---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/05/05:16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:25 AM - Re: Updated Drawings (jnbolding1) 2. 06:16 AM - Re: updates & bent parts (Zed Smith) 3. 08:03 AM - Wheel fairings (Philip Condon) 4. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: updates & bent parts (Paul Moore) 5. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: updates & bent parts (N5SL) 6. 09:19 AM - Re: Updated Drawings (Gary Gower) 7. 10:06 AM - Re: Wheel fairings (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 8. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: updates & bent parts (kevinbonds) 9. 11:43 AM - ZAC reply (kevinbonds) 10. 11:54 AM - Re: Wheel fairings (Jim Pellien) 11. 03:08 PM - 601 wheel forks (alex trent) 12. 04:06 PM - Re: Wheel fairings (royt.or@netzero.com) 13. 04:21 PM - Re: Updated Drawings (Mike Fortunato) 14. 06:11 PM - Re: Wheel Fairings For 601XL (Dave VanLanen) 15. 06:52 PM - Re: Updated Drawings (Larry Martin) 16. 11:34 PM - Re: Wheel Fairings For 601XL (Lance Gingell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:47 AM PST US From: "jnbolding1" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Updated Drawings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" I've already fabbed the right wing ribs but not spar. I notice that >the direction of the front flange on the RR's have changed. Can I just >rebend the flanges the other way on the ones I have fabbed? NO rebending allowed, use them on the other side. LOW&SLOW John ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:22 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: re: updates & bent parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith If you will bend a piece of scrap aluminum as if it were a rib flange, then bend it in the other direction (a 180 degree reversal) I would bet you'll see 'crazing' or small cracks at, or in, the bend. As others have mentioned, re-bending just isn't a good practice. zed/701/r912/etc do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:16 AM PST US From: "Philip Condon" Subject: Zenith-List: Wheel fairings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Condon" Vans aircraft has been selling a streamlined fairing for about 5 years now that replaced the ones they sold before. The newer fairings are more "submarine" shaped then traditional fairings and they do add 8 MPH over the standard fairings. Everyone who uses the new fairings loves them ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:56 AM PST US From: "Paul Moore" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: re: updates & bent parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" The rib flange that mounts to the spar is bent so the top and bottom rear rib rivet lines line up with the ones on the nose ribs. You could swap right wing ribs with left ones, but then the other rib flanges will face backward, That would affect other things like wing walk area, aileron bell crank area, etc. Option two would be to move the rivet line position over on the spar web so the top and bottom flanges line up with the nose ribs again. This might cause problems at the rear spar, if you have that pre-drilled, and possibly the aileron pushrod geometry. Another option would be to use a piece of standard L material to add a spar flange to the rear rib that points the right direction and either cut off or ignore the original one. Paul Moore XL - O-200 Do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:19 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: re: updates & bent parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL So what you are saying is that Re-fried Beans and Twice-baked potatoes don't fall under the the same rules as aluminum aircraft building? Sorry Zed, It's been a slow day on the list and I didn't see the usual humor in your email that I look forward to. Scott Laughlin N5SL (Reserved) www.cooknwithgas.com Planning, Scheming and Pondering DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE Zed Smith wrote: As others have mentioned, re-bending just isn't a good practice. zed/701/r912/etc do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:20 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Updated Drawings --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Mike, I don't know why you are so concerned about the structural integrity of the Zenith aircraft... Most of the updates by ZAC are made looking for a better airplane and or better understood construction instructions, remember that Mr Chris Heintz has more than 30 years of experience only in the Zenith Aircraft designing, is something that we should appreciate, is not easy to find in any kit or plans build arplane, to have such a great person and his team at ZAC, practically over our shoulder in all the building process, Been there done that. One of the most important points in favor of the ZAC airplanes is that even if you buy only a partial kit, you get FULL plans and instructions to build any part or the whole plane if you mess up or need to repair something of the plane. This GREAT bonus is difficult, if not impossible, to find in any other kit plane, we have some rebuilding experience here in the list... Other kit airplanes just get trashed because of the expensive it to get the factory parts to rebuild (if the factory is still in bussiness), even in minor incidents, if the factory is gone you are on your own without specific plans. Before getting involved with building a ZAC Kit, we (my Father, Brother and Myself) made our homework with several kits and plans built airplanes. The ZAC planes won hands off, all incidents/accidents we could find were pilot error or weather (well is pilot error also). Another point that I don't want to forget is the safe and easy the ZAC aircraft are to fly. I think that Mr. Heintz thought on all of us (pilots with less than 35 - 50 hours a year experience) when designing his airplanes, The idea is to enjoy the flight. Sure enough, the planes are not "fast", no Reno winners, but we are not also Reno pilots :-) The old people here say that men only fear the unknown, once they know the facts they build confidence. Now down off my soap box. Saludos Gary Gower. "Fun flying begins the moment the wheels leave the strip. Not thinking how fast we can get there... Where? Who cares. Gary Gower." Mike Fortunato wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > Any other problems I need to be aware of while making > the switch to the updated plans? You'll likely have a tough time getting an answer to that one. A lot depends on which version of the plans you have now, but there are LOTS of revisions. I asked the same question to ZAC, but never got a reply. My main concern was which items are crucial to the safety of the airframe. It would be great if they would handle updates much like software, where some are "critical". If you get an answer to that question, please post the reply. Thanks! Mike Fortunato 601XL --------------------------------- Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:41 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wheel fairings From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Ya I found ZAC's fairing to add about ZERO MPH to the HDS. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Philip Condon Subject: Zenith-List: Wheel fairings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Condon" Vans aircraft has been selling a streamlined fairing for about 5 years now that replaced the ones they sold before. The newer fairings are more "submarine" shaped then traditional fairings and they do add 8 MPH over the standard fairings. Everyone who uses the new fairings loves them ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:36:00 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: re: updates & bent parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Thanks Paul. Good Idea. Why didn't I think of that? Actually I did . . . and then forgot. Funny how that happens. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans-building. Empennage done; working on wings. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Moore Subject: RE: Zenith-List: re: updates & bent parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" Another option would be to use a piece of standard L material to add a spar flange Paul Moore XL - O-200 Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:22 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: Zenith-List: ZAC reply 1.72 MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID Message-Id for external message added locally --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Bellow is the reply I got from ZAC concerning my question about the drawing updates. I will just cross that bridge when I come to it. If need be I will add some L angle if there is some kind of interference with the current location. Kevin > I am thinking of purchasing the > update drawings. I would like the 15gal tank option. I've already > fabbed the right wing ribs but not spar. I notice that the direction > of the front flange on the RR's have changed. Can I just rebend the > flanges the other way on the ones I have fabbed? Any other problems I > need to be aware of while making the switch to the updated plans? > > Part: update drawings > > Model: ZODIAC CH 601, 5427 The direction of the spar flange on the rear ribs was changed to make the flange direction the same on all the rear ribs (similar to RR#8). The reason for the change was to simplify production tooling to press the rear ribs. How the rear ribs are made is quite independent of the fuel tank. Note: The rear ribs are attached through the spar web, the nose ribs are attached to the nose rib angle 6W3-9. Nick Heintz Zenith Aircraft Company support@zenithair.com http://www.zenithair.com Technical Support Disclaimer: While we strive to ensure that the advice/information provided through our support is correct, Zenith Aircraft Company does not accept any responsibility for errors or omissions. Any advice or information that Zenith Aircraft Company gives you via any form of communication is not a guarantee that it will correct your problem. It is only offered as assistance to you. Zenith Aircraft Company will not be held responsible for any loss or damage as a result of our advice or information supplied. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered;Plansbuilding. Empenage done; working on wings. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:45 AM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel fairings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" Phil, Does the VANS fairing fit a 601XL? How much do they cost? Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip Condon Subject: Zenith-List: Wheel fairings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Condon" Vans aircraft has been selling a streamlined fairing for about 5 years now that replaced the ones they sold before. The newer fairings are more "submarine" shaped then traditional fairings and they do add 8 MPH over the standard fairings. Everyone who uses the new fairings loves them ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:07 PM PST US From: alex trent Subject: Zenith-List: 601 wheel forks --> Zenith-List message posted by: alex trent Just completed a copy of Larry McFarland's fork bender with mods according to Mark Townsend. Works like a charm. Bent up a set of 2 in jig time, less than an hour. alex t. Zenith-List Digest Server wrote: >* > > ================================================== > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================== > >Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be found in either of the >two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >such as Notepad or with a web browser. > >HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-05-04.html > >Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-05-04.txt > > > ================================================ > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================ > > > Zenith-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Wed 05/04/05:14 > > >Today's Message Index: >---------------------- > > 1. 03:35 AM - Wheel Fairings For 601XL (Grant Corriveau) > 2. 06:27 AM - Re: Wheel Fairings For 601XL (Paul Moore) > 3. 06:28 AM - Re: Anyone selling a CH 801 - kit or one finished and (Larry.Drake@atdf.com.flying??) > 4. 07:28 AM - 601 time (john H) > 5. 08:48 AM - Geometry 101 (Zed Smith) > 6. 09:45 AM - CH 640 For Sale (Eric Parlow) > 7. 09:45 AM - Re: Wheel Fairings For 601XL (Larry McFarland) > 8. 10:08 AM - Re: Wheel Fairings For 601XL (Bryan Martin) > 9. 12:25 PM - Updated Drawings (kevinbonds) > 10. 02:01 PM - Re: Wheel Fairings For 601XL (Al Young) > 11. 03:33 PM - Re: CH 640 For Sale (Scott Moser) > 12. 04:55 PM - Re: Wheel Fairings For 601XL (Jeffrey Glasserow) > 13. 05:57 PM - Re: Wheel Fairings For 601XL (Larry McFarland) > 14. 09:04 PM - Re: Updated Drawings (Mike Fortunato) > > > >________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > >Time: 03:35:02 AM PST US >Subject: Zenith-List: Wheel Fairings For 601XL >From: Grant Corriveau > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > > >>Has anyone on the list found lighter, more streamlined fairings that can be >>fitted to the 601XL tri-gear? >> >> > >The European dealers have a smaller, narrower version. I think I bought >mine from the Czeck dealer (Chip Irwin?)... the kit was complete with all >attachment hardware etc, and the pants are well made. > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:44 PM PST US From: "royt.or@netzero.com" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wheel fairings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "royt.or@netzero.com" Last fall the Van's RV-6 "pressure recovery" wheel fairings were $43 for the front half and $70 for the rear half. PN CA157A and CA157B. No hardware included. Dave New's 601 was in KitPlanes and Sport Aviation in early 2004. He was getting 130mph with a self build Subaru in a CH601HD? (I don't remember if HD or HDS) tail dragger. Dave used RV-6 wheel fairing copies that were made 1 1/2 inches taller to better fit the Zodiac wheels. The Zenith wheel fairing on for my nose wheel increased N601RT cruise speed about 2 knots. No other fairings in use. Installing RV wheel pants is next on my list of "to do" plane tasks after getting my plane back in the air. (N601RT repairs have been completed, condition inspection and return to flying should be VERY soon.) Roy N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR equipped, 318.1hrs, 405 landings ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:56 PM PST US From: Mike Fortunato Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Updated Drawings --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > I don't know why you are so concerned about the > structural integrity of the Zenith aircraft... Well, let's see. I'm building a machine out of aluminum that I plan to sit in, fly to various altitudes, and do so with some degree of assurance that the thing won't fall apart because of a change in the plans! Now, maybe that's not an issue, and I certainly hope it isn't, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask the question. And I would ask the same question about ANYTHING airplane manufacturer, be it ZAC, Van's, or any others. And by the way, if you read ZAC's response which Kevin just posted, his last question didn't get answered as I predicted. Hopefully, we can 'assume' (and you know what they say about that word...) a non-response means that there aren't any critical issues that were changed. No need to cheerlead ZAC -- it's indisputable that Chris Heinz has a long track record. In fact, I didn't say anything to the contrary. I continue to be amazed at the cult-like responses when questioning something ZAC does or doesn't do. Just because something is good, doesn't mean that it can't be better. As my father used to say, "Satisfaction is the first sign of decay." Mike F. do not archive Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:15 PM PST US From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel Fairings For 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" The RV's also use 5.00 X 5 main gear wheels, although they are Clevelands (don't know if that makes a difference). I e-mailed Van's to ask if they thought their fairings would work on the XL. Gus Funnell replied that he thought the set they have for a flat gear leg might work. He also said their front tire is a Lamb, which is slightly smaller than 5.00 X 5, so I don't know if their nose wheel fairing would fit. I was hoping that someone else on the list had already tried the RV fairings. Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI DO NOT ARCHIVE Time: 10:08:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel Fairings For 601XL From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin The XL uses 5 x 5.00 wheels. on 5/4/05 12:43 PM, Larry McFarland at larrymc@qconline.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > > Dave, > If the standard XL tri-gear uses the same Matco 4 x 8.00 wheels and > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:10 PM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Updated Drawings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" Yep, I like them too, obviously not as much as you. You said "One of the most important points in favor of the ZAC airplanes is that even if you buy only a partial kit, you get FULL plans and instructions to build any part or the whole plane if you mess up or need to repair something of the plane." Not quite, you have to give them another $380 to get the full plans if you don't buy the entire kit. You can buy any one's plans for that. I bought every thing from them except the wings and they wouldn't come off that $380. I almost didn't buy because of that, just principal. I figured if I spent thousands of dollars with them the least they could do was give me the instructions for the parts I was buying, take the wing part out, but they wouldn't. That still hacks me off. If they gave you the entire plans when you bought a partial kit, then they owe me a refund. Larry, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Updated Drawings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > Mike, > > I don't know why you are so concerned about the structural integrity of the Zenith aircraft... > > Most of the updates by ZAC are made looking for a better airplane and or better understood construction instructions, remember that Mr Chris Heintz has more than 30 years of experience only in the Zenith Aircraft designing, is something that we should appreciate, is not easy to find in any kit or plans build arplane, to have such a great person and his team at ZAC, practically over our shoulder in all the building process, Been there done that. > > One of the most important points in favor of the ZAC airplanes is that even if you buy only a partial kit, you get FULL plans and instructions to build any part or the whole plane if you mess up or need to repair something of the plane. > This GREAT bonus is difficult, if not impossible, to find in any other kit plane, we have some rebuilding experience here in the list... > Other kit airplanes just get trashed because of the expensive it to get the factory parts to rebuild (if the factory is still in bussiness), even in minor incidents, if the factory is gone you are on your own without specific plans. > > Before getting involved with building a ZAC Kit, we (my Father, Brother and Myself) made our homework with several kits and plans built airplanes. The ZAC planes won hands off, all incidents/accidents we could find were pilot error or weather (well is pilot error also). > > Another point that I don't want to forget is the safe and easy the ZAC aircraft are to fly. I think that Mr. Heintz thought on all of us (pilots with less than 35 - 50 hours a year experience) when designing his airplanes, The idea is to enjoy the flight. Sure enough, the planes are not "fast", no Reno winners, but we are not also Reno pilots :-) > > The old people here say that men only fear the unknown, once they know the facts they build confidence. > > Now down off my soap box. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > > "Fun flying begins the moment the wheels leave the strip. Not thinking how fast we can get there... Where? Who cares. Gary Gower." > > > Mike Fortunato wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > > > Any other problems I need to be aware of while > making > > the switch to the updated plans? > > You'll likely have a tough time getting an answer to > that one. A lot depends on which version of the plans > you have now, but there are LOTS of revisions. I asked > the same question to ZAC, but never got a reply. My > main concern was which items are crucial to the safety > of the airframe. It would be great if they would > handle updates much like software, where some are > "critical". If you get an answer to that question, > please post the reply. Thanks! > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > > --------------------------------- > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour > > > -- > > -- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:34 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Wheel Fairings For 601XL From: "Lance Gingell" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" I have some RV fairings here. I've only just fitted my XL gear. It looks like they'll fit. Some of the cleveland wheels I've seen on airplanes around here have lower profile tyres(tires) than my XL has. That will certainly make a difference. The pants I have are off of an RV4, and I'm not sure, but I think they are 2+ years old. They appear as if they'll fit with a few changes around the gear leg/brake area. However, it'll be a good few months before I get to doing that. ..lance ________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Dave VanLanen Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel Fairings For 601XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" The RV's also use 5.00 X 5 main gear wheels, although they are Clevelands (don't know if that makes a difference). I e-mailed Van's to ask if they thought their fairings would work on the XL. Gus Funnell replied that he thought the set they have for a flat gear leg might work. He also said their front tire is a Lamb, which is slightly smaller than 5.00 X 5, so I don't know if their nose wheel fairing would fit. I was hoping that someone else on the list had already tried the RV fairings. Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI DO NOT ARCHIVE Time: 10:08:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel Fairings For 601XL From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin The XL uses 5 x 5.00 wheels. on 5/4/05 12:43 PM, Larry McFarland at larrymc@qconline.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > > Dave, > If the standard XL tri-gear uses the same Matco 4 x 8.00 wheels and >