Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:04 AM - Re: Barnstormers (John)
2. 05:34 AM - Re: 701 fuselage construction (jnbolding1)
3. 07:39 AM - Re: SWRFI (Randy Stout)
4. 08:17 AM - Re: NSI Subrau 108 Hp (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
5. 11:56 AM - Re: Top Coating Zinc Chromate (David Barth)
6. 12:41 PM - Re: Top Coating Zinc Chromate (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
7. 12:49 PM - Tying the tail? (Grant Corriveau)
8. 01:08 PM - Re: Top Coating Zinc Chromate (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
9. 01:09 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Craig Payne)
10. 01:23 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Richard Hutson)
11. 01:32 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Mark Townsend)
12. 01:49 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Dave Austin)
13. 02:10 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (N5SL)
14. 02:27 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Trevor Page)
15. 02:57 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Mike Sinclair)
16. 03:03 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Michel Therrien)
17. 08:01 PM - Roll-Over on CH601.org (Cdngoose)
18. 09:56 PM - NSI Engine Package (ABGS)
19. 09:56 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Bryan Martin)
20. 10:33 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Barnstormers |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John" <jlifer@bellsouth.net>
If only, $78,139 per partner over the life of the loan! I think I can get better
terms going to MY bank and then flying to Europe to have it made. :) I'll
bet you'll see plenty of similar "deals" for all SLSA aircraft. Buyer beware!
John
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 701 fuselage construction |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" <
>Dunno how you ever got through that 701 fuse assembly part, this is my next mountain
to climb.
>Just looking at the drawings think I will change the construction method, like
putting the skeleton together first, then do the skins? what do you think?
> a paradise, game of all sorts far as the eye can see.
>
>Regards,
>Dirk.
Dirk, Just finished my fuselage,plans built and will give you my assessment for
what it's worth.
I don't think the plan of building the frame and then skinning will prove to have
much merit, the internal structure is just too light.
I followed the building sequence as per CD up thru the part where the longerons
are removed from the bottom skin they were just fitted to and drilled to the
side skin . I could see lot of grief in doing that so fitted side skins with
lower longerons in place. Put lots of temporary stiffeners on the frames when
the side skins are finished, makes the top skin easier to fit. Try me off list
if you have any questions. LOW&SLOW John Bolding
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" <n282rs@earthlink.net>
The newspaper said about 400 planes showed up. Of those, 3 were Zodiacs - a
XL, HDS tail dragger, and my HD. I didn't see any other Zenith aircraft.
Hondo is a little used, but rather large airport. The ramp was fairly full,
so I'd say there was a pretty good turn out as far as aircraft. As for
vendors, forums and such, I thought it was very lacking. I think they
underestimated how many would show up.
This was the first airshow that I have flown to although it was only 20
miles away. I was worried about the approach and departure proceedures. I
was very impressed with how easy it all turned out. ATC did an excellant
job of handling the aircraft.
do not archive
Randy Stout
n282rs"at"earthlink.net
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
> [Original Message]
> From: ron wehba <rwehba@cox.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 5/16/2005 6:58:18 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: SWRFI
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba" <rwehba@cox.net>
>
> any one on here make it?? if so how was it? i could not go ,,just wanna
know?
> thanks ronw in west tx
Message 4
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| Subject: | NSI Subrau 108 Hp |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Correct...its not the carbs per se' but actually the intakes.
With the greater knowledge I know have about proper leaning procedures
on Lycomings I would like to have a way to vary the mixture manually.
It should be a cheaper installation too.
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don WALKER
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: NSI Subrau 108 Hp
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don WALKER" <d3dw@msn.com>
I think the greater problem on fuel distribution is the Stratus
intake...
before the carbs. Any carbs on that intake will give uneven flow between
front and back cylinders. If that were better engineered, I would be
happpy don
>From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: NSI Subrau 108 Hp
>Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:45:53 -0700
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>AND....I have been doing a lot of research on "proper aircraft" and
>associated leaning procedures.
>
>I have never been impressed with the carbs that vary your mixture for
>you. I can guarantee the Bing carbs on the Stratus do not give a good
>even distribution.
>
>I do know Ram were experimenting with a throttle body and I would
>imagine one could vary the mixture in flight.
>
>I think with this setup and a THOROUGH knowledge of leaning procedures
>one could have a very efficient package indeed.
>
>Frank
>
>HDS 360 hours
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
>McFarland
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NSI Subrau 108 Hp
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland
>--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
>Allan,
>Frank's right! Ram Performance would be the better representative for
>the Subaru.
>I've got a Stratus which I've no problems with thanks to Ram's rework
>of the valve guides for my heads. NSI has an atrocious history of
>dealing with people despite the attractive engineering that they've
>done on their engine. I'd not want to own an NSI Subaru and have any
>problems that required warranty or recourse from them. Very difficult
>doing any business with them. I'd recommend Rams engines and Ron is an
>excellent person to deal with.
>If I had do overs I'd still go with my Stratus because I especially
>like the redrive and the way it's put together in spite of the valve
>guide problem. It's the only water cooled engine that I can back down
>into an economical 3.5 to 4 gallons per hour and still fly 87 octane
>car gas or 100 LL at 100 mph at the price.
>If you want to go fast you need the Jab 3300 or the Corvair.
>Good luck,
>Larry McFarland - 601HDS with 57.5 hours @ www.macsmachine.com
>
>ABGS wrote:
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ABGS" <abgs@impulse.net.au>
> >
> >Hi
> >I am looking at the NSI Subrau 108 Hp engine package for my 601 XL I
> >am
>
> >enquiring as to what they like and how they proform
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Fly Safe
> >
> >Allan
> >601 XL
> >Awaiting Kit delievery
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Top Coating Zinc Chromate |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
If I prime the exterior surfaces with zinc chromate, what types of top coat
can I use over it? I have read that polyurethane should not be put on zinc
chromate, for example. Can anyone tell me what types of primers and top
coats can be put over zinc chromate?
Hey Burke.
I went to a painting workshop at Sun n Fun where the expert said you would have
to remove any Zinc Chromate you have on the exterior before you finish paint.
Either the finish paint wouldn't stick to the ZnCr or he felt the ZnCr wouldn't
stick to the plane as well as the proper primer. Either way, stay away from
Chromate on the exterior surfaces. FWIW
David
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Working on Wings
www.ch601.org
---------------------------------
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Top Coating Zinc Chromate |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Burke, David is correct. You really don't want to try to paint over zinc.
The zinc crow is more of a powder than a sealer. It is almost unsandable as
well. To see this is true just feel some when you rub it. It won't feather out
for
snot. Further, the primer you use with your paint may react poorly to it.
Remember, primer for paint is a filler for all the tiny scratchs, but most of
all it is what the paint will stick to. If you are painting with one stage poly
use an epoxy primer after cleaning the metal with Scotch Brite pad, thinner
and grease/wax remover. The paint store will know which brand will achieve best
results with which paint. (or at least should know) If they don't, go to
another store. Then paint over the epoxy primer with your top coats. If need be
you can we wet sand epoxy primer for a smoother top coat. I have been painting
motorcycles, boats and hot rod cars for over 40 years (and one red and white
XL) so I'll be glad to help with your questions if I can, Best regards, Bill of
Georgia
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger?
The more I think about it the less I understand this practice. And should
the control column be secured full up or full down or full neutral?
Seems to me full neutral is the way to go so the tail surface won't
contribute to lifting the nosewheel off the ground no matter which way the
wind blows...
Furthermore, the tail ring on my HDS is not reallyt that beefy where it fits
to the fuselage. If you (or some other well-meaning 'helper' ) should tie
down the tail with a strong horizontal vector in the tiedown rope (i.e. if
the tie down spot is well aft of the plane) then I recommend you check
carefully for deformation in the rear lower rudder hinge assembly where the
tie down ring is attached. Mine showed signs of damage after such an event.
Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I think I'm
going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. This gives the added
benefit of being able to easily taxi into my parking spot from the back
without worrying about hitting the tail tie down ground ring.
Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by having the
tail tied down?
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 8
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| Subject: | Top Coating Zinc Chromate |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I haven't done much research on this subject but one thing I do know
about paint jobs is that you can add a lot of weight real fast.
On the RV I am considering using a wash primer...This does not add any
weight and simply using two coats of finish. This would be a bare
minimum paint job but it's a reasonably good compromise between looking
good and adding weight.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Top Coating Zinc Chromate
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
If I prime the exterior surfaces with zinc chromate, what types of top
coat can I use over it? I have read that polyurethane should not be put
on zinc chromate, for example. Can anyone tell me what types of primers
and top coats can be put over zinc chromate?
Hey Burke.
I went to a painting workshop at Sun n Fun where the expert said you
would have to remove any Zinc Chromate you have on the exterior before
you finish paint. Either the finish paint wouldn't stick to the ZnCr or
he felt the ZnCr wouldn't stick to the plane as well as the proper
primer. Either way, stay away from Chromate on the exterior surfaces.
FWIW
David
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Working on Wings
www.ch601.org
---------------------------------
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Have you seen this picture?
http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm
-- Craig
Grant Corriveau wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>
> So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger?
>
> The more I think about it the less I understand this practice. And should
> the control column be secured full up or full down or full neutral?
>
> Seems to me full neutral is the way to go so the tail surface won't
> contribute to lifting the nosewheel off the ground no matter which way the
> wind blows...
>
> Furthermore, the tail ring on my HDS is not reallyt that beefy where it fits
> to the fuselage. If you (or some other well-meaning 'helper' ) should tie
> down the tail with a strong horizontal vector in the tiedown rope (i.e. if
> the tie down spot is well aft of the plane) then I recommend you check
> carefully for deformation in the rear lower rudder hinge assembly where the
> tie down ring is attached. Mine showed signs of damage after such an event.
>
> Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I think I'm
> going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. This gives the added
> benefit of being able to easily taxi into my parking spot from the back
> without worrying about hitting the tail tie down ground ring.
>
> Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by having the
> tail tied down?
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard Hutson" <rhutson@midsouth.rr.com>
If you will go to http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm, you will see why you
need to tie the tail. A picture is worth a 1000 woads!!!
Just my 2 cents worth.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Grant I dont' need to answer your question in text please go to this link
and wait for the picture at the top to come up.
http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm
This picture depicts what can happen to a 601 that does not have the tail
tied down. A picture can explain alot and notice that both the wings are
still tied down
Mark Townsend
----- Original Message -----
> So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger?
>
> Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I think I'm
> going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. .
>
> Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by having the
> tail tied down?
>
> --
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Grant,
I think a good wind from the rear could quite easily flip the aircraft over,
pivoting on either main and the nose wheel.
I've always tied mine down, but loosely.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Grant:
I guess you've seen the picture on ch601.org now, huh? Just kidding. To address
your other issue about the deformation, I made a more beefy tie-down for my
airplane here:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_14_04_TailSkid.JPG
It uses a thin piece of chromoly with a welded bolt and riveted to the lower longerons
along with a revised lower bearing plate here:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_11_04_TailSkid.JPG
I know - it seems like a lot of work, but I enjoyed every minute of it.
Scott Laughlin
N5SL (Reserved)
www.cooknwithgas.com
Staring at my engine parts, scratching my head.
Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau
So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger?
I recommend you check carefully for deformation in the rear lower rudder hinge
assembly where the tie down ring is attached. Mine showed signs of damage after
such an event.
---------------------------------
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca>
My understanding was that particular 601 WAS tied down at the tail
but the ~100Kmh winds on a particular day in March of 2002 was just
too much for the tie-down to handle.
I know about the accident, my plane was damaged slightly in an open-
ended hangar during that storm!
Trevor Page
601HD C-IDUS
On May 17, 2005, at 4:31 PM, Mark Townsend wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend"
> <601xl@sympatico.ca>
>
> Grant I dont' need to answer your question in text please go to
> this link
> and wait for the picture at the top to come up.
>
> http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm
>
> This picture depicts what can happen to a 601 that does not have
> the tail
> tied down. A picture can explain alot and notice that both the
> wings are
> still tied down
>
> Mark Townsend
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger?
>>
>> Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I
>> think I'm
>> going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. .
>>
>> Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by
>> having the
>> tail tied down?
>>
>> --
>> Grant Corriveau
>> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>>
>>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Although if you look at the picture, the plane position and the location of the
straps holding the wings, it appears that the plane tried to take off (could have
maybe raised the blocks a few inches (or feet)) and after doing 180 degrees of
the
loop, stopped. If that was the case, then a tail tie down would have only
shortened the distance the aircraft traveled during the performance of it's solo
aerobatic maneuver.
Do Not Archive
Craig Payne wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> Have you seen this picture?
>
> http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm
>
> -- Craig
>
> Grant Corriveau wrote:
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> >
> > So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
What I notice is that there is not much space for
passenger and pilot shoulders and heads when the plane
is in this position. That clearly depicts the issue
with having no rollbar on the 601. I hope I never do
like a RV-6 did a week or so ago at CYHU.
Michel
PS: For the tail, I've seen a C-172 what went crazy
(skidding sideways) just as we untied its tail last
winter. There was a kind of wind-storm with freezing
rain and we wanted to move the plane a bit to put
pieces of wood under the wheels (so that they were not
to get in frozen water). I think it is best to tie the
tail.
--- Mark Townsend <601xl@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend"
> <601xl@sympatico.ca>
>
> Grant I dont' need to answer your question in text
> please go to this link
> and wait for the picture at the top to come up.
>
> http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm
>
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 17
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| Subject: | Roll-Over on CH601.org |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Trevor is right, the 601HD was damaged in a storm but it was tied down
with the yellow polypropylene rope that had severe weather damage and
age. Though it flipped in a wind storm take note that the rope broke at
a lower wind speed and flipped the plane long before the climax of the
storm. The blocks it was tied to didn't move at all. This picture was
placed on our site as a reminder to make sure your rope is of good
quality and in Grants question, proof that the tail needs to be tied
down. To answer Michel, the tubes located behind the seats supporting
the top of the baggage compartment were not damaged, canopy was toast
and fuselage was bent , but the rudder took most of the forces. I'm in
no way saying that some sort of improvement in rollover protection
wouldn't be welcomed, but the plane isn't tissue paper either. By the
way folks thanks for using our website to help others out, which is the
sole reason why we made it.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751
President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca>
My understanding was that particular 601 WAS tied down at the tail
but the ~100Kmh winds on a particular day in March of 2002 was just
too much for the tie-down to handle.
I know about the accident, my plane was damaged slightly in an open-
ended hangar during that storm!
Trevor Page
601HD C-IDUS
Message 18
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| Subject: | NSI Engine Package |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ABGS" <abgs@impulse.net.au>
Thanks to all for you on list and off lists replies
Allan
601 XL
Awaiting Kit Delivery
Do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
If those blocks aren't imbedded in the ground, tying down to them is pretty
much useless. If you are thinking of tying down your plane to cement blocks,
ask yourself this: can you put those blocks in the plane and take off with
them? If so, they're not heavy enough to tie down to in a strong wind.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
on 5/17/05 5:57 PM, Mike Sinclair at mike.sinclair@att.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>
> Although if you look at the picture, the plane position and the location of
> the
> straps holding the wings, it appears that the plane tried to take off (could
> have
> maybe raised the blocks a few inches (or feet)) and after doing 180 degrees of
> the
> loop, stopped. If that was the case, then a tail tie down would have only
> shortened the distance the aircraft traveled during the performance of it's
> solo
> aerobatic maneuver.
>
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| Subject: | Re: Tying the tail? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
The wing tie-down rings on the 601 are far enough forward to help keep the
nose on the ground in strong winds but you also need to tie down the tail
and lock the controls nose down.
If the wind is from the front, the down elevator will apply a down force to
the nosewheel and the tail tie-down and weather vane effect will help
prevent the tail from rising very far. This will tend to keep the angle of
attack of the wings low enough to minimize the lift generated by them. Since
this is the way the plane was designed to encounter high airspeeds, it is a
fairly stable condition.
The airplane is not designed to move through the air backwards so a strong
wind from the rear results in an unstable configuration. The airplane will
have a strong tendency to point itself into the wind. The wing tie-downs
will prevent the plane from rotating around the vertical axis so the plane
will try to rotate around the lateral axis. The tail will either try to rise
or drop, of the two, dropping the tail is preferred because, in the worst
case, the ground will limit how far it will travel. A tail tie-down will
help prevent the tail from rising and the down elevator will also tend to
force the tail down.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
on 5/17/05 3:49 PM, Grant Corriveau at grantc@ca.inter.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>
> So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger?
>
> The more I think about it the less I understand this practice. And should
> the control column be secured full up or full down or full neutral?
>
> Seems to me full neutral is the way to go so the tail surface won't
> contribute to lifting the nosewheel off the ground no matter which way the
> wind blows...
>
> Furthermore, the tail ring on my HDS is not reallyt that beefy where it fits
> to the fuselage. If you (or some other well-meaning 'helper' ) should tie
> down the tail with a strong horizontal vector in the tiedown rope (i.e. if
> the tie down spot is well aft of the plane) then I recommend you check
> carefully for deformation in the rear lower rudder hinge assembly where the
> tie down ring is attached. Mine showed signs of damage after such an event.
>
> Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I think I'm
> going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. This gives the added
> benefit of being able to easily taxi into my parking spot from the back
> without worrying about hitting the tail tie down ground ring.
>
> Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by having the
> tail tied down?
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