Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:55 AM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (Craig Payne)
2. 04:13 AM - Bill of Georgia: CH601XL Training (Clyde Barcus)
3. 06:43 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Rico Voss)
4. 07:17 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (george may)
5. 08:10 AM - Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL (Mike Fothergill)
6. 08:16 AM - Low Wing Plumbing Solved..... (Zed Smith)
7. 09:05 AM - Re: Fuel systems again... (Fred or Sandy Hulen)
8. 09:20 AM - Re: Tax Write-Off (Kent Brown)
9. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: Fuel systems again... (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
10. 09:53 AM - Re: Low Wing Plumbing Solved..... (B Johnson)
11. 09:57 AM - Re: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
12. 10:51 AM - Re: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder (Jeffrey J Paris)
13. 02:05 PM - Prop Spinner for,701, 912ULS, Warp Drive HPL 3 R 914 (JERICKSON03E@aol.com)
14. 09:00 PM - Re: Re: Fuel systems again... (n801bh@netzero.com)
15. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: Fuel systems again... (Now in the 801 and 701) (Gary Gower)
16. 10:17 PM - How to License Your Homebuilt Aircraft (Jon Croke)
17. 11:38 PM - Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. (xl)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
The EZ does in fact contain a solid state gyro. See
http://www.trioavionics.com/Features.htm#Solid_State_Gyro for a picture.
Here is a quote from their web site:
" Mechanical gyros have been a mainstay in aircraft instruments for years.
However, they are now being strongly challenged by some very impressive
solid state electronic gyros that are small enough to fit into a 1/4 inch
cube. These gyros are highly responsive, accurate and not subject to the
effects of mechanical wear and breakage of their mechanical ancestors. The
new gyros are also different in that they do not obtain their attitude
reference from gravity, but derive it from electronic signals from GPS
receivers, electronic magnetic sensors or accelerometers. The EZ Pilot
utilizes these new gyros to provide fast, accurate and reliable attitude
information."
It uses the GPS for long-term navigation.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Fothergill
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill
<mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi Norman;
Yes, in fact it must be coupled to a GPS to operate. That is why these
systems are so low priced these days. They do not need expensive gyros
for reference. I use a Garmin 295.
Photos attached.
Regards
Mike
norman wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
>
> Hello Mike,
> Thank you for taking the time to reply.
>
> My XL is just about ready for it's permit to fly, unfortunately I have a
> wing tank fuel leak which is going to delay things, such is life!
>
> I would like any information you could give me on the auto pilot servo
> mounting, a drawing perhaps and any
> photo's would be greatly appreciated.
> I have to apply with drawings etc to our PFA before I can get permission
to
> fit the auto pilot.
>
> Have you coupled yours to a GPS?
>
> Thank you once again for you interest,
>
> Norman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Fothergill" <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill
>
> <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
>
>>Hi Norman;
>>I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2
>>inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4
>>inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole
>>in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the
>>cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons
>>and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you
>>are interested, I can email pics off list.
>>Mike
>>CH-601HDS
>>UHS Spinners
>>
>>norman wrote:
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
>>>
>>>Hello List,
>>>
>>>Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL?
>>>I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting
>>
> the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA
> here in the UK.
>
>>>Thank you in advance,
>>>
>>>Norman
>>>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Bill of Georgia: CH601XL Training |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" <barcusc@comcast.net>
Sports Planes
Ph (801) 420-6176
www.sportsplanes.com
Alexandria, VA Jim Pellien, 703-851-9375
Portland, OR Ben Masengil, 541-409-1549
Draper, UT Josha Foss, 801-420-6176
Spokane, WA Gloria Swain, 509-891-0820
Albany, NY David Prescott, 518-514-1162
Cassopolis, MI Brian Taylor, 269-476-1374
Mexico, MO Roger Dubbert, 573-581-9000
Shreveport, LA Jeff Boyd, 318-208-1831
Naples, FL Robert Hughes, 239-649-7560
Southern CA 425-444-7699
Southern CA Shawn 619-523-9114
Chandler, AZ Sky McCorkie, 480-250-3643
Ft Lauderdale, FL Paul Matthews, 954-771-2937
Regards
Clyde
CH 601XL Builder
Message 3
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
Greetings, Frank,
> Ah.....No air getting to the carb is NOT the problem
> we are talking
> about.
Ah, ... air going to the carb instead of fuel IS the
problem, but let's dont get hung up on semantics.
My question involves this:
> The problem is air (or worse vapour) getting to the
> suction (inlet) side
> of the PUMP. If you airlock or vapour lock the
> SINGLE pump you're a
> glider!
>
> See my arguments before, a pump on the floor is
> subject to pressure loss
> because it is being flowed all the way from the tank
> via small pipe and
> bends filters( Dear God I hope not!). So that
> gravity feed may turn into
> a negative head by the time it gets to the single
> pump. Not the same
> thing at all as a pump in each wing root which it is
> almost impossible
> to develop negative head.
>
In my opinion, you are over-stating the threat of
vapor-lock in the suction side of a pump.
IF:
1. The pump can pull a strong enough vacuum to
vaporize a significant amount of fuel (I seriously
doubt that).
AND 2. The pump suction line from the tank is
constricted, from a clogged finger-screen, pinched
tubing, clogged filter (yes, in the wrong place), or
plugged vent.
THEN:
Perhaps the pump could vapor-lock. But at that point,
an airbound pump is irrelevant, cause aint no fuel
gonna flow anyway.. You better be on that other tank.
(or using your 2 pump system). The airbound pump
becomes another symptom of the real problem.
I agree that heat will cause vapor lock, but I can't
see that happening except forward of firewall.
One of our local EAA members plopped his brand new RV
into a Kansas kornfield shortly after take-off.
Suspected cause was sitting on the ground with hot
engine.
My point is that a single pump (in conjunction with an
engine-driven pump) should be a workable system,
provided that THE PILOT DOES NOT ALLOW TANK OUTLET TO
UNCOVER. I dont think Chris Heinz would have designed
it that way (XL) if it weren't.
I believe a recommended pre-first-flight test is to
make sure that your fuel delivery system can supply
fuel at a rate double the anticipated maximum engine
consumption. Wouldn't this insure that pump vapor
lock would not occur due to tubing size??
Are there documented cases where this (suction-side
vapor lock) has occurred?
Sorry to keep hammering on this horse, but there are
some issues that I dont think are resolved. And lots
of builders are considering single-pump systems, per
plans.
Respectfully,
Rico
__________________________________
Message 4
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
"Sorry to keep hammering on this horse, but there are
some issues that I dont think are resolved. And lots
of builders are considering single-pump systems, per
plans"
Rico--
You are right. There are some issues still to be resolved.
I belive the ZAC fuel flow layout covers most of what is needed, however,
if you are using a Rotax, their installation manual suggests that a return
line is needed to one of the tanks.
George May
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi Craig;
Yes it does, but it needs the GPS to get it's reference.
Mike
Craig Payne wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> The EZ does in fact contain a solid state gyro. See
> http://www.trioavionics.com/Features.htm#Solid_State_Gyro for a picture.
> Here is a quote from their web site:
>
> " Mechanical gyros have been a mainstay in aircraft instruments for years.
> However, they are now being strongly challenged by some very impressive
> solid state electronic gyros that are small enough to fit into a 1/4 inch
> cube. These gyros are highly responsive, accurate and not subject to the
> effects of mechanical wear and breakage of their mechanical ancestors. The
> new gyros are also different in that they do not obtain their attitude
> reference from gravity, but derive it from electronic signals from GPS
> receivers, electronic magnetic sensors or accelerometers. The EZ Pilot
> utilizes these new gyros to provide fast, accurate and reliable attitude
> information."
>
> It uses the GPS for long-term navigation.
>
> -- Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Fothergill
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill
> <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
>
> Hi Norman;
> Yes, in fact it must be coupled to a GPS to operate. That is why these
> systems are so low priced these days. They do not need expensive gyros
> for reference. I use a Garmin 295.
> Photos attached.
> Regards
> Mike
>
> norman wrote:
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
>>
>>Hello Mike,
>>Thank you for taking the time to reply.
>>
>>My XL is just about ready for it's permit to fly, unfortunately I have a
>>wing tank fuel leak which is going to delay things, such is life!
>>
>>I would like any information you could give me on the auto pilot servo
>>mounting, a drawing perhaps and any
>>photo's would be greatly appreciated.
>>I have to apply with drawings etc to our PFA before I can get permission
>
> to
>
>>fit the auto pilot.
>>
>>Have you coupled yours to a GPS?
>>
>>Thank you once again for you interest,
>>
>>Norman
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Mike Fothergill" <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
>>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trio Avionics EZ Auto Pilot in the XL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill
>>
>><mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
>>
>>>Hi Norman;
>>>I have the Trio EZ Pilot in my CH-601HDS. The servo is mounted on a 2
>>>inch high box on the floor behind the aileron bellcrank and about 4
>>>inches off centre to the aileron torque tube. I drilled a new 9/64 hole
>>>in the bellcrank about 1 inch above the hole that connects to the
>>>cables. This has worked well with plenty of torque to drive the ailerons
>>>and yet is mnually over-rideable in case of some kind of failure. If you
>>>are interested, I can email pics off list.
>>>Mike
>>>CH-601HDS
>>>UHS Spinners
>>>
>>>norman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "norman" <normskiroo@ukonline.co.uk>
>>>>
>>>>Hello List,
>>>>
>>>>Has anyone fitted this Autopilot to their XL?
>>>>I will be fitting mine soon and need some tech info/drawing on mounting
>>>
>>the servo to include in my application to have the mod approved by our PFA
>>here in the UK.
>>
>>
>>>>Thank you in advance,
>>>>
>>>>Norman
>>>>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Low Wing Plumbing Solved..... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
As has been mentioned, the Fuel Supply Horse has been beaten senseless & put away
without supper.
The obvious solution is to mount the tanks on pylons ABOVE the wings. This leaves
room for weapons
bays concealed inside the wings with room for the nine yards of belted paint balls,
and a rack for
flour bombs.
The problem of a Relief Tube has not yet been attacked with the vigor of one in
immediate pain.
Would somebody kindly advise as to the location of construction photos showing
same.
Obviously, in this age of political correctness, a one-size-fits-all unisex model
is preferred.
An instruction manual in PDF format might be helpful.
Inclusion of this device might preclude the installation of dual controls, but
some thought may be needed
to accomodate left-handed persons.
Anything in the Archives, or has this question been presented to ZAC?
Wouldn't you like to be present when Nick at ZAC opens an e-mail concerning proper
relief tube installation.
Zed/701/R912/90+% as usual
on pain of injury, DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel systems again... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" <hulens61@comcast.net>
++ Hi guys... PLEASE read and consider what I'm writing for you.
Every so many months there pops up a long on-going discussion about how to
design your fuel system. In the interest of safety, my question is WHY?
The archives are filled with feedback from builders that have hundreds of
trouble-free hours on their fuel systems. I'm mentioning this again because
WHAT IF some of you guys make "just one little mistake" in your design that
some day, when the conditions are just right, forces you down with tragic
consequences!
I'm suggesting to you once again that you select a builder that has posted
100 or more hours of trouble free operation for the same aircraft and engine
model as you are building, and COPY it ! Please don't use a fuel system
design that someone else hasn't proven over a long term.
I have over 180 hours of completely trouble free fuel system operation in my
Jabiru 3300 powered 601 HDS. For the record, I DO have a fuel selector that
has the "BOTH" position and have flown with it in that position 99% of the
time. I use (2) electric pumps (Facet), (1) at the fuel outlet of each wing
tank "pushing" fuel on toward the cockpit located fuel selector valve. From
there the fuel continues on to my final gascolator mounted low on the
firewall. That gascolator has the fine micro-mess screen that filters any
particles out before going on up to the engine-mounted mechanical pump. For
additional safety, I also have small quick-drain collators ( from Zenith)
mounted right after each wing tank pump (at the lowest point in the HDS wing
where the outer wings bolt to the center wing section). I pretty much leave
my facet pumps on all the time and my left tank tends to deliver fuel just a
bit faster than the right one. So, when I see the left tank fuel gauge
noticeably lower than the right one, I just flip the left electric pump off
for a while until the two fuel gauges read the same again, then flip it back
on. It takes about a 30 to 40 minutes of flight time for the left tank to
get noticably ahead of the right one.
Some of you probably haven't yet experienced how difficult it is to stall a
601. They just want to keep on flying as you pull the nose higher and
higher. With the nose high in the air like you're going for the X-prize, I
can turn both wing tank pumps off and keep it in that position for as long
as I want to without the slightest suggestion of fuel starvation. My EAA
Technical councilor talked me into using aluminum fuel line all the way from
the tanks to the firewall mounted gascolator. (fire shielded rubber fuel
line from there to the mechanical pump). I'm glad he talked me into the
aluminum fuel line as it was much easier to do than I had imagined, and it's
essentially permanent.
I hope I have talked you fellows into adopting a "proven system" from one of
the prior builders that has a lot of successful hours logged. Before
adopting the fuel system that I described, be sure to get it approved for
YOUR aircraft and YOUR engine choice by your EAA Technical Councilor or
Zenith personnel.
Tailwinds.............
Fred Hulen
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" <kentbrown@verizon.net>
>
> Has anyone tried writing off their expenses associated with building their
> experimental aircraft?
> Since the FAA's definition includes, "...for the EDUCATION or
> recreation..." I was thinking it might
> qualify somehow.... probably a stretch, but worth a try!
>
> Thanks in advance!
> Forest K.
> CH601XL - Rudder 80% complete (you have to start somewhere!)
> N601FK (reserved)
The only ways to write off your costs for taxes is if you use your airplane
for business, or if you donate it to a recognized charity.
If used for business, you can depreciate the cost and deduct operating
expenses only to the extent of your business use percentage vs. personal
use. It just won't work as an education deduction for various reasons.
Also keep in mind that a $10,000 deduction does NOT save $10,000 in taxes!
Sorry!
Kent(Tax Man)Brown
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel systems again... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Well you have a good point but I have just a couple of extra thoughts
for you.
1) Your EAA tech councillor may not know squat about the difference
between auto fuel and avgas.
2) You may well get away with sucking all the way uphill like you
described in your extreme example...If you were using autofel you would
be much nearer fuel boiling than with Avgas.
3) Altitude matters. The higher you go the more likely fuel will boil.
4) Autofuel blend varies wildly throughout the year...Apparently it has
higher vapour pressure during the winter months....More risk if you have
old "winter" fuel used in warm weather
5) This issue is not well understood. Eggenfelner had an engine out on
take off due to VL after I saw they were mounting pumps on the
firewall.... Whats the difference between the test you did and the
Eggenfelner example...not much I suspect!
100 hours is not much experience to be going off to copy a fuel system,
remember there are millions of hours of pipers running around with
mechanical fuel pumps only but this is a very different situation with
autofuel.
Don't get me wrong your system is a good one but you would be foolish to
try taking off without your Facets running and I would hate folks
reading your post to simply dismiss the issue from the test you did.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred or
Sandy Hulen
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel systems again...
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen"
--> <hulens61@comcast.net>
++ Hi guys... PLEASE read and consider what I'm writing for you.
Every so many months there pops up a long on-going discussion about how
to design your fuel system. In the interest of safety, my question is
WHY?
The archives are filled with feedback from builders that have hundreds
of trouble-free hours on their fuel systems. I'm mentioning this again
because WHAT IF some of you guys make "just one little mistake" in your
design that some day, when the conditions are just right, forces you
down with tragic consequences!
I'm suggesting to you once again that you select a builder that has
posted 100 or more hours of trouble free operation for the same aircraft
and engine model as you are building, and COPY it ! Please don't use a
fuel system design that someone else hasn't proven over a long term.
I have over 180 hours of completely trouble free fuel system operation
in my Jabiru 3300 powered 601 HDS. For the record, I DO have a fuel
selector that has the "BOTH" position and have flown with it in that
position 99% of the time. I use (2) electric pumps (Facet), (1) at the
fuel outlet of each wing tank "pushing" fuel on toward the cockpit
located fuel selector valve. From there the fuel continues on to my
final gascolator mounted low on the firewall. That gascolator has the
fine micro-mess screen that filters any particles out before going on up
to the engine-mounted mechanical pump. For additional safety, I also
have small quick-drain collators ( from Zenith) mounted right after each
wing tank pump (at the lowest point in the HDS wing where the outer
wings bolt to the center wing section). I pretty much leave my facet
pumps on all the time and my left tank tends to deliver fuel just a bit
faster than the right one. So, when I see the left tank fuel gauge
noticeably lower than the right one, I just flip the left electric pump
off for a while until the two fuel gauges read the same again, then flip
it back on. It takes about a 30 to 40 minutes of flight time for the
left tank to get noticably ahead of the right one.
Some of you probably haven't yet experienced how difficult it is to
stall a 601. They just want to keep on flying as you pull the nose
higher and higher. With the nose high in the air like you're going for
the X-prize, I can turn both wing tank pumps off and keep it in that
position for as long as I want to without the slightest suggestion of
fuel starvation. My EAA Technical councilor talked me into using
aluminum fuel line all the way from the tanks to the firewall mounted
gascolator. (fire shielded rubber fuel line from there to the mechanical
pump). I'm glad he talked me into the aluminum fuel line as it was much
easier to do than I had imagined, and it's essentially permanent.
I hope I have talked you fellows into adopting a "proven system" from
one of the prior builders that has a lot of successful hours logged.
Before adopting the fuel system that I described, be sure to get it
approved for YOUR aircraft and YOUR engine choice by your EAA Technical
Councilor or Zenith personnel.
Tailwinds.............
Fred Hulen
Message 10
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| Subject: | Low Wing Plumbing Solved..... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
I think a combination of the three: Relief tube, paint ball system, and
flour drop bays....
The relief tube fills a water balloon which is dropped on the un-suspecting
trespassers through the flour bomb bay....
They won't be back, no law enforcement involvement needed <grin>
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zed Smith
Subject: Zenith-List: Low Wing Plumbing Solved.....
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
As has been mentioned, the Fuel Supply Horse has been beaten senseless & put
away without supper.
The obvious solution is to mount the tanks on pylons ABOVE the wings. This
leaves room for weapons
bays concealed inside the wings with room for the nine yards of belted paint
balls, and a rack for
flour bombs.
The problem of a Relief Tube has not yet been attacked with the vigor of one
in immediate pain.
Would somebody kindly advise as to the location of construction photos
showing same.
Obviously, in this age of political correctness, a one-size-fits-all unisex
model is preferred.
An instruction manual in PDF format might be helpful.
Inclusion of this device might preclude the installation of dual controls,
but some thought may be needed
to accomodate left-handed persons.
Anything in the Archives, or has this question been presented to ZAC?
Wouldn't you like to be present when Nick at ZAC opens an e-mail concerning
proper relief tube installation.
Zed/701/R912/90+% as usual
on pain of injury, DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves; 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
No problem Rico,
I never said the single lift pump in the cabin was unworkable. Part of
the problem is in the early days ZAC showed Facets on the firewall..BUT
with a header tank...Big difference.
What then started to happen was builders were going with wing tanks only
with the pumps in the same place...not good. So there have been examples
where this issue has not been addressed.
Many many RV's have been using the boost pump on the cabin floor lifting
to a mechanical pump.....It works but with autofuel the VL margin is
smaller.
I had a friend of mine who climbed into his plane once and accidently
stood on an aluminium fuel line and partially crushed it.....Fourtunatly
he selected the correct tank and it vapour locked as he taxied out. If
the pump had been in the wing root this would have shown up as a low
pressure and he would have had the other pump as well...
See my other reply which details autofuel risks.
My simple point all along has been that hydraulically speaking the right
place is to put the pumps as close to the tank as possible. As this
means two pumps and they are cheap and light...why not?
Does this mean that a central pump on the cabin floor with a huge 3/8ths
line feeding it will not work nearly as well...no not at all but you are
increasing the risk.
For me if it is easy to design a simple almost perfect system then you
might as well.
I did not explain my Air to the carb point clearly....What I meant to
say was if you have airbubbles in the fuel they will simply get vented
thru the carb.
Now on a single pump engine and fuel injection its not quite so simple
because unless there is a bleed of some kind those airbubbles have
nowhere to go and the pump will not generate pressure to move them thru
the system...Most of us are carbed so that issue goes away.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Voss
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Pumps, Low Wings, and Selector Valves;
601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
Greetings, Frank,
> Ah.....No air getting to the carb is NOT the problem we are talking
> about.
Ah, ... air going to the carb instead of fuel IS the problem, but let's
dont get hung up on semantics.
My question involves this:
> The problem is air (or worse vapour) getting to the suction (inlet)
> side of the PUMP. If you airlock or vapour lock the SINGLE pump you're
> a glider!
>
> See my arguments before, a pump on the floor is subject to pressure
> loss because it is being flowed all the way from the tank via small
> pipe and bends filters( Dear God I hope not!). So that gravity feed
> may turn into a negative head by the time it gets to the single pump.
> Not the same thing at all as a pump in each wing root which it is
> almost impossible to develop negative head.
>
In my opinion, you are over-stating the threat of vapor-lock in the
suction side of a pump.
IF:
1. The pump can pull a strong enough vacuum to vaporize a significant
amount of fuel (I seriously doubt that).
AND 2. The pump suction line from the tank is constricted, from a
clogged finger-screen, pinched tubing, clogged filter (yes, in the wrong
place), or plugged vent.
THEN:
Perhaps the pump could vapor-lock. But at that point, an airbound pump
is irrelevant, cause aint no fuel gonna flow anyway.. You better be on
that other tank.
(or using your 2 pump system). The airbound pump
becomes another symptom of the real problem.
I agree that heat will cause vapor lock, but I can't see that happening
except forward of firewall.
One of our local EAA members plopped his brand new RV into a Kansas
kornfield shortly after take-off.
Suspected cause was sitting on the ground with hot engine.
My point is that a single pump (in conjunction with an engine-driven
pump) should be a workable system, provided that THE PILOT DOES NOT
ALLOW TANK OUTLET TO UNCOVER. I dont think Chris Heinz would have
designed it that way (XL) if it weren't.
I believe a recommended pre-first-flight test is to make sure that your
fuel delivery system can supply fuel at a rate double the anticipated
maximum engine consumption. Wouldn't this insure that pump vapor lock
would not occur due to tubing size??
Are there documented cases where this (suction-side vapor lock) has
occurred?
Sorry to keep hammering on this horse, but there are
some issues that I dont think are resolved. And lots
of builders are considering single-pump systems, per plans.
Respectfully,
Rico
__________________________________
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris" <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
Thanks Bill I really appreciate the response and it sounds very rational to me.
I'll check into ASAP and make the proper adjustments.
Jeff
--- On Mon 01/24, < JAPhillipsGA@aol.com > wrote:
From: [mailto: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nose Wheel Steering/Rudder
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Jeff, Something to look at on the rudder and cable tension. The rudder
peddles have to be at the same angle as the pipe shaft for the front landing gear.
Mine were a bit back and a problem arose. When the gear shaft was all the way
down (before engine weight, etc) I attached and adjusted the rudder cables.
All was well. Then the gear traveled north a bit with the extra weight. No
problem there. Only thing was the rudder cables became noticeably slack. I
then had to adjust the steering rods so that the peddles were the same angle so
that the travel of the gear shaft upward did not effect the cable tension.
The hope is that without any weight (as in flight) the shaft returns south and
the cables are not over tight. I guess this is in the plans somewhere (as per
Nick), but dammed if I saw it, Best regards, Bill of Georgia
===================================
st
Message 13
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| Subject: | Prop Spinner for,701, 912ULS, Warp Drive HPL 3 R 914 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
Need advice on options for spinner. PN and source would be appreciated.
Also, what is a good blade angle to start with? 13 degrees?
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel systems again... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
: I pretty much leave
my facet pumps on all the time and my left tank tends to deliver fuel just a
bit faster than the right one. So, when I see the left tank .:
This happens to my 801 too. I went overboard to try and correct this by venting
the tanks to what I think is proper. I to have my fuel system set up to draw
out of both tanks at the same time. The left one empties faster then the right
one EVERY time. OK guys, I am all ears on why ??????????????????????
Ben Haas N801BH
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel systems again... (Now in the 801 and 701) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Ben, you are not alone...
Same happens to our two 701's
One plane has vented caps with a tube pointing to the front of the wing with the
"both, left ,right, Off english valve, The other one has the "nomally vented"
ZAC fuel tank caps that come with the kit with the single "both, off" valve.
Both plnes land with uneven fuel remaining after about an hour or more
flight.
One posibility we dicused in the club is: Because the gascolator is in the left
side of the fuselage and there is diferent amount of hose from each tank to
the gascolator, for the gasoline to travel... no other explanation came up.
Our only concern is that this condition spils gasoline overboard (stains over
the wing coming from the caps). How much? we dont know now. This will reduce
the flight range in a long cross country fight, as the electric fuel gauges
are not accurate, might lead to an emergency landing problem for fuel starvation,
we think is kind of serious, also less important, is the cost of that
gasoline ;-)
Our longest flight has been of 1:43 at 87 mph @ 5,000 RPM. with a diference of
more that 1/4th of a tank betwen tanks (in the electric gauges).
Any Facts or ideas will be apppreciated, one more thing: Both planes fly with
BOTH tanks at the same time (as ZAC plans) gravity feed, engine (Rotax 912S)
has mechanical pump.
We will like to understand and accept a logical explanation, before thinking in
the more complicated "left, right" valve instalation/management of the gasoline
in flight
Saludos
Gary Gower.
"n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com"
: I pretty much leave
my facet pumps on all the time and my left tank tends to deliver fuel just a
bit faster than the right one. So, when I see the left tank .:
This happens to my 801 too. I went overboard to try and correct this by venting
the tanks to what I think is proper. I to have my fuel system set up to draw
out of both tanks at the same time. The left one empties faster then the right
one EVERY time. OK guys, I am all ears on why ??????????????????????
Ben Haas N801BH
---------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | How to License Your Homebuilt Aircraft |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
This is an advertisement to announce that www.HomebuiltHELP.com has just completed production, and is proud to announce the release of their latest DVD video presentation: "How to License Your Homebuilt Aircraft". (for the U.S.)
To the best of our knowledge, this is the first comprehensive DVD video that explains
in detail the complete licensing process for experimental amateur built
aircraft - showing what/how to fill out the forms, and also demonstrating new
capabilities such as reserving an N number by going online and using the FAA
website.
I'll leave it at that, as full details are available at the www.HomebuiltHELP.com website.
Thanks!
Jon
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Cutting holes, slots, etc. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
The best way is 'whatever works' :)
You should get comfortable working with the metal.
I used a nibbler alot. Don't remember where I purchased it, but:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/nibblingtool.php
(The one I have is different....)
The unibit is great for round holes.
Shears work for larger holes, if they fit.
I didn't know about the scoring trick for long straight cuts
- I'll use it now.
I did cut my panel with a fly cutter. I cut the pattern in a
piece of scrap then I clamped it to the panel and used it as a guide.
It was nice up there tonight!
Joe E
N633Z @ BFI
155 hours
http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/
> Hello,
> I'm building a 701.
> What is the best way to cut holes and slots in these thin aluminum
> skins? I'm working on the elevator and stabilizer.
> Thanks, Tommy Walker Alabama
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