build time. 1200 hours logged in building. Engine S/N is 427. FWF kit was from Pete at Jabiru USA; but it is not the current kit they are selling for the 601XL. My kit had no prop extension; rubber hose with worm-gear clamps for oil lines; suspect oil cooler as supplied from Jabiru, Australia (mine has had no leaks nor problems). Prop is wood/composite from GT in Italy. Panel is minimal IFR equipped with steam flight instruments (I'd do it differently today with what's available) and a Grand Rapids EIS monitoring CHT on all 6 cylinders. Empty weight (including oil) is 736 lbs. Empty C/G is at 295 mm. C/G is OK except with full passenger/baggage load and nearly empty tanks; then if not careful I can exceed the rear limit. No paint. For this past Christmas I treated myself to the equipment/supplies for polishing. I've just started (half a wing) and I'm very please with the results. Check the archives for more information; or see http://www.perfectpolish.com/Index.htm. I'll paint the fiberglass and some trim. I've flown about 122 hours. 331 landings. About 38 hours cross country. Longest trip was about 12.4 hours over 3 days from San Antonio, Texas, to Ogden, Utah (we moved last summer, courtesy of the US Air Force). I flew as high as 12,000 MSL on this trip, though much of my cruise was lower. Fuel system: There's been a lot of discussion on the list about this. I followed the original Zenith plans that I bought in August 2001. From wing tank, down hill through an on/off valve t'd into the gascolator in the floor just in front of the wing spar; then forward to the electric boost pump also mounted on the floor; then up and through the firewall to the mechanical pump on the engine. I've also got a fuel pressure sender in-line between mechanical pump and carby. The fuel is down hill with some head pressure all the way to the boost pump that I only use on take-off and landing. From there it is uphill to the mechanical pump. So, I'm breaking the rule regarding a pump (the engine-mounted mechanical one) sucking fuel. I've used 100LL only. I've not had any problem. If I ever did have a hiccup, would turning the electric boost pump on take care of it? Hopefully I'll never have the chance to find out. I usually leave both fuel valves on. The fuel burn is fairly even from the two tanks, unless I'm doing a lot of maneuvering. When I have had imbalances, I just shut one valve off for a while in cruise. I've never run a tank lower than a couple of gallons. Since break-in was finished, I've used Aeroshell 100plus (in Texas) and 15W-50 (in Utah). Very little oil burn. I've cut all the filters open. I never saw a thing. However at the last oil change, I washed the paper element in avgas and used a magnet to collect a very small bit of ferrous material. I've not sent any samples for oil analysis. Has anyone else? I like the plane. It is comfortable, easy to fly, relatively fast. My fuel burn is too high (more on this later), which results in shorter legs than I would like on my long cross countries. I've got about 3.5 hours in the tanks. I always try to land with an hour in the tanks. Sometimes, especially with a head wind, I've wished for more time than 2.5 hours. But that hasn't been a problem often. If I wasn't so heavy (6'2" and 235 lbs), and have a teenage son is now bigger and taller, the extra tanks would be nice occasionally. However, I've got about the best compromise for our mission profile. I've had no in-flight emergencies. No problems. Nothing broken or bent. (See the archives about one year ago for my too-exciting first flight--significantly heavy left wing.) Now for some numbers. Typically I cruise at 2850 rpms and about 110 knots TAS (=127mph). My airspeed indicator is off (reads high), so all my numbers are a bit suspect. However, the 110 knot cruise has been roughly verified on many occasions with GPS (using reciprocal headings for dealing with winds). Fuel burn at cruise is about 7 gallons an hour. In my view this is too high. Also EGTs seem a bit low. Sometime I intend to modify my carby as Jabiru is now offering/recommending. The following are averages from about 20 flights from April through December (all after the flight-testing and engine break-in). All readings were taken at 2850 RPMs. Oil Temp 193 Oil Pressure 46 Fuel Pressure 3.4 Volts 14.3 Vacuum Pressure 5.4 EGT Cyl 5 1255 EGT Cyl 6 1134 CHT Cyl 1 215 CHT Cyl 2 251 CHT Cyl 3 253 CHT Cyl 4 214 CHT Cyl 5 274 CHT Cyl 6 253 During the test flying, I had greater variance in the CHTs. I added additional deflector/baffles above cylinders 3-4 to even them up. I've never tried addressing the EGT difference. During the test flying period, I tried doing some of the flight tests that I read about in back issues of Sport Aviation. After I was through with the test period, I found this article on Avweb that helped me better manipulate and extrapolate my test data: http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/182410-1.html Here are some of the results, all for a 1320 lb weight, sea level density altitude, and in knots. Best glide 83, sinking 733 ft/min Best angle climb (Vx) 71 Best rate climb (Vy) 87 climbing at 1068 ft/min 10,000 density altitude: best rate climb (Vy) 76 climbing at 460 ft/min Here are the same numbers but for 1050 lb weight: Best glide 74, sinking 654 ft/min Best angle climb (Vx) 63 Best rate climb (Vy) 85 climbing at 1528 ft/min 10,000 density altitude: best rate climb (Vy) 73 climbing at 824 ft/min Please take all of this with a grain of salt. My ASI is not calibrated well. I figure these numbers are relatively good for my airplane as it is currently configured. For those still building: press on, the results are well worth the effort. For those flying XLs, I'm curious if your experience varies much from mine. Best wishes to all, Weston Walker N454WA ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Good point...I just look at all the stains over my wings where I have slopped fuel from the jerry can...:) That's the other point, fueling a header is harder than a wing from a jerry can... Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" --> Frank, I've got a header tank and the smell of gasoline is never present because the tank has a sealed gas cap, a tube in from the wings and in addition to the feed line to the engjne I put in an overflow line that is routed down and out to the outboard right centerwing rib. This prevents ever having to smell fuel. Something to remember if you're still building or about to. Larry > If you like the permanent stink of fuel in your cockpit then go right > ahead..Personally I couldn't bear the thought of the fuel tank in my > lap! > > Frank ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:35 AM PST US From: Rico Voss Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss > All your pumped systems in 43 years have a flooded > suction > right...:).. Yes, but please... 23 years, 43" pipes --- I'm not THAT old. >Flooded suction is the same as putting > the pumps in the > wing roots Agreed -- We're talking about the same thing. In the XL, the pump is shown on the floor (several inches below tank). I'm not suggesting lifting the fuel to a firewall mounted pump-- not a good thing. > Anyway...No a Facet will not pump air...at least not > very well. It will > also not pump it against the head of the other pump > (6psi)..So yes a > Facet pumping air is no pump at all. Good to know > Lets assume for just a moment that the above > staement is INCORRECT > (which it isn't). What would happen if one pump is > pumping fuel anf the > other is pumping air?...Where would the air > go?...Answer it gets vented > out the float bowls in the carbs....Hence no > problem. Hmmm. Isn't this the problem we're talking about. That is, air (or fuel vapor) moving to the carb INSTEAD OF fuel? But no, it shouldn't happen. > Are we seeing the elegant simplicity of this system > or what?...:) Yes, looks good... you've got my $.02 vote. Part of the original issue here was whether a selector "both" position was safe. Can we conclude that your setup (2 wing pumps with check valves) will overcome the dangers?? Cy ??? and Jack, the only risk I see with your single pump and selector valve is that of uncovering a tank outlet while that tank is online. Guess we're down to individual risk comfort levels and fuel management. Maybe we'll hear from some Jabiru/ single pump drivers.... > Have I ever let a pump run dry....Call me a chicken > but no I > haven't....:) Chicken-ness can be a good thing. How about on the ground? --Rico do not archive __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:36 AM PST US From: "norman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" Hello Mike, Thank you for taking the time to reply. My XL is just about ready for it's permit to fly, unfortunately I have a wing tank fuel leak which is going to delay things, such is life! I would like any information you could give me on the auto pilot servo mounting, a drawing perhaps and any photo's would be greatly appreciated. I have to apply with drawings etc to our PFA before I can get permission to fit the auto pilot. Have you coupled yours to a GPS? Thank you once again for you interest, Norman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fothergill" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill > > Hi Norman; > I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2 > inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4 > inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole > in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the > cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons > and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you > are interested, I can email pics off list. > Mike > CH-601HDS > UHS Spinners > > norman wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" > > > > Hello List, > > > > Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL? > > I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA here in the UK. > > > > Thank you in advance, > > > > Norman > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Ah.....No air getting to the carb is NOT the problem we are talking about. The problem is air (or worse vapour) getting to the suction (inlet) side of the PUMP. Air going to the carb is not an issue as it will simply vent through......If you airlock or vapour lock the SINGLE pump you're a glider! See my arguments before, a pump on the floor is subject to pressure loss because it is being flowed all the way from the tank via small pipe and bends filters( Dear God I hope not!). So that gravity feed may turn into a negative head by the time it gets to the single pump. Not the same thing at all as a pump in each wing root which it is almost impossible to develop negative head. Whats more you have two pumps...If you airlock one pump you have the other wet pump ready to go. These are very different systems!!!! Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Voss Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss > All your pumped systems in 43 years have a flooded suction > right...:).. Yes, but please... 23 years, 43" pipes --- I'm not THAT old. >Flooded suction is the same as putting > the pumps in the > wing roots Agreed -- We're talking about the same thing. In the XL, the pump is shown on the floor (several inches below tank). I'm not suggesting lifting the fuel to a firewall mounted pump-- not a good thing. > Anyway...No a Facet will not pump air...at least not very well. It > will also not pump it against the head of the other pump (6psi)..So > yes a Facet pumping air is no pump at all. Good to know > Lets assume for just a moment that the above staement is INCORRECT > (which it isn't). What would happen if one pump is pumping fuel anf > the other is pumping air?...Where would the air go?...Answer it gets > vented out the float bowls in the carbs....Hence no problem. Hmmm. Isn't this the problem we're talking about. That is, air (or fuel vapor) moving to the carb INSTEAD OF fuel? But no, it shouldn't happen. > Are we seeing the elegant simplicity of this system or what?...:) Yes, looks good... you've got my $.02 vote. Part of the original issue here was whether a selector "both" position was safe. Can we conclude that your setup (2 wing pumps with check valves) will overcome the dangers?? Cy ??? and Jack, the only risk I see with your single pump and selector valve is that of uncovering a tank outlet while that tank is online. Guess we're down to individual risk comfort levels and fuel management. Maybe we'll hear from some Jabiru/ single pump drivers.... > Have I ever let a pump run dry....Call me a chicken but no I > haven't....:) Chicken-ness can be a good thing. How about on the ground? --Rico do not archive __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" O yes...sorry, I have allowed a tank to go dry several times on the ground, the other simply continues pumping. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Voss Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss > All your pumped systems in 43 years have a flooded suction > right...:).. Yes, but please... 23 years, 43" pipes --- I'm not THAT old. >Flooded suction is the same as putting > the pumps in the > wing roots Agreed -- We're talking about the same thing. In the XL, the pump is shown on the floor (several inches below tank). I'm not suggesting lifting the fuel to a firewall mounted pump-- not a good thing. > Anyway...No a Facet will not pump air...at least not very well. It > will also not pump it against the head of the other pump (6psi)..So > yes a Facet pumping air is no pump at all. Good to know > Lets assume for just a moment that the above staement is INCORRECT > (which it isn't). What would happen if one pump is pumping fuel anf > the other is pumping air?...Where would the air go?...Answer it gets > vented out the float bowls in the carbs....Hence no problem. Hmmm. Isn't this the problem we're talking about. That is, air (or fuel vapor) moving to the carb INSTEAD OF fuel? But no, it shouldn't happen. > Are we seeing the elegant simplicity of this system or what?...:) Yes, looks good... you've got my $.02 vote. Part of the original issue here was whether a selector "both" position was safe. Can we conclude that your setup (2 wing pumps with check valves) will overcome the dangers?? Cy ??? and Jack, the only risk I see with your single pump and selector valve is that of uncovering a tank outlet while that tank is online. Guess we're down to individual risk comfort levels and fuel management. Maybe we'll hear from some Jabiru/ single pump drivers.... > Have I ever let a pump run dry....Call me a chicken but no I > haven't....:) Chicken-ness can be a good thing. How about on the ground? --Rico do not archive __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Garrou, Douglas" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" Thought I sent this in an earlier e-mail, but maybe not: I'm pretty sure the Commander 114 has a "both" position on the fuel-selector switch even though it is a low wing. Anyone know how it's plumbed? Or how it could be flown in Canada? :) Cheers Doug Garrou -----Original Message----- Time: 05:37:13 AM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Just a quick note to add to this, if you have a low wing plane in Canada and wanted to have an inspection to get your flight authority you would not pass with a valve that has a "both" position on it. So if it is enough of a reason for a whole country to find unacceptable then I would seriously consider not installing one. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:22 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower For a normal gascolator (the ZAC one or a Spruce one) , the pressure from the fuel pumps (faucet) is not that much to cause a problem... or to the factory designed fuel system, given that you change the hoses in mantainance work, We plan to change them every two years. Is routine in our Club for years, since there were more ultralights. in this planes (UL's) sometimes the hoses are more esposed to the UV... Is so little amount of hoses that is not a big cost. Saludos Gary Gower. "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" No and No....:) Firstly this idea of gravity fed.....We are talking INCHES, not feet. At full flow with a 1/4" line I bet the pressure loss will be some inches. That means the pump will be sucking, i.e not under gravity feed at all! If the vapour pressure of the fuel (autofuel has a much higher VP than autogas which is why "Proper" aircraft get away with mechanical pumps, electric pumps on the firewal with blast tubes and all that) exceeds the pressure the fuel is exposed to (like when its under suck) it will boil....Pumps stops pumping. As to leaks you are much better off with a leak OUT than a leak in...Air will stop the pump too. My gascolator has never leaked under pressure. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL I have a dumb question related to the subject - In the configuration shown on the drawing, the gascolator gets gravity fed from the tanks, then the pumps suck from the gascolator. If you add pressure will it leak? Do you increase the chances of a leak in the cockpit if you pressurize the gascolator? OK, it was two dumb questions. Thanks in advance, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com I'm now officially on wheels! DO NOT ARCHIVE "Blair, Heath" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Blair, Heath" After this mornings reading session I feel convinced not to run a both selector valve in a 601. Jerry and I are still pondering over the pumps in each wing or a pump in parallel --------------------------------- --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:47 PM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: Zenith-List: Paper Fuel filter --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Original message: Back to the pumps.....I have a simple automotive paper filter at the DISCHARGE of each pump in the wing roots. Note to Canadian Builders! A paper filter is not allowed in your homebuilt. Keep this in mind when plumbing your system paper fuel filter = no paper from inspectors Mark Townsend President K/W RAA Chapter Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:40 PM PST US From: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" My advice would be to not use a central gascolator. I have one anyway from my previous config but I also added one in each wing root for my wing tanks. A gacolator for each wing has a huge advantage in diagnostics. At least U know which wing has problems. A central gascolator won't tell u. Imagine you're in the middle of nowhere and have just filled one wing and found it contaminated. The other has older uncontaminated fuel. You may be able to get home on that clean wing tank. Just my .02. Perry Morrison Time: 07:10:33 AM PST US From: Kevin Kinney Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Kevin Kinney I've thought about the L/R/B switch problem. I understand the reasons for not running Both while in the air. I'm not flying yet, but I plan on using the "Left/Right" method. But I alos plan on getting a Off/Left/Right/Both fuel valve. But I plan on using Both only when tying down and will replacard "Both" to "Ground." Why? Because I plan on putting the gascolator on the engine side of the valve. If you leave the valve on Left, the gascolator will only collect water from the left tank. In preflight, you'll have to switch the valve to Right and drain the line again. On top of this, I don't know how long to wait after switching the valve. How long does it take water to flow to the lowest point when mixed with gas? The alternative to waiting is to drain the gascolator several times to make sure you've got fuel from the right tank in the drain cup. How does the list feel about this approach? Regards, kk ===== __________________________ Dr. Perry Morrison Morrison Associates Pty Ltd 0408892638 perrymorrison@yahoo.com __________________________ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:55 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I guess I'm having difficulty understanding what a gascolator for each tank gives you over and above the low point drain for the tank?? Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Perry Morrison Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" --> My advice would be to not use a central gascolator. I have one anyway from my previous config but I also added one in each wing root for my wing tanks. A gacolator for each wing has a huge advantage in diagnostics. At least U know which wing has problems. A central gascolator won't tell u. Imagine you're in the middle of nowhere and have just filled one wing and found it contaminated. The other has older uncontaminated fuel. You may be able to get home on that clean wing tank. Just my .02. Perry Morrison Time: 07:10:33 AM PST US From: Kevin Kinney Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Kevin Kinney I've thought about the L/R/B switch problem. I understand the reasons for not running Both while in the air. I'm not flying yet, but I plan on using the "Left/Right" method. But I alos plan on getting a Off/Left/Right/Both fuel valve. But I plan on using Both only when tying down and will replacard "Both" to "Ground." Why? Because I plan on putting the gascolator on the engine side of the valve. If you leave the valve on Left, the gascolator will only collect water from the left tank. In preflight, you'll have to switch the valve to Right and drain the line again. On top of this, I don't know how long to wait after switching the valve. How long does it take water to flow to the lowest point when mixed with gas? The alternative to waiting is to drain the gascolator several times to make sure you've got fuel from the right tank in the drain cup. How does the list feel about this approach? Regards, kk ===== __________________________ Dr. Perry Morrison Morrison Associates Pty Ltd 0408892638 perrymorrison@yahoo.com __________________________ ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:52 PM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Well I might as well add my 2 cents to this conversation. My fuel system is as follows. I will be running all 4 tanks in my XL the two outboard tanks will have low pressure faucet pumps mounted on the outboard side to act as transfer pumps to the inboard tanks ( this allows choice as to weather or not I want to use them or leave them empty). Outboard tanks will be equipt with float type senders while inboard tanks will have capacitance senders. Inboard tanks will have a high pressure pump in each wing root feeding up to a 6 way valve in cockpit (3 for feed 3 for return, this allows return fuel from the EFI to the inboard tank being drawn from). After selector is the gascolator then a boost pump mounted on firewall with a separate electrical hook up away from the regular pumps. All system controls will be mounted in centre console. With LEDS added to the digital gauges to come on when inboard tanks reach the last 3 gallons. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:34 PM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: Building a 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" Hello, I'm building a 701. What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins? I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer. Thanks, Tommy Walker Alabama P.S. If you get bored, you can look in on us at: http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you the new URL. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:21 PM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting holes, slots, etc. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" Hello, I'm building a 701. What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins? I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer. Thanks, Tommy Walker Alabama P.S. If you get bored, you can look in on us at: http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you the new URL. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:09 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" A fine system but I don't understand the need for the extra redundancy of the firewall mounted pump?...That is if you DON"T have a both position on the fuel selector? Do the wing root mounted hi pressure pumps have a restricted return to the tanks?..In other words if you momentarily uncovered the inlet to a pump where does the air go...It can't vent out like it does thru a carb float bowl and may airlock your pump? Presumably you will have to coordinated which pump is switched with the valve otherwise you will dead head the pump...Do you have a regulator to prevent you damaging the pump or is there a bypass valve in the pumps? I'm just beginning to think thru the FI system for my RV project. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cdngoose Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Well I might as well add my 2 cents to this conversation. My fuel system is as follows. I will be running all 4 tanks in my XL the two outboard tanks will have low pressure faucet pumps mounted on the outboard side to act as transfer pumps to the inboard tanks ( this allows choice as to weather or not I want to use them or leave them empty). Outboard tanks will be equipt with float type senders while inboard tanks will have capacitance senders. Inboard tanks will have a high pressure pump in each wing root feeding up to a 6 way valve in cockpit (3 for feed 3 for return, this allows return fuel from the EFI to the inboard tank being drawn from). After selector is the gascolator then a boost pump mounted on firewall with a separate electrical hook up away from the regular pumps. All system controls will be mounted in centre console. With LEDS added to the digital gauges to come on when inboard tanks reach the last 3 gallons. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:25 PM PST US From: "ron wehba" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting holes, slots, etc. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba" ain't cha got any plain ol' pictures? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting holes, slots, etc. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" > > Hello, > > I'm building a 701. > > What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins? > > I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer. > > Thanks, > > Tommy Walker > Alabama > > P.S. > If you get bored, you can look in on us at: > http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm > > I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time > job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that > IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP > sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you > the new URL. > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:28 PM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill Hi Norman; Yes, in fact it must be coupled to a GPS to operate. That is why these systems are so low priced these days. They do not need expensive gyros for reference. I use a Garmin 295. Photos attached. Regards Mike norman wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" > > Hello Mike, > Thank you for taking the time to reply. > > My XL is just about ready for it's permit to fly, unfortunately I have a > wing tank fuel leak which is going to delay things, such is life! > > I would like any information you could give me on the auto pilot servo > mounting, a drawing perhaps and any > photo's would be greatly appreciated. > I have to apply with drawings etc to our PFA before I can get permission to > fit the auto pilot. > > Have you coupled yours to a GPS? > > Thank you once again for you interest, > > Norman > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Fothergill" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL > > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill > > > >>Hi Norman; >>I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2 >>inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4 >>inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole >>in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the >>cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons >>and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you >>are interested, I can email pics off list. >>Mike >>CH-601HDS >>UHS Spinners >> >>norman wrote: >> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" >>> >>>Hello List, >>> >>>Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL? >>>I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting >> > the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA > here in the UK. > >>>Thank you in advance, >>> >>>Norman >>>. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:40 PM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting holes, slots, etc. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Tommy, I use several ways depending on what needs to be done. BUT 1. If its cutting a slot, I sue a #30 drill bit to rough out the slot then I clean it up with a Drimel tool with disk grinder wheel. 2. Trimming off large portions of skin I score it with a box knife then peel it like a sardine can...carefully....or use snips... Tommy Walker wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" Hello, I'm building a 701. What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins? I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer. Thanks, Tommy Walker Alabama P.S. If you get bored, you can look in on us at: http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you the new URL. Rick Orlando, FL http://www.geocities.com/n701rr/index.html --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:34 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting holes, slots, etc. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Tommy : I found that a unibit or step drill works best for drilling holes from 3/16 to 1". It will give you a very smooth bore. For cutting slots drill each end and depending on the slot size use a shear or a dremel tool. Jack in Clovis CA Tommy Walker wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" Hello, I'm building a 701. What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins? I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer. Thanks, Tommy Walker Alabama P.S. If you get bored, you can look in on us at: http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you the new URL. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:13 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Tank Topic - What Does ZAC Recommend? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" You're absolutely right Frank, but if you go to Lowe's and purchase an OSHA approved red steel fuel-can shaped like a drum and has a manually-operated sprung cover and a 90-degree yellow plastic funnel attached, you'd not have to spill anything. The 5-gal can costs about $29.00. I bought two. They're also stable in a car. Also I use a 10-ft wire with gator-clips each end to attach to the gas can handle and to the 601 belly angle when filling. Much better than the plastic jugs that aren't shaped well to even stand up in a moving vehicle and the funnels on them are awkward at best. Larry > Good point...I just look at all the stains over my wings where I have > slopped fuel from the jerry can...:) > > That's the other point, fueling a header is harder than a wing from a > jerry can... > > Frank ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:45 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cutting holes, slots, etc. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" Tommy, For larger holes I use a fly cutter and for the smaller ones (up to 1 3/8) I use three different Unibits. Both methods work very well. The initial cost may be a bit high but you'll have them for life and they can be used for other projects around the shop. What part of Alabama? I grew up in Birmingham. Do Not Archive Mark Stauffer 601XL - Working on fuselage. Odenton, MD -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Walker Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting holes, slots, etc. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" Hello, I'm building a 701. What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins? I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer. Thanks, Tommy Walker Alabama P.S. If you get bored, you can look in on us at: http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you the new URL. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:33 PM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Building a 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" Small holes up to an inch, use a unibit, larger, use a hole saw, very slowly, slots, drill holes in the four corners and use shears. Larry N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: Building a 701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" > > Hello, > > I'm building a 701. > > What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins? > > I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer. > > Thanks, > > Tommy Walker > Alabama > > P.S. > If you get bored, you can look in on us at: > http://24.119.137.93/img/main_fs.htm > > I am 7 days away from retirement and my building buddy works a full time > job. So, if we aren't there, it will be more dull than usual. Also, that > IP is not static, but changes every month or so, depending on what my ISP > sets.... You can always email me if you can't look in and I will send you > the new URL. > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:17 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Jeff, Something to look at on the rudder and cable tension. The rudder peddles have to be at the same angle as the pipe shaft for the front landing gear. Mine were a bit back and a problem arose. When the gear shaft was all the way down (before engine weight, etc) I attached and adjusted the rudder cables. All was well. Then the gear traveled north a bit with the extra weight. No problem there. Only thing was the rudder cables became noticeably slack. I then had to adjust the steering rods so that the peddles were the same angle so that the travel of the gear shaft upward did not effect the cable tension. The hope is that without any weight (as in flight) the shaft returns south and the cables are not over tight. I guess this is in the plans somewhere (as per Nick), but dammed if I saw it, Best regards, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:00 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Converting from single to dual control sticks? --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Craig, I have duels in my XL and I studied the difference in the plans a great deal before making the switch. ZAC sells everything you need bolt on in the kit. Only thing hard is the nuts that have to be held and tightened inside the main spar (wings have to be off) You have to make a special tool for the job. The other thing is the rear bracket that the control rod turns in. ZAC pre-drills to two bolt holes (for some dammed reason) and trying to align them with the holes you already have is near impossible. If you order the kit tell ZAC not to drill them dammed holes. The other thing about the duels is the ZAC fuel valve controls have to be changed. I wrote a bunch in the thread last month about the problem and the fix. Last thing is you. If you are a big fat legged fellow there may be a comfort question. Not much room once the stick is between them, Best regards, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:07 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Converting from single to dual control sticks? --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Bill, I was the second to order and receive and No... ZAC would not take a return on the single parts. Anyone interested in making me an offer for the center control system ? Regards, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:04 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL Flight Training --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Clyde, Can you post the 14 locations and a POC for those training sights? Regards, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:20 PM PST US From: "norman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" Hello Mike, Sorry but I could not see any photo's attached to your e-mail. I have a Skymap IIIc GPS to couple to the autopilot once installed. Thank you in advance, Norman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fothergill" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill > > Hi Norman; > Yes, in fact it must be coupled to a GPS to operate. That is why these > systems are so low priced these days. They do not need expensive gyros > for reference. I use a Garmin 295. > Photos attached. > Regards > Mike > > norman wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" > > > > Hello Mike, > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. > > > > My XL is just about ready for it's permit to fly, unfortunately I have a > > wing tank fuel leak which is going to delay things, such is life! > > > > I would like any information you could give me on the auto pilot servo > > mounting, a drawing perhaps and any > > photo's would be greatly appreciated. > > I have to apply with drawings etc to our PFA before I can get permission to > > fit the auto pilot. > > > > Have you coupled yours to a GPS? > > > > Thank you once again for you interest, > > > > Norman > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mike Fothergill" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL > > > > > > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill > > > > > > > >>Hi Norman; > >>I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2 > >>inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4 > >>inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole > >>in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the > >>cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons > >>and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you > >>are interested, I can email pics off list. > >>Mike > >>CH-601HDS > >>UHS Spinners > >> > >>norman wrote: > >> > >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" > >>> > >>>Hello List, > >>> > >>>Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL? > >>>I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting > >> > > the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA > > here in the UK. > > > >>>Thank you in advance, > >>> > >>>Norman > >>>. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Building a 701 From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin An 1/8" chain saw file does a good job cutting narrow slots in the middle of a sheet or other places where it's hard to use snips. It's a little tricky to keep it going strait but with a little practice you can get good results. I cut several large holes using a circle cutter (fly cutter) chucked into a brace. This cutter should also work in a drill press running very slowly. Don't try it in an electric hand drill, that can get dangerous. If you want to cut a chunk of sheet aluminum off along a straight line, you can use a utility knife to score it and then put the score line along the edge of a work table and clamp a board on top then you can break it off clean. You'll still have a sharp edge to file off but it comes out a lot straighter and cleaner than you can get with snips. on 1/24/05 6:05 PM, Tommy Walker at twalker@cableone.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" > > Hello, > > I'm building a 701. > > What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum skins? > > I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer. > > Thanks, -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive.