---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/08/05: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:17 AM - Prop needed. (Johann G.) 2. 04:34 AM - Re: Unbelieveable ------crash (Zodie Rocket) 3. 04:55 AM - Re: Help finding the right kit (Don WALKER) 4. 05:12 AM - Re: Unbelieveable ------crash (ron dewees) 5. 05:17 AM - Re: Fuel line protection needed? (Mike Fothergill) 6. 06:41 AM - Re: Unbelieveable ------crash (Johann G.) 7. 07:16 AM - Re: Fuel line protection needed? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 8. 07:18 AM - Re: Unbelieveable ------crash (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 08:02 AM - Re: IFR vs IMC? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 10. 08:25 AM - The Crash! (Zed Smith) 11. 08:26 AM - Re: unbelieveable (Fred Sanford) 12. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: unbelieveable (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 13. 09:20 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: Fuel line protection (John M. Goodings) 14. 09:46 AM - Re: Unbelieveable ------crash new set of wings and slats (Skyshop) 15. 09:50 AM - Re: Unbelieveable ------crash (Leo Corbalis) 16. 10:14 AM - Re: Unbelieveable ------crash (Kent Brown) 17. 10:24 AM - Re: Unbelieveable ------crash (Kent Brown) 18. 10:59 AM - Re: Unbelieveable ------crash (Gary Gower) 19. 11:19 AM - More crash..... (Zed Smith) 20. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Fuel line protection (Jim and Lucy) 21. 02:37 PM - Re: Fuel line protection needed? (Peter Dunning) 22. 04:05 PM - Re: Prop needed. (Rick R) 23. 04:10 PM - 601XL VNE (The Keeners) 24. 04:27 PM - Re: Prop needed. (Bryan Martin) 25. 04:30 PM - pitot location (Mark Sandidge) 26. 04:43 PM - Re: Fuel line protection needed? (Peter Dunning) 27. 04:49 PM - Re: pitot location (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 28. 04:58 PM - Re: Fuel line protection needed? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 29. 05:20 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: Fuel line protection (Peter Dunning) 30. 05:21 PM - Re: Fuel line protection needed? (Jon Croke) 31. 06:05 PM - Re: pitot location (Larry McFarland) 32. 10:07 PM - Re: Fuel line protection needed? (Graham Kirby) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:21 AM PST US From: "Johann G." Subject: Zenith-List: Prop needed. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Hello list members. Like Fred Sanford, I had the same unbelievable misfortune while moving my new Zenith to the airport. It got damaged when it fell of the trailer. I know is was my fault, and I am trying to live with it, but s--- happens, and I am almost finished repairing the damage, but the propeller I was using is a Kiev Hot Prop #263. Two blades got damaged, and it will take 4-6 week until I can get the replacement blades. I can not wait that long. Summer will be over by then in Iceland. Does anyone have a composite propeller that will fit the Rotax 912 UL engine for my Zenith 701? I look forward to your reply. Best wishes, Johann G. Iceland. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:04 AM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Fred, I'm at a loss as to what to say in comfort, That really sucks ! One thing is that you will be a lot faster making another wing with the experience and knowledge you already have. Maybe you can force the kid from the 172 to help out as payment for his stupidity. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Sanford Subject: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford There it was, my 701, minding it's own business - just sitting there on the ramp at Santa Ynez, Ca. Waiting for the DAR in two weeks, so it could get flying. Some kid in a Cessna 172 tried taking off with a full load of people and FULL FLAPS stalled, and crashed 10 feet in front of my 701 - hitting my slats and wing on the way down. I believe the wing is beyond repair. Another wing and slat to build!! I did enjoy the building, but was ready to move on to the next phase. Oh well.........Fred Sanford N9701 Santa Barbara, Ca. Pictures: http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck1.jpg http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck2.jpg http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck3.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:08 AM PST US From: "Don WALKER" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Help finding the right kit --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don WALKER" Golf clubs and knurled guides! Well, Frank is right. Heating wasn't the problem. Mine never showed signs of overheating and three cylinders failed...one at 180 degrees head temp on a cold day. All three were knurled. One of the failures was on a REPLACEMENT head sent from Stratus after the first failure. That was also knurled, inspite of the analysis of the problem I had shared with Michael at Stratus. At taht point he didn't have much experience with aircraft applications, not being a pilot and having just bought the company. I relpaced the engine with a soob I built up...with stockguides (untampered with) and no problem since. As for the clubs.I carry mine in my HDS diagonally in the baggage area, but the heads extend slightly into the right seat. An extended baggage area will definitely carry two sets...no problem. don walker >From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Help finding the right kit >Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:01:49 -0700 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >Actually the root cause was not overheating...That was the engine >converter's claim...But it is not the truth...Knurling guides is a botch >job pure and simple. I don't care how badly engines are overheated valve >guides will never come out if they are installed correctly. > >Also note my engine never overheated in flight...It did briefly before >the first flight...The second TWO failures were nothing to do with over >heating. > >In any case if the guide is made two thou oversize and heat shrunk into >the head it will never come out. > >So actually now I love my little engine, as Larry pointed out it is a >good fit for 120mph flying...and now it has been properly sorted with >guides that have been made with a step on the outside and propely fitted >it has been perfectly reliable. > >Thankyou Ram Performance for understanding and fixing the problem oce >and for all when no one else could. > >Okay now to the other point.....Lycomings and Continentals will run just >fine on autofuel....A lot of nervousness about doing so but more and >more evidence points to these engines being perfectly happy on premium >mogas...will also run on 87 octane if you order the engine with a >reduced compression ratio. > >The second point..Continental motors at least can be made to run MORE >efficiently than a Subaru, unless the soob has a balanced FI system and >can manually adjust the mixture in flight....BSFC of 0.38 vs about 0.42 >in the soob on a good day..(Bsfc is the lbs of fuel burned per horse >power-hour...I.e an efficiency measure) > >The more I look into so called proper airplane engines, they are not >quite the dynosaurs we auto engined freaks tend to think they are as >long as they have a properly balanced FI system installed. > >The biggest problem is them being aircooled...But this also means less >drag...Not a big deal at 100mph but at 200mph this becomes more >significant....Add this to a more efficient motor in the first place and >well...I think we'll be seeing them for a very long time. > >Frank > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry >McFarland >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help finding the right kit > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland >--> > >Rob, >The engine problems mentioned are all valve guide failures that were the >result of an overheated Subaru. The attention taken in seating the valve >guides during engine remanufacture was the result of knurling and >reinstalling the guides. >Not a unique problem for the Subaru, but this has occured in several >aircraft because the attention to cooling was not considered. >I fly a Subaru because I like water cooled engines and I've made the >effort to not have any problems. There are several thousand Subarus >flying in Gyros, Kitfoxes and Zenith 601s. They are inexpensive to a >fault and are a great engine for aircraft that need only 120 mph cruise >or less. I fly for 3.2 gallons per hour at 100 mph and 5 gallons per >hour at 120 mph. There are few aircraft that can claim economy like >that, and when gas prices invert to $6/gal one day soon, I'll still be >flying at less than $20/hr. At prices for aircraft fuel, some will be >rethinking those 20K Lycs and Continentals that don't burn less than 7 >gph. > >Larry McFarland - 601HDS > >Rob Campbell wrote: > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rob Campbell <1global@adelphia.net> > > > >Frank, > >Am I safe to assume that you are not a fan of automotive conversions > >anymore? Three engine failures? Wow. that's way beyond my pucker > >factor. That's more than a lifetimes worth. What were those failures > >caused from and what type of engines were they? Flying IFR and flying > >IMC are 2 different animals as well. For me, single engine IMC must be > > >done only by necessity for very short periods of time, if > >ever. Single engine IFR is smart in and out of congested areas such > >as flying from Southern California (where I live) to Vegas, Phoenix, or > > >the Bay Area, for example. > > > >On Jun 7, 2005, at 8:19 AM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > > > > > > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George > >>(Corvallis)" > >> > >>You do not need vacuum (in fact I would not have it as a gift!) for > >>IFR but you do need all the functionality that the vacuum offers and > >>that will cost you around 16k minimum for all the instruments. > >> > >>And believe me that is about as low as you want to go flying IFR. > >> > >>As to engines, flying IFR is a whole different kettle of fish, I have > >>had three engine failurs on a highly regarded auto conversion...All of > > >>them ended without incident but if it had been IMC conditions the > >>pucker factor would have gone up by about 10X... > >> > >>IMC flying is a very serious and very expensive business. > >> > >>Of course light aircraft and IFR are completely different > >>animals...Not the same airplane or pilot...:) > >> > >>Frank > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > >>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob > >>Campbell > >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help finding the right kit > >> > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rob Campbell <1global@adelphia.net> > >> > >>Hello All, > >> Can you make the baggage compartment in the 601 50 inches long? > > >>I saw a 601 a few days ago down at Camarillo airport EAA for final > >>assembly. I noticed the baggage about 36 inches deep and I was > >>wondering if it could be lengthened. This guy did a beautiful job > >>building as was not even a pilot yet! He said a friend is going to > >>do the fly-off. He used a Suzuki engine and said he only had $2600 > >>firewall forward! Very cool. I like the Corvair idea after seeing > >>their site and reading about what they do. Is there a prop that > >>gives a higher cruise but gives up some takeoff and climb capability? > >> What does complying with light aircraft standards do for me? > >> I also noticed the panel was very small. Is there a solution to > > >>make it legal IFR with a flat panel? I saw one in a magazine for > >>around $2000 that does quite a lot in one package. I also like the > >>idea of a small flat panel engine monitoring system with a built in > >>electronic checklist. Does one need standby vacuum instruments to be > >>legal IFR? > >>Rob > >> > >>On Jun 7, 2005, at 5:50 AM, Larry McFarland wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > >>> > >>> > >>>Rob, > >>>If you reduce your need for speed by 20 mph, you can golf right into > >>>your old age and comply with the light sport aircraft standards. The > > >>>601LX meets most of the other requirements with several stowage > >>>areas. If you're careful in engine selection, (Corvair) you'd be > >>>able to load the aft portion of your plane better and go faster. > >>>There are no better aircraft for the first time builder and your > >>>specifications than the 601XL. > >>>My opinion, of course > >>> > >>>Larry McFarland - 601HDS > >>>Do not archive > >>> > >>>Rob Campbell wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rob Campbell > >>>><1global@adelphia.net> > >>>> > >>>>Hello All, > >>>>Well, I'd like to build an airplane sometime soon and would like one > > >>>>that will go minimum 150 mph can carry 2 adults along with 2 sets of > > >>>>golf clubs (50" long each) with maybe 2 duffle bags as well. I'd > >>>>also like it to burn no more than 6 GPH and be capable of being > >>>>flown IFR and can be built relatively quickly (under 1500 hours). > >>>>I'd also like it to be under $40K. Oh, it must be metal > >>>>construction and suitable for the first time builder. Is such a > >>>>beast out there? > >>>>Rob > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:27 AM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hi Fred, Sooo sorry to see your perky little plane getting squashed by the 172. I know that is a real setback. Looks like you did a great job on it. I hope the 172 had insurance to cover at least your materials. Bet his passnegers and owner of the plane are standing around with hands out too. Maybe GA aircraft are jealous of Experimentals and this is the first case of backlash? Best of luck on the rebuild. You are at the very peak of your building skills now, if that is any consolation. Ron N601TD do not arachive Fred Sanford wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford > >There it was, my 701, minding it's own business - just sitting there on >the ramp at Santa Ynez, Ca. Waiting for the DAR in two weeks, so it >could get flying. > >Some kid in a Cessna 172 tried taking off with a full load of people >and FULL FLAPS stalled, and crashed 10 feet in front of my 701 - hitting >my slats and wing on the way down. I believe the wing is beyond repair. >Another wing and slat to build!! I did enjoy the building, but was ready >to move on to the next phase. > >Oh well.........Fred Sanford N9701 Santa Barbara, Ca. > >Pictures: >http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck1.jpg >http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck2.jpg >http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck3.jpg > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:56 AM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill Hi; My Facet is at the bottom of the firewall in parallel with the engine pump. The engine pump failed once and it was not noticeable without turning tha Facet off. Mike CH-601HDS UHS Spinners Peter Dunning wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Dunning > > > Hi guys, > I am intrigued by the following comment: > > >>" If you can Please put a low pressure Facet fuel pump in series with >>mechanical pump mounted down low and a bypass round the electric pump >>with a check valve. " > > > As a mechanical diaphragm pump and its associated valves can fail and > potentially > block and/or obstruct fuel flow, why would you install an electric > supplementary > pump in series with it ? Surely a better option would be to have a check > valve in series > with the mechanical pump and then have an electric Facet pump in parallel > with the > mech.pump and check valve combination ? > > Cheers > > Peter Dunning > CH601HD/912S/ZK-SPD > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:22 AM PST US From: "Johann G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Fred. I am so sorry to hear about your misfortune. I know exactly how you feel. The excitement to fly for the first time is unexplainable to someone who has not built his own aircraft. Also to see it damaged like this is really hard to face. I hope you get started soon on your rebuild. It will help you forget the hurt. There is one thing good about all this, you will get another chance to feel the excitement of flying for the first time, something your made yourself. That is how I look at it. Good luck building the new wing and slat. Best wishes, Johann G. Iceland. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Sanford" Subject: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford > > There it was, my 701, minding it's own business - just sitting there on > the ramp at Santa Ynez, Ca. Waiting for the DAR in two weeks, so it > could get flying. > > Some kid in a Cessna 172 tried taking off with a full load of people > and FULL FLAPS stalled, and crashed 10 feet in front of my 701 - hitting > my slats and wing on the way down. I believe the wing is beyond repair. > Another wing and slat to build!! I did enjoy the building, but was ready > to move on to the next phase. > > Oh well.........Fred Sanford N9701 Santa Barbara, Ca. > > Pictures: > http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck1.jpg > http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck2.jpg > http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck3.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" My comment was a "minimum" type of solution that mimics the certified installations ...Personally I would not use the mechancal pump at all as its in the wrong place. The right place being down low in a cool loacation,...Your right or course, using a paralell setup would be better as this would limit the fuel pressure to the carbs...You could then run the pump for takeoff and if the mechanical pump vlocked then who cares? Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Dunning Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Dunning Hi guys, I am intrigued by the following comment: >" If you can Please put a low pressure Facet fuel pump in series with >mechanical pump mounted down low and a bypass round the electric pump >with a check valve. " As a mechanical diaphragm pump and its associated valves can fail and potentially block and/or obstruct fuel flow, why would you install an electric supplementary pump in series with it ? Surely a better option would be to have a check valve in series with the mechanical pump and then have an electric Facet pump in parallel with the mech.pump and check valve combination ? Cheers Peter Dunning CH601HD/912S/ZK-SPD ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I am sorry Fred that's quite a blow...But relatively small in the grand scheme of things...at least when you get oast the urge to kill the little & %#$ it will be...:) Was everyone in the Cessna OK? Fank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Sanford Subject: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford There it was, my 701, minding it's own business - just sitting there on the ramp at Santa Ynez, Ca. Waiting for the DAR in two weeks, so it could get flying. Some kid in a Cessna 172 tried taking off with a full load of people and FULL FLAPS stalled, and crashed 10 feet in front of my 701 - hitting my slats and wing on the way down. I believe the wing is beyond repair. Another wing and slat to build!! I did enjoy the building, but was ready to move on to the next phase. Oh well.........Fred Sanford N9701 Santa Barbara, Ca. Pictures: http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck1.jpg http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck2.jpg http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck3.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:05 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: IFR vs IMC? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Oh Ok I see where yer coming from. Not having an IFR ticket (yet) it was a moot point when building and flying the HDS. I can tell you the HDS is pretty twicthy...lots of fun to wring out but take your eye off where you are going for half a second and you'll be going somewhere else...:) Not exactly what you want.....Having said that a Trutrack A/p will help a lot. As you say the new glass panel displays are space saving and pretty economical...All of your primary flight instruments in a single 3 1/4" display for about $2k is a real possibility...Dynon for example. Roy Thoma built an IFR panel for his HDS...wonder if he could chime in here? Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Campbell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: IFR vs IMC? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rob Campbell <1global@adelphia.net> Hi Frank, Maybe I was a little confusing when I wrote about the IFR and IMC but here's what I meant: If you are flying IFR you are not necessarily flying IMC. You may need to be on an IFR flight plan because the departure, ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:57 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: The Crash! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith Fred: In the photos there are what appear to be "scorched" places on the tarmac. Wouldn't have anything to do with your colorful use of adjectives, adverbs, etc? My condolences. Best regards, Zed/701/912/not bent, yet. do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:41 AM PST US From: Fred Sanford Subject: Zenith-List: re: unbelieveable --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford Yes, the three people survived. one with head problems. Goes to show though, that you can't trust eye witnesses. The pilot was apparently the 81-year old brand new pilot, and the 18-year olds were in the back, and he says it was on landing - not takeoff. Guess I'll go order some new parts...................Fred Sanford do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:33 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: re: unbelieveable From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" First off it seems you need to get the AIRPLANE insurers agent to write you saying its down to them to take care of it...And that means both parts and reasonable compensation for your time....AVEMCO provides $15 a hour for this and it would seem reasonable that you could look at your builders log to get a reasonable estimate of what its going to take you time wise. If the Cessna was rented it will almost certainly have hull insurance but I would get firm offer before you start ordering anything....Just my personal take on things...Now whether the pilot has renters insurance really is not your concern...You can bet it will be the pilots concern if he doesn't have any! Having crashed a C152 myself I can tell you the insurance adjuster was very reasonable, the FBO on the other hand was an @#&*$% and wanted me to pay him directly for his costs, he hired a lawyer so did I...ended up costing us BOTH a lot more than it should and it turns out it would have been much better for both of us to deal directly with the insurance company and stop playing expensive games. Anyway, all the best...Yu'll be airborne before you know it...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Sanford Subject: Zenith-List: re: unbelieveable --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford Yes, the three people survived. one with head problems. Goes to show though, that you can't trust eye witnesses. The pilot was apparently the 81-year old brand new pilot, and the 18-year olds were in the back, and he says it was on landing - not takeoff. Guess I'll go order some new parts...................Fred Sanford do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:25 AM PST US From: "John M. Goodings" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Fuel line protection --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M. Goodings" Here is another opinion, gleaned from a very knowledgeable friend's 701. I built my CH601HD with R912S with rubber fuel lines covered with white woven (glass fibre?) approved sleeve. The lines are about 1.5 years old, and I shall replace them in about a year WITHOUT a sleeve covering. I want to be able to see the rubber. With the sleeve covering, I can't. I understand that all mogas in Canada is now legislated to have some methanol content; I believe they are moving towards 10% minimum (???). I am told that the methanol has a tendency to soften the rubber. Right now, I squeeze the rubber tubing through the sleeve, but that is not very satisfactory. My conclusion: no sleeving, I want to see the rubber. I also want to see the little worm-gear clamps on the rubber around the metal tubes/hose nipples. John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Waterloo. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:14 AM PST US From: Skyshop --> Zenith-List message posted by: Skyshop Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash new set of wings and slats Fred, I'm sure you have heard about Skyshop before, we used to do builder assistance for Zenith aircraft and we still can import assemblies from our factory (Czech Aircraft Works). We can produce new set of wings and slats in very short time to get you back in the air. Let me know if we can help. Danny SKYSHOP Inc. USA distributor for Czech Aircraft Works e-mail zaneta@skyshops.org Phone # 772-223-8915 Fax # 772-382-0607 P.O. Box 1007, Palm City, FLORIDA 34991 USA www.skyshops.org > >There it was, my 701, minding it's own business - just sitting there on >the ramp at Santa Ynez, Ca. Waiting for the DAR in two weeks, so it >could get flying. > >Some kid in a Cessna 172 tried taking off with a full load of people >and FULL FLAPS stalled, and crashed 10 feet in front of my 701 - hitting >my slats and wing on the way down. I believe the wing is beyond repair. > >Another wing and slat to build!! I did enjoy the building, but was ready >to move on to the next phase. > >Oh well.........Fred Sanford N9701 Santa Barbara, Ca. > >Pictures: >http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck1.jpg >http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck2.jpg >http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck3.jpg > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:56 AM PST US From: "Leo Corbalis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis" I hope you have insurance. I crashed on the way to the airport. The trailer hitch failed. Try reporting an accident on a zero time uninspected plane. Later a drunk driver hit my parked plane. Insurance even paid me (not enough) to repair it. Leo Corbalis do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" > > Fred, I'm at a loss as to what to say in comfort, That really sucks ! > One thing is that you will be a lot faster making another wing with the > experience and knowledge you already have. Maybe you can force the kid > from the 172 to help out as payment for his stupidity. > > Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario > Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 > President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter > www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com > do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred > Sanford > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford > > There it was, my 701, minding it's own business - just sitting there on > > the ramp at Santa Ynez, Ca. Waiting for the DAR in two weeks, so it > could get flying. > > Some kid in a Cessna 172 tried taking off with a full load of people > and FULL FLAPS stalled, and crashed 10 feet in front of my 701 - hitting > > my slats and wing on the way down. I believe the wing is beyond repair. > > Another wing and slat to build!! I did enjoy the building, but was ready > > to move on to the next phase. > > Oh well.........Fred Sanford N9701 Santa Barbara, Ca. > > Pictures: > http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck1.jpg > http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck2.jpg > http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck3.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:36 AM PST US From: "Kent Brown" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" Condolences, Fred. From the pictures, it looks like you have done a beautiful job on the plane, and hope to see you in the air soon. For what it's worth, for those not familiar with that airport, a contributing factor (as they say) is undoubtedly the problem at Santa Paula since the winter flood ate away part of the runway. The centerline was shifted to allow at least limited operations there, and that puts part of the narrow (40ft) runway very close to some of the tiedowns and hangars. There's not a lot of room for error or even just sloppiness when landing at SZP. Again, sorry to hear of the bad luck, Fred. It certainly could have been much worse, too. Kent Brown 601HDS, building, building Ventura, CA > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Sanford > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:25 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford > > There it was, my 701, minding it's own business - just sitting there on > the ramp at Santa Ynez, Ca. Waiting for the DAR in two weeks, so it > could get flying. > > Some kid in a Cessna 172 tried taking off with a full load of people > and FULL FLAPS stalled, and crashed 10 feet in front of my 701 - hitting > my slats and wing on the way down. I believe the wing is beyond repair. > Another wing and slat to build!! I did enjoy the building, but was ready > to move on to the next phase. > > Oh well.........Fred Sanford N9701 Santa Barbara, Ca. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:05 AM PST US From: "Kent Brown" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" Every now and then, I get to embarrass myself a bit in public, and I just did it again. It actually gets easier with practice! I was in a big hurry when I read Fred's original message, and read Santa Paula instead of Santa Ynez, and realized my error as soon as I really looked at his pictures. So while the Santa Paula info may be mildly interesting to some, it has nothing to do with the accident to Fred's 701. So, except for my heartfelt condolences to Fred, please disregard the rest of my previous message. As the Saturday Night Live line went: Never mind. Kent > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Sanford > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:25 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford > > There it was, my 701, minding it's own business - just sitting there on > the ramp at Santa Ynez, Ca. Waiting for the DAR in two weeks, so it > could get flying. > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:01 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Mark, This is in part a good idea, but not as a "payment", what I say is not force the kid... Think on what he is going throught this moment. Just invite him to help and he might be glad to do it. Off List, can delete: This is something that happened to me a few years ago, shortly: A close friend of mine teen age son crashed in the family car when parents were out of town... Just a hard one with no serious injury, He called me and I went to help him out of the mess. The persons from the other car (in fact, was the kids fault, speed) were very agresive with him, etc... My support as an adult was just in time for him... On the way home I asked him to please drive my car, at first he didnt wanted to, now 12 years later he still remembers and appreciates my trust in him, he is a great father and worker and never had another crash... yet. For my experience, pilot kids are good boys, (does'nt matter the age :-) Saludos Gary Gower Do not archive. Zodie Rocket wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Fred, I'm at a loss as to what to say in comfort, That really sucks ! One thing is that you will be a lot faster making another wing with the experience and knowledge you already have. Maybe you can force the kid from the 172 to help out as payment for his stupidity. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Sanford Subject: Zenith-List: Unbelieveable ------crash --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford There it was, my 701, minding it's own business - just sitting there on the ramp at Santa Ynez, Ca. Waiting for the DAR in two weeks, so it could get flying. Some kid in a Cessna 172 tried taking off with a full load of people and FULL FLAPS stalled, and crashed 10 feet in front of my 701 - hitting my slats and wing on the way down. I believe the wing is beyond repair. Another wing and slat to build!! I did enjoy the building, but was ready to move on to the next phase. Oh well.........Fred Sanford N9701 Santa Barbara, Ca. Pictures: http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck1.jpg http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck2.jpg http://members.cox.net/sonar1/wreck3.jpg --------------------------------- Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:56 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: More crash..... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith I showed Fred's 701 photos to a guy who is in the salvage business. His immediate response was, "Wonder if it is too late to slap a "mechanic's lien" on the Cessna...after all, the 701 owner did do some modifications to the Cessna". do not archive Zed/still building 701 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:02 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Fuel line protection --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy At 12:19 PM 6/8/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M. Goodings" > >Here is another opinion, gleaned from a very knowledgeable friend's 701. >I understand that all mogas in Canada is now legislated to have some >methanol content; I believe they are moving towards 10% minimum (???). I >am told that the methanol I think your knowledgeable friend is confusing methanol with ethanol. JimPollard do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:10 PM PST US From: Peter Dunning Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Dunning Hi Mike, Thanks for the feedback. Peter Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fothergill" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill > > > Hi; > My Facet is at the bottom of the firewall in parallel with the engine > pump. The engine pump failed once and it was not noticeable without > turning the Facet off. > Mike > CH-601HDS > UHS Spinners ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:40 PM PST US From: Rick R Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prop needed. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick R Johann, I have a 70" IVO Ultralight in-flight adjustable for my 1.3 I won't be ready for till around DEC I hope.. I don't know about the mounting holes, etc. for your 912. Will that help?? "Johann G." wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Hello list members. Like Fred Sanford, I had the same unbelievable misfortune while moving my new Zenith to the airport. It got damaged when it fell of the trailer. I know is was my fault, and I am trying to live with it, but s--- happens, and I am almost finished repairing the damage, but the propeller I was using is a Kiev Hot Prop #263. Two blades got damaged, and it will take 4-6 week until I can get the replacement blades. I can not wait that long. Summer will be over by then in Iceland. Does anyone have a composite propeller that will fit the Rotax 912 UL engine for my Zenith 701? I look forward to your reply. Best wishes, Johann G. Iceland. Rick Orlando, FL. USA http://www.geocities.com/n701rr/index.html --------------------------------- Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:02 PM PST US From: "The Keeners" Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL VNE --> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Keeners" Does anyone know why the most recent drawings for the XL show a VNE of 160, while the Zenith home page shows 180? Just curious.... Thank you. Forest K., Rocklin, CA DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prop needed. From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin I have the blades for a three blade Warp drive prop but no hub for them. I damaged the tips of my prop during taxi testing. I ordered new blades but when I found out how long it would take to get them, I decided to try repairing the original blades and see if I could use them until the new ones arrived. I ended up trimming them about an inch and a half shorter than original and after some ground testing, I decided they were safe for flight. These HP blades are solid carbon fiber and after trimming, measured about 67 inches. I flew with them for about 30 hours on my 601XL with no problems and then replaced them with the new ones. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. on 6/8/05 7:15 AM, Johann G. at johann@gi.is wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." > > Hello list members. > > Like Fred Sanford, I had the same unbelievable misfortune while moving my new > Zenith to the airport. It got damaged when it fell of the trailer. I know is > was my fault, and I am trying to live with it, but s--- happens, and I am > almost finished repairing the damage, but the propeller I was using is a Kiev > Hot Prop #263. Two blades got damaged, and it will take 4-6 week until I can > get the replacement blades. I can not wait that long. Summer will be over by > then in Iceland. > Does anyone have a composite propeller that will fit the Rotax 912 UL engine > for my Zenith 701? > > I look forward to your reply. > Best wishes, > Johann G. > Iceland. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:35 PM PST US From: Mark Sandidge Subject: Zenith-List: pitot location --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sandidge Hi all, working on final stages of 601HDS wings and need info on where the best location for the pitot tube. I had an old fax from Zac showing between ribs 6 and 7 forward of the main spar. I have since decided to install leading edge tanks so rib 7 has moved and this location is out. Thanks Mark Sandidge ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:01 PM PST US From: Peter Dunning Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Dunning Hi Frank This subject can certainly bring forth a variety of views, but I have yet to find a reason to place a secondary fuel pump in SERIES with a mechanical pump, given that mechanical fuel pumps can (and do) fail. I refer to my Rotax 912S in saying that. A check valve should also be employed IMO to avoid any possibility of fuel circulation too. Cheers Peter Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > My comment was a "minimum" type of solution that mimics the certified > installations ...Personally I would not use the mechancal pump at all as > its in the wrong place. > > The right place being down low in a cool loacation,...Your right or > course, using a paralell setup would be better as this would limit the > fuel pressure to the carbs...You could then run the pump for takeoff and > if the mechanical pump vlocked then who cares? > > Frank ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:18 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: pitot location From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I put mine bhind the spar and in roughly the same position...One bay inboard of the tank vent...I can reach it OK through the wing baggage door. Frank HDS 360 hours...for sale..Soon..:) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sandidge Subject: Zenith-List: pitot location --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sandidge Hi all, working on final stages of 601HDS wings and need info on where the best location for the pitot tube. I had an old fax from Zac showing between ribs 6 and 7 forward of the main spar. I have since decided to install leading edge tanks so rib 7 has moved and this location is out. Thanks Mark Sandidge ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:29 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yup and I did not intend to offer it as classy solution either...The very best solution in my opinion is no Mechanical fuel pump at all! What I was trying to point out is that all certified aircraft have an electric pump in series with a mechanical pump if they are fuel injected...This is not a good solution but like many solutions it is a compromise between vapour lock avoidance and lack of reliance on an electrical system in the event of your electrical power goes south. I wouldn't do it either. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Dunning Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Dunning Hi Frank This subject can certainly bring forth a variety of views, but I have yet to find a reason to place a secondary fuel pump in SERIES with a mechanical pump, given that mechanical fuel pumps can (and do) fail. I refer to my Rotax 912S in saying that. A check valve should also be employed IMO to avoid any possibility of fuel circulation too. Cheers Peter Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > My comment was a "minimum" type of solution that mimics the certified > installations ...Personally I would not use the mechancal pump at all as > its in the wrong place. > > The right place being down low in a cool loacation,...Your right or > course, using a paralell setup would be better as this would limit the > fuel pressure to the carbs...You could then run the pump for takeoff and > if the mechanical pump vlocked then who cares? > > Frank ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:21 PM PST US From: Peter Dunning Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Fuel line protection --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Dunning Hi John, Your posting (see below) prompted me to draw your attention to one aspect of rubber clamps. On your Rotax your may have noticed that the original hose clamps are not of the "worm-gear" type.... they use a bolt and nut. I have experienced failure of "worm-gear" clamps (they let-go) if they are over-torqued unlike the Rotax method. Also, the "worm" gear can sometimes penetrate into the outer rubber of the tube when tightened down. > I also want to see the little worm-gear clamps on the rubber around >the > metal tubes/hose nipples. > > John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Waterloo. Regards Peter CH601HD/912S/ZK-SPD ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:04 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" Not to belabor this point, but I agree there are many views and respect everyone's input. I wanted to add that the head Rotax guru (employed by the Rotax factory technical support company) has stated repeatedly that it is OK to plumb an additional electric pump in series with the mechanical one on the 912 family. The Rotax mechanical one is designed to safely push fuel thru when not running and has no check valve. (It is a common auto design). Many of the popular electric pumps, I believe, have check valves in them. (please correct me if Im wrong on this). Just another thought. do not archive > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Dunning > > Hi Frank > This subject can certainly bring forth a variety of views, but I have yet > to > find a reason to place a secondary fuel pump in SERIES with a mechanical > pump, given that mechanical fuel pumps can (and do) fail. I refer to my > Rotax 912S in saying that. A check valve should also be employed IMO to > avoid any possibility of fuel circulation too. > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:15 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: pitot location --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Mark, My Pitot and static tubes are just outside the rib next to the tank. Seems to work well there. Larry McFarland -601HDS do not archive Mark Sandidge wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sandidge > >Hi all, working on final stages of 601HDS wings and need info on where the best location for the pitot tube. I had an old fax from Zac showing between ribs 6 and 7 forward of the main spar. I have since decided to install leading edge tanks so rib 7 has moved and this location is out. > >Thanks >Mark Sandidge > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:34 PM PST US From: "Graham Kirby" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel line protection needed? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graham Kirby" Jon, This is good information if it means that all the failure modes for the Rotax mechanical pump will still allow fuel to pass through it when the electric pump is left to do all the work. If not, it seems that there is better redundancy in the parallel approach that Frank mentioned. Graham Kirby 601HD ...I wanted to add that the head Rotax guru (employed by the Rotax factory technical support company) has stated repeatedly that it is OK to plumb an additional electric pump in series with the mechanical one on the 912 family....