Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:59 AM - Re: elevator trim (Paul Moore)
2. 05:17 AM - Re: New question for the group (cgalley)
3. 05:43 AM - Re: Trimming top middle skin 601XL (Al Young)
4. 06:02 AM - Re: New question for the group (Dave Austin)
5. 07:15 AM - Re: New question for the group (Phil Maxson)
6. 07:15 AM - Re: New question for the group (Larry McFarland)
7. 07:34 AM - CH640 Painting (Adams Stephen - Doctors Hosp Augusta)
8. 07:41 AM - Re: 2004 Flight Simulator (Keith Ashcraft)
9. 07:55 AM - Re: CH640 Painting (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
10. 09:07 AM - Nose high landing position (Stanley Challgren)
11. 09:19 AM - Re: New question for the group (Leo Corbalis)
12. 09:39 AM - Re: New question for the group (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
13. 10:33 AM - Re: New question for the group (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
14. 11:21 AM - Re: New question for the group ()
15. 11:25 AM - Re: Nose high landing position ()
16. 11:27 AM - Re: 2004 Flight Simulator (n801bh@netzero.com)
17. 11:29 AM - Re: New question for the group ()
18. 11:48 AM - Re: New question for the group (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
19. 12:42 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 28 Msgs - 03/14/05 (Grant Corriveau)
20. 04:49 PM - Re: New question for the group (Dave Austin)
21. 10:59 PM - Ch 801 specs with floats (David Karlsberg)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
I was also thinking about thrust line, engine offset, and different engine
sources. It is quite common in the RC plane world to have a plane that
climbs out of sight with power if the crank centerline points more than a
few degrees down, or won't trim to maintain altitude if it points up. It's
almost always the cause of dramatic trim changes with power changes. And
off by just a few degrees is enough to have a pretty definite effect. It
might be worth checking to see how close the crankshaft thrust line is to
the airframe long axis.
Paul Moore
XL - 0200
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bryanmmartin@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: elevator trim
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
Well, the tail section of the XL is basically identical to the HD but the XL
is a foot longer and has flaps and mine was built from an early set of
plans. This could just be the teething problems of a new design or it could
be an issue unique to certain engine installations on the XL.
Re-pitching the horizontal stabilizer on my XL wasn't difficult. It took me
about four hours to make the modification and I flew it that same day. Now I
can fly at cruise with the trim tab near its neutral position at gross
weight and aft CG. The only issue I have with the system right now is that
at low power settings or large flap deflections, you have to hold the nose
up with the stick. This is not a big problem, you just have to keep the
stick back on short final. I rarely need the flaps for landing, I can
usually get it down and stopped in less than a thousand feet with no flaps.
I will say one thing about the XL, I've never bounced a landing. When the
mains touch the ground, it's done flying. You can bring it in hot and it
won't float, just don't let the nose drop too quick.
I would like to be able to set it up for slow flight with full flaps in
"sight seeing" mode and that will require some more modification. I would
rather not increase the size of the trim tab, I already have more than
enough nose down trim and don't need to add any more. I suppose I could add
an extension that bends down so that it adds more nose up authority without
adding much more nose down, but that would probably add more drag also. I
think adding spring trim to the system would be the best thing. The spring
would help balance the weight of the elevator so it wouldn't drop so much
when the prop blast is reduced, linking it to the flap control would help
compensate for flap deployment, and it would actually reduce the excessive
nose down authority of the system. Right now I think I can trim beyond Vne
which, of course, isn't desireable. Like I said, its not a big problem so
I'm not in any big hurry to make the modificaton. Just somthing to ad to my
"to do" list.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
>
> I tend to agree with Dave here. With all the talk about trim issues
> in cruise, could there be a problem with the recommended stab
> incidence? Is it fairly 'normal' to have to decrease the incidence
> after initial flight testing? If this is so, has it improved from
> early to later models? I'm getting a little nervous....
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: New question for the group |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Ground adjustable props are neat but you found out that too low a pitch is
just as bad as too high a pitch. What is your static rpm? If it is too high,
then you are under pitched and will go way over red-line plus not get
anywhere (limits top speed.) This is what happened when it was set at 10.
I'll let Larry McFarland tell you what he is running. It is on a different
engine but the same plane with same type of prop.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Glasserow" <jeffglass@starband.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: New question for the group
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow"
> <jeffglass@starband.net>
>
> I finally got my 601 HDS out of the shop this weekend and was able to fly
> it
> for the first time. ( This was a used purchase and had lots of little
> gremlins that needed attention before I considered it safe to fly...)
> After
> an interesting first take-off with the pitch on the prop set at 10 degrees
> (mechanics mistake, got a free do over) had a REAL interesting loop around
> the field in which it took about 10 minutes to get to pattern altitude.
> Got
> down OK and had the pitch re-adjusted to 13 degrees, which seems to work
> pretty good with the Lycoming 0-235 (we could split hairs here and say
> 12.5
> would be the best compromise, but we'll wait and see). Took the plane up
> again and my instructor had me fly the plane at 65 mph with no gain or
> loss
> of altitude. To maintain 65 mph I had to fly the plane quite nose high.
> I
> should note that we were close to gross weight at about 1170 lbs and well
> within CG limits. We then descended to normal pattern altitude, flew the
> pattern, and at the recommended speed for final, 77-75 mph for final, the
> plane was so nose high I couldn't see the runway. We aborted the landing
> and on the next go round flew final at a steeper angle of attack, 80-85
> mph
> which let me see the runway.
> We came over the fence at 80 mph, flared flat, and as soon as the mains
> hit
> the ground, planted the nose wheel so the plane would not keep flying.
> This
> worked well all afternoon on a very crosswindy day. Now, my question is,
> does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the
> plane
> want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it would
> do
> in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my guess
> is...Nose high.
> I'm REALLY open to suggestions here. Since the plane is painted in USAF
> colors, a few of the guys at the field thought I was emulating combat
> descents into unsecured landing areas... High, Steep and Fast! They
> commented on how well the plane handled the crosswinds and how well it
> stuck
> to the ground once it was put down. Again, ANY suggestions would be
> appreciated relating to the nose high position.
> Additionally, my instructor is now duly qualified in the 601 HDS (and for
> insurance purposes probably the HD and the XL)
> and is willing to give instruction locally in the West Central area of NJ.
> If intersted let me know and I'll pass your informatation along to him and
> have him contact you. He has over 18,000 hrs, was a Navy test pilot and
> flew f-4's in Viet Nam. He now flys for UPS.
> Thanks,
> Jeff Glasserow
> CH601 HDS
> N6384E
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Trimming top middle skin 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
Mark- I had the same problem. Quite a large overlap. When my EAA tech
advisor inspected me, he noticed it and suggested that I add a rivet line 10
mm in from the rear edge of the forward top skin. So I did.
Regards,
Al Young 601XL
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: New question for the group |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Jeff,
My 601HDS will not fly "up on the step" to use a boating term, until the
airspeed is above 95 mph with only pilot.
With passenger it needs 110 mph. If hot and wet air I need 85% power to get
up on the step with passenger.
Changing the horizontal stab won't change that. It all a matter of lift.
With passenger I use 80 mph approach.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 5
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| Subject: | New question for the group |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
I have to agree with a couple of the other guys on this one. I'm not
convinced the tail angle of incidence is off. It could just be a new sight
picture for you, since the plane is new to you. Particularly if you just
lowered the seat height. When you fly straight and level, do you have to
trim the nose down a lot? Is the elevator spending more time in the down
position?
I have a template that I built for my XL stabilizer/elevator that I used to
attach it to the tail. If the HDS uses the same set up, we could check
yours with it to see if it is level with the longerons. That should only
take a few minutes.
By the way, I assume the HDS stab is supposed to be level with the rear
longerons, but you could check the plans and let me know.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair.
>From: "Jeffrey Glasserow" <jeffglass@starband.net>
>Subject: Zenith-List: New question for the group
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow"
><jeffglass@starband.net>
>
>I finally got my 601 HDS out of the shop this weekend and was able to fly
>it
>for the first time.
<<SNIP>>
>Now, my question is,
>does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the plane
>want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it would
>do
>in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my guess
>is...Nose high.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: New question for the group |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Jeff,
Congratulatons on your plane.
I'd adjust your ailerons down a half an inch each side to see if that
makes the difference. Certainly check the
stabilzer and elevator for parallel with the top longeron. I fly with a
16-degree pitch 70" Warp Drive and
had started at lower pitches but progressively went forward. It may
take a little bit of experimentation, but
the ailerons should be able to get your nose on the horizon if you take
them both down a bit.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS - Stratus Subaru
Jeffrey Glasserow wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" <jeffglass@starband.net>
>
>I finally got my 601 HDS out of the shop this weekend and was able to fly it
>for the first time. ( This was a used purchase and had lots of little
>gremlins that needed attention before I considered it safe to fly...) After
>an interesting first take-off with the pitch on the prop set at 10 degrees
>(mechanics mistake, got a free do over) had a REAL interesting loop around
>the field in which it took about 10 minutes to get to pattern altitude. Got
>down OK and had the pitch re-adjusted to 13 degrees, which seems to work
>pretty good with the Lycoming 0-235 (we could split hairs here and say 12.5
>would be the best compromise, but we'll wait and see). Took the plane up
>again and my instructor had me fly the plane at 65 mph with no gain or loss
>of altitude. To maintain 65 mph I had to fly the plane quite nose high. I
>should note that we were close to gross weight at about 1170 lbs and well
>within CG limits. We then descended to normal pattern altitude, flew the
>pattern, and at the recommended speed for final, 77-75 mph for final, the
>plane was so nose high I couldn't see the runway. We aborted the landing
>and on the next go round flew final at a steeper angle of attack, 80-85 mph
>which let me see the runway.
>We came over the fence at 80 mph, flared flat, and as soon as the mains hit
>the ground, planted the nose wheel so the plane would not keep flying. This
>worked well all afternoon on a very crosswindy day. Now, my question is,
>does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the plane
>want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it would do
>in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my guess
>is...Nose high.
>I'm REALLY open to suggestions here. Since the plane is painted in USAF
>colors, a few of the guys at the field thought I was emulating combat
>descents into unsecured landing areas... High, Steep and Fast! They
>commented on how well the plane handled the crosswinds and how well it stuck
>to the ground once it was put down. Again, ANY suggestions would be
>appreciated relating to the nose high position.
>Additionally, my instructor is now duly qualified in the 601 HDS (and for
>insurance purposes probably the HD and the XL)
>and is willing to give instruction locally in the West Central area of NJ.
>If intersted let me know and I'll pass your informatation along to him and
>have him contact you. He has over 18,000 hrs, was a Navy test pilot and
>flew f-4's in Viet Nam. He now flys for UPS.
>Thanks,
>Jeff Glasserow
>CH601 HDS
>N6384E
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Adams Stephen - Doctors Hosp Augusta <Stephen.Adams@HCAhealthcare.com>
Hello everyone. I am finishing up my CH640. Currently I am painting using
the AFS primer/sealer and 2 part polyurethane. I have never sprayed paint
before, so I think my experience is similar to most builders. The main
colors are white and red with metalic blue and metalic yellow accent
stripes. I did try rolling a few of the access covers to see how it would
look and was not happy with either the process or the results. This is great
paint although there is a bit of a learning curve. I painted the wheel pants
first to get a feel for the process. My first attempts resulted in a bit of
a mess and I had to sand them down and re-shoot the paint. The second
attempt came out great. I have now completed the wheel pants, HT, and rudder
and am really happy with the results. I am hanging the parts from the
ceiling so almost all of the painting has been on vertical surfaces and runs
haven't been a problem after figuring out a few things. I found that my shop
is not exactly dust free and I get less dust on vertical surfaces. The paint
has a great shine. A few things I have learned...
1. Take your time. I ran out of paint and tried to quickly mix up another
batch. I did not allow it to sit for a few minutes after mixing in the
catalyst before spraying. When I sprayed it, there were some large droplets
which did not flatten out when dry.
2. Spray the first 2 coats very light and allow each to tack up well. If too
heavy, the final coat will run.
3. Make sure the paint and catalyst are room temperature. I warmed the shop
but the paint and catalyst were still very cold. When mixed cold, the
pigment precipitates out and makes a mess.
4. On the final coat, you build up the paint slowly with multiple passes
over a fairly small area. After each pass wait a few seconds and watch the
surface. When you have it just right you will see the paint flatten out
from having an orange peel look to a mirror surface. If you don't pause and
just keep spraying until it looks smooth, you have put on too much paint and
it will run.
5. Painting is not the big deal I thought it was. If I can do it, anyone
can.
I should be in the air soon!
Steve Adams
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 2004 Flight Simulator |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Ashcraft <keith.ashcraft@itt.com>
Hi Robert,
Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I guess that I was just letting some
others respond. As Jerry has also responded, I have used the CH701 with
my FS2004. The STOL performance is fairly accurate, as far as I can tell
from different videos. Around a 4-sec takeoff, and slow flying
characteristics. Even though I have never even flown in a 701 yet, I
have watched the Zenith videos several tens of times, and it looks like
the simulator represents what I have seen on the videos. Some of the
graphics of the 701 are bogus, such as on my machine, in Virtual cockpit
there is no floor or doors, some of the OpenGL graphics are not all
there, but I am assuming the performance is fairly accurate!!!
Keith
CH701 -- ordering more Aluminum for pounding and cutting!!!!!!!
N 38.9947
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
Temp -2F
8" of Wet Spring Snow
*****************************************************************
Robert Schoenberger wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
>
>Larry . . . I was the one who started this thread. I was hoping to find a
>download for the 701 that worked with FS 2004, but no one responded with a
>positive answer. There were a couple of downloads from years earlier, but I
>doubt if they'd work on FS 2004. If I'm missing something, someone on the
>list let me know. Thx. Robert Schoenberger 55% 701
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 2004 Flight Simulator
>
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
>>
>>Bob,
>>Last fall, I purchased 2004 Flight Simulator and downloaded the 601hds
>>in 3 colors. I found the speed and responses
>>very close to my bird. An earlier 2000 Flight Simulator was good in
>>pitch and roll, but roll & climb were speedy.
>>In the $29 2004 version, I fly regularly between local airports and
>>Moline where I can taxi right to my own
>>hangar. The taxiways, signage, interaction with the ATC, and flight
>>characteristics are unbelieveably good for rainy days..
>>You are able to set the flight characteristics to acquire your best
>>comparative. I use an AMD 1400 with 512K
>>memory, a 64K memory graphics card & MS sidewinder 5 button joystick.
>>All are aged by todays coming 32-64 bit standards.
>>
>>Larry McFarland - 601hds
>>
>>Bob Miller wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
>>><drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>>>
>>>Robert,
>>>I have tried the Zodiac 601 on FS 2002 and have been really disappointed
>>>with the results. It could be my joystick (Logitech Extreme 3D Pro), but
>>>the sim aircraft seems to perform more like an Extra than a Zodie, and
>>>thus
>>>is of no value for practice. I'd love to hear from anyone who's had a
>>>better experience.
>>>Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
*************************************
*Keith Ashcraft*
ITT Industries
Advanced Engineering & Sciences
5009 Centennial Blvd.
Colorado Springs, CO
80919
(719) 599-1787 -- work
(719) 332-4364 -- cell
keith.ashcraft@itt.com
************************************
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Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Thanks Steve,
You talk about three coats...are you talking about 3 top (colour)
coats?...That seems to be a lot of paint (4 coats total) which of course
is a lot of weight and presumably this stuff is not cheap.
Any comments?
Frank...Never picked uanything but a rattle can before...:)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Adams
Stephen - Doctors Hosp Augusta
Subject: Zenith-List: CH640 Painting
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Adams Stephen - Doctors Hosp Augusta
--> <Stephen.Adams@HCAhealthcare.com>
Hello everyone. I am finishing up my CH640. Currently I am painting
using the AFS primer/sealer and 2 part polyurethane. I have never
sprayed paint before,
Message 10
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| Subject: | Nose high landing position |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren <challgren@mac.com>
Jeff:
As to your comment "Again, ANY suggestions would be
appreciated relating to the nose high position."
Your description of a nose high position on landing is very similar to
mine on our 601 HDS. I don't think it's a problem.
As to the nose gear coming down rapidly after touchdown, we have the
same problem. I would like a further aft CG but don't want to move the
battery from the firewall to behind the seat to achieve it. May well
be trying Vortex Generators on the tail to increase its effectiveness
as soon as we have determined their effectiveness on lowering the stall
speed.
Stan
601 HDS/Jabiru 3300
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: New question for the group |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
I have a 601HDS TD as in tail dragger. My asi reads high so I fly the
pattern at 90 ias. I slow to 80 just before I cross the fence. YES it glides
like a sewer lid (personhole cover [that's SO PC] ) with power off. Don't
get slow on final if you want to land on the far side of the fence.
Leo Corbalis
----- Original Message -----
From: <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New question for the group
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
>
> This doesn't sound like a problem with the horizontal stab. If the
> stabilizer were set to the wrong pitch it would affect the control forces
> needed to fly at a slow speed not the actual pitch attitude at that speed.
> The horizontal stabilizer mostly affects pitch trim not pitch attitude.
> The pitch attitude is controlled more by the angle of incidence of the
> main wing.
>
> I would think that the first thing you need to check is the accuracy of
> your air speed indicator. Do you have an outside static source? If your
> static source is inside the cockpit, your ASI may be inaccurate. The
> cockpit is a low pressure area which will cause the ASI to read high, so
> you would be flying slower than you think. This is usually more of a
> problem at higher speeds but I suppose it could cause a ten mph error at
> approach speeds.
>
> If the ASI is fairly accurate at approach speeds, then you might check
> the angle of incidence of the main wing. Maybe the original builder some
> how installed the wing with the trailing edge a little too high or the
> leading edge a little too low. This would result in too low an angle of
> incidence and would cause the plane to fly nose high. The wing would be at
> nearly the same angle of attack as it normally would but the fuselage
> would be nose up. This sort of mistake would not be hard to make on the
> XL due to the way the wings attach to the fuselage, it would also not be
> too difficult to fix. I'm not very familiar with the wing-fuselage
> attachment of the HD/HDS so I don't know how this problem could result on
> that model. Could the wing root section have a twist built into it
> resulting in a lower incidence, could the outer panels be installed at a
> nose down angle or could the wing-fuselage join be off a bit? On the other
> hand, this might be normal behavour for an HDS.
>
> Remember, this advice is worth every penny you paid for it. :)
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> do not archive
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow"
>> <jeffglass@starband.net>
>>
>> again and my instructor had me fly the plane at 65 mph with no gain or
>> loss
>> We then descended to normal pattern altitude, flew the
>> pattern, and at the recommended speed for final, 77-75 mph for final, the
>> plane was so nose high I couldn't see the runway. We aborted the landing
>> and on the next go round flew final at a steeper angle of attack, 80-85
>> mph
>> which let me see the runway.
>> We came over the fence at 80 mph, flared flat, and as soon as the mains
>> hit
>> the ground, planted the nose wheel so the plane would not keep flying.
>> This
>> worked well all afternoon on a very crosswindy day. Now, my question is,
>> does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the
>> plane
>> want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it would
>> do
>> in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my guess
>> is...Nose high.
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | New question for the group |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Ya I have to agree with all of this,
As to the nose droppign its not a problem when you get used to it and
the forward CG allows a lot of weight to be carried behind the seats.
I approach at 80mph on the ASI and always keep the power on a little
until you have the mains planted...Keep the nose UP, don't let it
drop...Will require a lot of elevator.
All of this sounds bad but when you come to do tricky short/soft field
landings you will appreciate the ability to stuff it into really short
fields, drop the speed to 70 (AFTER you have practiced a lot) and it
will come down like a grand piano pushed out of a tall building.
If you want to scare yourself do forward slips to landing but be careful
it will make a big hole in the ground if you don't catch it....
Its quite fun and you can swagger around the field as those marvel at
your superior flying skill...Right up until you over do it of
course...:)
Frank
601 HDS Soob 354 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leo
Corbalis
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New question for the group
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis"
--> <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
I have a 601HDS TD as in tail dragger. My asi reads high so I fly the
pattern at 90 ias. I slow to 80 just before I cross the fence. YES it
glides like a sewer lid (personhole cover [that's SO PC] ) with power
off. Don't get slow on final if you want to land on the far side of the
fence.
Leo Corbalis
----- Original Message -----
From: <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New question for the group
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
>
> This doesn't sound like a problem with the horizontal stab. If the
> stabilizer were set to the wrong pitch it would affect the control
forces
> needed to fly at a slow speed not the actual pitch attitude at that
speed.
> The horizontal stabilizer mostly affects pitch trim not pitch
attitude.
> The pitch attitude is controlled more by the angle of incidence of the
> main wing.
>
> I would think that the first thing you need to check is the accuracy
of
> your air speed indicator. Do you have an outside static source? If
your
> static source is inside the cockpit, your ASI may be inaccurate. The
> cockpit is a low pressure area which will cause the ASI to read high,
so
> you would be flying slower than you think. This is usually more of a
> problem at higher speeds but I suppose it could cause a ten mph error
at
> approach speeds.
>
> If the ASI is fairly accurate at approach speeds, then you might
check
> the angle of incidence of the main wing. Maybe the original builder
some
> how installed the wing with the trailing edge a little too high or the
> leading edge a little too low. This would result in too low an angle
of
> incidence and would cause the plane to fly nose high. The wing would
be at
> nearly the same angle of attack as it normally would but the fuselage
> would be nose up. This sort of mistake would not be hard to make on
the
> XL due to the way the wings attach to the fuselage, it would also not
be
> too difficult to fix. I'm not very familiar with the wing-fuselage
> attachment of the HD/HDS so I don't know how this problem could result
on
> that model. Could the wing root section have a twist built into it
> resulting in a lower incidence, could the outer panels be installed at
a
> nose down angle or could the wing-fuselage join be off a bit? On the
other
> hand, this might be normal behavour for an HDS.
>
> Remember, this advice is worth every penny you paid for it. :)
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> do not archive
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow"
>> <jeffglass@starband.net>
>>
>> again and my instructor had me fly the plane at 65 mph with no gain
or
>> loss
>> We then descended to normal pattern altitude, flew the
>> pattern, and at the recommended speed for final, 77-75 mph for final,
the
>> plane was so nose high I couldn't see the runway. We aborted the
landing
>> and on the next go round flew final at a steeper angle of attack,
80-85
>> mph
>> which let me see the runway.
>> We came over the fence at 80 mph, flared flat, and as soon as the
mains
>> hit
>> the ground, planted the nose wheel so the plane would not keep
flying.
>> This
>> worked well all afternoon on a very crosswindy day. Now, my question
is,
>> does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the
>> plane
>> want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it
would
>> do
>> in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my guess
>> is...Nose high.
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: New question for the group |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
I forgot about those full length ailerons. If they are set trailing edge up at
neutral that will effectively reduce the angle of incidence of the wing and cause
a high pitch attitude. It should be an easy fix though.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
> Jeff,
> Congratulatons on your plane.
> I'd adjust your ailerons down a half an inch each side to see if that
> makes the difference.
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow" <jeffglass@starband.net>
> >
> >Took the plane up
> >again and my instructor had me fly the plane at 65 mph with no gain or loss
> >of altitude. To maintain 65 mph I had to fly the plane quite nose high. I
> >should note that we were close to gross weight at about 1170 lbs and well
> >within CG limits. We then descended to normal pattern altitude, flew the
> >pattern, and at the recommended speed for final, 77-75 mph for final, the
> >plane was so nose high I couldn't see the runway. We aborted the landing
> >and on the next go round flew final at a steeper angle of attack, 80-85 mph
> >which let me see the runway.
> >We came over the fence at 80 mph, flared flat, and as soon as the mains hit
> >the ground, planted the nose wheel so the plane would not keep flying. This
> >worked well all afternoon on a very crosswindy day. Now, my question is,
> >does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the plane
> >want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it would do
> >in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my guess
> >is...Nose high.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: New question for the group |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on andromeda
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jeffglass@starband.net>
Thanks Dave! What speed do you use for approach solo?
Jeff
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
>
> Jeff,
> My 601HDS will not fly "up on the step" to use a boating term, until the
> airspeed is above 95 mph with only pilot.
> With passenger it needs 110 mph. If hot and wet air I need 85% power to
> get up on the step with passenger.
> Changing the horizontal stab won't change that. It all a matter of
> lift. With passenger I use 80 mph approach.
> Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Nose high landing position |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on apophis.email.starband.net
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jeffglass@starband.net>
Stan, my battery, and it's pretty heavy is mounted in the tail and doesn't
seem to make a difference.
Jeff
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren <challgren@mac.com>
>
> Jeff:
>
> As to your comment "Again, ANY suggestions would be
> appreciated relating to the nose high position."
>
> Your description of a nose high position on landing is very similar to
> mine on our 601 HDS. I don't think it's a problem.
>
> As to the nose gear coming down rapidly after touchdown, we have the
> same problem. I would like a further aft CG but don't want to move the
> battery from the firewall to behind the seat to achieve it. May well
> be trying Vortex Generators on the tail to increase its effectiveness
> as soon as we have determined their effectiveness on lowering the stall
> speed.
>
> Stan
> 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 2004 Flight Simulator |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
I have seen on the videos. Some of the
graphics of the 701 are bogus, such as on my machine, in Virtual cockpit
there is no floor or doors, some of the OpenGL graphics are not all
there, but I am assuming the performance is fairly accurate!!!
Heck, my 801 is finished and flying and I don't have doors and a floor either.....ha,
ha, jus kiddin....
Ben
www.haaspowerair.com
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | New question for the group |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on artemis
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jeffglass@starband.net>
Frank, thanks for the advice. I feel a bit better about it now that a few
folks have said the same things about the HDS landing charastics.
Jeff N6384E
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Ya I have to agree with all of this,
>
> As to the nose droppign its not a problem when you get used to it and
> the forward CG allows a lot of weight to be carried behind the seats.
>
> I approach at 80mph on the ASI and always keep the power on a little
> until you have the mains planted...Keep the nose UP, don't let it
> drop...Will require a lot of elevator.
>
> All of this sounds bad but when you come to do tricky short/soft field
> landings you will appreciate the ability to stuff it into really short
> fields, drop the speed to 70 (AFTER you have practiced a lot) and it
> will come down like a grand piano pushed out of a tall building.
>
> If you want to scare yourself do forward slips to landing but be careful
> it will make a big hole in the ground if you don't catch it....
>
> Its quite fun and you can swagger around the field as those marvel at
> your superior flying skill...Right up until you over do it of
> course...:)
>
> Frank
>
> 601 HDS Soob 354 hours
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leo
> Corbalis
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New question for the group
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis"
> --> <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I have a 601HDS TD as in tail dragger. My asi reads high so I fly the
> pattern at 90 ias. I slow to 80 just before I cross the fence. YES it
> glides like a sewer lid (personhole cover [that's SO PC] ) with power
> off. Don't get slow on final if you want to land on the far side of the
> fence.
>
> Leo Corbalis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New question for the group
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
>>
>> This doesn't sound like a problem with the horizontal stab. If the
>> stabilizer were set to the wrong pitch it would affect the control
> forces
>> needed to fly at a slow speed not the actual pitch attitude at that
> speed.
>> The horizontal stabilizer mostly affects pitch trim not pitch
> attitude.
>> The pitch attitude is controlled more by the angle of incidence of the
>
>> main wing.
>>
>> I would think that the first thing you need to check is the accuracy
> of
>> your air speed indicator. Do you have an outside static source? If
> your
>> static source is inside the cockpit, your ASI may be inaccurate. The
>> cockpit is a low pressure area which will cause the ASI to read high,
> so
>> you would be flying slower than you think. This is usually more of a
>> problem at higher speeds but I suppose it could cause a ten mph error
> at
>> approach speeds.
>>
>> If the ASI is fairly accurate at approach speeds, then you might
> check
>> the angle of incidence of the main wing. Maybe the original builder
> some
>> how installed the wing with the trailing edge a little too high or the
>
>> leading edge a little too low. This would result in too low an angle
> of
>> incidence and would cause the plane to fly nose high. The wing would
> be at
>> nearly the same angle of attack as it normally would but the fuselage
>> would be nose up. This sort of mistake would not be hard to make on
> the
>> XL due to the way the wings attach to the fuselage, it would also not
> be
>> too difficult to fix. I'm not very familiar with the wing-fuselage
>> attachment of the HD/HDS so I don't know how this problem could result
> on
>> that model. Could the wing root section have a twist built into it
>> resulting in a lower incidence, could the outer panels be installed at
> a
>> nose down angle or could the wing-fuselage join be off a bit? On the
> other
>> hand, this might be normal behavour for an HDS.
>>
>> Remember, this advice is worth every penny you paid for it. :)
>>
>> --
>> Bryan Martin
>> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow"
>>> <jeffglass@starband.net>
>>>
>>> again and my instructor had me fly the plane at 65 mph with no gain
> or
>>> loss
>>> We then descended to normal pattern altitude, flew the
>>> pattern, and at the recommended speed for final, 77-75 mph for final,
> the
>>> plane was so nose high I couldn't see the runway. We aborted the
> landing
>>> and on the next go round flew final at a steeper angle of attack,
> 80-85
>>> mph
>>> which let me see the runway.
>>> We came over the fence at 80 mph, flared flat, and as soon as the
> mains
>>> hit
>>> the ground, planted the nose wheel so the plane would not keep
> flying.
>>> This
>>> worked well all afternoon on a very crosswindy day. Now, my question
> is,
>>> does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the
>
>>> plane
>>> want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it
> would
>>> do
>>> in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my guess
>>> is...Nose high.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | New question for the group |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Good deal Jeff.
Actually planes that "float" like Cessna's scare me way more than the
HDS...Like short field carry 5 kts too much speed and watch the trees
coming and coming...when will this thing land?...Of course if you've
hardly any power to go around either and you will find the little
Cessna's are something of a liability to be honest.
Much better to cut the power and hit the ground!...If you're too hot hit
gas and climb out of just about anything!
It's a very cool little plane!
Mine is for sale just not quite yet...:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jeffglass@starband.net
version@mailbox.hp.com; 0.80j@mailbox.hp.com; on@mailbox.hp.com;
artemis@mailbox.hp.com
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: New question for the group
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jeffglass@starband.net>
Frank, thanks for the advice. I feel a bit better about it now that a
few folks have said the same things about the HDS landing charastics.
Jeff N6384E
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Ya I have to agree with all of this,
>
> As to the nose droppign its not a problem when you get used to it and
> the forward CG allows a lot of weight to be carried behind the seats.
>
> I approach at 80mph on the ASI and always keep the power on a little
> until you have the mains planted...Keep the nose UP, don't let it
> drop...Will require a lot of elevator.
>
> All of this sounds bad but when you come to do tricky short/soft field
> landings you will appreciate the ability to stuff it into really short
> fields, drop the speed to 70 (AFTER you have practiced a lot) and it
> will come down like a grand piano pushed out of a tall building.
>
> If you want to scare yourself do forward slips to landing but be
> careful it will make a big hole in the ground if you don't catch
it....
>
> Its quite fun and you can swagger around the field as those marvel at
> your superior flying skill...Right up until you over do it of
> course...:)
>
> Frank
>
> 601 HDS Soob 354 hours
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leo
> Corbalis
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New question for the group
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis"
> --> <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I have a 601HDS TD as in tail dragger. My asi reads high so I fly the
> pattern at 90 ias. I slow to 80 just before I cross the fence. YES it
> glides like a sewer lid (personhole cover [that's SO PC] ) with power
> off. Don't get slow on final if you want to land on the far side of
> the fence.
>
> Leo Corbalis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New question for the group
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
>>
>> This doesn't sound like a problem with the horizontal stab. If the
>> stabilizer were set to the wrong pitch it would affect the control
> forces
>> needed to fly at a slow speed not the actual pitch attitude at that
> speed.
>> The horizontal stabilizer mostly affects pitch trim not pitch
> attitude.
>> The pitch attitude is controlled more by the angle of incidence of
>> the
>
>> main wing.
>>
>> I would think that the first thing you need to check is the accuracy
> of
>> your air speed indicator. Do you have an outside static source? If
> your
>> static source is inside the cockpit, your ASI may be inaccurate. The
>> cockpit is a low pressure area which will cause the ASI to read high,
> so
>> you would be flying slower than you think. This is usually more of a
>> problem at higher speeds but I suppose it could cause a ten mph error
> at
>> approach speeds.
>>
>> If the ASI is fairly accurate at approach speeds, then you might
> check
>> the angle of incidence of the main wing. Maybe the original builder
> some
>> how installed the wing with the trailing edge a little too high or
>> the
>
>> leading edge a little too low. This would result in too low an angle
> of
>> incidence and would cause the plane to fly nose high. The wing would
> be at
>> nearly the same angle of attack as it normally would but the fuselage
>> would be nose up. This sort of mistake would not be hard to make on
> the
>> XL due to the way the wings attach to the fuselage, it would also not
> be
>> too difficult to fix. I'm not very familiar with the wing-fuselage
>> attachment of the HD/HDS so I don't know how this problem could
>> result
> on
>> that model. Could the wing root section have a twist built into it
>> resulting in a lower incidence, could the outer panels be installed
>> at
> a
>> nose down angle or could the wing-fuselage join be off a bit? On the
> other
>> hand, this might be normal behavour for an HDS.
>>
>> Remember, this advice is worth every penny you paid for it. :)
>>
>> --
>> Bryan Martin
>> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Glasserow"
>>> <jeffglass@starband.net>
>>>
>>> again and my instructor had me fly the plane at 65 mph with no gain
> or
>>> loss
>>> We then descended to normal pattern altitude, flew the pattern, and
>>> at the recommended speed for final, 77-75 mph for final,
> the
>>> plane was so nose high I couldn't see the runway. We aborted the
> landing
>>> and on the next go round flew final at a steeper angle of attack,
> 80-85
>>> mph
>>> which let me see the runway.
>>> We came over the fence at 80 mph, flared flat, and as soon as the
> mains
>>> hit
>>> the ground, planted the nose wheel so the plane would not keep
> flying.
>>> This
>>> worked well all afternoon on a very crosswindy day. Now, my
>>> question
> is,
>>> does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make
>>> the
>
>>> plane
>>> want to fly nose high all the time? I really couldn't tell what it
> would
>>> do
>>> in normal cruise mode because it was so bumpy and gusty, but my
>>> guess is...Nose high.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 28 Msgs - 03/14/05 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> ... Now, my question is,
> does anyone think my tail incidence might be mis-adjusted to make the plane
> want to fly nose high all the time?
I've seen this in my and other HDS's... As others have mentioned, it's not
likely the tailplane, but rather the mainplain angle that is the question.
I made my body attitude more comfortable by 'drooping' both ailerons by a
degree or two (i.e. I extended the aileron push rods by a cm or two)....
Mine have enough travel in both directions to permit this.
I think the tendancy to fly nose-high comes from a couple of sources:
1/ the airplane was initially designed by C.H. to cruise at 130 mph, but
most of us get less cruise speed than that. Interestingly, the XL I flew
last month did cruise this fast (and more) and the body attitude was very
normal (although with a completely different wing, this is not an exaxt
comparison)
2/ we sit 'deep' within the fuselage, keeping a low profile (even with the
2" canopy extension) ... so the nose looks very high especially during flare
3/ Have you ever noticed how the inboard, rear wing 'fairing' -- the one we
have to step over to get onto the wing root -- actually gives that part of
the wing a reduced angle of attack? It must take several degrees of angle
OFF the 'liftiest' part of the wing. I've often wondered if that
contributes to this characteristic...
Anyways, as I mentioned, I dropped both ailerons until I was happier with
the body angle. The tradeoff? Probably a loss of a knot or two in
cruise...?
fwiw
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: New question for the group |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Jeff,
I use 70 to 75 mph IAS when solo in reasonably still air. Keep the
nosewheel off the ground as long as possible after touchdown. Saves wearing
out the brakes and it's good practice if you ever go taildragger..
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 21
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| Subject: | Ch 801 specs with floats |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Karlsberg <claypride@hotmail.com>
Hi everyone. I am a prospective 801 builder and am interested in knowing if
anyone knew what some performance figures would be for an 801 with
amphibious floats (using the Lycoming O-360). I am most interested in
cruising speed and useful load.
Thanks,
David
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