---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/14/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:28 AM - Re: Transponder install (Bryan Martin) 2. 06:15 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (Dan Knezacek) 3. 07:32 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (Larry McFarland) 4. 07:34 AM - Re: Transponder install (Craig Payne) 5. 10:44 AM - Scotchbrite now? (Tony Bonsell) 6. 10:46 AM - Transtar primer (Mike H) 7. 11:07 AM - Re: Scotchbrite now? (N5SL) 8. 12:12 PM - Re: Scotchbrite now? (RURUNY@aol.com) 9. 01:14 PM - Re: Scotchbrite now? (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 10. 02:00 PM - Re: Scotchbrite now? (N5SL) 11. 04:15 PM - Re: Rivets (DICK WILBERS) 12. 04:19 PM - XL: Hatch lock and aileron trip (Craig Payne) 13. 05:28 PM - Re: Scotchbrite now? (Brandon Tucker) 14. 06:35 PM - Re: XL: Hatch lock and aileron trip (Tim & Diane Shankland) 15. 07:51 PM - Re: Scotchbrite now? (Larry Martin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Transponder install From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin On a homebuilt, you can install anything yourself and, according to the FARs, the manufacturer (that's you) can do the static system and transponder checks (if you have the equipment and know how). The trick is finding someone who will sell you one. Most Garmin dealers won't sell to homebuilders, Garmin won't let them. You will probably have to find a used one that was removed for upgrade. Try E-Bay, they come up for auction occasionally. There's one listed right now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=90980&item =4527354878&rd=1 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > > So I'm gathering the pieces for my XL's control panel. I went looking for a > Garmin GTX 327 transponder and noticed that a number of sites wouldn't sell > the unit direct. Some want to install it, others say "Dealer Install ONLY > for Certified Aircraft". Can I install my own transponder? Must I use a > certified tech? Or do I simply need to have the FAR 91.413 (transponder) and > 91.411 (static system) certifications done every two years? > > -- Craig -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:48 AM PST US From: "Dan Knezacek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Weight & Balance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Knezacek" I am installing an EA81 on my 601 HD. It flew 24 hrs with the VW. I have mounted my rad behind the spar P51 style. So this will bring my CofG back a bit. I suppose that I will have to weigh my plane to determine where the battery will go? Assuming it will have to go behind the seats, where should the battery wires be routed? Dan Knezacek CH601 HD, EA81 power ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:48 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Weight & Balance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Dan, I mounted two batteries, 18 amp hr SLA types behind the passenger side seat between the spar and the J-member. I routed the cable over the spar, out the right first rib forward to the rib hole that aligns with just behind the main spar, inboard from there to the spar center and thru a console center to the firewall. My radiator is set 38" rear of the firewall and it's difficult to get the CG outside the envelope at any condition within the 730 to 1300 lbs. Pictures are on my engine page, the electrical page and the controls page if you need perspective. 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Weight & Balance > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Knezacek" > I am installing an EA81 on my 601 HD. It flew 24 hrs with the VW. > I have mounted my rad behind the spar P51 style. So this will bring my > CofG > back a bit. > I suppose that I will have to weigh my plane to determine where the > battery > will go? > Assuming it will have to go behind the seats, where should the battery > wires > be routed? > > Dan Knezacek > CH601 HD, EA81 power ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:34 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Transponder install --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" I did find a vendor that would sell me the Garmin transponder. Tropic Aero shipped me one, no questions asked. I found the below on the EAA site. Seems that in this case the definition of "manufacturer" is tighter: http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Transponder%20and%20Pitot%20Sta tic%20Tests.html Transponder and Pitot Static Tests Is the 24 month transponder test (per FAR 91.217 & 91.413) required for a homebuilt aircraft? How about the pitot static test (FAR 91.411)? If so, can this be done by the builder of the aircraft? If you have a transponder installed in your aircraft, you must comply with the testing requirements. The requirements of 14 CFR 91.215, 91.217, and 91.411 apply to all aircraft with such equipment installed, regardless of certification category. If you fly your aircraft under IFR, you must comply with the pitot/static test requirements called out in 14 CFR 91.411. As with transponders, this regulation applies to all aircraft, regardless of certification category. The FAR's authorize the "manufacturer" of the aircraft to conduct the tests However, the builder of an amateur-built aircraft does not meet the FAA's definition of a manufacturer. The FAA, in Order 8130.2, defines a manufacturer as a Production Approval Holder (PAH). Some examples of a PAH would be the holder of a Production Certificate (PC), a Parts Manufacturing Authority (PMA), and Technical Standards Order Authorization (TSOA). An amateur builder does not fit this definition. Thus, the amateur-builder cannot perform the transponder and pitot/static tests on his/her homebuilt. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Transponder install --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin On a homebuilt, you can install anything yourself and, according to the FARs, the manufacturer (that's you) can do the static system and transponder checks (if you have the equipment and know how). The trick is finding someone who will sell you one. Most Garmin dealers won't sell to homebuilders, Garmin won't let them. You will probably have to find a used one that was removed for upgrade. Try E-Bay, they come up for auction occasionally. There's one listed right now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=90980&item =4527354878&rd=1 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > > So I'm gathering the pieces for my XL's control panel. I went looking for a > Garmin GTX 327 transponder and noticed that a number of sites wouldn't sell > the unit direct. Some want to install it, others say "Dealer Install ONLY > for Certified Aircraft". Can I install my own transponder? Must I use a > certified tech? Or do I simply need to have the FAR 91.413 (transponder) and > 91.411 (static system) certifications done every two years? > > -- Craig -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In Phase I testing. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite now? From: Tony Bonsell --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tony Bonsell Hi Guys So I'm taking apart the rear fuse to debur and prep for riveting. Seems like a good time to scrub up the outer panels with scotchbrite, while they're flat on the table. Make sense? Any other prep I should get into while I'm here? ****************************************************** Tony Bonsell (tbonsell@luxuria.com) CI-FKF ****************************************************** ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:08 AM PST US From: "Mike H" Subject: Zenith-List: Transtar primer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mike H" Does anyone have exp. with this primer? Thanks Mike H ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:02 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite now? --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Tony: I've been hit and miss on this issue - some parts I've cleaned up nice on the outside and others I've left the ink showing. I always protect the inside. I think it would depend on where you live. I have had zero problems with corrosion in two years with material stored in my garage. I've heard some folks say their material gets corroded while stored, so if you live in one of those areas, wait. I'm in Nebraska where it's pretty dry with low humidity. Even if you Scotchbrite it, keep a close eye on the parts and prime if you see corrosion. Good luck, Scott Laughlin 601XL/Corvair N5SL Working on Engine Mount http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ DO NOT ARCHIVE Tony Bonsell wrote: So I'm taking apart the rear fuse to debur and prep for riveting. Seems like a good time to scrub up the outer panels with scotchbrite, while they're flat on the table. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:16 PM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scotchbrite now? --> Zenith-List message posted by: RURUNY@aol.com Tony, When I was ready to rivet the fuse skins together I scotchbrited both sides and coated the inside with very thinned out brush-on zinc chromate primer from petit. On outside portion I sprayed anywhere metal overlapped and a quick spray over rivet lines. All small pieces, L angle pieces and longerons I scotchebrited, alodined and sprayed tempo zinc chromate on them. I used these products because I have a West Marine store down the road from me. Go to the link below and type zinc chromate under their search area. _http://www.westmarine.com_ (http://www.westmarine.com) Brian ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:18 PM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite now? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com Gentlemen: Now I'm beginning to get concerned. I am almost done with the horizontal stabilizer (I completed the rudder at the factory workshop) and I haven't Scotchbrighted anything !! The parts were pre-treated at the factory workshop, so that (for better or worse) is what it is. Corrosion protection for the horizontal stabilizer/elevator has been to clean everything in the interior with lacquer thinner and do the rattle-can thing on ALL intrerior surfaces - minimum 2 thin coats. The exterior is virgin. I have NOT been spraying where exterior skins overlap - is this a potential problem? I thought the zinc chromate was self-etching...am I mistaken? It says advesion is 'excellent', while abrasion resistance is 'good'. Does this suggest the zinc chromate will abrade off where, let's say, the rib is riveted to the skin? I also have a 5 gallon pail of a wash primer simiar to the Cortex product recommended by ZAC that I was going to use - but I hear this is NOT a good product for corrosion protection So now I'm concerned about the rudder I built. Any expert opinions out there? Thank you Regards, Tracy Naugatuck, CT 601XL tail 86% Do Not Archive In a message dated 2/14/2005 2:07:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, nfivesl@yahoo.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Tony: I've been hit and miss on this issue - some parts I've cleaned up nice on the outside and others I've left the ink showing. I always protect the inside. I think it would depend on where you live. I have had zero problems with corrosion in two years with material stored in my garage. I've heard some folks say their material gets corroded while stored, so if you live in one of those areas, wait. I'm in Nebraska where it's pretty dry with low humidity. Even if you Scotchbrite it, keep a close eye on the parts and prime if you see corrosion. Good luck, Scott Laughlin 601XL/Corvair N5SL Working on Engine Mount http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ DO NOT ARCHIVE Tony Bonsell wrote: So I'm taking apart the rear fuse to debur and prep for riveting. Seems like a good time to scrub up the outer panels with scotchbrite, while they're flat on the table. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:16 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite now? --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Tracy: You should be fine with what you have done so far. As with painting anything, the cleaner the better and using scotchbright can give paint/primer something to stick to. I have recently started using an acid/soap wash called "ProPar" from a truck supply company. They use it on aluminum truck beds and I think there is another product called Aluma-brite that is the same thing. I use scotchbright, then wash with this acid/soap, then rinse and dry. It's amazing how well the primer sticks to the clean surface and after it's dry it doesn't want to scratch off. I used zinc chromate on some of the first parts I made without this process (I just cleaned with lacquer thinner, then sprayed) and you can scratch it off with your fingernail. I like the lacquer thinner, but this Propar really gives a good surface for paint to stick. I will prabably use this when I paint the exteror also. One last note - I also plan to put a Scotchbright pad on my DA sander (orbital sander) and go all over the outside before cleaning for final paint. I've heard this gives great results. Scott Laughlin 601XL/Corvair, N5SL http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ Since all of the above is just MY opinion and is not flying yet: DO NOT ARCHIVE Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: Now I'm beginning to get concerned. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:00 PM PST US From: "DICK WILBERS" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DICK WILBERS" ZAC rivets may be manufactured by Avdel (Aviation Development Corp) rather than Avex. I am not certain at this time, but I think it is a possibility. Dick Wilbers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivets > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" > > > I don't know the actual force values. We riveted three strips together in > a > line, using a ZAC rivet to connect strips A and B, and an AS rivet to > connect strips B and C. Using a car screw-jack, we pulled on the ends of > strips A and C. In two separate tests, the AS rivet failed with no > perceptible deformity in the ZAC rivet. Hopefully, the test jig that is > supposed to be described in the upcoming issue of ZAC newsletter will show > us how to do more accurate testing. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivets > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ozarkseller2@aol.com >> >> >> In a message dated 2/12/2005 4:56:00 P.M. Central Standard Time, >> piercetonypeggy@mail.usa.com writes: >> >> We bought some Avex rivets from Aircraft Spruce with the same part >> number >> (1604-0412) specified in the CH701 Photo >> Assembly Guide. However, our initial testing indicates that these don't >> have the shear strength provided by those from ZAC. I guess that I was >> naive in thinking that an 8-digit part number might provide some >> specificity. >> Tony Pierce >> 701 >> >> >> How much difference in shear strength does your testing indicate? >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:08 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: XL: Hatch lock and aileron trip --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Two questions: 1. Does anyone know of a good design for adding a key lock to the XL's tilt-forward canopy? 2. Does anyone have a link to a good design for adding electric aileron trim? I know I've seen one on the Web but can't remember where. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:47 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scotchbrite now? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Tony, When I assembled the wings, I cleaned with thinner, and primed with cortec. One wing is 373, and one 374. (I should have the last word on which is better in about 10 years!) -Anyway, on the fuse, I cleaned ALL components with Alumaprep, and Alodinined ALL components - including both sides of the skin. The primer adhesion to Alumaprepped surfaces is better than anything else I have tried, including scotchbrite pads. I was one of the guys who had some corrosion problems while storing skins, so I went ahead and primered the outside of the aft fuselage side skins to make sure the corrosion did not return. BTW, I also painted the bottom aft fuse, and bottom of the center wing section prior to joining the two together so that I would not have to paint the bottom of the plane after it is assembled. I think that will work in my favor later. The foremost experts on aircraft corrosion issues are the carrier aviation airframe mechanics, and when I was in a carrier based squadron, I attended the corrosion prevention supervisors course. The instructor had been teaching the course for 30 years, had 50 years experience, and instructed all corrosion control maintenece personnel in the airwing. He sang the Alodine gosphel. His sermon: Not only does it provide an excellent surface preparation for adhesion, but it provides some stand alone corrosion protection while awaiting paint. Oh, and it is cheaper than thinner anyway! Respectfully, Brandon Tucker Wings, Tail complete Fuselage on the gear. __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:28 PM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL: Hatch lock and aileron trip --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland Craig, I designed and built one for my 601HD with a forward tilting canopy, but it does take some machining to make the part. Tim Shankland Craig Payne wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > >Two questions: > >1. Does anyone know of a good design for adding a key lock to the XL's >tilt-forward canopy? > >2. Does anyone have a link to a good design for adding electric aileron >trim? I know I've seen one on the Web but can't remember where. > >-- Craig > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:21 PM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite now? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" If you use an acid wash you do not need to scotchbrite anything. The only time you need to scotchbrite is if you need to scuff paint. The acid wash will remove any contaminates, dull the surface and leave it etched and you will get an excellent adhesion with your primer. If you scotchbrite after washing, which isn't necessary, you may add contaminates and leave little scotchbrite pieces stuck under the edges of rivets. You will find those very difficult to find and remove. Of course when you paint you can find them all. However, if you insist on scotchbriting make sure you acid wash first and last. If you scotchbrite or sand before cleaning you will risk imbedding the contaminates into the metal, and then you have a possible problem which is very difficult to overcome. Contaminates come in many flavors, the most common being oil from hands and soap not rinsed off. So, once you acid wash tell your friends to keep their hands off. With the risk of sounding like a know it all, I have been painting for 40 years. Larry N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Bonsell" Subject: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite now? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tony Bonsell > > Hi Guys > > So I'm taking apart the rear fuse to debur and prep for riveting. Seems like > a good time to scrub up the outer panels with scotchbrite, while they're > flat on the table. Make sense? > > Any other prep I should get into while I'm here? > > ****************************************************** > Tony Bonsell (tbonsell@luxuria.com) CI-FKF > > ****************************************************** > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 > > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.