---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/07/05: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:27 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (N5SL) 2. 09:26 AM - Re: 601-HDS For Sale Amazing Opportunity (Steve Freeman) 3. 02:31 PM - Viton O rings needed. (Johann G.) 4. 03:14 PM - Re: Viton O rings needed. (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 5. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (William Dominguez) 6. 05:39 PM - Liability waiver (Mike Fortunato) 7. 06:47 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Larry) 8. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (ROBERT SCEPPA) 9. 07:53 PM - Jaibaru liability () 10. 09:10 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Brett) 11. 09:11 PM - Re: Jaibaru liability (Mark Stauffer) 12. 10:09 PM - Re: Jaibaru liability (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:10 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL William: After completing the tail section I didn't order any more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with .020". As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since then ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made the top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the gussets just like my drawings required. I also found that .016" was difficult to find and more expensive than .020" 6061-T6. Let me know if you have any more questions, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com William Dominguez wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Scott, Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or only those used for the skin. .016 is more difficult to find locally. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:24 AM PST US From: Steve Freeman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601-HDS For Sale Amazing Opportunity --> Zenith-List message posted by: Steve Freeman Hey Fred, Thanks for the info. If none of these offers I have pan out I will be in touch. That might be a good way for me to go. I have had 3 serious inquiries into my project, and it looks like it might be going to Australia. If I weren't moving I would finish, but that darn life thing keeps getting in the way! Steve Fred Kirkland wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred Kirkland" Steve, there are three guys at Deer Valley that I know of that are building for others. Also, a buddy of mine that is into Kit Foxes lives across the street and he knows a huge number of people in the valley that are into building. If you want to look into finding someone to complete the plane for you, I'd be happy to give you a hand. Fred Kirkland 602-296-5878 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:35 PM PST US From: "Johann G." Subject: Zenith-List: Viton O rings needed. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Hello list members. Does anyone on the list know where would be a good source for Viton o-rings for the Rotax 912 ul. I need the 16x5 O rings for the oil return tube for the valves. There is a small leak on all the o rings, after only 200 hrs engine run time. I do admit the engine has been torn down for crank shaft alignment and new piston rings. I know the rings are available from Rotax dealers, but almost $ 7.00 for a rubber o ring seems expensive to me. This size is not available here in Iceland. There are 8 needed. These are just a standard (Viton) metric size o rings. Hope you can help. Johann G. Iceland. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:02 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Viton O rings needed. From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" You can also use BUNA-N...I believe these are the black ones commonly sold with hydraulic fittings. My chemical database tells me these perfectly compatible with oil and fuel. Do you have a hydraulic supplier?...Auto shop that might keep a selection of these? Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Johann G. Subject: Zenith-List: Viton O rings needed. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." Hello list members. Does anyone on the list know where would be a good source for Viton o-rings for the Rotax 912 ul. I need the 16x5 O rings for the oil return tube for the valves. There is a small leak on all the o rings, after only 200 hrs engine run time. I do admit the engine has been torn down for crank shaft alignment and new piston rings. I know the rings are available from Rotax dealers, but almost $ 7.00 for a rubber o ring seems expensive to me. This size is not available here in Iceland. There are 8 needed. These are just a standard (Viton) metric size o rings. Hope you can help. Johann G. Iceland. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:20 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too except I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest changes. William Dominguez Miami, Florida 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs do not archive --- N5SL wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > > > William: > > After completing the tail section I didn't order any > more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with .020". > As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since then > ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins > to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings > called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made the > top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the > gussets just like my drawings required. I also > found that .016" was difficult to find and more > expensive than .020" 6061-T6. > > Let me know if you have any more questions, > > Scott Laughlin > www.cooknwithgas.com > > William Dominguez wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez > > > Scott, > > Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or > only those used for the skin. .016 is more difficult > to find locally. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:09 PM PST US From: Mike Fortunato Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney, but thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction (labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine. Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to make sure everything is correct! Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell the engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) ) Thanks, Mike Fortunato 601XL do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:20 PM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" I guess that means, no warranty of any kind. For what they charge, I'm afraid I would tell them to take a flying leap. There are other options. Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fortunato" Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > > This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney, but thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction (labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine. Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to make sure everything is correct! > > Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell the engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) ) > > Thanks, > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > do not archive > > > -- > > -- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:23 PM PST US From: ROBERT SCEPPA Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't > aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa > --- William Dominguez wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez > > > > Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too > except > I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest > changes. > > > William Dominguez > Miami, Florida > 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 > .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs > > do not archive > > --- N5SL wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > > > > > > William: > > > > After completing the tail section I didn't order > any > > more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with > .020". > > As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since > then > > ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins > > to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings > > called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made > the > > top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the > > gussets just like my drawings required. I also > > found that .016" was difficult to find and more > > expensive than .020" 6061-T6. > > > > Let me know if you have any more questions, > > > > Scott Laughlin > > www.cooknwithgas.com > > > > William Dominguez wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William > Dominguez > > > > > > Scott, > > > > Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or > > only those used for the skin. .016 is more > difficult > > to find locally. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:37 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike, I'm not an attorney, but as I understand it, you can never sign away your rights to sue for negligence on their part. I know that most of those companies have lots of "legal repellant" with their products, but if they screw up they are still liable. My attorney friends always wonder why they include stuff like that. Now Jaibaru is an Australian company, so possibly international law may come into play with them. Guess I'd discuss it with Jaibaru and if there are any questions remaining check with the EAA or an aviation attorney. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:07 PM PST US From: "Brett " Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " That's pretty standard. I don't know about them but I won't sell an engine unless they sign one. The problem is if anything else goes wrong and I don't have that signed I will get sued. Even if it had nothing to do with the engine. Thank the blood suckers for that. Get what ever you can from who ever you can. > > Thanks Brett Ray www.hog-air.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:24 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" Mike and others, I ordered my engine and FWF last month and signed the waiver. I believe the statement below is generally correct but what it does do in a court of law is show that at least you were told, and that you understood, of the potential problems involved. Also, I've read somewhere that I cannot sign away the right of my spouse/family to sue (Even though my spouse was required to sign the waiver also). Another example is I just got finished flying Young Eagles today. Sure, the parents sign waivers and EAA has insurance but that will not stop some lawyer from making the rest of my life miserable in the event something bad happens. Now having said all of this, I'm NOT a lawyer, do not look like one, nor do I play one on TV. Your mileage will vary. Would a real lawyer like to weigh in on the discussion? Mark Stauffer Odenton, MD 601XL almost on the gear, Jabiru 3300 on the way. do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of bobkat@btinet.net Subject: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike, I'm not an attorney, but as I understand it, you can never sign away your rights to sue for negligence on their part. I know that most of those companies have lots of "legal repellant" with their products, but if they screw up they are still liable. My attorney friends always wonder why they include stuff like that. Now Jaibaru is an Australian company, so possibly international law may come into play with them. Guess I'd discuss it with Jaibaru and if there are any questions remaining check with the EAA or an aviation attorney. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:30 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Mark, I do play an attorney on TV and as a proud member of the blood sucker community I agree with most all you said. Courts and State's laws differ greatly so there is no absolute answer other than with a lawyer. My signature on a wavier or any document, even a car rental agreement, just totally relieves the principal of obligation and liability because an attorney is assumed to understand what he's signing. A lay person or surviving family member can always argue they did not know or understand what they were agreeing to and frankly many of my cohort blood suckers have successfully won awards for such actions once they survived the motion for directed verdict phase of most all civil actions. Is there a sure answer to the question as to whether you are you signing away all possible rights to sue and those of your family ?? No, there is not. Such a document would merely be evidence and perhaps poor evidence at that. I suggest you retain a local blood sucker to review the document, research the pertinent laws and case decisions that apply and get him or her to advise you. You probably wouldn't ask you local A&P to perform brain surgery on you or a beloved family member, even if he is the smartest airplane mechanic around so I suggest you consult a local expert in the field. Best of luck, Bill P.S. -- FWIW I signed the dammed thing. The way I figured it, if the engine failed I would most probably be gone anyway and my life insurance would take care of my family needs so I went for it.