---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/29/05: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:53 AM - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re-setting wing incidence (Trevor Page) 2. 06:40 AM - Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft (DICK WILBERS) 3. 07:17 AM - Re: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 4. 07:24 AM - Re: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft (ron dewees) 5. 08:24 AM - Re: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft () 6. 08:25 AM - Re: Tech Counselor (Don Mountain) 7. 08:50 AM - Flaperon horn - edge distance (Bill Mileski) 8. 08:51 AM - Re: Back country flying trip (Tim Egan) 9. 09:21 AM - Re: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft (Larry McFarland) 10. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: Re-setting wing incidence (Dirk Slabbert) 11. 09:50 AM - Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance (szewc@direcway.com) 12. 10:51 AM - Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance (Bill Mileski) 13. 12:03 PM - Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance (Bill Mileski) 14. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance (jnbolding1) 15. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance (Jon Croke) 16. 02:23 PM - Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance (Bill Sonalysts) 17. 02:23 PM - Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance (Bill Sonalysts) 18. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: Re-setting wing incidence (Bryan Martin) 19. 05:51 PM - Re: Re: Re-setting wing incidence (Brandon Tucker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:25 AM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: RE: RE: Re-setting wing incidence --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page Brandon, while I'm not having any trouble with nose pitch during flight I still have a bit of a heavy left wing. I'm at the point of adjusting the wing incidence (trailing edge) but I'm not sure which wing to adjust. Any suggestions? Trevor Page C-IDUS 601HD 6 hours on the meter (still battling cooling issues) On Jun 28, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Brandon Tucker wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker > > Gents, > > Ken is correct. By changing the mounting angle > of the horizontal stabilizer, you are simply changing > the force on the moment arm of the elevator / stab > assembly. This will not change the angle of attack > required of the wing to produce the required lift. > Lowering the trailing edge of the wing panel slightly > will affect a change in the amount of lift produced, > and would lower the nose slightly for a given > airspeed. This has been discussed in detail before, > and information can be found in the archives. It has > also been done on the left side to counter the heavy > left wing that some builders have experienced. They > have reported significant change with very small > adjustments. > > R/ > > Brandon > > 601 hds > airframe pretty much complete > building motor this weekend ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:13 AM PST US From: "DICK WILBERS" Subject: Zenith-List: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft 0.38 FROM_NO_LOWER From address has no lower-case characters --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DICK WILBERS" Gentlemen: I recently received a quote from Avemco for hull and liability.....$3200.00/year. Obviously these prices are un-affordable for most average folks who try to save a few bucks by building their own airplane. I know that there was some earlier correspondence regarding group insurance. Has there been any further discussion or info on this subject. Best regards..........................Richard 601 HDS / Stratus ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Of course it will depend on your total hours and hours in type but I normally pay about $1000 thru the AOPA. You may be getting a bit of the old premium increase due to "unexplained engine stoppagaes" with the Stratus motor...Not sure if it was just the Stratus or affected other soob conversions as well? In any case, get onto the AOPA at 1-800-622-2672 Tell 'em I sent ya......No they don't give me a kickback...:) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DICK WILBERS Subject: Zenith-List: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DICK WILBERS" --> Gentlemen: I recently received a quote from Avemco for hull and liability.....$3200.00/year. Obviously these prices are un-affordable for most average folks who try to save a few bucks by building their own airplane. I know that there was some earlier correspondence regarding group insurance. Has there been any further discussion or info on this subject. Best regards..........................Richard 601 HDS / Stratus ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:44 AM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hi Richard, I agree completely with the high/unaffordable rates for insurance. I think I got the same or higher quote and think my taildragger added a bit more. When I got the quote I groaned and said-- y'all really don't want to insure my plane do you? The agent sort of laughed but made a couple of suggestions. I was almost thru my 40 hours of Phase I flight and he gave me the quote from 40 hours forward so I didn't have the terribly high risk factor of the first few hours of flight. ALso I finally dropped the hull insurance and the quote came down to $800 or so. The liability coverage was as good as I have on the Mooney but I just self insure the hull. I wish it was affordable to get hull coverage but settled for just the liability. Good luck Ron DICK WILBERS wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "DICK WILBERS" > >Gentlemen: >I recently received a quote from Avemco for hull and liability.....$3200.00/year. Obviously these prices are un-affordable for most average folks who try to save a few bucks by building their own airplane. >I know that there was some earlier correspondence regarding group insurance. Has there been any further discussion or info on this subject. >Best regards..........................Richard 601 HDS / Stratus > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft From: clamav-milter version 0.80j on hestia --> Zenith-List message posted by: I'm working on it slowly byt surely! FOr the time being call Air-Pros for an Ins. quote. I have $35,00 Hull and Million Liability, etc. for $1310 a year on my HDS. Jeff Glasserow > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DICK WILBERS" > > > Gentlemen: > I recently received a quote from Avemco for hull and > liability.....$3200.00/year. Obviously these prices are un-affordable > for most average folks who try to save a few bucks by building their own > airplane. I know that there was some earlier correspondence regarding > group insurance. Has there been any further discussion or info on this > subject. Best regards..........................Richard 601 HDS / Stratus > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:44 AM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tech Counselor --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain Good morning Scott, Thanks for the information. It looks like a flight to MLE from Red Oak (RDK) is only about 40 nautical miles, plus some additional to skirt around the Omaha Class C airspace. Maybe I could fly over in my Cherokee for the July 11 meeting to meet everyone. What time are the meetings? Don 601 XL, tail done, flaps and ailerons done, wing framing done, working on wing skins > Good Morning Don: > > I didn't realize you were so close. I'm a member of > EAA Chapter 80 in Omaha. We meet the second Monday > of each month at Hangar One at the Millard Airport > (MLE). I'm the only 601 builder amongst a lot of RV > guys so it would be nice to have you there for > support. You are welcome to come by and see my "90% > complete, 90% to go" 601XL project any time. If the > wind ever calms down I could use some help > installing my wings for a test fit. > > Mike Howard is our EAA Tech. Counselor and can be > reached at acepilot59@aol.com. Mike built an RV-6 a > few years ago and might be able to zip over to Red > Oak to visit your project. I can give you his phone > number if you would rather call him. > > Scott Laughlin > 601XL/Corvair > Waiting on my Prop Hub from William Wynne > I live just outside Red Oak, Iowa, in the SouthWest > corner. How would I contact one of these EAA members > for this service. Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:26 AM PST US From: Bill Mileski Subject: Zenith-List: Flaperon horn - edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Mileski Hello, I'm installing the flaperon control horns on the 701, part 7A2-5.. What concerns me is the location of the 5/16" hole for the pushrod connection. The plans state 8mm radius around this hole, which leaves only about 4mm or aluminum around it. I guess this would be described as 1.5x edge distance. This part is 0.090 aluminum, and this seems a little dicey. Am I missing something? I'm also not crazy about the quick disconnect for the flaperons, and haven't quite figured out a good option using standard rod end.. Advice appreciated, Bill Mileski ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:44 AM PST US From: "Tim Egan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Back country flying trip --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Egan" Dave, I've got a 601hd in Rigby, Idaho and can help show you flights around this area, including over yellowstone park, Driggs Idaho and the Tetons, and a few other spots. Keep in touch. Tim Egan ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Zenith-List: Back country flying trip > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com > > > I have a couple weeks off in the middle of August. I am thinking about > flying my 701 from the Seattle area to Wyoming and back. I will have camping gear. > I would love to visit with builders or anyone else that has a place for me > to land. If you know of a neat place or would be willing to share tips and > pointers about back country flying I would welcome the info. Are there other > 701's or Cubs interested in a trip? Suggestions? > > Dave Smith > Graham WA. > > > Do not archive < > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:54 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hull/liability insurance on the Zenith aircraft --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Richard, Try Falcon Insurance Agency, Aviation Insurance Specialists our of Kerrville, TX My hull at $35K, liability at $1M and all come to $1455 for my 601HDS. Of course the variables of your licence, hours, accident history etc all play a part in your cost, but this is about half the price of what you've been offered so far. I signed up with them at Sun & Fun a year ago. Good luck, Larry McFarland - 601hds w/Stratus Subaru DICK WILBERS wrote: >I recently received a quote from Avemco for hull and liability.....$3200.00/year. Obviously these prices are un-affordable for most average folks who try to save a few bucks by building their own airplane. >I know that there was some earlier correspondence regarding group insurance. Has there been any further discussion or info on this subject. >Best regards..........................Richard 601 HDS / Stratus > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:37 AM PST US From: "Dirk Slabbert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Re-setting wing incidence --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" I should have said 701! This uses an asym airfoil for the horizontal stab, thus my thought to perhaps adjust the AoA to achieve hands off cruise, without having to interfere with the main wing. Nothing is ever perfect, my horizontal came out slightly bulged at the outer flat section, no matter how hard I tried, skin under stress, lack of a rib I suppose. Creating somewhat of an airfoil again? Next question is obvious : can the speed/glide of the 701 be improved by using a sym airfoil rear and adjusting the main wing incidence? Dirk 701, many mods, 80% ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Martin To: Zenith List Sent: 29 June, 2005 2:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Re-setting wing incidence --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin Changing the angle of incidence of the horizontal stabilizer will change the trim forces needed to maintain level flight at any particular airspeed, it will not change the pitch attitude of the fuselage at that airspeed. To change the pitch attitude of the fuselage in level flight at a particular airspeed, you need to change the angle of incidence of the main wing. The wing will generate a certain amount of lift at a certain angle of attack and a certain airspeed. No amount of twiddling with the horizontal stabilizer is going to change the lift characteristics of the main wing. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:53 AM PST US From: szewc@direcway.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flaperon horn - edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: szewc@direcway.com Bill, You may want to look into the archives for the "no slot flaperon control". It was originally designed for the 801 (by Jim Frisby or Ben Haas I think). I have implemented this in my 701 and am very happy with it. Ken N701SZ Do not archive > > I'm installing the flaperon control horns on the 701, part 7A2-5.. > What > concerns me is the location of the 5/16" hole for the pushrod > connection. > The plans state 8mm radius around this hole, which leaves only > about 4mm or > aluminum around it. I guess this would be described as 1.5x edge > distance. This part is 0.090 aluminum, and this seems a little > dicey. Am I > missing something? > I'm also not crazy about the quick disconnect for the flaperons, > and > haven't quite figured out a good option using standard rod end.. > Advice appreciated, > > Bill Mileski > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:07 AM PST US From: Bill Mileski Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Mileski Ken, Yes, with your advice I just checked out the "no smile" flaperon control. Pretty cool. But I guess I don't feel like taking the diversion. I've probably got finish-it-fever. I wonder if there's any reason I can't increase the size of the horn to put more material around the hole, and/or up the material thickness to 0.125" from 0.090". I am a little surprised to not find any concerns about this in the archives. Again unless my plans are lacking a correction, but I found nothing in the updates on Z's page. Thanks. Bill ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:26 PM PST US From: Bill Mileski Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Mileski FYI regarding the flaperon control horn: Well, just spoke with Zenith factory. They say that a 5/16 hole (~8mm) drilled 8mm from the edge is okay on this part. Sigh.. maybe I'm just losing my mind.. Bill ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:08 PM PST US From: "jnbolding1" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" I think you will find that the whole stabilizer and elevator assembly are held in position with 4ea tabs of 063. Resist the urge to "beef up" a part, they generally have a stellar history on holding the 701 together. I cycled the flaps on a demo ride and the load on that part is quite low. LOW&SLOW John >I wonder if there's any reason I can't increase the size of the horn to put >more material around the hole, and/or up the material thickness to 0.125" >from 0.090". I am a little surprised to not find any concerns about this >in the archives. > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:01 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" Hi Bill, Just another perspective... when things dont "seem" right.. I bet if you suspended that control horn from the ceiling, and then "hung" onto the bolt straight down with all of your weight, (no twisting, now!) that horn would not fail. In fact, I would think that there are engineering formulas to calculate the allowable stress in this configuration before failure occurs. And since this horn is not allowed to move side to side, or twist, the only way to get that horn to fail is to get the flapperons to develop the many hundreds of lbs of force at that point. I would think that if you had 90 degrees of flaps at full VNE you would still not get enough close to the force to fail that horn. But I am sure these types of analysis have been done before we even started building. And then there is the question: Out of nearly a thousand 701s flying, how many of these horns have failed?? I havent heard of one. Why would yours?? But keep in mind, this advice is coming from someone who smashes planes by changing things that didnt 'seem right' ! ;) But VERY GLAD to see you back building after all these years.... that is WONDERFUL! Keep us posted on your progress Jon Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Mileski > > FYI regarding the flaperon control horn: Well, just spoke with Zenith > factory. They say that a 5/16 hole (~8mm) drilled 8mm from the edge is > okay on this part. Sigh.. maybe I'm just losing my mind.. > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:00 PM PST US From: "Bill Sonalysts" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Sonalysts" Okay guys, I guess I stepped into that needless worry mode.. In your voices I heard stuff I typically say myself.. I guess I must be getting close enough to flying to start realizing that I might be making the first flight in this thing. Anyway, all I've got left is to finish the inboard end of the flaperons, put on the rudder, connect some cables, and, well, a dozen little things that weren't "significant" before.. Thanks for the encouragement, Bill ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:00 PM PST US From: "Bill Sonalysts" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Flaperon horn - edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Sonalysts" Okay guys, I guess I stepped into that needless worry mode.. In your voices I heard stuff I typically say myself.. I guess I must be getting close enough to flying to start realizing that I might be making the first flight in this thing. Anyway, all I've got left is to finish the inboard end of the flaperons, put on the rudder, connect some cables, and, well, a dozen little things that weren't "significant" before.. Thanks for the encouragement, Bill ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Re-setting wing incidence From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin If you need to apply a constant elevator control force to maintain level flight, adjusting the incidence of the horizontal stab may help. (Just to avoid any possible confusion, the term "level flight" has nothing to do with the pitch attitude of the airplane. Level flight means flight at a constant altitude.) I had this problem with my 601. I could not trim out stick force for level flight so I lowered the leading edge of the stabilizer half and inch or so and now I can trim it out through most of the speed range. Ideally, at normal cruise speed, the airplane should maintain level flight with the elevator and its trim tab in neutral position with zero pitch force required on the stick. If your problem is that the nose pitch of the plane is too high or low during level flight, adjusting the stab won't help. This is true no matter what kind of airfoil is used for the stab. A cambered airfoil used on the 701 stabilizer to give more pitch authority at the lower airspeeds the plane was designed for. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" > > I should have said 701! > This uses an asym airfoil for the horizontal stab, thus my thought to perhaps > adjust the AoA to achieve hands off cruise, without having to interfere with > the main wing. > > > Next question is obvious : can the speed/glide of the 701 be improved by using > a sym airfoil rear and adjusting the main wing incidence? > Dirk > 701, many mods, 80% > The best way to improve the speed and glide ratio is to reduce the drag. Much of the drag on the 701 comes from the high lift airfoil of the main wing. Of course most of the short field capability of the 701 also comes from that airfoil design. There is a trade off between the two. If the fuselage is way out of alignment with the airflow during flight, adjusting the wing incidence may reduce the drag caused by this situation, but it won't change the drag generated by the wing itself. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:13 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: RE: Re-setting wing incidence --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Trevor, I am not flying yet, so I may have been talking out of turn. I just remember this subject coming up a few times over the last couple of years. If you check the archives, there are several posts on the subject. In a couple of minutes of looking, I found a good post by Jeff Small #26900. R/ Brandon