---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/08/05: 43 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:08 AM - get off the list (Howard Carter) 2. 12:09 AM - Re: Avex Rivets (Hunt Malcolm) 3. 12:12 AM - Re: Avex Rivets (Hunt Malcolm) 4. 04:33 AM - Re: Re; Battery questions (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 5. 04:44 AM - Re: Avex Rivets (Cdngoose) 6. 04:56 AM - Re: Re; Battery questions (Michel Therrien) 7. 06:22 AM - Re: prepaint filler for open rivets (n801bh@netzero.com) 8. 06:42 AM - Another look at the battery..... (Zed Smith) 9. 06:54 AM - Re: Best engine/prop for 701? (Larry Martin) 10. 06:54 AM - Re: prepaint filler for open rivets (Larry Martin) 11. 07:36 AM - Re: Re; Battery questions (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 12. 09:00 AM - Re: prepaint filler for open rivets (Gary Gower) 13. 09:40 AM - Re: Unfriendly responses. [Please Read] (Matt Dralle) 14. 09:55 AM - Multiple Battery Cautions (Zed Smith) 15. 10:01 AM - XL Rudder Fairing (BillSewell@aol.com) 16. 10:33 AM - Re: Another look at the battery..... (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 17. 10:42 AM - Re: thanks (etn industries ltd.) 18. 11:27 AM - Re: XL Rudder Fairing (Bryan Martin) 19. 11:30 AM - Re: XL Rudder Fairing (Jack Russell) 20. 11:41 AM - Re: Multiple Battery Cautions (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 21. 12:10 PM - Re: XL Rudder Fairing (Phil Maxson) 22. 01:09 PM - Re: XL Rudder Fairing (Larry McFarland) 23. 01:15 PM - Flaperon control rods on 701 (Johann G.) 24. 01:56 PM - Re: Flaperon control rods on 701 (Gary Gower) 25. 02:32 PM - Re: Flaperon control rods on 701 (Johann G.) 26. 04:38 PM - 701 Wing Tips (Rick) 27. 04:43 PM - Re: Flaperon control rods on 701 (NYTerminat@aol.com) 28. 04:45 PM - Re: XL Rudder Fairing (Dave Austin) 29. 04:49 PM - Re: 701 Wing Tips (NYTerminat@aol.com) 30. 04:51 PM - Re: Flaperon control rods on 701 (Tony & Peggy Pierce) 31. 04:55 PM - Re: 701 Wing Tips (NYTerminat@aol.com) 32. 05:13 PM - Re: Re; Battery questions (Tim & Diane Shankland) 33. 05:25 PM - Re: Re; Battery questions (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 34. 05:31 PM - Re: 701 Wing Tips (Johann G.) 35. 05:35 PM - Re: Flaperon control rods on 701 (Johann G.) 36. 05:44 PM - Re: Re; Battery questions (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 37. 05:55 PM - Re: Best engine/prop for 701? (Jake Reyna) 38. 06:08 PM - Instruments for sale (Steve Sharp) 39. 07:14 PM - Re: Flaperon control rods on 701 (Larry Martin) 40. 07:56 PM - Re: Best engine/prop for 701? (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 41. 07:58 PM - Re: Re; Battery questions (Jim and Lucy) 42. 08:50 PM - 701 Wing Tips & Flaperon Rods (mike.sinclair@att.net) 43. 08:51 PM - Re: Flaperon control rods on 701 (Chuck Deiterich) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:28 AM PST US From: Howard Carter Subject: Zenith-List: get off the list --> Zenith-List message posted by: Howard Carter Guys, this is not a blog for opinionated Zenith builders!! ENOUGH ALREADY!! GET BACK TO AVIATION OR GET OFF, PLEASE! Howard Carter do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Avex Rivets From: "Hunt Malcolm" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hunt Malcolm" Many thanks Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kevinbonds Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Avex Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Factory told me (if I remember correctly) something like 4900 A4's and 4700 A5's. Kevin Bonds -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hunt Malcolm Subject: Zenith-List: Avex Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hunt Malcolm" I'm sourcing materials for my plans built CH601XL. Can anyone advise the number of 1/8" and 5/32" Avex rivets required as I keep loosing count!? Malcolm Hunt **************************************************************************** ******************** The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended recipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mistake please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any copies from your system. Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the senders own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. **************************************************************************** ******************** Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external to Network Rail. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Avex Rivets From: "Hunt Malcolm" FILETIME=[278254C0:01C523B6] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hunt Malcolm" Many thanks Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of MJBTOL@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: MJBTOL@aol.com In a message dated 3/7/05 3:46:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Malcolm.HUNT@networkrail.co.uk writes: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hunt Malcolm" < > Malcolm.HUNT@networkrail.co.uk> > > I'm sourcing materials for my plans built CH601XL. Can anyone advise the > number of 1/8" and 5/32" Avex rivets required as I keep loosing count!? > > Malcolm Hunt Hello Malcolm, You will Need 5,110 A4 Rivets and 2,880 A5 Rivets. Note: This is for the 601 HD and the 601 HDS. I am not positive about the XL. I am sure the numbers will be close though. (I got these numbers Fom Nick H. when I first began building) I hope this helps. Best wishes, Mike Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external to Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended recipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mistake please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any copies from your system. Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the senders own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:25 AM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com Hello Tim: Do you, or any other lister have a schematic diagram of a dual-bus/battery system? My current thoughts are running all-electric with Corvair power...maybe a little tiny vacuum pump for an AI & DG for backup. Dual-bus sounds really good... I'm getting a Tech Inspection - my first one - on the tail assembly. My local EAA chapter is full of RV owners...I have to teach every one of them the virtues of a Zodiac. Thank you everyone! Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT 601xl tail 95% do not archive In a message dated 3/7/2005 10:36:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, tshank@megsinet.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland I too after over thirty years of driving had two batteries in two different cars die over a couple of years. The batteries went open, 12 volts no load maybe 5 volts under load. I the airplane world my solution is a two bus system. I used two 17 ah ( I believe) batteries, one for each bus. The alternator charges the batteries through two low voltage drop diodes. During starting a solenoid connects both batteries together. The two gel cells I purchased from Batteries Plus are small enough that they fit on the firewall behind my Stratus Suburu. This means that I was able to use smaller (lighter) wiring from the batteries to the solenoid and to the engine. This also means that in normal running I can run the engine and strobes, both electrically noisy devices from one bus and my radios and intercom on the other, thus reducing noise. Tim Shankland ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:31 AM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Avex Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> That number sounds close for the 601XL just switch it around, you need twice as many A5's then the A4's. Much like Scott I have all the stems saved but I will not be counting them till my plane if flying and it is too cold to do anything else. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MJBTOL@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avex Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: MJBTOL@aol.com In a message dated 3/7/05 3:46:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Malcolm.HUNT@networkrail.co.uk writes: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hunt Malcolm" < > Malcolm.HUNT@networkrail.co.uk> > > I'm sourcing materials for my plans built CH601XL. Can anyone advise the > number of 1/8" and 5/32" Avex rivets required as I keep loosing count!? > > Malcolm Hunt Hello Malcolm, You will Need 5,110 A4 Rivets and 2,880 A5 Rivets. Note: This is for the 601 HD and the 601 HDS. I am not positive about the XL. I am sure the numbers will be close though. (I got these numbers Fom Nick H. when I first began building) I hope this helps. Best wishes, Mike ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:18 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I have an architecture based on one of Bob Nuckolls diagram (http://www.aeroelectric.com/). This said, I feel my plane is pretty simple to have such an extensive electrical system. Two batteries, two master solenoids and master switches, one essential bus with associated switch, two battery busses. I'm looking into ways to reduce the weight of my aircraft before painting. Going to a one battery installation and removing associated cable and solenoid, would allow me to remove approx. 20 lbs from the plane. I'm thinking about replacing the two 18ah batteries (that are not excellent for starting the engine in cold weather, by the way) by one Odysey battery: http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc545.htm or http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc625.htm More importantly, this modification would make my plane rely on higher quality components (the battery), but with a simpler and more conventional architecture. To those who have to design electrical systems, I suggest writing the Pilot Operating Handbook prior to running any wire. When I wrote my POH, I realised the complexity of my system. (especially for fuel management where I use wing pumps for normal operation but I have a series of options and things to do for emergency with the 3rd pump and the two valves). Michel PS: I still can be influenced about these modifications.... While I presented a logic here, I'm not yet sure I want to rely on a single electrical system for powering my electrically dependent aircraft. --- Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > Crvsecretary@aol.com > > > Hello Tim: > > Do you, or any other lister have a schematic diagram > of a dual-bus/battery > system? > ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:07 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prepaint filler for open rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" Hi Guys, I'm sorting a paint scheme and got to the point where someone in my memory said "you have to fill all those pop-rivets before you paint". I'm probably going with epoxy prime and a polyurethane finish, but don't know what others have done with regard to filling those rivet heads. Is there a real good way or product to use for these? Would appreciate having some advice on this one. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at 55 hours and winter's here again. Hi Larry. On my 801 I went the Dupont route. I started with their acid wash using maroon scotchbrite and good rinse afterwards. Then I applied their two part self etching primer 615/620. I lighty buffed that with more clean pads of maroon scotchbrite. Wiped down the plane with dupont thinner and used compressed air to blow off any dust/lint. I applied 5000 series Imron and it came out pretty nice. I thought about filling all those rivets too but was told by ZAC they self seal and filling was not required. One thing to keep in mind is if you fill the holes in with filler you will have to come back and sand off the excess. This process will slightly weaken the head of the rivet by removing some metal from them. You can look at my finished product at www.haaspowerair.com. If any other zenith builder has filled them I would like to hear their story on it Ben Haas N801BH ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:37 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Another look at the battery..... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith do not archive Gentlemen - Battery location, battery size and the use of multiple batteries is really just a personal decision. I'd like to throw in a few thoughts from experience gained in nearly forty years of maintaining radio communications systems in vehicles. First of all, the "generator" is rarely found in any vehicle these days. The "alternator" is the animal most used, with the exception of solar panels, for the charging/re-charging process. That said, both eventually produce DC for the system. The battery itself functions not only as a storage device, but also as a "filter" for the not-so-pure DC produced by either generator or alternator. An oscilloscope shows "trash" of various shapes and magnitudes coming out of these charging devices. Without the battery this stuff, riding on the DC, ranges from sub-audible, through the audible range, and into the range above that of human hearing. Electrical spikes can reach 50 volts in a nominal 12 volt system. Since the battery is the filtering/smoothing device we MUST not only have a "good" battery, but the connections must be electrically "good" and conductors (wire) of sufficient size must be used so that no appreciable voltage drop occurs with normal load. So far this is nothing new.....we all knew that. What happens when there is insufficient filtering is that hash/trash/noise/spikes & other undesirable junk is running around on the battery buss.......electronic regulators "see" this stuff and therefore don't always regulate as intended simply because these regulators were intended to regulate DC, not DC with a bunch of "AC" mixed in. And this "AC" isn't always sinusodial....it may be saw-toothed, or worse. This added garbage shows up as "whine" or other nice descriptions in your headset, noise in your radio transmissions, and as the killer of nav & comm components (integrated circuits). In the case of the Rotax 912 there is a large (50,000 microFarad or so) electrolytic capacitor used to help insure filtering. In some cases "RF bypass" capacitors may be needed, even in otherwise properly operating systems. Over the years we've found that what "fixes" one particular problem won't always fix the next one, even on so-called identical vehicles. What is almost a universal truth, however, is that any battery is subject to fail at any time. Lack of electrolyte is usually considered poor practice, but we've seen thousands. "Ground" or "Earth" wires are equally as important as the "hot" conductors. The start circuit ground conductors need to be same size as the big wire to the starter, otherwise the very large current during "start" finds its path through whatever is available. If at all possible the battery ground needs to run directly to the engine block, and to the airframe.....larger wire to engine. We've seen many vehicles where the braid straps between frame, body, engine, etc were either broken or were never installed and resulted in the high-amperage starting current using the metallic brake lines as the ground path. The warming of the master cylinder after engine start sure looked suspect. This is not desirable. Large currents through your airframe rivets just isn't good either. In the Zenith 701 with the ZAC mount for the 912, there are rubber shocks between the engine and the airframe. It probably not desirable to ground the battery to the airframe near the battery itself and then depend on the mounting bolts to provide the ground path to the engine block. This might hold true for other installations. Notice that I left myself some "wiggle room" here......there are members of this list emninently more qualified to discuss the subject. Proper use of cleco pliers can wait a week. Trees beginning to bud out in North Texas, Spring can't be far away! Regards, Zed/701/R912/still working Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:22 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Best engine/prop for 701? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" Now that will open up a can of worms. Better/best is mostly opinion. For instance, I like fuel injection, liquid cooled engines with direct drive props. Some like air-cooled, some like auto conversions, some like certified engines, some like fixed props, some two blade, some three and so on and so on. You just have to figure out what you want to do and how much you can afford. Many many combinations work, which is best, I don't know. But whatever you end with, someone will think something else is better. Larry, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "hosein shafiei" Subject: Zenith-List: Best engine/prop for 701? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: hosein shafiei > > Dear Lisrers, > What is the best engine/prop for 701? > Best Regards, http://profiles.yahoo.com/shafiei6000 > > > --------------------------------- > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005 > > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:23 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prepaint filler for open rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" If you want to take the time and effort, fill the rivet ends up. My opinion is that it is not necessary or even desired. The stem of the rivet fills the hole anyway and I believe you will find that if you fill them about half of them will eventually pop anyway. Just blow them out and paint. Larry N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: prepaint filler for open rivets > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" > > I used Air :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Larry > McFarland > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: prepaint filler for open rivets > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > > Hi Guys, > I'm sorting a paint scheme and got to the point where someone > in my memory said "you have to fill all those pop-rivets before you > paint". I'm probably going with epoxy prime and a polyurethane > finish, but don't know what others have done with regard to filling those > rivet heads. Is there a real good way or product to use for these? > > Would appreciate having some advice on this one. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at 55 hours and winter's here again. > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005 > > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:58 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I wouldn't! A small 3ah battery weighs less than 2lbs (as I remember) and really does not need a seperat solenoid. If it is used for essential equipment only (second fuel pump and second ignition) a simple fuse is all that is required. I actually tajke the fuse out of the panel after each flight to disconnect the battery. Make sure the second batt is electrically isolated from the first batt with a diode. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I have an architecture based on one of Bob Nuckolls diagram (http://www.aeroelectric.com/). This said, I feel my plane is pretty simple to have such an extensive electrical system. Two batteries, two master solenoids and master switches, one essential bus with associated switch, two battery busses. I'm looking into ways to reduce the weight of my aircraft before painting. Going to a one battery installation and removing associated cable and solenoid, would allow me to remove approx. 20 lbs from the plane. I'm thinking about replacing the two 18ah batteries (that are not excellent for starting the engine in cold weather, by the way) by one Odysey battery: http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc545.htm or http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc625.htm More importantly, this modification would make my plane rely on higher quality components (the battery), but with a simpler and more conventional architecture. To those who have to design electrical systems, I suggest writing the Pilot Operating Handbook prior to running any wire. When I wrote my POH, I realised the complexity of my system. (especially for fuel management where I use wing pumps for normal operation but I have a series of options and things to do for emergency with the 3rd pump and the two valves). Michel PS: I still can be influenced about these modifications.... While I presented a logic here, I'm not yet sure I want to rely on a single electrical system for powering my electrically dependent aircraft. --- Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > Crvsecretary@aol.com > > > Hello Tim: > > Do you, or any other lister have a schematic diagram of a > dual-bus/battery system? > ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:50 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: prepaint filler for open rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower We went the same way Imron by Dupont, we didnt filled the rivets, most of them filled with the primer (Variprimer by Dupont) and the final paint. In fact the plane looks great, all the guys from the club that have looked at the plane, didnt find anything wrong... Could be that there is a sign in the hangar: "The one who notes anything not perfect, will not get a test ride" :-) :-) :-) Could help it, we liked very much how it came out. Saludos Gary Gower. 701 912S 25 hrs and counting. "n801bh@netzero.com" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" Hi Guys, I'm sorting a paint scheme and got to the point where someone in my memory said "you have to fill all those pop-rivets before you paint". I'm probably going with epoxy prime and a polyurethane finish, but don't know what others have done with regard to filling those rivet heads. Is there a real good way or product to use for these? Would appreciate having some advice on this one. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at 55 hours and winter's here again. Hi Larry. On my 801 I went the Dupont route. I started with their acid wash using maroon scotchbrite and good rinse afterwards. Then I applied their two part self etching primer 615/620. I lighty buffed that with more clean pads of maroon scotchbrite. Wiped down the plane with dupont thinner and used compressed air to blow off any dust/lint. I applied 5000 series Imron and it came out pretty nice. I thought about filling all those rivets too but was told by ZAC they self seal and filling was not required. One thing to keep in mind is if you fill the holes in with filler you will have to come back and sand off the excess. This process will slightly weaken the head of the rivet by removing some metal from them. You can look at my finished product at www.haaspowerair.com. If any other zenith builder has filled them I would like to hear their story on it Ben Haas N801BH --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:27 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unfriendly responses. [Please Read] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Okay, guys, this thread has completly wandered off the topic of Zeniths... I refer everyone to a couple of sections from the Zenith List Usage Guidelines: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. and finally: - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. Thanks guys. Let's keep the List friendly and supportive! Matt Dralle Zenith List Administrator At 10:35 PM 3/7/2005 Monday, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > >The problem with Hitler wasn't that he "spoke his mind" it was that the >German people were willing to listen, so much so that they elected him >Chancellor. You can thank the French for creating the conditions that made >that possible. Comparing this guy with Hitler is stretching the limits of >credibility. And it looks like we've just proven Godwin's Law again. :) > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" > > > > > > Bryan, I respectfully disagree with you. The germans gave Hitler the > "right > > to speak his mind" and look where it got us. This is a builders list. It > > should stay that way. If James wants to vent his opinion he can send > > indivigual messages to all of us, BUT NOT THROUGH THE LIST! > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > Jeff Glasserow > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > > > > On the other hand, He does have the right to speak his mind and we don't > > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: > >> > >> > >> I SAY KICK THIS GUY OFF THE LIST UNLESS HE'S WILLING HE'S WILLING TO SHOW > >> Jeff Glasserow > >> HDS 601 > >> N6384E > >> > >> > >>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris > >>> > >>> I am not a racists but when someone swindles you out > >-- >Bryan Martin >N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. >do not archive. > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:55 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Multiple Battery Cautions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith do not archive While I'm wound up about battery stuff..... In the case of a multiple-battery (usually two) installation, there are a few things to keep in mind. First is that you MUST isolate the two via diodes, same as is done in RV (recreational vehicle, not the aircraft) setup. These are not faint-hearted diodes from Radio Shack. Secondly, both batteries really should be of the same size, type, etc. ("Identical" is the ideal situation.) Here's an amateur explanation: If you have two batteries in PARALLEL (connected positive-to-positive, negative-to-negative) you then have the same voltage but with double the current capacity. This looks good on paper, but the drawback, WITHOUT isolation, is that one of the batteries will begin to discharge itself THROUGH the other. Here's why: All batteries have an internal "resistance" and even "identical" batteries will differ. The battery with the "lower" resistance will cause the OTHER one to discharge through that lower resistance just as if some sort of "load" (such as a lamp) were there instead of the lower resistance battery. At some point the resistance values of the two will change, swap places, (because of internal heating, voltage change, etc) and now the first is discharging through to second, then another reversal, more "discharge", et cetera, until we have exhausted both. It is at this point where we reach equilibrium.....both are dead. This is the primary reason for the isolation. Another is that if one battery suddenly develops a "shorted cell" it is no longer a 12 volt battery, and the remaining "good" battery sees a fairly large load and starts to discharge through that load. In the matter of parallel batteries which are NOT alike, some of the same problems arise even though both are "good". The actual rocket science behind this is best left to automotive (battery) engineers, but note that even on the larger pickup trucks, and other equipments with multiple battery setups, all are of the same size. This isn't intended to start an uproar, merely as a a caution......Detroit does some things for a reason. Most folks just were never aware of the "why" on the isolation diodes. Regards, "Professor Zed"/etc do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:17 AM PST US From: BillSewell@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: XL Rudder Fairing --> Zenith-List message posted by: BillSewell@aol.com I was just wondering if anyone has any advice on fitting the fiberglass rudder fairing that mounts on top of the stabilizer in front of the rudder. From the drawings, it appears that the forward edge goes under the rear top skin. It seams that I will need to trim quite a bit off the fiberglass fairing in order to make it fit correctly. Did anyone else have a similar experience? Also, the drawings indicate that the fairing is riveted to L angles on the stabilizer and to the top rear skin. Has anyone installed the fairing with screws instead in order to allow easy removal for inspection of the upper elevator cable? Thanks, Bill Sewell ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:43 AM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another look at the battery..... --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Thanks Zed, very useful as the E system goes together on this 701. Jerry Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:46 AM PST US From: "etn industries ltd." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: thanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "etn industries ltd." dear all, sorry for delay in reply to cause confusion 1} my zac invoice nunber is 16280 dt march 2004 2} i just use only one email for aircraft related mails and my other mails and its normal for our company evryone to sign just by company name. my name by the way is sudhir {as u can see emial address } 3}i belong to indian origin and stay in china , and i hate it when somebody says anything bad about any of these countries out of prejudice. 4}about troubles in china i just infrom list being a foreigner here i m still officially first home builder here{if i can finish } and trust me till date i even dont know when i finish this thing will chinese or even indian governments allow me to fly it or just might use some policy to call my work "terrorist activity" other normal problems here are- you dont get tool- u dont get material -and when u try to import even via dhl- u need license from govt{need apply 2 weeks in advance to get it} .- and i paid 200 % duty on my till now bought parts and tools., 5} im from good business school so i can read .,but not chinese{all laaw here is in local language not in english so practically im illitrate here in law} 6}the indian company i was telling group about {m/s agni aviation in bangalore} are authorised by zenith aircraft as their dealer , and i was just amazed to see prices so just wanted evryone to share. 7}im not struggling because of lack of money or anything ,its just too stuipid laws where i live ,, regards to all africans and others Dirk Slabbert wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" Hey hey guys, cut this crap, lets get some things straight: This is a builders forum, not a place for some indian businessman to peddle his ( copied?) wares, in direct competition of ZAC. Exchanging info on various building experiences is our only interest. There were some complaints on said businessmen, which were masterly turned into racicst allegations, completely off the point. Notice this "builder " is from China, so why does he take offence to remarks on indian businessmen? Also notice, there are no names signed to his posts on this list, we are replying to some " industries" who is this guy anyway? Check the ZAC site, there are no builders listed in China. Perhaps its time for mr. " etn industries" to come clean, at least tell us your name, builder number, plans number, or ZAC invoice number, this way we know you are real, regardless of your colour, creed or race, we all do this for the love of aviation. If this guy is of such great honest standing, great company, how many years in business, why is he struggling? just check their website, just about anything you want, some pieces of 6061 cannot be a problem. Sorry, this old lion in Africa is not easily fooled, enough of this. Dirk. 701 SP Kit # 5228 Tail and wings done, talk about strugling!! most people here cannot even read, forget tools. ----- Original Message ----- From: etn industries ltd. Subject: Zenith-List: thanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "etn industries ltd." thanks to everyone, specially to those who rediculed me ,because without them i wouldnt have known that in the list there are such wonderfull friends. do not archive regards, Etn INDUSTRIES LTD. 2209,howard johnson, no.500 ,xinjiang road,shanghai 13512171905 021-63801497 regards, Etn INDUSTRIES LTD. 2209,howard johnson, no.500 ,xinjiang road,shanghai 13512171905 021-63801497 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Rudder Fairing From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > --> Zenith-List message posted by: BillSewell@aol.com > > I was just wondering if anyone has any advice on fitting the fiberglass > rudder fairing that mounts on top of the stabilizer in front of the rudder. > From > the drawings, it appears that the forward edge goes under the rear top skin. > It seams that I will need to trim quite a bit off the fiberglass fairing in > order to make it fit correctly. Did anyone else have a similar experience? Yes, I recall trimming a fair amount off to fit it. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:01 AM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Rudder Fairing --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Bill: Your right. A lot of trimming is necessary. I did it a little at a time until I got a pretty good fit. I also used rivnuts to fasten it so I can remove it because I deviated from the plans a little and placed the turnbuckle for the upper horn under the fiberglass instead of on the lower control yoke. This just made more sense to me and now I can adjust it and safety wire it much more easy. Jack in Clovis CA BillSewell@aol.com wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: BillSewell@aol.com I was just wondering if anyone has any advice on fitting the fiberglass rudder fairing that mounts on top of the stabilizer in front of the rudder. From the drawings, it appears that the forward edge goes under the rear top skin. It seams that I will need to trim quite a bit off the fiberglass fairing in order to make it fit correctly. Did anyone else have a similar experience? Also, the drawings indicate that the fairing is riveted to L angles on the stabilizer and to the top rear skin. Has anyone installed the fairing with screws instead in order to allow easy removal for inspection of the upper elevator cable? Thanks, Bill Sewell ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:39 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Multiple Battery Cautions From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Both my isolation diodes (I use two in parralel) come from Radio Hack rated at amps each. My primary batt is 17 AH and the second batt is 3AH.... I use the alternator to charge the main batt without a diode (i.e at 14.5V) and the second batt gets charged at about 13V. The reason being is there is a forward volt drop on the diodes. As the second batt needs to charged at about 13V anyway (according to spec) this works out pretty well. Even if the second batt had a shorted cell the alternator is huge in comparison and it will not drag it down...If it pullas anymore than 10 amps it will also blow the fuse which I have in line with the isolation diodes. I'm not sure I see a problem with this set up, with an isolation diode yes but with the diode it would appear fine.. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Multiple Battery Cautions First is that you MUST isolate the two via diodes, same as is done in RV (recreational vehicle, not the aircraft) setup. These are not faint-hearted diodes from Radio Shack. Secondly, both batteries really should be of the same size, type, etc. ("Identical" is the ideal situation.) Here's an amateur explanation: If you have two batteries in PARALLEL (connected positive-to-positive, negative-to-negative) you then have the same voltage but with double the current capacity. This looks good on paper, but the drawback, WITHOUT isolation, is that one of the batteries will begin to discharge itself THROUGH the other. Here's why: All batteries have an internal "resistance" and even "identical" batteries will differ. The battery with the "lower" resistance will cause the OTHER one to discharge through that lower resistance just as if some sort of "load" (such as a lamp) were there instead of the lower resistance battery. At some point the resistance values of the two will change, swap places, (because of internal heating, voltage change, etc) and now the first is discharging through to second, then another reversal, more "discharge", et cetera, until we have exhausted both. It is at this point where we reach equilibrium.....both are dead. This is the primary reason for the isolation. Another is that if one battery suddenly develops a "shorted cell" it is no longer a 12 volt battery, and the remaining "good" battery sees a fairly large load and starts to discharge through that load. In the matter of parallel batteries which are NOT alike, some of the same problems arise even though both are "good". The actual rocket science behind this is best left to automotive (battery) engineers, but note that even on the larger pickup trucks, and other equipments with multiple battery setups, all are of the same size. This isn't intended to start an uproar, merely as a a caution......Detroit does some things for a reason. Most folks just were never aware of the "why" on the isolation diodes. Regards, "Professor Zed"/etc do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:06 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Rudder Fairing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" Yes, I had to trim the fiberglass fairing a considerable amount to get it to fit correctly, and also it took a lot of trimming on the rudder to make it look nice. I messed up and didn't check that the flat surface on the fiberglass faring was even with the bottom of the rudder, so I had to re-do it. If the one side of the flat surface is a little higher than the other, the rudder will rub on it as it swings through its travel. It's not hard to do, it just takes a little playing around with to get it straight and even. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair >From: BillSewell@aol.com >Subject: Zenith-List: XL Rudder Fairing >Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:59:59 EST > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: BillSewell@aol.com > >I was just wondering if anyone has any advice on fitting the fiberglass >rudder fairing that mounts on top of the stabilizer in front of the >rudder. From >the drawings, it appears that the forward edge goes under the rear top >skin. > It seams that I will need to trim quite a bit off the fiberglass fairing >in >order to make it fit correctly. Did anyone else have a similar >experience? <> ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:06 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Rudder Fairing --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Bill, The fairing can be mounted easily using Tinnermans or Rivnuts whichever you prefer but one screw up front and two each side should be enough. I made my own but you can see an early digital image here of it and the screw positions. Comes off without removing rudder. www.macsmachine.com/images/rudder/full/fitfairing.gif Larry McFarland - 601HDS BillSewell@aol.com wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: BillSewell@aol.com > >I was just wondering if anyone has any advice on fitting the fiberglass >rudder fairing that mounts on top of the stabilizer in front of the rudder. From >the drawings, it appears that the forward edge goes under the rear top skin. > It seams that I will need to trim quite a bit off the fiberglass fairing in >order to make it fit correctly. Did anyone else have a similar experience? > >Also, the drawings indicate that the fairing is riveted to L angles on the >stabilizer and to the top rear skin. Has anyone installed the fairing with >screws instead in order to allow easy removal for inspection of the upper >elevator cable? > >Thanks, > >Bill Sewell > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:38 PM PST US From: "Johann G." Subject: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Hello list members. I managed to cut the gear strut fitting and bend it to the correct angle, so that I could continue fitting the wings struts. It will have to be welded again after the wing fitting is complete. However, there is another problem installing the flaperon control rods. The drawings are incorrect in the rod lengths. My 4th edition 06/2001 drawings indicate the rod length of 415 for the lower rods, and 365 for the upper. These measurements do not match up with the fitting of my flaperons. Can anyone building or flying Zenith 701 tell me what length rods they have on their setup? According to my setup, the measurement between lower rods ends is 395 mm and the upper should be 425 mm. Does this sound like your setup? Hope you can help. Best regards. Johann G. Iceland Zenith 701 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:59 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Johann, If there is no response sooner than Saturday... I will check it in my plane at the Club. You are closer to finish, this is great! Saludos Gary Gower. "Johann G." wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Hello list members. I managed to cut the gear strut fitting and bend it to the correct angle, so that I could continue fitting the wings struts. It will have to be welded again after the wing fitting is complete. However, there is another problem installing the flaperon control rods. The drawings are incorrect in the rod lengths. My 4th edition 06/2001 drawings indicate the rod length of 415 for the lower rods, and 365 for the upper. These measurements do not match up with the fitting of my flaperons. Can anyone building or flying Zenith 701 tell me what length rods they have on their setup? According to my setup, the measurement between lower rods ends is 395 mm and the upper should be 425 mm. Does this sound like your setup? Hope you can help. Best regards. Johann G. Iceland Zenith 701 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:35 PM PST US From: "Johann G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Thank you Gary. Yes it is so close, it hurts. :-) but in a good way. After five years of building, the excitement is so tense, that nothing else gets even a chance to interrupt me. My wife has here honey doe's list close by , but it will have to wait until this is finished. Best wishes, Johann G. Iceland. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > Johann, > > If there is no response sooner than Saturday... I will check it in my plane at the Club. > You are closer to finish, this is great! > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > > > "Johann G." wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." > > Hello list members. > > I managed to cut the gear strut fitting and bend it to the correct angle, so that I could continue fitting the wings struts. It will have to be welded again after the wing fitting is complete. > > However, there is another problem installing the flaperon control rods. The drawings are incorrect in the rod lengths. > My 4th edition 06/2001 drawings indicate the rod length of 415 for the lower rods, and 365 for the upper. > These measurements do not match up with the fitting of my flaperons. > Can anyone building or flying Zenith 701 tell me what length rods they have on their setup? > According to my setup, the measurement between lower rods ends is 395 mm and the upper should be 425 mm. > Does this sound like your setup? > > Hope you can help. > > Best regards. > Johann G. > Iceland > Zenith 701 > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:06 PM PST US From: Rick Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Wing Tips --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Looking at the ZAC manual, it appears they want the wing tip skin to be formed and rivet over, (on top of), the fiberglass tip. Is that OK or does the skin need to go UNDER the fiberglass tip? I hate to have a skin edge facing forward. Thoughts?? Low&slow, Rick Rick Orlando, FL http://www.geocities.com/n701rr/index.html --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:50 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com JOHANN I am currently building a new 701 kit and according to the 11/2004 7-C-1 dwg. the lower rod lenght is 365 with a rod end center to center of 395. The upper rod lenght is 365 with a center to center lenght at 405. Hope that helps Bob Spudis CH-701 tail complete starting wings ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:15 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Rudder Fairing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" I installed mine with four Dzus fasteners. Real easy to remove. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:41 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Wing Tips --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Rick I looked at the cd that Zenith sent with my kit and the skin definitely goes behind the fiberglass tip. Bob Spudis CH-701 just started my wings ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:14 PM PST US From: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" Hi Johann... We didn't agree with the 415 & 365 lengths either. I will measure ours tomorrow and let you know how ours came out. Tony Pierce 701/912ULS/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johann G." Subject: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." > > Hello list members. > > I managed to cut the gear strut fitting and bend it to the correct angle, > so that I could continue fitting the wings struts. It will have to be > welded again after the wing fitting is complete. > > However, there is another problem installing the flaperon control rods. > The drawings are incorrect in the rod lengths. > My 4th edition 06/2001 drawings indicate the rod length of 415 for the > lower rods, and 365 for the upper. > These measurements do not match up with the fitting of my flaperons. > Can anyone building or flying Zenith 701 tell me what length rods they > have on their setup? > According to my setup, the measurement between lower rods ends is 395 mm > and the upper should be 425 mm. > Does this sound like your setup? > > Hope you can help. > > Best regards. > Johann G. > Iceland > Zenith 701 > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:56 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Wing Tips --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Rick Sorry I answered too soon, a closer look showed that it is installed OVER the fiberglass wing tip. Bob Spudis ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:08 PM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland Tracy, I'll have to go down to the shop and bring it up then get it into an electronic format. Send me your e-mail address and I'll e-mail it to you. By the way I looked into the vacuum pumps for flight instruments. It takes several pumps two at least three if you want some redundancy, they were expensive several hundred dollars each and noisy. I finally just threw in the towel and went all electric, much easier to provide redundancy, dual buses. The only downside it that it is EXPENSIVE. Tim Shankland Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com > > >Hello Tim: > >Do you, or any other lister have a schematic diagram of a dual-bus/battery >system? > >My current thoughts are running all-electric with Corvair power...maybe a >little tiny vacuum pump for an AI & DG for backup. Dual-bus sounds really >good... > >I'm getting a Tech Inspection - my first one - on the tail assembly. My >local EAA chapter is full of RV owners...I have to teach every one of them the >virtues of a Zodiac. > >Thank you everyone! > > >Tracy Smith >Naugatuck, CT >601xl tail 95% >do not archive > > >In a message dated 3/7/2005 10:36:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, >tshank@megsinet.net writes: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland > > >I too after over thirty years of driving had two batteries in two >different cars die over a couple of years. The batteries went open, 12 >volts no load maybe 5 volts under load. I the airplane world my solution >is a two bus system. I used two 17 ah ( I believe) batteries, one for >each bus. The alternator charges the batteries through two low voltage >drop diodes. During starting a solenoid connects both batteries >together. The two gel cells I purchased from Batteries Plus are small >enough that they fit on the firewall behind my Stratus Suburu. This >means that I was able to use smaller (lighter) wiring from the batteries >to the solenoid and to the engine. This also means that in normal >running I can run the engine and strobes, both electrically noisy >devices from one bus and my radios and intercom on the other, thus >reducing noise. > >Tim Shankland > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:41 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hmm...On the expense side of things it depends on what you want, but if you look at Dynon's they may look expensive ($2k last time I looked) but you get both gyro instruments (AI and DG) plus pretty much all of your primary flight instruments. Whats more they are all solid state, no nasty mechanical parts to wear out. I know several RV's that are using them for IFR work. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland --> Tracy, I'll have to go down to the shop and bring it up then get it into an electronic format. Send me your e-mail address and I'll e-mail it to you. By the way I looked into the vacuum pumps for flight instruments. It takes several pumps two at least three if you want some redundancy, they were expensive several hundred dollars each and noisy. I finally just threw in the towel and went all electric, much easier to provide redundancy, dual buses. The only downside it that it is EXPENSIVE. Tim Shankland Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com > > >Hello Tim: > >Do you, or any other lister have a schematic diagram of a >dual-bus/battery system? > >My current thoughts are running all-electric with Corvair power...maybe >a little tiny vacuum pump for an AI & DG for backup. Dual-bus sounds >really good... > >I'm getting a Tech Inspection - my first one - on the tail assembly. My >local EAA chapter is full of RV owners...I have to teach every one of >them the virtues of a Zodiac. > >Thank you everyone! > > >Tracy Smith >Naugatuck, CT >601xl tail 95% >do not archive > > >In a message dated 3/7/2005 10:36:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, >tshank@megsinet.net writes: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland > > >I too after over thirty years of driving had two batteries in two >different cars die over a couple of years. The batteries went open, 12 >volts no load maybe 5 volts under load. I the airplane world my solution >is a two bus system. I used two 17 ah ( I believe) batteries, one for >each bus. The alternator charges the batteries through two low voltage >drop diodes. During starting a solenoid connects both batteries >together. The two gel cells I purchased from Batteries Plus are small >enough that they fit on the firewall behind my Stratus Suburu. This >means that I was able to use smaller (lighter) wiring from the batteries >to the solenoid and to the engine. This also means that in normal >running I can run the engine and strobes, both electrically noisy >devices from one bus and my radios and intercom on the other, thus >reducing noise. > >Tim Shankland > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:26 PM PST US From: "Johann G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Wing Tips --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Hello Rick. I did not like it either, so I put the fiberglass over the skin. I had to cut an reshape the upper corner of the fiberglass to fit it properly. You can make it out on my homepage. Just go to Zenith and then wings. www.gi.is/fis Best regards, Johann G. Iceland. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Wing Tips > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick > > Looking at the ZAC manual, it appears they want the wing tip skin to be formed and rivet over, (on top of), the fiberglass tip. Is that OK or does the skin need to go UNDER the fiberglass tip? I hate to have a skin edge facing forward. Thoughts?? > > Low&slow, > Rick > > > Rick > Orlando, FL > http://www.geocities.com/n701rr/index.html > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:11 PM PST US From: "Johann G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Hello Bob. Thank you for the info. Yes, this is what I had changed in my drawings according to the corrections from Zenith, but these figures do not match with my setup. The lower rod figures are ok, but the upper is way out. You may find it out when you have installed the wings and are installing the flaperons. By then, I should have the figures corrected on my set-up and will let you all know what the length is of my flaperon rods. Regards, Johann G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com > > JOHANN > > I am currently building a new 701 kit and according to the 11/2004 7-C-1 > dwg. the lower rod lenght is 365 with a rod end center to center of 395. > > The upper rod lenght is 365 with a center to center lenght at 405. > > Hope that helps > > Bob Spudis > CH-701 tail complete starting wings > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:50 PM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com Hello Frank: I agree with you completely except for one thing... What do you do for backup - run TWO Dynon units ?? I sure would hate to be in hard IFR and have the unit quit...that's why I was thinking AI, DG, and Altimeter as steam-gauge backups. Am I approaching this all wrong? Yes, I know electric AI units are available, but they are well over $2k as well !! That leaves an electric DG ??? As always, thank you for your help and thoughts. Regards, Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT 601xl tail 95% do not archive In a message dated 3/8/2005 8:26:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, frank.hinde@hp.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hmm...On the expense side of things it depends on what you want, but if you look at Dynon's they may look expensive ($2k last time I looked) but you get both gyro instruments (AI and DG) plus pretty much all of your primary flight instruments. Whats more they are all solid state, no nasty mechanical parts to wear out. I know several RV's that are using them for IFR work. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland --> Tracy, I'll have to go down to the shop and bring it up then get it into an electronic format. Send me your e-mail address and I'll e-mail it to you. By the way I looked into the vacuum pumps for flight instruments. It takes several pumps two at least three if you want some redundancy, they were expensive several hundred dollars each and noisy. I finally just threw in the towel and went all electric, much easier to provide redundancy, dual buses. The only downside it that it is EXPENSIVE. Tim Shankland Crvsecretary@aol.com wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com > > >Hello Tim: > >Do you, or any other lister have a schematic diagram of a >dual-bus/battery system? > >My current thoughts are running all-electric with Corvair power...maybe >a little tiny vacuum pump for an AI & DG for backup. Dual-bus sounds >really good... > >I'm getting a Tech Inspection - my first one - on the tail assembly. My >local EAA chapter is full of RV owners...I have to teach every one of >them the virtues of a Zodiac. > >Thank you everyone! > > >Tracy Smith >Naugatuck, CT >601xl tail 95% >do not archive > > >In a message dated 3/7/2005 10:36:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, >tshank@megsinet.net writes: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland > > >I too after over thirty years of driving had two batteries in two >different cars die over a couple of years. The batteries went open, 12 >volts no load maybe 5 volts under load. I the airplane world my solution >is a two bus system. I used two 17 ah ( I believe) batteries, one for >each bus. The alternator charges the batteries through two low voltage >drop diodes. During starting a solenoid connects both batteries >together. The two gel cells I purchased from Batteries Plus are small >enough that they fit on the firewall behind my Stratus Suburu. This >means that I was able to use smaller (lighter) wiring from the batteries >to the solenoid and to the engine. This also means that in normal >running I can run the engine and strobes, both electrically noisy >devices from one bus and my radios and intercom on the other, thus >reducing noise. > >Tim Shankland > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:15 PM PST US From: "Jake Reyna" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Best engine/prop for 701? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jake Reyna" The best solution for the 701 would be the Rotax 912. Why? There are two well developed FWF's available, one from Zenith and the other from Skyshops.org. This is also the most expensive solution, but you get what you pay for. Skyshops offers the same package used by Czech Aircraft Works and it has everything you need. And it's watercooled so it solves issues related to the high angle of attack and engine cooling. $18,000 seems high for an engine, FWF and instruments, but it's a small price to pay once you're in the air flying with a very reliable solution. That being said, if you're willing to do a bit more work then the Jabiru 2200 or a Subaru conversion would work well, along with some other options. It's been said many times by individuals with much more experience than I, What does the designer recommend? http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-engine.html Jake do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:38 PM PST US From: Steve Sharp Subject: Zenith-List: Instruments for sale --> Zenith-List message posted by: Steve Sharp Because of changing needs and desires I have the following instruments for sale. I would like to sell them as a package for $550 and I will pay the shipping anywhere in the lower 48 (okay, I'll entertain reasonable offers). Instruments are in good condition (except where noted): Turn Coordinator 12v w/ connector Electric Gyro Corp Attitude Indicator Vacuum R.C. Allen Overhauled and certified by Keystone Instruments Directional Gyro Vacuum Sigma Tek Compass Panel Mount Airpath W/ illumination (external at 12:00) Air Speed Indicator Cessna 0 to 200knots Rate of Climb Probably needs calibration Vacuum System Filters Qty: 2 - new 1J4-6 BeechModels D55, 58, 58A Piper Models PA-31-300, PA-31-325, PA-31P, PA-31T, PA-34-200T Vacuum Regulating Valve Airborne Manufacturing Co. Model 2H3-2 No. 8A Please contact me off list, I will try to get some photos up someplace in the next couple of days. Thanks, Steve Sharp Knoxville, TN stevensharp25@comcast.net ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:03 PM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" Hey Johann, you may have to do what I did. Since I am using PegaStol wings the Zac rods weren't even close. If you are using the flap control stick, pull it in the second notch. Set the flaps themselves at 30 degrees. You can do that my leveling your fuselage front to rear and using a inclinometer to set the flaps at 30 degrees. Make sure your control stick is centered, then measure from point to point to get total rod length including rod ends. This will get you real close and then you can adjust later. Make sure you have approximately 11 degrees deflection for the ailerons with the flaps down. That's the way I had to do it. Larry, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johann G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." > > Hello Bob. > > Thank you for the info. > Yes, this is what I had changed in my drawings according to the corrections > from Zenith, but these figures do not match with my setup. > The lower rod figures are ok, but the upper is way out. You may find it out > when you have installed the wings and are installing the flaperons. > By then, I should have the figures corrected on my set-up and will let you > all know what the length is of my flaperon rods. > > Regards, > Johann G. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com > > > > JOHANN > > > > I am currently building a new 701 kit and according to the 11/2004 7-C-1 > > dwg. the lower rod lenght is 365 with a rod end center to center of 395. > > > > The upper rod lenght is 365 with a center to center lenght at 405. > > > > Hope that helps > > > > Bob Spudis > > CH-701 tail complete starting wings > > > > > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005 > > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:26 PM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Best engine/prop for 701? --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com In a message dated 3/8/2005 3:38:53 AM Central Standard Time, shafiei8000@yahoo.ca writes: What is the best engine/prop for 701? After lot's of research, and much consideration of engines in use here in the US, I chose the ZAC recommended 912 ULS/ WARP Drive prop. Seems to be a reliable combination, sized right for the 701, and if I ever need to sell it, it makes since. Also, It being that both the 701 and the 912 are certificated type designs,, . That helps to keep the Experimental E,,,, a small, e, in mho. Jerry ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:41 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re; Battery questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy At 04:55 AM 3/8/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > I'm thinking about replacing the two 18ah >batteries (that are not excellent for starting the >engine in cold weather, by the way) by one Odysey >battery: Michel could you tell us what the brand of batteries you are using that do not crank the engine over very well in cold weather. I will need some extra good cranking power because my starter drives the engine via the ring gear mounted to the top belt pulley which makes it a 2-1 ratio compared to stock. Jim Pollard Merlin Ont ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:01 PM PST US From: mike.sinclair@att.net Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Wing Tips & Flaperon Rods 0.00 MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary 0.00 RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE Received: by and from look like IP addresses --> Zenith-List message posted by: mike.sinclair@att.net Rick I put my tip skins on the inside also. Looks better, and just as easy to do as putting them outside. Johann I checked my lower pushrods and from rod end (at the bolts) to rod end was 380mm. At the 395mm dimension I would have had interference between the bellcranks and the baggage compartment floor. Will need to tape a tape measure to the upper rods to check that dimension, but couldn't locate my metric tape this evening. When I installed them I positioned everything at neutral and while holding a piece of all thread in place put a piece of masking tape on it to mark where to make the cut. Never did measure this to the plans while doing this part, just cut and fitted to where it looked right. Same for the upper rods. I did cut the all thread to where there was very little thread left in the rod ends. Actually had to cut about another 1/4 inch off the upper rods to be able to put the rod ends on and still get the design flaperon travel. Keep on Keepin' on! Mike Rick I put my tip skins on the inside also. Looks better, and just as easy to do as putting them outside. Johann I checked my lower pushrods and from rod end (at the bolts) to rod end was 380mm. At the 395mm dimension I would have had interference between the bellcranks and the baggage compartment floor. Will need to tape a tape measure to the upper rods to check that dimension, but couldn't locate my metric tape this evening. When I installed them I positioned everything at neutral and while holding a piece of all thread in place put a piece of masking tape on it to mark where to make the cut. Never did measure this to the plans while doing this part, just cut and fitted to where it looked right. Same for the upper rods. I did cut the all thread to where there was very little thread left in the rod ends. Actually had to cut about another 1/4 inch off the upper rods to be able to put the rod ends on and still get the design flaperon travel. Keep on Keepin' on! Mike ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:33 PM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" Johann, When I did my rods, I looked at the amount of movement of the bellcranks, centered them (middle of their motion) and measured the rod length. I purposely cut them as long as possible and threaded them into the fittings as far as they would go. Then I could shorten them later if need be. (Clearly I couldn't make them longer.) They are still at the original length. As a note, I found more than once that the lengths on the plans were close but when I measured the exact distances there were differences. Which could be just small differences adding up as I built the airplane. I set the flaperons per the plans, but today when I was flying I noticed the wing to the horizon was a bit pitched up in cruise. This tells me that I may need to lower the flaperons to lower the wing angle of attack. I may try this later on and pass along what I find. Chuck D. N701TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johann G." Subject: Zenith-List: Flaperon control rods on 701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." > > Hello list members. > > I managed to cut the gear strut fitting and bend it to the correct angle, so that I could continue fitting the wings struts. It will have to be welded again after the wing fitting is complete. > > However, there is another problem installing the flaperon control rods. The drawings are incorrect in the rod lengths. > My 4th edition 06/2001 drawings indicate the rod length of 415 for the lower rods, and 365 for the upper. > These measurements do not match up with the fitting of my flaperons. > Can anyone building or flying Zenith 701 tell me what length rods they have on their setup? > According to my setup, the measurement between lower rods ends is 395 mm and the upper should be 425 mm. > Does this sound like your setup? > > Hope you can help. > > Best regards. > Johann G. > Iceland > Zenith 701 > >