---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/17/05: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:04 AM - Re: Barnstormers (John) 2. 05:34 AM - Re: 701 fuselage construction (jnbolding1) 3. 07:39 AM - Re: SWRFI (Randy Stout) 4. 08:17 AM - Re: NSI Subrau 108 Hp (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 5. 11:56 AM - Re: Top Coating Zinc Chromate (David Barth) 6. 12:41 PM - Re: Top Coating Zinc Chromate (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 7. 12:49 PM - Tying the tail? (Grant Corriveau) 8. 01:08 PM - Re: Top Coating Zinc Chromate (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 01:09 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Craig Payne) 10. 01:23 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Richard Hutson) 11. 01:32 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Mark Townsend) 12. 01:49 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Dave Austin) 13. 02:10 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (N5SL) 14. 02:27 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Trevor Page) 15. 02:57 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Mike Sinclair) 16. 03:03 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Michel Therrien) 17. 08:01 PM - Roll-Over on CH601.org (Cdngoose) 18. 09:56 PM - NSI Engine Package (ABGS) 19. 09:56 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Bryan Martin) 20. 10:33 PM - Re: Tying the tail? (Bryan Martin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:04 AM PST US From: "John" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Barnstormers --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John" If only, $78,139 per partner over the life of the loan! I think I can get better terms going to MY bank and then flying to Europe to have it made. :) I'll bet you'll see plenty of similar "deals" for all SLSA aircraft. Buyer beware! John ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:03 AM PST US From: "jnbolding1" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 fuselage construction --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" < >Dunno how you ever got through that 701 fuse assembly part, this is my next mountain to climb. >Just looking at the drawings think I will change the construction method, like putting the skeleton together first, then do the skins? what do you think? > a paradise, game of all sorts far as the eye can see. > >Regards, >Dirk. Dirk, Just finished my fuselage,plans built and will give you my assessment for what it's worth. I don't think the plan of building the frame and then skinning will prove to have much merit, the internal structure is just too light. I followed the building sequence as per CD up thru the part where the longerons are removed from the bottom skin they were just fitted to and drilled to the side skin . I could see lot of grief in doing that so fitted side skins with lower longerons in place. Put lots of temporary stiffeners on the frames when the side skins are finished, makes the top skin easier to fit. Try me off list if you have any questions. LOW&SLOW John Bolding ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:14 AM PST US From: "Randy Stout" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: SWRFI --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" The newspaper said about 400 planes showed up. Of those, 3 were Zodiacs - a XL, HDS tail dragger, and my HD. I didn't see any other Zenith aircraft. Hondo is a little used, but rather large airport. The ramp was fairly full, so I'd say there was a pretty good turn out as far as aircraft. As for vendors, forums and such, I thought it was very lacking. I think they underestimated how many would show up. This was the first airshow that I have flown to although it was only 20 miles away. I was worried about the approach and departure proceedures. I was very impressed with how easy it all turned out. ATC did an excellant job of handling the aircraft. do not archive Randy Stout n282rs"at"earthlink.net www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 > [Original Message] > From: ron wehba > To: > Date: 5/16/2005 6:58:18 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: SWRFI > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba" > > any one on here make it?? if so how was it? i could not go ,,just wanna know? > thanks ronw in west tx ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: NSI Subrau 108 Hp From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Correct...its not the carbs per se' but actually the intakes. With the greater knowledge I know have about proper leaning procedures on Lycomings I would like to have a way to vary the mixture manually. It should be a cheaper installation too. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don WALKER Subject: RE: Zenith-List: NSI Subrau 108 Hp --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don WALKER" I think the greater problem on fuel distribution is the Stratus intake... before the carbs. Any carbs on that intake will give uneven flow between front and back cylinders. If that were better engineered, I would be happpy don >From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: NSI Subrau 108 Hp >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:45:53 -0700 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >AND....I have been doing a lot of research on "proper aircraft" and >associated leaning procedures. > >I have never been impressed with the carbs that vary your mixture for >you. I can guarantee the Bing carbs on the Stratus do not give a good >even distribution. > >I do know Ram were experimenting with a throttle body and I would >imagine one could vary the mixture in flight. > >I think with this setup and a THOROUGH knowledge of leaning procedures >one could have a very efficient package indeed. > >Frank > >HDS 360 hours > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry >McFarland >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NSI Subrau 108 Hp > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland >--> > >Allan, >Frank's right! Ram Performance would be the better representative for >the Subaru. >I've got a Stratus which I've no problems with thanks to Ram's rework >of the valve guides for my heads. NSI has an atrocious history of >dealing with people despite the attractive engineering that they've >done on their engine. I'd not want to own an NSI Subaru and have any >problems that required warranty or recourse from them. Very difficult >doing any business with them. I'd recommend Rams engines and Ron is an >excellent person to deal with. >If I had do overs I'd still go with my Stratus because I especially >like the redrive and the way it's put together in spite of the valve >guide problem. It's the only water cooled engine that I can back down >into an economical 3.5 to 4 gallons per hour and still fly 87 octane >car gas or 100 LL at 100 mph at the price. >If you want to go fast you need the Jab 3300 or the Corvair. >Good luck, >Larry McFarland - 601HDS with 57.5 hours @ www.macsmachine.com > >ABGS wrote: > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ABGS" > > > >Hi > >I am looking at the NSI Subrau 108 Hp engine package for my 601 XL I > >am > > >enquiring as to what they like and how they proform > > > >Thanks > > > >Fly Safe > > > >Allan > >601 XL > >Awaiting Kit delievery > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:56:27 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Top Coating Zinc Chromate --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth If I prime the exterior surfaces with zinc chromate, what types of top coat can I use over it? I have read that polyurethane should not be put on zinc chromate, for example. Can anyone tell me what types of primers and top coats can be put over zinc chromate? Hey Burke. I went to a painting workshop at Sun n Fun where the expert said you would have to remove any Zinc Chromate you have on the exterior before you finish paint. Either the finish paint wouldn't stick to the ZnCr or he felt the ZnCr wouldn't stick to the plane as well as the proper primer. Either way, stay away from Chromate on the exterior surfaces. FWIW David David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org --------------------------------- Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:42 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Top Coating Zinc Chromate --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Burke, David is correct. You really don't want to try to paint over zinc. The zinc crow is more of a powder than a sealer. It is almost unsandable as well. To see this is true just feel some when you rub it. It won't feather out for snot. Further, the primer you use with your paint may react poorly to it. Remember, primer for paint is a filler for all the tiny scratchs, but most of all it is what the paint will stick to. If you are painting with one stage poly use an epoxy primer after cleaning the metal with Scotch Brite pad, thinner and grease/wax remover. The paint store will know which brand will achieve best results with which paint. (or at least should know) If they don't, go to another store. Then paint over the epoxy primer with your top coats. If need be you can we wet sand epoxy primer for a smoother top coat. I have been painting motorcycles, boats and hot rod cars for over 40 years (and one red and white XL) so I'll be glad to help with your questions if I can, Best regards, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger? The more I think about it the less I understand this practice. And should the control column be secured full up or full down or full neutral? Seems to me full neutral is the way to go so the tail surface won't contribute to lifting the nosewheel off the ground no matter which way the wind blows... Furthermore, the tail ring on my HDS is not reallyt that beefy where it fits to the fuselage. If you (or some other well-meaning 'helper' ) should tie down the tail with a strong horizontal vector in the tiedown rope (i.e. if the tie down spot is well aft of the plane) then I recommend you check carefully for deformation in the rear lower rudder hinge assembly where the tie down ring is attached. Mine showed signs of damage after such an event. Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I think I'm going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. This gives the added benefit of being able to easily taxi into my parking spot from the back without worrying about hitting the tail tie down ground ring. Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by having the tail tied down? -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:05 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Top Coating Zinc Chromate From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I haven't done much research on this subject but one thing I do know about paint jobs is that you can add a lot of weight real fast. On the RV I am considering using a wash primer...This does not add any weight and simply using two coats of finish. This would be a bare minimum paint job but it's a reasonably good compromise between looking good and adding weight. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Top Coating Zinc Chromate --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth If I prime the exterior surfaces with zinc chromate, what types of top coat can I use over it? I have read that polyurethane should not be put on zinc chromate, for example. Can anyone tell me what types of primers and top coats can be put over zinc chromate? Hey Burke. I went to a painting workshop at Sun n Fun where the expert said you would have to remove any Zinc Chromate you have on the exterior before you finish paint. Either the finish paint wouldn't stick to the ZnCr or he felt the ZnCr wouldn't stick to the plane as well as the proper primer. Either way, stay away from Chromate on the exterior surfaces. FWIW David David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org --------------------------------- Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:02 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne Have you seen this picture? http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm -- Craig Grant Corriveau wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger? > > The more I think about it the less I understand this practice. And should > the control column be secured full up or full down or full neutral? > > Seems to me full neutral is the way to go so the tail surface won't > contribute to lifting the nosewheel off the ground no matter which way the > wind blows... > > Furthermore, the tail ring on my HDS is not reallyt that beefy where it fits > to the fuselage. If you (or some other well-meaning 'helper' ) should tie > down the tail with a strong horizontal vector in the tiedown rope (i.e. if > the tie down spot is well aft of the plane) then I recommend you check > carefully for deformation in the rear lower rudder hinge assembly where the > tie down ring is attached. Mine showed signs of damage after such an event. > > Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I think I'm > going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. This gives the added > benefit of being able to easily taxi into my parking spot from the back > without worrying about hitting the tail tie down ground ring. > > Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by having the > tail tied down? > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:12 PM PST US From: "Richard Hutson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard Hutson" If you will go to http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm, you will see why you need to tie the tail. A picture is worth a 1000 woads!!! Just my 2 cents worth. DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:20 PM PST US From: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Grant I dont' need to answer your question in text please go to this link and wait for the picture at the top to come up. http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm This picture depicts what can happen to a 601 that does not have the tail tied down. A picture can explain alot and notice that both the wings are still tied down Mark Townsend ----- Original Message ----- > So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger? > > Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I think I'm > going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. . > > Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by having the > tail tied down? > > -- > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:51 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Grant, I think a good wind from the rear could quite easily flip the aircraft over, pivoting on either main and the nose wheel. I've always tied mine down, but loosely. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:24 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Grant: I guess you've seen the picture on ch601.org now, huh? Just kidding. To address your other issue about the deformation, I made a more beefy tie-down for my airplane here: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_14_04_TailSkid.JPG It uses a thin piece of chromoly with a welded bolt and riveted to the lower longerons along with a revised lower bearing plate here: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_11_04_TailSkid.JPG I know - it seems like a lot of work, but I enjoyed every minute of it. Scott Laughlin N5SL (Reserved) www.cooknwithgas.com Staring at my engine parts, scratching my head. Grant Corriveau wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger? I recommend you check carefully for deformation in the rear lower rudder hinge assembly where the tie down ring is attached. Mine showed signs of damage after such an event. --------------------------------- Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:30 PM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page My understanding was that particular 601 WAS tied down at the tail but the ~100Kmh winds on a particular day in March of 2002 was just too much for the tie-down to handle. I know about the accident, my plane was damaged slightly in an open- ended hangar during that storm! Trevor Page 601HD C-IDUS On May 17, 2005, at 4:31 PM, Mark Townsend wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" > <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > Grant I dont' need to answer your question in text please go to > this link > and wait for the picture at the top to come up. > > http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm > > This picture depicts what can happen to a 601 that does not have > the tail > tied down. A picture can explain alot and notice that both the > wings are > still tied down > > Mark Townsend > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger? >> >> Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I >> think I'm >> going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. . >> >> Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by >> having the >> tail tied down? >> >> -- >> Grant Corriveau >> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:56 PM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair Although if you look at the picture, the plane position and the location of the straps holding the wings, it appears that the plane tried to take off (could have maybe raised the blocks a few inches (or feet)) and after doing 180 degrees of the loop, stopped. If that was the case, then a tail tie down would have only shortened the distance the aircraft traveled during the performance of it's solo aerobatic maneuver. Do Not Archive Craig Payne wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne > > Have you seen this picture? > > http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm > > -- Craig > > Grant Corriveau wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > > > So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:24 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien What I notice is that there is not much space for passenger and pilot shoulders and heads when the plane is in this position. That clearly depicts the issue with having no rollbar on the 601. I hope I never do like a RV-6 did a week or so ago at CYHU. Michel PS: For the tail, I've seen a C-172 what went crazy (skidding sideways) just as we untied its tail last winter. There was a kind of wind-storm with freezing rain and we wanted to move the plane a bit to put pieces of wood under the wheels (so that they were not to get in frozen water). I think it is best to tie the tail. --- Mark Townsend <601xl@sympatico.ca> wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" > <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > Grant I dont' need to answer your question in text > please go to this link > and wait for the picture at the top to come up. > > http://www.ch601.org/stories.htm > ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:34 PM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: Zenith-List: Roll-Over on CH601.org --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Trevor is right, the 601HD was damaged in a storm but it was tied down with the yellow polypropylene rope that had severe weather damage and age. Though it flipped in a wind storm take note that the rope broke at a lower wind speed and flipped the plane long before the climax of the storm. The blocks it was tied to didn't move at all. This picture was placed on our site as a reminder to make sure your rope is of good quality and in Grants question, proof that the tail needs to be tied down. To answer Michel, the tubes located behind the seats supporting the top of the baggage compartment were not damaged, canopy was toast and fuselage was bent , but the rudder took most of the forces. I'm in no way saying that some sort of improvement in rollover protection wouldn't be welcomed, but the plane isn't tissue paper either. By the way folks thanks for using our website to help others out, which is the sole reason why we made it. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page My understanding was that particular 601 WAS tied down at the tail but the ~100Kmh winds on a particular day in March of 2002 was just too much for the tie-down to handle. I know about the accident, my plane was damaged slightly in an open- ended hangar during that storm! Trevor Page 601HD C-IDUS ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:50 PM PST US From: "ABGS" Subject: Zenith-List: NSI Engine Package --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ABGS" Thanks to all for you on list and off lists replies Allan 601 XL Awaiting Kit Delivery Do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin If those blocks aren't imbedded in the ground, tying down to them is pretty much useless. If you are thinking of tying down your plane to cement blocks, ask yourself this: can you put those blocks in the plane and take off with them? If so, they're not heavy enough to tie down to in a strong wind. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. on 5/17/05 5:57 PM, Mike Sinclair at mike.sinclair@att.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair > > Although if you look at the picture, the plane position and the location of > the > straps holding the wings, it appears that the plane tried to take off (could > have > maybe raised the blocks a few inches (or feet)) and after doing 180 degrees of > the > loop, stopped. If that was the case, then a tail tie down would have only > shortened the distance the aircraft traveled during the performance of it's > solo > aerobatic maneuver. > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tying the tail? From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin The wing tie-down rings on the 601 are far enough forward to help keep the nose on the ground in strong winds but you also need to tie down the tail and lock the controls nose down. If the wind is from the front, the down elevator will apply a down force to the nosewheel and the tail tie-down and weather vane effect will help prevent the tail from rising very far. This will tend to keep the angle of attack of the wings low enough to minimize the lift generated by them. Since this is the way the plane was designed to encounter high airspeeds, it is a fairly stable condition. The airplane is not designed to move through the air backwards so a strong wind from the rear results in an unstable configuration. The airplane will have a strong tendency to point itself into the wind. The wing tie-downs will prevent the plane from rotating around the vertical axis so the plane will try to rotate around the lateral axis. The tail will either try to rise or drop, of the two, dropping the tail is preferred because, in the worst case, the ground will limit how far it will travel. A tail tie-down will help prevent the tail from rising and the down elevator will also tend to force the tail down. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. on 5/17/05 3:49 PM, Grant Corriveau at grantc@ca.inter.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > So, why do we tie down the tail when parking a nose-dragger? > > The more I think about it the less I understand this practice. And should > the control column be secured full up or full down or full neutral? > > Seems to me full neutral is the way to go so the tail surface won't > contribute to lifting the nosewheel off the ground no matter which way the > wind blows... > > Furthermore, the tail ring on my HDS is not reallyt that beefy where it fits > to the fuselage. If you (or some other well-meaning 'helper' ) should tie > down the tail with a strong horizontal vector in the tiedown rope (i.e. if > the tie down spot is well aft of the plane) then I recommend you check > carefully for deformation in the rear lower rudder hinge assembly where the > tie down ring is attached. Mine showed signs of damage after such an event. > > Unless someone comes up with something I haven't thought of I think I'm > going to go with wings-only tie downs from now on. This gives the added > benefit of being able to easily taxi into my parking spot from the back > without worrying about hitting the tail tie down ground ring. > > Any other thoughts on this? Anyone seen a nose-dragger saved by having the > tail tied down?