---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/14/05: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:10 AM - Re: Cover strip info on an HD (Larry McFarland) 2. 07:48 AM - Zenith Kit-Builders Barbecue at Sun N Fun (Jim Pellien) 3. 08:21 AM - elevator trim (Grant Corriveau) 4. 08:29 AM - Re: Cover strip info on an HD (Trevor Page) 5. 08:55 AM - Center Console (N5SL) 6. 09:23 AM - Re: elevator trim (David Barth) 7. 10:34 AM - Re: elevator trim (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 8. 10:35 AM - Re: Center Console (N5SL) 9. 02:39 PM - Re: Cover strip info on an HD (Russell Johnson) 10. 02:45 PM - Re: elevator trim (Gary Gower) 11. 04:38 PM - elevator trim (Doug Mattson) 12. 04:39 PM - Re: 2004 Flight Simulator (Bob Miller) 13. 05:54 PM - Re: 2004 Flight Simulator (Larry McFarland) 14. 05:58 PM - Re: elevator trim (Dave Austin) 15. 06:17 PM - Re: elevator trim (Gary Gower) 16. 06:41 PM - Re: 2004 Flight Simulator (Robert Schoenberger) 17. 06:47 PM - Re: elevator trim (Paul Moore) 18. 07:05 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Mark Stauffer) 19. 07:21 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun (Mark Townsend) 20. 07:28 PM - Trimming top middle skin 601XL (Mark Stauffer) 21. 07:28 PM - Re: elevator trim (Mark Stauffer) 22. 07:33 PM - Re: 2004 Flight Simulator (Jerry Latimer) 23. 07:48 PM - New question for the group (Jeffrey Glasserow) 24. 09:13 PM - Re: Trimming top middle skin 601XL (Rico Voss) 25. 09:25 PM - Re: New question for the group (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 26. 09:32 PM - Re: Trimming top middle skin 601XL (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 27. 09:56 PM - Re: New question for the group (Brandon Tucker) 28. 10:36 PM - Re: elevator trim (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:54 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cover strip info on an HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Trevor, Detail A didn't mean very much to me as a sound element for tensioning the cover and the lack of a cover strip on the bottom was worsened by having to align the lower wing edges into the individual guides which makes attachment of the wing by one person a real pain. I've 3/8" to 1/2" gap at the bottom and made short channel segments with 6-32 U-nuts each end that are put into the bottom of the wing. Screws come up thru the strip into the U-nuts and secure the strip. Pictures are found at the precise addresses below and describe much better what was done. The U-nuts are purchased from McMaster Carr as part number 94808A102 and J-nuts eleswhere were 94809A102. Both accept 6-32 screws. Catalog 103 phone 1-630-833-0300. They have a site on the web where you can see these. Package of 50 pcs is about $9.00 plus shipping and handling. Very good people to deal with. The HD should be an easier one to do because of the constant section wing which differs from my HDS, but the problem is essentially the same. My nose bolt secures the front of the cover as you see. The continuing wrap goes under the strip and uses the first screw to tie the strip to it and keep it from sliding rearward. I used the plate nuts at the top rear of the strip per plans, but these U-nuts are much easier to clip over a hole and use. Ultimately, the tension between rear plate nuts and the front nose bolt make the strip behave while the U-nuts secure the edges. I get no floating edges in flight and can still attach or remove a wing by myself with a little effort. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly1/wingtocentersection/full/coverassy.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly1/wingtocentersection/full/loretainer.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/viewrtwingjoint.jpg http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/viewwingjoint.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/viewtopwingjoint.gif Hope this is helpfull, Larry McFarland - 601HDS Trevor Page wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page > >Can anyone give me some tips about the cover strip on an HD? > >I'm in the finishing stages now, I hung the wings yesterday and started >on the cover strip. What I'm not fully understanding is the bottom >front retention support on page 6-V-15. The assembly is listed as >"Detail A". > >I see that the part shows 2 A5 rivets with a 3/16" washer as a spacer >for the bottom skin but I don't get how you are supposed to install >this as the gap between the outboard and inboard wings is too narrow >once you get the wing on. Am I supposed to bolt this assembly to 6V15-1 >with the cover strip and carefully hang the wing then screw in the 2 >screws at the trailing edge of the cover strip during wing >installation?? > >Does anyone have a better method of securing the bottom front of the >cover strip?? I don't have a single picture of the assembly in my photo >collection! > >The plans on the same page also show some pressure tabs (3 of them) >used to keep the cover strip in place against the top skins because of >lift. Anyone have a neat tricks on how to do this? > >Thanks in advance > >Trevor Page >601HD. Cover strip is the LAST thing to do!!! Woohoo > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:13 AM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith Kit-Builders Barbecue at Sun N Fun 0.00 MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" I would like to attend the Zenith barbecue on April 14th. Our SportsPlanes.Com team is sharing a booth with Zenith at Sun N Fun. Zenith will be selling their kits and SportsPlanes.Com will market the factory-built 601XL (ELSA and SLSA versions) as well as the Alarus VFR/IFR training aircraft. I'm sure that other members of the SportsPlanes.Com team will want to participate in the barbecue. I'll pass the barbecue details to our President, Josh Foss. Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic SportsPlanes.com (MASPL) 703-313-4818 www.Pellien.com/MASPL.htm www.sportsplanes.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Cdngoose Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> The Webmasters BBQ: Thursday April 14, 5:00 pm: "www.ch601.org and www.ch701.com webmasters will be hosting a BBQ at their campsite for builders and wannabes of Zenith Aircraft. Bring your drinks and lawn chairs and meet many of those builders you know from email postings. We'll supply the burgers and dogs (no-obligation donations will be happily accepted). The BBQs will be fired up from 5:00 pm until everyone is fed on April 14th. Please RSVP using the SUN-N-FUN BBQ FORM so that we may know how many to prepare for and to have your name tag ready. The location will be posted at the Zenith booth along with the pre-registered name tags. We look forward to seeing you there!" So Far we have a pre register of 62 people it should prove to be quite an event. Remember we are fellow builders as well with no commercial intent towards this event. The Folks from Zenith are also saying that they will drop by but cannot commit to it. Mark/Jon/David Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: elevator trim From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Mattson" > > I notice that me elevator trim tab is pointing all the way down. Is the > easiest way to fix this redoing the horizontal stabilizer mounts and tilting > the front of the stabilizer down? Doug, we need a little more information. Is the elevator trim tab all the way down at the end of a flight after you get out of the plane? (i.e. this was its setting for landing?)... In that case - and assuming the airplane trimmed out okay on final approach at say 70 to 80 mph, then this is normal. Just be sure to reset it to a more centered position for the next takeoff. If however, you mean that it was at this position in cruise flight then something's probably not right. Please elaborate... -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:07 AM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cover strip info on an HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page Wow, thanks Larry. I Like your idea a lot better than the plans. A lot simpler and more effective. Trevor On Mar 14, 2005, at 10:09 AM, Larry McFarland wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > > > Trevor, > Detail A didn't mean very much to me as a sound element for tensioning > the cover and the lack of a cover strip on the bottom was worsened by > having to align the lower wing edges into the individual guides which > makes attachment > of the wing by one person a real pain. I've 3/8" to 1/2" gap at the > bottom and made short channel segments with 6-32 U-nuts each end that > are put into the bottom of the wing. Screws come up thru the strip > into > the U-nuts and secure the strip. Pictures are found at the precise > addresses below and describe much better what was done. The U-nuts are > purchased from McMaster Carr as part number 94808A102 and J-nuts > eleswhere were 94809A102. Both accept 6-32 screws. Catalog 103 phone > 1-630-833-0300. They have a site on the web where you can see these. > Package of 50 pcs is about $9.00 plus shipping and handling. Very good > people to deal with. > The HD should be an easier one to do because of the constant section > wing which differs from my HDS, but the problem is essentially the > same. My nose bolt secures the front of the cover as you see. The > continuing wrap goes under the strip and uses the first screw to tie > the > strip to it and keep it from sliding rearward. I used the plate nuts > at > the top rear of the strip per plans, but these U-nuts are much easier > to > clip over a hole and use. Ultimately, the tension between rear plate > nuts and the front nose bolt make the strip behave while the U-nuts > secure the edges. I get no floating edges in flight and can still > attach or remove a wing by myself with a little effort. > > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly1/wingtocentersection/ > full/coverassy.gif > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly1/wingtocentersection/ > full/loretainer.gif > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/viewrtwingjoint.jpg > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/viewwingjoint.gif > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/viewtopwingjoint.gif > > Hope this is helpfull, > Larry McFarland - 601HDS > > Trevor Page wrote: > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page >> >> Can anyone give me some tips about the cover strip on an HD? >> >> I'm in the finishing stages now, I hung the wings yesterday and >> started >> on the cover strip. What I'm not fully understanding is the bottom >> front retention support on page 6-V-15. The assembly is listed as >> "Detail A". >> >> I see that the part shows 2 A5 rivets with a 3/16" washer as a spacer >> for the bottom skin but I don't get how you are supposed to install >> this as the gap between the outboard and inboard wings is too narrow >> once you get the wing on. Am I supposed to bolt this assembly to >> 6V15-1 >> with the cover strip and carefully hang the wing then screw in the 2 >> screws at the trailing edge of the cover strip during wing >> installation?? >> >> Does anyone have a better method of securing the bottom front of the >> cover strip?? I don't have a single picture of the assembly in my >> photo >> collection! >> >> The plans on the same page also show some pressure tabs (3 of them) >> used to keep the cover strip in place against the top skins because of >> lift. Anyone have a neat tricks on how to do this? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Trevor Page >> 601HD. Cover strip is the LAST thing to do!!! Woohoo >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:01 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Zenith-List: Center Console --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Hi guys: Thanks for all the private emails on radios and transponders. I was able to find a radio thanks to the many replies and I've got an idea of what I want in a transponder. I have a new request. My drawings don't show details on a center console but I know there are 601's that have them. Does anybody have a drawing or photo of a center console that works well? I plan to use this space for my two fuel gauges and maybe a few engine monitoring gauges (oil and fuel pressure perhaps). Here's what I was able to do this weekend with my panel: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_13_05_Plate3.jpg Thanks again for the help, Scott Laughlin N5SL (Reserved) http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ 90% to go. DO NOT ARCHIVE --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:49 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Hi Bryan. I have a copy of a fix designed just for this. It uses a lever arm fixed to the flap torque tube - much like the lever arm already there but located more in the center of the fuselage. There are several holes along its length for adjusting. A spring is attached to the lever arm through these holes and as the flaps increase so does the tension on the spring. The other end of the spring is attached via control cable to an attach point on the Y-stick above the point there the Y-stick attaches to the aileron torque tube. Simply put the increase of flap increases the tension on the spring and thus provides pull-back on the Y-stick. I have the drawings at work and can send them tomorrow if you like or post them to the CH601.org website. I believe these drawings came from Czech Aircraft Works so I would ask permission first to post them. You listening Chip? David --- bryanmmartin@comcast.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > bryanmmartin@comcast.net > > You don't understand, My trim tab is physically > incapable of dealing with flap settings beyond about > 5 degrees. The trim tab limits out and still won't > trim the airplane. No electronic box will solve this > problem. I need somthing that will literally pull > harder on the elevator when the flaps are down. > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. > do not archive > David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org __________________________________ http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:11 AM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Someone already sent me those drawings off list. I am going to look into it. Thanks. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive > --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth > > Hi Bryan. > I have a copy of a fix designed just for this. It > uses a lever arm fixed to the flap torque tube - much ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:54 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Center Console --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL I found it in my drawings. The drawing is listed as "Three-way Selector Valve" in the index, but is labeled "Center Console/3 way fuel selector/gascolator." It's 6-K-2. Thanks Alex for the reply. Scott. DO NOT ARCHIVE --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:15 PM PST US From: "Russell Johnson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cover strip info on an HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Russell Johnson" > Wow, thanks Larry. I Like your idea a lot better than the plans. A lot > simpler and more effective. > +++++++++ Trevor: I put some pictures of my wingjoint covers on my web site at http://members.cox.net/rsj10 Russell do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:03 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello Bryan, I know that the 701 is a diferent airplane, we had the same problem and solved it making the trim tab double the size, we made a "doubler" that was two times the width and riveted with the little rivets from the trailing edge. It solved the problem In the 601 has to be (for aesthetics) another aproach because the trim is part of the elevator... But I think is the solution the trim tab area is not enough. Saludos Gary Gower (the only deviation from the plans in our plane- non cosmetic-) 701 912S bryanmmartin@comcast.net wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net You don't understand, My trim tab is physically incapable of dealing with flap settings beyond about 5 degrees. The trim tab limits out and still won't trim the airplane. No electronic box will solve this problem. I need somthing that will literally pull harder on the elevator when the flaps are down. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne > > There is an electronic box that does this. See: > > http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus.htm ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:51 PM PST US From: "Doug Mattson" Subject: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Mattson" I am unable to trim the nose at cruise speed on my 601XL. The trim runs to the limit and I still have to apply back pressure to the stick. The tab is traveling to the limit ok. I think I will try loading the baggage compartment. Doug Mattson ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:06 PM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 2004 Flight Simulator --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Robert, I have tried the Zodiac 601 on FS 2002 and have been really disappointed with the results. It could be my joystick (Logitech Extreme 3D Pro), but the sim aircraft seems to perform more like an Extra than a Zodie, and thus is of no value for practice. I'd love to hear from anyone who's had a better experience. Bob ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:36 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 2004 Flight Simulator --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Bob, Last fall, I purchased 2004 Flight Simulator and downloaded the 601hds in 3 colors. I found the speed and responses very close to my bird. An earlier 2000 Flight Simulator was good in pitch and roll, but roll & climb were speedy. In the $29 2004 version, I fly regularly between local airports and Moline where I can taxi right to my own hangar. The taxiways, signage, interaction with the ATC, and flight characteristics are unbelieveably good for rainy days.. You are able to set the flight characteristics to acquire your best comparative. I use an AMD 1400 with 512K memory, a 64K memory graphics card & MS sidewinder 5 button joystick. All are aged by todays coming 32-64 bit standards. Larry McFarland - 601hds Bob Miller wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > >Robert, >I have tried the Zodiac 601 on FS 2002 and have been really disappointed >with the results. It could be my joystick (Logitech Extreme 3D Pro), but >the sim aircraft seems to perform more like an Extra than a Zodie, and thus >is of no value for practice. I'd love to hear from anyone who's had a >better experience. >Bob > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:53 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Talking a 601HDS now, but it would seem that any a/c should fly at normal cruise speed setting with the "usual" loading with the elevator trim at neutral position. This gives minimum drag. To do that I had to adjust the horizontal stab angle of attack. Bit of trial and error. After doing that, if full flaps on approach cannot be trimmed out, then the trim tab needs to be bigger to the point that you can trim it out. That would still leave the trim tab neutral under "normal" cruise conditions. IMHO. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:21 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower In my opinion, Go twice (or more) on your weight and balance... Just in case. Do it with all the weights, half and full tanks, passenger weight, solo, bagage, etc. Just to check out this important part of safety in any plane.. My two cents... Saludos Gary Gower Doug Mattson wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Mattson" I am unable to trim the nose at cruise speed on my 601XL. The trim runs to the limit and I still have to apply back pressure to the stick. The tab is traveling to the limit ok. I think I will try loading the baggage compartment. Doug Mattson --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:23 PM PST US From: "Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 2004 Flight Simulator --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" Larry . . . I was the one who started this thread. I was hoping to find a download for the 701 that worked with FS 2004, but no one responded with a positive answer. There were a couple of downloads from years earlier, but I doubt if they'd work on FS 2004. If I'm missing something, someone on the list let me know. Thx. Robert Schoenberger 55% 701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 2004 Flight Simulator > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > > Bob, > Last fall, I purchased 2004 Flight Simulator and downloaded the 601hds > in 3 colors. I found the speed and responses > very close to my bird. An earlier 2000 Flight Simulator was good in > pitch and roll, but roll & climb were speedy. > In the $29 2004 version, I fly regularly between local airports and > Moline where I can taxi right to my own > hangar. The taxiways, signage, interaction with the ATC, and flight > characteristics are unbelieveably good for rainy days.. > You are able to set the flight characteristics to acquire your best > comparative. I use an AMD 1400 with 512K > memory, a 64K memory graphics card & MS sidewinder 5 button joystick. > All are aged by todays coming 32-64 bit standards. > > Larry McFarland - 601hds > > Bob Miller wrote: > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" >> >> >>Robert, >>I have tried the Zodiac 601 on FS 2002 and have been really disappointed >>with the results. It could be my joystick (Logitech Extreme 3D Pro), but >>the sim aircraft seems to perform more like an Extra than a Zodie, and >>thus >>is of no value for practice. I'd love to hear from anyone who's had a >>better experience. >>Bob >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:40 PM PST US From: "Paul Moore" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" I tend to agree with Dave here. With all the talk about trim issues in cruise, could there be a problem with the recommended stab incidence? Is it fairly 'normal' to have to decrease the incidence after initial flight testing? If this is so, has it improved from early to later models? I'm getting a little nervous.... Paul Moore XL-0200 Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Austin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Talking a 601HDS now, but it would seem that any a/c should fly at normal cruise speed setting with the "usual" loading with the elevator trim at neutral position. This gives minimum drag. To do that I had to adjust the horizontal stab angle of attack. Bit of trial and error. After doing that, if full flaps on approach cannot be trimmed out, then the trim tab needs to be bigger to the point that you can trim it out. That would still leave the trim tab neutral under "normal" cruise conditions. IMHO. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:49 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" Arrrgh!!! My EAA chapter is having a cookout that same evening. I have to attend, I'm the president and I was the one who organized it! I'll be at the show Tuesday through Friday/Saturday all depending on the weather. I look forward to meeting builders/friends from past shows and making new friends. Will you be having any social hours other than Thursday? Id be more than happy to contribute a beverage of choice! Name your brand! Mark Stauffer 601XL N624MK (reserved) Tail finished, wings 95%, fuselage 90% clecoed Buying avionics and engine at SnF?? Odenton, MD Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Cdngoose Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> The Webmasters BBQ: Thursday April 14, 5:00 pm: "www.ch601.org and www.ch701.com webmasters will be hosting a BBQ at their campsite for builders and wannabes of Zenith Aircraft. Bring your drinks and lawn chairs and meet many of those builders you know from email postings. We'll supply the burgers and dogs (no-obligation donations will be happily accepted). The BBQs will be fired up from 5:00 pm until everyone is fed on April 14th. Please RSVP using the SUN-N-FUN BBQ FORM so that we may know how many to prepare for and to have your name tag ready. The location will be posted at the Zenith booth along with the pre-registered name tags. We look forward to seeing you there!" So Far we have a pre register of 62 people it should prove to be quite an event. Remember we are fellow builders as well with no commercial intent towards this event. The Folks from Zenith are also saying that they will drop by but cannot commit to it. Mark/Jon/David Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:42 PM PST US From: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Mark you and anyone else are more then welcome to drag there lawn chair over to our site for an evening of Zenith chat. Mark Townsend do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" > > Arrrgh!!! My EAA chapter is having a cookout that same evening. I have to > attend, I'm the president and I was the one who organized it! > > I'll be at the show Tuesday through Friday/Saturday all depending on the > weather. I look forward to meeting builders/friends from past shows and > making new friends. > > Will you be having any social hours other than Thursday? Id be more than > happy to contribute a beverage of choice! Name your brand! > > Mark Stauffer > 601XL N624MK (reserved) > Tail finished, wings 95%, fuselage 90% clecoed > Buying avionics and engine at SnF?? > Odenton, MD > > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Cdngoose > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > > The Webmasters BBQ: Thursday April 14, 5:00 pm: > > "www.ch601.org and www.ch701.com webmasters will be hosting a BBQ at > their campsite for builders and wannabes of Zenith Aircraft. Bring your > drinks and lawn chairs and meet many of those builders you know from > email postings. We'll supply the burgers and dogs (no-obligation > donations will be happily accepted). The BBQs will be fired up from > 5:00 pm until everyone is fed on April 14th. Please RSVP using the > SUN-N-FUN BBQ FORM so that we may know how many to prepare for and to > have your name tag ready. The location will be posted at the Zenith > booth along with the pre-registered name tags. We look forward to seeing > you there!" > > > So Far we have a pre register of 62 people it should prove to be quite > an event. Remember we are fellow builders as well with no commercial > intent towards this event. The Folks from Zenith are also saying that > they will drop by but cannot commit to it. > > Mark/Jon/David > > Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario > Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 > President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter > www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:19 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: Zenith-List: Trimming top middle skin 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" Fellow builders, Did you trim the aft edge of the top middle skin where it overlaps the top rear skin? Mine fits very smoothly but at the center (top) of the skin there is 30mm between the rivet line and the aft edge of the skin. At the sides it's right about 10mm. Just wanted a second opinion before I got happy with the snips! Thanks! Mark Stauffer 601XL Odenton, MD Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:23 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" This is my experience with my Cherokee. For take-off I use neutral trim or just one turn from neutral either way depending on the load and it gives me a good climb out of 85mph. In cruise I have to trim nose down and in landing Im pretty much trimmed all the way back to nose up. In other words my neutral trim is for takeoff, not for cruise or landing. Your mileage may vary. Mark Stauffer 601XL Odenton, MD Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Moore Subject: RE: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" I tend to agree with Dave here. With all the talk about trim issues in cruise, could there be a problem with the recommended stab incidence? Is it fairly 'normal' to have to decrease the incidence after initial flight testing? If this is so, has it improved from early to later models? I'm getting a little nervous.... Paul Moore XL-0200 Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Austin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Talking a 601HDS now, but it would seem that any a/c should fly at normal cruise speed setting with the "usual" loading with the elevator trim at neutral position. This gives minimum drag. To do that I had to adjust the horizontal stab angle of attack. Bit of trial and error. After doing that, if full flaps on approach cannot be trimmed out, then the trim tab needs to be bigger to the point that you can trim it out. That would still leave the trim tab neutral under "normal" cruise conditions. IMHO. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:28 PM PST US From: "Jerry Latimer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 2004 Flight Simulator --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jerry Latimer" I just downloaded the CH701 and flew it us FS2004. The plane worked fine and exhibited great STOL performance. I did get a warning when I chose the CH701, but I ignored it and chose it anyway. Seems to work fine. From the down load page it was written for FS2000. Jerry Latimer Do No Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Schoenberger Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 2004 Flight Simulator --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" Larry . . . I was the one who started this thread. I was hoping to find a download for the 701 that worked with FS 2004, but no one responded with a positive answer. There were a couple of downloads from years earlier, but I doubt if they'd work on FS 2004. If I'm missing something, someone on the list let me know. Thx. Robert Schoenberger 55% 701 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:11 PM PST US From: "Jeffrey Glasserow" Subject: Zenith-List: New question for the group clamav-milter version 0.80j on hathor 1.96 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" I finally got my 601 HDS out of the shop this weekend and was able to fly it for the first time. ( This was a used purchase and had lots of little gremlins that needed attention before I considered it safe to fly...) After an interesting first take-off with the pitch on the prop set at 10 degrees (mechanics mistake, got a free do over) had a REAL interesting loop around the field in which it took about 10 minutes to get to pattern altitude. Got down OK and had the pitch re-adjusted to 13 degrees, which seems to work pretty good with the Lycoming 0-235 (we could split hairs here and say 12.5 would be the best compromise, but we'll wait and see). Took the plane up again and my instructor had me fly the plane at 65 mph with no gain or loss of altitude. To maintain 65 mph I had to fly the plane quite nose high. I should note that we were close to gross weight at about 1170 lbs and well within CG limits. We then descended to normal pattern altitude, flew the pattern, and at the recommended speed for final, 77-75 mph for final, the plane was so nose high I couldn't see the runway. We aborted the landing and on the next go round flew final at a steeper angle of attack, 80-85 mph which let me see the runway. We came over the fence at 80 mph, flared flat, and as soon as the mains hit the ground, planted the nose wheel so the plane would not keep flying. This worked well all afternoon on a very crosswindy day. Now, my question is, does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the plane want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it would do in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my guess is...Nose high. I'm REALLY open to suggestions here. Since the plane is painted in USAF colors, a few of the guys at the field thought I was emulating combat descents into unsecured landing areas... High, Steep and Fast! They commented on how well the plane handled the crosswinds and how well it stuck to the ground once it was put down. Again, ANY suggestions would be appreciated relating to the nose high position. Additionally, my instructor is now duly qualified in the 601 HDS (and for insurance purposes probably the HD and the XL) and is willing to give instruction locally in the West Central area of NJ. If intersted let me know and I'll pass your informatation along to him and have him contact you. He has over 18,000 hrs, was a Navy test pilot and flew f-4's in Viet Nam. He now flys for UPS. Thanks, Jeff Glasserow CH601 HDS N6384E ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:13 PM PST US From: Rico Voss Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trimming top middle skin 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss --- Mark Stauffer wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" > > > > Did you trim the aft edge of the top middle skin where it > overlaps the top > rear skin? Mark-- I just drilled the same pieces. I see no reason to keep the excess material, so I'm planning to trim mine down to about 10mm. Likewise for the excess on the sides of the top skins. Unless we hear of a reason to keep it.... --tioRico, XL, fuse, Kansas City __________________________________ http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:19 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New question for the group --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net This doesn't sound like a problem with the horizontal stab. If the stabilizer were set to the wrong pitch it would affect the control forces needed to fly at a slow speed not the actual pitch attitude at that speed. The horizontal stabilizer mostly affects pitch trim not pitch attitude. The pitch attitude is controlled more by the angle of incidence of the main wing. I would think that the first thing you need to check is the accuracy of your air speed indicator. Do you have an outside static source? If your static source is inside the cockpit, your ASI may be inaccurate. The cockpit is a low pressure area which will cause the ASI to read high, so you would be flying slower than you think. This is usually more of a problem at higher speeds but I suppose it could cause a ten mph error at approach speeds. If the ASI is fairly accurate at approach speeds, then you might check the angle of incidence of the main wing. Maybe the original builder some how installed the wing with the trailing edge a little too high or the leading edge a little too low. This would result in too low an angle of incidence and would cause the plane to fly nose high. The wing would be at nearly the same angle of attack as it normally would but the fuselage would be nose up. This sort of mistake would not be hard to make on the XL due to the way the wings attach to the fuselage, it would also not be too difficult to fix. I'm not very familiar with the wing-fuselage attachment of the HD/HDS so I don't know how this problem could result on that model. Could the wing root section have a twist built into it resulting in a lower incidence, could the outer panels be installed at a nose down angle or could the wing-fuselage join be off a bit? On the other hand, this might be normal behavour for an HDS. Remember, this advice is worth every penny you paid for it. :) -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" > > again and my instructor had me fly the plane at 65 mph with no gain or loss > We then descended to normal pattern altitude, flew the > pattern, and at the recommended speed for final, 77-75 mph for final, the > plane was so nose high I couldn't see the runway. We aborted the landing > and on the next go round flew final at a steeper angle of attack, 80-85 mph > which let me see the runway. > We came over the fence at 80 mph, flared flat, and as soon as the mains hit > the ground, planted the nose wheel so the plane would not keep flying. This > worked well all afternoon on a very crosswindy day. Now, my question is, > does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the plane > want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it would do > in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my guess > is...Nose high. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:13 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trimming top middle skin 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net I seem to recall trimming some off of that piece but it was quite a while ago. I wouldn't be suprised to find that it requires some trimming. Most of the pieces of the fuselage did. I don't recall having to trim any of the bulkheads but most of the flat sheets needed trimming. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" > > > Fellow builders, > > Did you trim the aft edge of the top middle skin where it overlaps the top > rear skin? Mine fits very smoothly but at the center (top) of the skin there > is 30mm between the rivet line and the aft edge of the skin. At the sides > it's right about 10mm. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:30 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: New question for the group --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker >Now, my question is,does anyone think my tail incidence might be >mis-adjusted to make the planewant to fly nose high all the time? -while the incidence of the tail influences nose authority, it has little to do with the angle of attack required to maintain altitude. At what speed does the boundary layer start separating? How much room do you have between your head and the canopy? I would take a look at the wing incidence as Brian suggested, but I can't imagine that the original builder was off by a significant amount. As brian mentioned - you get what you pay for! R/ Brandon __________________________________ http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:48 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: RE: Zenith-List: elevator trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Well, the tail section of the XL is basically identical to the HD but the XL is a foot longer and has flaps and mine was built from an early set of plans. This could just be the teething problems of a new design or it could be an issue unique to certain engine installations on the XL. Re-pitching the horizontal stabilizer on my XL wasn't difficult. It took me about four hours to make the modification and I flew it that same day. Now I can fly at cruise with the trim tab near its neutral position at gross weight and aft CG. The only issue I have with the system right now is that at low power settings or large flap deflections, you have to hold the nose up with the stick. This is not a big problem, you just have to keep the stick back on short final. I rarely need the flaps for landing, I can usually get it down and stopped in less than a thousand feet with no flaps. I will say one thing about the XL, I've never bounced a landing. When the mains touch the ground, it's done flying. You can bring it in hot and it won't float, just don't let the nose drop too quick. I would like to be able to set it up for slow flight with full flaps in "sight seeing" mode and that will require some more modification. I would rather not increase the size of the trim tab, I already have more than enough nose down trim and don't need to add any more. I suppose I could add an extension that bends down so that it adds more nose up authority without adding much more nose down, but that would probably add more drag also. I think adding spring trim to the system would be the best thing. The spring would help balance the weight of the elevator so it wouldn't drop so much when the prop blast is reduced, linking it to the flap control would help compensate for flap deployment, and it would actually reduce the excessive nose down authority of the system. Right now I think I can trim beyond Vne which, of course, isn't desireable. Like I said, its not a big problem so I'm not in any big hurry to make the modificaton. Just somthing to ad to my "to do" list. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" > > I tend to agree with Dave here. With all the talk about trim issues in > cruise, could there be a problem with the recommended stab incidence? Is it > fairly 'normal' to have to decrease the incidence after initial flight > testing? If this is so, has it improved from early to later models? I'm > getting a little nervous....