---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/29/05: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:51 AM - cruise speeds (Grant Corriveau) 2. 04:49 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 03/28/05 (alex trent) 3. 05:49 AM - Paint source (Geronimo423@aol.com) 4. 05:59 AM - Re: GEO Engine on a 701 with floats? (Larry Martin) 5. 06:05 AM - Re: Canopy Thickness - 601XL (Dave & Darlene) 6. 06:08 AM - Sun & Fun Video (Dave & Darlene) 7. 06:34 AM - Re: Zenith-List Painting (Philip Condon) 8. 06:58 AM - Re: Canopy Thickness - 601XL (Cdngoose) 9. 07:42 AM - Re: Heat Shrink Tubing (Jack Russell) 10. 08:04 AM - Elevator trim tab connections (was:Heat Shrink Tubing) (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 11. 10:08 AM - Unfortunately.... (Greg Lamoree) 12. 10:40 AM - Re: cruise speeds (Gary Gower) 13. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Heat Shrink Tubing (Leo Corbalis) 14. 11:56 AM - Re: cruise speeds (Thilo Kind) 15. 11:56 AM - Re: Heat Shrink Tubing (Thilo Kind) 16. 01:09 PM - Re: Elevator trim tab connections (was:Heat Shrink Tubing) (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 17. 02:17 PM - Hole finder (Tommy Walker) 18. 02:46 PM - Re: Hole finder (N5SL) 19. 02:55 PM - Re: Hole finder (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 20. 04:33 PM - Re: Hole finder (Rick) 21. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Painting (Chris Boultinghouse) 22. 07:02 PM - Re: Questions On 601 XL (Dave VanLanen) 23. 07:28 PM - Re: Paint source (Larry Martin) 24. 07:44 PM - Re: Unfortunately.... (sportpilot) 25. 08:07 PM - My first error (Mike H) 26. 08:50 PM - Re: My first error (Todd Osborne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: cruise speeds From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > Guess the next step is to try and do something about the dragginess. > > Good flying! > > Grant Schemmel After watching this list for many years, I'm realizing that there are not THAT many things we can do to clean up an aircraft with such a FAT wing! ;-) Chris Heinz addressed this with the XL by using a different 'less-deep' wing section. I'm beginning to think that the propellor is something to consider to get more performance on the HDS. I recently 'drove' Art Mitchell's XL with a constant speed prop and the difference it makes is eye-opening. Also, one of the Mikes on this list (FRND?) uses a shorter prop, and along with some other mods, he's one of the faster HDSs (I think.)... I think 2 things happen with props that keep down our 'average' top speeds. 1/ we buy too large a diameter prop, then we can't 'drive' it in high gear (course pitch).... I liked what 18 degress pitch was doing for my plane cruise-wise - it seemed to be pulling hard against the drag to give another 5 mph etc.. but the engine seemed to be 'lugging' sometimes. So I backed the pitch off to 16.5... But what if I chopped the diameter down to 68" and put the pitch back up to 18? Now the engine should be able to turn more easily, and still take those 'bigger bites' into the air. Takeoff roll might increase but... 2/ Which brings me to the second thing. I LOVE the acceleration and climbout of my little Zodie, but what is this costing me at the cruise end? If I recall the C-150 (a great little airplane for other reasons!), and other manufactured airplanes, they take significantly more takeoff roll, in return for better crusise performance. And when I was flying those airplanes, it didn't bother me. I don't work from short or high fields (like you do), so why don't I give up a couple hundred feet of t/o roll for better cruise speed? Likewise with climbout. It's nothing to get only 400fpm from a Cessna on a hot day, but if I only got that much from my zodie i'd be seriously concerned. So maybe again, I can AFFORD to move the compromise a little towards cruise performance. Then perhaps any other 'clean up' issues I address will actually convert to more airspeed?? Anyways, that's what I'm thinking these days wrt to speed. That and wondering how one of those Woodcomp constant speed props would fit on my CAM100!! ha ha $$$$$.. best, Grant Corriveau ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:41 AM PST US From: alex trent Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 03/28/05 --> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent Go for it. Back in the early days, before kits were dreamed of, this was the only way and a lot of guys did it. I don't know what your proposed method is but the compressed air sounds familiar. Some where I have some info pixs etc of a method that appears simple and effective. alex t. Do not archive. >Fellow Builders: > >I need the help of someone who has a canopy lying around or installed on your 601XL >already. I'm toying with the idea of making my own canopy (call me crazy) >and I would like to know what the thickness is of the finished canopy. > >It looks like it may be a fun project at least more fun than a sharp stick in the >eye. > >Thanks, > >Scott Laughlin >N5SL (Reserved) >www.cooknwithgas.com >601XL/Corvair >Working on Instruments & getting ahead of myself again. > > > >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:07 AM PST US From: Geronimo423@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Paint source --> Zenith-List message posted by: Geronimo423@aol.com I just purchased a paint 'kit' from Smartshoppersinc.com. Comes with everything but the kitchen sink. Paint, mixing cups, tyvek suit. The whole enchilada. Price was reasonable, too. Paint is Kirker brand. Painted the underside of my fuselage. All seemed to work out fine. Check them out: _http://smartshoppersinc.com/_ (http://smartshoppersinc.com/) I'm not affiliated with the company in any way. Roger Parnow CH601XL Corvair Power ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:19 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: GEO Engine on a 701 with floats? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" The 3/8" line certainly will accommodate all engines, however a fuel injected engine requires return lines to each tank and a six port fuel selector to return the line back to the tank that is being used. You could run balance lines between the tanks, but I don't recommend it. The feed function and return function cannot use the same line. If it were me and I wasn't sure on the engine type, carbed vs fuel injected, I would go ahead and run return lines and stub them off somewhere easy to get to later. That way even if you do go with (50 year old technology) carbureted engine you can always replace it later with a (State of the Art) fuel injected engine. And Brendon, if you want that 100hp you need to opt for the fuel injection for more power, better performance, better fuel economy, and no icing problems. Larry, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: GEO Engine on a 701 with floats? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > Engine decision is way down the road in your construction time. But to > make sure your in good shape make your fuel lines 3/8 " this will > accommodate all motors including EFI. Wait to purchase your battery till > near the end of your build then you will know size needed and location > of said battery to make your CG happy. Other then that start reading > plans drilling fingers (opps metal) and shopping E-Bay for all those > steam gauges everyone is throwing out for the Glass cockpit. As for the > Geo a 1.3 may not do it on a hot day but the 1.6 should be a distinct > possibility a turbo version would be nice for that water run. The 701 is > a nice bird for it's function, just dive in and start building, it's > always the first hole that takes the longest to make. > > Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario > Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 > President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter > www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brendan > Bartlett > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: GEO Engine on a 701 with floats? > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brendan Bartlett > > > Hi All, > > Just wondering if anybody out there is operating a 701 with floats and > a GEO engine. I was told that you need 100 hp on the 701 with floats - > 80 hp won't be enough power. Can you get 100 hp reliably out of a GEO > engine? > > Also, if somebody is using a GEO engine, how many hours can you expect > before overhaul on one of these? > > Also, I'm seriously thinking about starting to build a 701 but I > haven't decided on a powerplant. Can I leave this undecided for a long > time, or will I end up having to rip the wings apart for different fuel > plumbing / add weight to the tail / etc? > > thanks....and the wealth of knowledge on this list certaintly is > impressive! > > Brendan Bartlett > still just dreaming about a CH701 > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:05 AM PST US From: "Dave & Darlene" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Thickness - 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" Hi Mark Scott seems to really want to do his own thing. I think you should Scott and let us all know how things worked out. Maybe you could make a half a dozen while your at it and give us all a deal. Dave Alberta DO NOT POST ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canopy Thickness - 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > OK Scott you asked for it ""YOUR CRAZY"" Even if your lucky enough to > get a mold to form a canopy in the first few tries you will still spend > way more trying to get one without visual distortion. Especially when I > have heard of a fellow in the US that makes them for around $500.00 and > guarantees the unit even if you crack it while drilling it. Make your > own? Give me the hot poker for the eye. But knowing your desire to make > everything Good Luck and keep us posted. > > Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario > Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 > President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter > www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy Thickness - 601XL > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > > Fellow Builders: > > I need the help of someone who has a canopy lying around or installed on > your 601XL already. I'm toying with the idea of making my own canopy > (call me crazy) and I would like to know what the thickness is of the > finished canopy. > > So if you have a micrometer and can check the edge of your canopy for me > I would greatly appreciate it. If you could check it as high as > possible on the aft edge that may give me an idea of the thinnest part > that's measurable. > > It looks like it may be a fun project at least more fun than a sharp > stick in the eye. > > Thanks, > > Scott Laughlin > N5SL (Reserved) > www.cooknwithgas.com > 601XL/Corvair > Working on Instruments & getting ahead of myself again. > > > --------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:29 AM PST US From: "Dave & Darlene" Subject: Zenith-List: Sun & Fun Video --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" Just a suggestion. You guys going to S&F (lucky devels). How about one of you making a video of the event and make up some copies. I'd be more than willing to pay you for a copy so I can watch it 400 times and wish I could of gone. I'm sure there would be lots of us that would buy one. Dave Nimigon Alberta 601XL 99% to go tail parts bent and ready www.borrowmyhusband.com/Nimigon_601XL DO NOT POST ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:36 AM PST US From: "Philip Condon" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Painting --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Condon" Don't be fooled in thinking the water based paints from AFS, Sikkens, Grassurit (or other paint manfs) are safe to use without major breathing equipment. Water is used as a catalyst AND you add a activator in addition to the pigment base to the mix. Water sounds harmless, but the addition of the activator as well as the base components do produce a spray able paint that a pressure air breathing hood is needed. A respirator won't cut it here. Zenith-List: Painting --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Hi Guys, I've been looking at painting systems and paints and have run into AFS paints where there are no toxic materials involved. A respirator is good enough and an HVLP gun will work. They have a two part polyurethane system, with primers, etchers and cleaners for the metal aircraft and none of them have killer toxic products because they are a water-born product with water cleanup. Have any of you used this stuff? It looks pretty good on their site, but I've no personal experience with it. http://www.aircraftfinishing.com/about-us.htm Larry McFarland - 601HDS @ 55 hours and preparing for paint ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:20 AM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canopy Thickness - 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Since this was directed at me let me just point out a view in this matter. The Canopy is one of the largest costs in the making of the airframe for a scratch builder if someone wishes to make it for the sake of being able to say they even made the canopy, then I'm all for it and would love to post it on the www.ch601.org website. IF someone is only doing a canopy to save money then the cheaper solution would be the fellow Trevor mentioned for about $325. Other then that Scott go for it but I still think your Crazy. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave & Darlene Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Thickness - 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" Hi Mark Scott seems to really want to do his own thing. I think you should Scott and let us all know how things worked out. Maybe you could make a half a dozen while your at it and give us all a deal. Dave Alberta DO NOT POST ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canopy Thickness - 601XL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > OK Scott you asked for it ""YOUR CRAZY"" Even if your lucky enough to > get a mold to form a canopy in the first few tries you will still spend > way more trying to get one without visual distortion. Especially when I > have heard of a fellow in the US that makes them for around $500.00 and > guarantees the unit even if you crack it while drilling it. Make your > own? Give me the hot poker for the eye. But knowing your desire to make > everything Good Luck and keep us posted. > > Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario > Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 > President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter > www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy Thickness - 601XL > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > > Fellow Builders: > > I need the help of someone who has a canopy lying around or installed on > your 601XL already. I'm toying with the idea of making my own canopy > (call me crazy) and I would like to know what the thickness is of the > finished canopy. > > So if you have a micrometer and can check the edge of your canopy for me > I would greatly appreciate it. If you could check it as high as > possible on the aft edge that may give me an idea of the thinnest part > that's measurable. > > It looks like it may be a fun project at least more fun than a sharp > stick in the eye. > > Thanks, > > Scott Laughlin > N5SL (Reserved) > www.cooknwithgas.com > 601XL/Corvair > Working on Instruments & getting ahead of myself again. > > > --------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:05 AM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heat Shrink Tubing --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Don: I heat shrunk every connection including the solderless conections to give the wire support. Radio shack tubing is a lot more than harbour freight and they have several types. Jack in do not archive Clovis Ca Don Mountain wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Mountain" I am in the process of making my first electrical connection on my Zodiac XL stabilizer trim tab motor. In connecting the wires coming out of the motor to the 5-wire cable, I was planning to just strip them and solder them together, and then use Radio Shack store heat-shrink tubing to insulate them. The directions in the manual from Zenith say to either use electrical tape or heat shrink tubing. Their picture in the manual of a bundle of black tape looks a little rough. Is Radio Shack heat-shrink tubing permissible in a kit airplane, or do I need something special? I see some for sale in one of my aircraft catalogs. Is it any different or better? Or is there some better way to make these connections? I bought the complete kit and have the tail section about done. Then its on to the wings. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:12 AM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Elevator trim tab connections (was:Heat Shrink Tubing) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com Hello Listers: I just finished my tail section and I have a few dumb questions/observations: I also used solderless connections and lots on high-quality electrical tape for the splice for the elevator trim tab servo, thinking i had PLENTY of 5-conductor wire to pull down in case I ever had to install a replacement servo, and, as I understand, these servos are VERY reliable and need replacement VERY infrequently. My thinking was a 5-conductor Molex connector would be LESS reliable than the component, so why install a potential point of failure? In addition, waterproofing a Molex connector would be ugly, at best. This brings me to the connection inside the fuse. Does Zenith want us to run the 5-conductor cable all the way to the trim switch? Once the horizontal stabilizor is in place, is there ever a worthwhile reason to remove it (for instance, for painting) and that might lend to a connector inside the fuse - or maybe a terminal strip? I'm thinking having electric trim on the Y-handle as well as a switch on the panel would require a set of relays back in the fuse to drive this servo. Any thoughts on this? My thanks to everyone who actively contributes to this list - I would NOT be building this airplane without you !! Regards, Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT 601xl tail 100% N458XL (reserved) do not archive In a message dated 3/29/2005 10:42:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, clojan@sbcglobal.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Don: I heat shrunk every connection including the solderless conections to give the wire support. Radio shack tubing is a lot more than harbour freight and they have several types. Jack in do not archive Clovis Ca Don Mountain wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Mountain" I am in the process of making my first electrical connection on my Zodiac XL stabilizer trim tab motor. In connecting the wires coming out of the motor to the 5-wire cable, I was planning to just strip them and solder them together, and then use Radio Shack store heat-shrink tubing to insulate them. The directions in the manual from Zenith say to either use electrical tape or heat shrink tubing. Their picture in the manual of a bundle of black tape looks a little rough. Is Radio Shack heat-shrink tubing permissible in a kit airplane, or do I need something special? I see some for sale in one of my aircraft catalogs. Is it any different or better? Or is there some better way to make these connections? I bought the complete kit and have the tail section about done. Then its on to the wings. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:33 AM PST US From: "Greg Lamoree" Subject: Zenith-List: Unfortunately.... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Lamoree" My building has come to a premature end. I've recently lost my job, and can no longer make payments on my 601XL. I've completed the rudder, and have started the elevator. I have the entire kit with the additional wing lockers. That being said, I'm looking to sell my kit. I'd like to recoupe my money, but am more than happy to take a couple of thousand less. If anyone is interested, please email me directly: randomminds at gmail.com do not archive. -- -------------------------- Greg Lamoree Zodiac 601 XL www.GregsPlane.com -------------------------- -- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:44 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cruise speeds --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello Grant, I have a personal comment, (I fly a 701 with 912S at 5,000 ft ASL, so nothing related with your great zodie, just a general idea). Something I learned, towards the safety side of flying, is to have enough "pull" reserve from the prop in case needed, name it HP, "climb" pitch, "inertia speed" from the plane, etc. I know that flying in low altitude and relatively flat terrain is diferent from the ones we fly in high mountain land. Is like passing a truck in a two lane road with a VW bus :-( the stress is BIG, I own and drive one. If you have speed (5 - 10 mph more) because of a cruise prop, will not take you that much faster to your destination in a weekend flight, maybe only when you are late and "running" the sun in the late afternoon. There are more chances to need to abort a landing, go around, climb over those trees that are getting closer in this new strip.... This is more important, for me, that getting "there" 5 minutes earlier, because 5 or 10 mph will not be noticed, we loose more speed ocasionaly with a headwind... Just my point of view. Saludos Gary Gower. Safety first. Grant Corriveau wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > Guess the next step is to try and do something about the dragginess. > > Good flying! > > Grant Schemmel After watching this list for many years, I'm realizing that there are not THAT many things we can do to clean up an aircraft with such a FAT wing! ;-) Chris Heinz addressed this with the XL by using a different 'less-deep' wing section. I'm beginning to think that the propellor is something to consider to get more performance on the HDS. I recently 'drove' Art Mitchell's XL with a constant speed prop and the difference it makes is eye-opening. Also, one of the Mikes on this list (FRND?) uses a shorter prop, and along with some other mods, he's one of the faster HDSs (I think.)... I think 2 things happen with props that keep down our 'average' top speeds. 1/ we buy too large a diameter prop, then we can't 'drive' it in high gear (course pitch).... I liked what 18 degress pitch was doing for my plane cruise-wise - it seemed to be pulling hard against the drag to give another 5 mph etc.. but the engine seemed to be 'lugging' sometimes. So I backed the pitch off to 16.5... But what if I chopped the diameter down to 68" and put the pitch back up to 18? Now the engine should be able to turn more easily, and still take those 'bigger bites' into the air. Takeoff roll might increase but... 2/ Which brings me to the second thing. I LOVE the acceleration and climbout of my little Zodie, but what is this costing me at the cruise end? If I recall the C-150 (a great little airplane for other reasons!), and other manufactured airplanes, they take significantly more takeoff roll, in return for better crusise performance. And when I was flying those airplanes, it didn't bother me. I don't work from short or high fields (like you do), so why don't I give up a couple hundred feet of t/o roll for better cruise speed? Likewise with climbout. It's nothing to get only 400fpm from a Cessna on a hot day, but if I only got that much from my zodie i'd be seriously concerned. So maybe again, I can AFFORD to move the compromise a little towards cruise performance. Then perhaps any other 'clean up' issues I address will actually convert to more airspeed?? Anyways, that's what I'm thinking these days wrt to speed. That and wondering how one of those Woodcomp constant speed props would fit on my CAM100!! ha ha $$$$$.. best, Grant Corriveau --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:04 AM PST US From: "Leo Corbalis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Heat Shrink Tubing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis" Heat shrink tubing is made in at least 2 types. I can't tell them apart by looking. Type 1 will not expand to its origional size if you soak it in a jar of gasoline overnight. Type 2 will unshrink in gas. It might have been the MTB in California gas. Something else to worry about! Leo Corbalis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Moore" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Heat Shrink Tubing > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" > > So far, I have soldered all splices and end connections, used heat shrink, > and to finish them off, applied liquid rubber insulation from a brush-on > type can. I figure since there are so few actual connections the overkill > is time well spent. > > I think I picked up the brush-on at Wal-Mart or one of the auto parts > stores > - standard item - can't remember the brand name though. It really sticks > well to vinyl and teflon insulation and is tough to peel off after a few > minutes. It looks good and really seals splices and cable ends from > moisture/dust, etc. > > Paul Moore > XL O-200 > > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Mountain > Subject: Zenith-List: Heat Shrink Tubing > > ..Or is there some better way to make these connections?... > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:12 AM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cruise speeds --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Grant and All, you might recall, that I installed the Woodcomp prop. Although I haven't done a lot of flying so far (spent the last 8 months in Taiwan without the plane) I really like the prop. It seems to boost the performance of my 601 HDS / 912 a lot. In any case, I went to the airport last weekend and got some shocking news: a few months ago two members of the flying club chrashed with a new plane (both didn't survive). Initial investigation results point to the prop, which was a Woodcomp flight adjustable unit. Current thinking is, that the prop went into reverse. Last year, we had a similar accident with a pilot putting a Woodcomp into reverse during a landing - at the same time the co-pilot initiated a go-around, resulting in a crash as well. Fortunately, both sustained only minor injuries. My Woodcomp prop can be put in reverse as well. Although the switch is protected by a lock I'm now thinking about additional safety features, so that an accidental switching into reverse won't be possible. HAPPY FLYING Thilo Kind ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Corriveau" Subject: Zenith-List: cruise speeds > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > > Guess the next step is to try and do something about the dragginess. > > > > Good flying! > > > > Grant Schemmel > > After watching this list for many years, I'm realizing that there are not > THAT many things we can do to clean up an aircraft with such a FAT wing! ;-) > Chris Heinz addressed this with the XL by using a different 'less-deep' wing > section. > > I'm beginning to think that the propellor is something to consider to get > more performance on the HDS. I recently 'drove' Art Mitchell's XL with a > constant speed prop and the difference it makes is eye-opening. Also, one > of the Mikes on this list (FRND?) uses a shorter prop, and along with some > other mods, he's one of the faster HDSs (I think.)... > > I think 2 things happen with props that keep down our 'average' top speeds. > > 1/ we buy too large a diameter prop, then we can't 'drive' it in high gear > (course pitch).... I liked what 18 degress pitch was doing for my plane > cruise-wise - it seemed to be pulling hard against the drag to give another > 5 mph etc.. but the engine seemed to be 'lugging' sometimes. So I backed > the pitch off to 16.5... But what if I chopped the diameter down to 68" and > put the pitch back up to 18? Now the engine should be able to turn more > easily, and still take those 'bigger bites' into the air. Takeoff roll > might increase but... > > 2/ Which brings me to the second thing. I LOVE the acceleration and > climbout of my little Zodie, but what is this costing me at the cruise end? > If I recall the C-150 (a great little airplane for other reasons!), and > other manufactured airplanes, they take significantly more takeoff roll, in > return for better crusise performance. And when I was flying those > airplanes, it didn't bother me. I don't work from short or high fields > (like you do), so why don't I give up a couple hundred feet of t/o roll for > better cruise speed? Likewise with climbout. It's nothing to get only > 400fpm from a Cessna on a hot day, but if I only got that much from my zodie > i'd be seriously concerned. So maybe again, I can AFFORD to move the > compromise a little towards cruise performance. Then perhaps any other > 'clean up' issues I address will actually convert to more airspeed?? > > Anyways, that's what I'm thinking these days wrt to speed. That and > wondering how one of those Woodcomp constant speed props would fit on my > CAM100!! ha ha $$$$$.. > > best, > Grant Corriveau > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:12 AM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heat Shrink Tubing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Don, DO NOT just solder the wires together. Soldering result in a brittle connection, which eventually will fail due to the vibrations in the airplane. Use crimp connectors instead. As far as the tubing is concerned: they all should be fine. Best regards Thilo Kind ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Mountain" Subject: Zenith-List: Heat Shrink Tubing > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Mountain" > > I am in the process of making my first electrical connection on my Zodiac XL > stabilizer trim tab motor. In connecting the wires coming out of the motor > to the 5-wire cable, I was planning to just strip them and solder them > together, and then use Radio Shack store heat-shrink tubing to insulate > them. The directions in the manual from Zenith say to either use electrical > tape or heat shrink tubing. Their picture in the manual of a bundle of > black tape looks a little rough. Is Radio Shack heat-shrink tubing > permissible in a kit airplane, or do I need something special? I see some > for sale in one of my aircraft catalogs. Is it any different or better? Or > is there some better way to make these connections? I bought the complete > kit and have the tail section about done. Then its on to the wings. > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:54 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Elevator trim tab connections (was:Heat Shrink Tubing) --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net If you think you might need to disconnect the servo some time in the future, check out this link: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html You could rig this up at the servo and/or between the tail and fuselage. I did pretty much what you did, I just crimped the wires together with butt splices and heat shrink, then I ran the servo wires directly to my relay board. I installed infinity stick grips with hat switches for the trim on both grips. http://www.infinityaerospace.com/infgrip.htm The same company that sells the grips sells a relay pack with three sets of relays mounted on a PC board with terminal strips. I ran the wires directly from the pitch trim servo to the terminal strip on this relay board. The aileron trim wires run from the servo to a 12 pin molex connector with the rest of my in-wing wiring. The female half of this connector is mounted in the side skin where the wing attaches and the male half was plugged in to it when the wing was installed. The wires then run from this connector to the terminal strip on the relay board. I used the third set of relays to run the flaps. The trim feedback wires are connected together near the relay board and run to a 9 pin D connector behind the panel where the indicators are installed. Ray Allen Company also sells a relay pack for their servos, one pack is needed for each servo. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com > > > Hello Listers: > > I just finished my tail section and I have a few dumb questions/observations: > > I also used solderless connections and lots on high-quality electrical tape > for the splice for the elevator trim tab servo, thinking i had PLENTY of > 5-conductor wire to pull down in case I ever had to install a replacement > servo, > and, as I understand, these servos are VERY reliable and need replacement > VERY infrequently. > This brings me to the connection inside the fuse. Does Zenith want us to > run the 5-conductor cable all the way to the trim switch? Once the horizontal > stabilizor is in place, is there ever a worthwhile reason to remove it (for > instance, for painting) and that might lend to a connector inside the fuse - > or maybe a terminal strip? I'm thinking having electric trim on the Y-handle > as well as a switch on the panel would require a set of relays back in the > fuse to drive this servo. Any thoughts on this? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:12 PM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: Hole finder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" I am having a problem building the root wing skin. The 701 Photo guide says to predrill the root rib and then use a hole finder to drill the skins. So, I ordered a hole duplicator from ACS and thought I was good to go. I usually get next day service with ACS from Griffin, GA. Well it came today and dumb me proceeded to drill the first hole using this new-fangled (to me) device. Wouldn't you know that it is not long enough, the throw is only about 9 inches and what I need to drill is about 10-11 deep. My question. Is there a way to duplicate the holes without a store bought hole duplicator? Many thanks (hoping someone will save my bacon again....) ;-) Tommy Walker in Alabama ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:20 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole finder --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Tommy there are lots of tricks. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are doing, but I've made my own hole finder (you can make a long one), I've used plexi-glass and even paper. Here are a few photos to help see what I'm saying: Hole finder: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_02_03_FlangeFinder.jpg I called it a flange finder because it helps me find 10 mm from the flange. Paper: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_10_04_HoleAlignment.JPG You just use a large sheet of paper and rub it till the ribs show through. Template Strip: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/12_29_03_HoleTemplate.JPG This was mostly used to avoid drilling into the dimples in the ribs Plexiglass - I didn't find a picture right away, but you drill through and cleco as you go, then lay the Plexiglas over the outside with a row of rivets in an exposed part of the skin and it will line up perfectly when you drill through the holes in the Plexiglas. Good luck, Scott Laughlin N5SL (Reserved) www.cooknwithgas.com Tommy Walker wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" I am having a problem building the root wing skin. The 701 Photo guide says to predrill the root rib and then use a hole finder to drill the skins. So, I ordered a hole duplicator from ACS and thought I was good to go. I usually get next day service with ACS from Griffin, GA. Well it came today and dumb me proceeded to drill the first hole using this new-fangled (to me) device. Wouldn't you know that it is not long enough, the throw is only about 9 inches and what I need to drill is about 10-11 deep. My question. Is there a way to duplicate the holes without a store bought hole duplicator? Many thanks (hoping someone will save my bacon again....) ;-) Tommy Walker in Alabama --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:34 PM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole finder --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com In a message dated 3/29/2005 4:18:34 PM Central Standard Time, twalker@cableone.net writes: My question. Is there a way to duplicate the holes without a store bought hole duplicator? Tom -- If the problem holes are not yet drilled in the Root Rib, you might try a piece of velum, stiff see thru drawing paper, used by draftsmen. Tape/cleco it in place somehow to rib #1, and have it curved & fitted to the root rib. It would look like the skin in place. With pencil, lay out the root rib hole locations for the ones you can't reach with the hole finder. then with the skin in place and the velum folded back on top, and secured to the same location as above, drill the pilot holes through both. Cleco through the skin and velum as you go. If the problem holes are already drilled in the Root Rib, try to make a hole finder the length needed. That is, cut the short one,, and add longer extensions. Use steel or alum strap, cleco together or rivet. Good luck Jerry ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:56 PM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole finder --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Ain't this just the greatest place in the world! I never fail to learn tricks DAILY ! do not archive N5SL wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Tommy there are lots of tricks. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are doing, but I've made my own hole finder (you can make a long one), I've used plexi-glass and even paper. Here are a few photos to help see what I'm saying: --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:57 PM PST US From: "Chris Boultinghouse" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Painting --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Boultinghouse" Actually, a respirator WILL do the trick with the AFS paints. No air-fed breathing equipment is needed. This is according to the manufacturer, not just my opinion. This has been discussed fairly often on the Matronics RV list. Search for AFS & PAINT and you'll find the relevant messages. These same warnings appeared there, and were countered with statements from the manufacturer. -Chris DO NOT ARCHIVE > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Philip > Condon > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:33 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Painting > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Condon" > > Don't be fooled in thinking the water based paints from AFS, Sikkens, > Grassurit (or other paint manfs) are safe to use without major breathing > equipment. Water is used as a catalyst AND you add a activator in addition > to the pigment base to the mix. Water sounds harmless, but the addition of > the activator as well as the base components do produce a spray able paint > that a pressure air breathing hood is needed. A respirator won't cut it > here. > > > Zenith-List: Painting > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > > Hi Guys, > I've been looking at painting systems and paints and have run into AFS > paints > where there are no toxic materials involved. A respirator is good > enough and > an HVLP gun will work. They have a two part polyurethane system, with > primers, etchers and cleaners for the metal aircraft and none of them > have killer > toxic products because they are a water-born product with water cleanup. > > Have any of you used this stuff? It looks pretty good on their site, > but I've no > personal experience with it. > > http://www.aircraftfinishing.com/about-us.htm > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS @ 55 hours and preparing for paint > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:27 PM PST US From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Questions On 601 XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" Thank you to everyone who provided answers to my questions, and for the encouragement to get started building. With my family's blessing, I decided to move ahead. I just submitted a registration for the next available Factory Workshop in August. In the meantime, I will start getting my workshop in shape, and continue learning what I can about the upcoming building process. I'm sure I will have a lot of questions for the group as things start to happen. I'll try to keep my posts short! Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI 601XL - decision made ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:26 PM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint source --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" $160, that's unbelievable. I paid over $300 for one gallon of NAPA red. By the time I bought everything I needed it was over 6 bills. Paint prices, auto/aircraft, have always been way too high. I'm glad to see some competition out there. Wonder if they are making it in China? Larry, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Zenith-List: Paint source > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Geronimo423@aol.com > > I just purchased a paint 'kit' from Smartshoppersinc.com. Comes with > everything but the kitchen sink. Paint, mixing cups, tyvek suit. The whole > enchilada. Price was reasonable, too. Paint is Kirker brand. Painted the underside of > my fuselage. All seemed to work out fine. > > Check them out: > > _http://smartshoppersinc.com/_ (http://smartshoppersinc.com/) > > I'm not affiliated with the company in any way. > > Roger Parnow > CH601XL Corvair Power > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:21 PM PST US From: "sportpilot" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unfortunately.... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "sportpilot" What ya looking to get for it ? if its a deal I might be interisted.. Danny.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Lamoree" Subject: Zenith-List: Unfortunately.... > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Lamoree" > > > My building has come to a premature end. > > I've recently lost my job, and can no longer make payments on my 601XL. > > I've completed the rudder, and have started the elevator. > > I have the entire kit with the additional wing lockers. > > That being said, I'm looking to sell my kit. I'd like to recoupe my > money, but am more than happy to take a couple of thousand less. > > If anyone is interested, please email me directly: > > randomminds at gmail.com > > > do not archive. > > -- > -------------------------- > Greg Lamoree > Zodiac 601 XL > www.GregsPlane.com > -------------------------- > -- > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:19 PM PST US From: "Mike H" Subject: Zenith-List: My first error --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mike H" Just started the rudder and I feel like such a dork. Don't ask, but I made one of my holes oblonged drilling rib # 3 to the spar. I read before that using the next size bigger (#20) is typically ok to do. My edge distance would still be in check. opinons? thanks! mike ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:36 PM PST US From: Todd Osborne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: My first error --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne Join the club :-) Yes, using an A5 in there should only make things better, just be careful when redrilling it that you don't let the bit walk on you. Steady.... :) Todd