Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:06 AM - Re: Liability waiver (Larry)
2. 06:39 AM - Re: Liability waiver (Gig Giacona)
3. 06:55 AM - Re: Liability waiver (Pete Krotje)
4. 06:56 AM - Re: Liability waiver (Pete Krotje)
5. 07:05 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: O-Rings for Rotax 912 (John M. Goodings)
6. 08:03 AM - Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance (N5SL)
7. 08:38 AM - Life Insurance (Randy L. Thwing)
8. 09:02 AM - Re: Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance (Michel Therrien)
9. 09:28 AM - Shipping Planes (Robert Schoenberger)
10. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (Max Koenig)
11. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (William Dominguez)
12. 10:28 AM - Heavy left wing (Thilo Kind)
13. 10:28 AM - Re: Viton O rings needed. (Thilo Kind)
14. 10:28 AM - Re: Liability waiver (William Dominguez)
15. 10:40 AM - Re: Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance (Al Young)
16. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (Larry McFarland)
17. 11:08 AM - Re: Jaibaru liability (Mike Fortunato)
18. 01:18 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Dave Austin)
19. 02:11 PM - Re: Liability waiver, Jab vs. 912 (William Dominguez)
20. 02:42 PM - 701 struts (Flydog1966@aol.com)
21. 03:21 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Zodie Rocket)
22. 03:43 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Steve Hulland)
23. 04:31 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Mike Fortunato)
24. 04:34 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Mike Fortunato)
25. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (Monty Graves)
26. 05:32 PM - Re: 701 struts (Monty Graves)
27. 05:37 PM - Re: 701 struts (NYTerminat@aol.com)
28. 05:44 PM - Re: Liability waiver (NYTerminat@aol.com)
29. 05:48 PM - Re: Liability waiver, Jab vs. 912 (Dave Austin)
30. 06:04 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Paul Mulwitz)
31. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (Larry McFarland)
32. 07:19 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Joemotis@aol.com)
33. 07:50 PM - Buying a 601? (Jim Langley)
34. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (William Dominguez)
35. 08:40 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Mike Fortunato)
36. 08:46 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (William Dominguez)
37. 09:11 PM - LAST Re: Liability waiver (Zodie Rocket)
38. 09:17 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (Paul Mulwitz)
39. 09:31 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Paul Mulwitz)
40. 09:38 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (Craig Payne)
41. 10:20 PM - Arlington Fly-in Report (Paul Mulwitz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
I see this as being two separate issues. First being the liability issue
and the right to sue. I don't have a problem with a hold harmless
agreement. During my years of association with experimental aircraft I've
seen some construction which made me shudder. This sorry construction can
be all around a brand new high dollar engine. Let it crash and burn and
there are those who will automatically blame the engine, engine failure is
the first thing that comes to mind. There is generally something else that
lead to the failure, e,g, leaking fuel, electrical short, engine mount, etc.
Hard to prove one way or another, so the manufacturer has to protect
themselves as best they can.
However if I buy a brand new high dollar engine I would expect the supplier
to at least stand behind the engine for a limited amount of time. A hold
harmless agreement should only address your right to sue or not sue and
should not have any thing to do with the engine performance and quality. If
something with the engine fails within a few hours I think the supplier
should be responsible for fixing or replacing the problem. At the very
least they should help you out with it. In other words if there is a
problem with a defect in manufacturer construction or workmanship, you still
can't sue but they should have to make it right.
When we spend thousands on a brand new engine we should demand the
manufacturer/supplier stand behind there product and not accept "as is,
where is".
Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Fortunato" <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
>
> This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney, but
thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an
engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless
agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive
my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental
aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer
liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to
screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction
(labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine.
Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to
make sure everything is correct!
>
> Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell the
engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I
know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I
just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) )
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Fortunato
> 601XL
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --
>
>
--
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List:Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
I wouldn't say it nessicarily means no warranty at all. It just means you
can't sue them if you crash a burn and is pretty standard in the
experimental market. Zenith required both me and my wife to sign a waiver.
Gig G
I guess that means, no warranty of any kind. For what they charge, I'm
afraid I would tell them to take a flying leap. There are other options.
Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Fortunato" <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
>
> This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney, but
thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an
engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless
agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive
my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental
aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer
liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to
screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction
(labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine.
Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to
make sure everything is correct!
>
> Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell the
engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I
know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I
just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) )
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Fortunato
> 601XL
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --
Message 3
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| Subject: | Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Mike,
We do require that waiver. There is no way to insure our product and none
of us have deep enough pockets to withstand a lawsuit. Our waiver is not
too much different than the one Zenith has as part of their contract, or
Vans, Rnas, Titan, and most others.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Fortunato
Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney, but
thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an
engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless
agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive
my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental
aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer
liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to
screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction
(labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine.
Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to
make sure everything is correct!
Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell the
engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I
know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I
just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) )
Thanks,
Mike Fortunato
601XL
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Larry,
The waiver has nothing to do with warranty. Jabiru engines are warranted
for one year from delivery and that period can be extended if the buyer is
not ready to install.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
I guess that means, no warranty of any kind. For what they charge, I'm
afraid I would tell them to take a flying leap. There are other options.
Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Fortunato" <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
>
> This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney,
> but
thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an
engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless
agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive
my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental
aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer
liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to
screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction
(labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine.
Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to
make sure everything is correct!
>
> Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell
> the
engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I
know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I
just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) )
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Fortunato
> 601XL
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --
>
>
--
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: O-Rings for Rotax 912 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M. Goodings" <goodings@yorku.ca>
Personally, I would NOT substitute BUNA-N O-rings for Viton O-rings if
Rotax has specified Viton. Check the temperature tolerance. I believe
that Viton stands up to high temperature much better than BUNA-N (although
BUNA-N are more flexible). If Rotax has used Viton, use Viton!
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Waterloo.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Hi Bill:
I'm suspect you have better insurance than mine, but my life insurance does not
cover me in an aviation accident if it's a non-commercial flight. (I may have
the wording wrong, but it's pretty clear in it's intent). I will have to find
another life insurer when I finish my airplane and start flying.
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
JAPhillipsGA@aol.com wrote:
P.S. -- FWIW I signed the dammed thing. The way I figured it, if the engine
failed I would most probably be gone anyway and my life insurance would take
care of my family needs so I went for it.
Message 7
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2.02 SUBJ_LIFE_INSURANCE Subject includes "life insurance"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
Avemco has at least term life insurance (a new product for them) that has no
aviation exclusions. When renewing our club plane (see www.eaa163.com then
link to flying club ) insurance, they tried to sell me some. They sent me a
handful of brochures which I am still supposed to take to our chapter
meeting.
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas
I'm suspect you have better insurance than mine, but my life insurance does
not cover me in an aviation accident if it's a non-commercial flight. (I
may have the wording wrong, but it's pretty clear in it's intent). I will
have to find another life insurer when I finish my airplane and start
flying.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I bought a life insurance using the COPA program in
Canada. The nice thing about it is that it costs me
nothing... I mean that I reduced the coverage I had
with my employer's insurance and the credit I get
covers the cost of COPA's insurance program.
My employer's life insurance specifically excludes
coverage if I fly as a pilot in command.
I would think AOPA would provide a similar program....
Michel
--- N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
Several recent posts have concerned shipping a plane to Austrailia. There's an
article on pg. 77 of the Feb. '05 issue of Sport Aviation in which EAA Chapter
1384 pitched in to ship an RV4 to Sweden. Might be of some interest for technique.
Robert Schoenberger 701 do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Max Koenig <mkoenig@CHAINYOUNGER.com>
I received my plans two weeks ago. It specifies .025 for the bottom & side
fuselage. However, it continues to specify .016 for the rear top skin,
6B21-6, and the tail ribs, 6T1-2, stab skin, 6T2-4, and elevator ribs &
skin.
Has anyone used .020 or .025 in these specific parts? Or calculated the
impact on weight and balance?
Max Koenig
XL plans built; still setting up shop;
Bakersfield, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: ROBERT SCEPPA [mailto:rjscep@yahoo.com]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't
> aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa
> <rjscep@yahoo.com>
--- William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez
> <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too
> except
> I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest
> changes.
>
>
> William Dominguez
> Miami, Florida
> 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
> .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
>
> do not archive
>
> --- N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL
> > <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
> >
> > William:
> >
> > After completing the tail section I didn't order
> any
> > more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with
> .020".
> > As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since
> then
> > ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins
> > to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings
> > called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made
> the
> > top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the
> > gussets just like my drawings required. I also
> > found that .016" was difficult to find and more
> > expensive than .020" 6061-T6.
> >
> > Let me know if you have any more questions,
> >
> > Scott Laughlin
> > www.cooknwithgas.com
> >
> > William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William
> Dominguez
> >
> >
> > Scott,
> >
> > Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or
> > only those used for the skin. .016 is more
> difficult
> > to find locally.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > browse
> > Subscriptions page,
> > FAQ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
There is no change in the tail skin that I'm aware of.
What I meant in my earlier post was the change to the
bottom and side skin in the rear part of the fuselage.
William Dominguez
Miami, Florida
601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
--- ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA
> <rjscep@yahoo.com>
>
> > Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't
> > aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa
> > <rjscep@yahoo.com>
>
> --- William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William
> Dominguez
> > <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too
> > except
> > I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest
> > changes.
> >
> >
> > William Dominguez
> > Miami, Florida
> > 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
> > .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> > --- N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL
> > > <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > > William:
> > >
> > > After completing the tail section I didn't order
> > any
> > > more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with
> > .020".
> > > As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since
> > then
> > > ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom
> skins
> > > to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings
> > > called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made
> > the
> > > top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the
> > > gussets just like my drawings required. I also
> > > found that .016" was difficult to find and more
> > > expensive than .020" 6061-T6.
> > >
> > > Let me know if you have any more questions,
> > >
> > > Scott Laughlin
> > > www.cooknwithgas.com
> > >
> > > William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William
> > Dominguez
> > >
> > >
> > > Scott,
> > >
> > > Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020
> or
> > > only those used for the skin. .016 is more
> > difficult
> > > to find locally.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > browse
> > > Subscriptions page,
> > > FAQ,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
> >
> >
> >
> > browse
> > Subscriptions page,
> > FAQ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" <thilo.kind@gmx.net>
Hi folks,
just an observation, that might be useful for some of you. Last Sunday I went up
with my CH 601 HDS (no passenger). Normally, I have to trim for a little heavy
left wing, but this time I had the trim all the way to the stop and still had
to push the stick to the right to keep the plane level. L/E tanks were pretty
much at the same level. Took me a while to figure this out: a few weeks before
this flight I got a little crazy and cleaned the airplane thoroughly. During
this time I took out the 5 l of oil and the 1 l of coolant fluid as well as
some other bits and pieces, which I used to carry in the right wing baggage
compartment. Obviously, this was enough the "create" a heavy left wing (or rather
a light right wing).
Happy building / flying
Thilo Kind
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Viton O rings needed. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" <thilo.kind@gmx.net>
Hi Johann,
just saw your e-mail. Unfortunately, I left the office already. I can check
on Monday - pretty sure, that I can organise the rings for you. Will come
back on Monday.
Best regards
Thilo Kind
----- Original Message -----
From: "Johann G." <johann@gi.is>
Subject: Zenith-List: Viton O rings needed.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." <johann@gi.is>
>
> Hello list members.
>
> Does anyone on the list know where would be a good source for Viton
o-rings for the Rotax 912 ul.
> I need the 16x5 O rings for the oil return tube for the valves.
> There is a small leak on all the o rings, after only 200 hrs engine run
time. I do admit the engine has been torn down for crank shaft alignment and
new piston rings.
> I know the rings are available from Rotax dealers, but almost $ 7.00 for
a rubber o ring seems expensive to me. This size is not available here in
Iceland.
> There are 8 needed. These are just a standard (Viton) metric size o rings.
>
> Hope you can help.
>
> Johann G.
> Iceland.
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Don't worry about it Mike. If the Jabiru is the engine
you like, then go for it. The way I see it, it is more
important to spend the time and energy to do the best
risk management possible to avoid a catastrophic
incident than it is having the ability to sue if such
incident does happen. Good risk management mean not
only avoiding certain incident but also having
contingencies in case they happen. Being able to sue
is not part of this. It is safer this way.
William Dominguez
Miami, Florida
601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
--- Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato
> <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
>
> This is a little off topic, and probably more suited
> for an attorney, but thought I'd ask in case anyone
> else had the same concerns. I'm buying an engine
> from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a
> hold harmless agreement. This document basically
> says that no matter what happens, I waive my rights
> to sue the company. Now, I understand that in
> experimental aviation, where the builder plays a
> critical role, that manufacturer liability certainly
> should be limited to the extent I may do something
> to screw things up. But this waiver also covers any
> defect in construction (labor or materials) that
> Jabiru may have made in their completed engine. Upon
> receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on
> tearing it apart to make sure everything is correct!
>
> Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that
> Jabiru may not sell the engine unless I agree to
> sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I
> know you lurk on the list, so please don't get
> offended by this question. I just felt the need to
> check with the builder community on this one. :) )
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Fortunato
> 601XL
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
Scott- As a former life ins agent (23 yrs) maybe I can shed some light on
insurance and aviation. First, each state is different, but for the most
part, if the Company issues the policy, and you were honest on the
application, you should have no problem being covered. If you told the
agent you were a pilot, they would fill out an additional form, and the
underwriters would take your flying into consideration and if they issued
the policy, it might or might not be at a higher rate. You of course have
the choice of refusing or accepting the rate offered. If you accept the
offer, and the policy is issued, in most states, the policy cannot be
contested after a period of (usually) 2 years, no matter what you said on
the application. For example, if you decide to commit suicide, and take
out a policy and lie on the application, if you wait 2 years before you kill
yourself, they must pay your beneficiary. I believe that you might be
talking about accidental death insurance, which is a different animal.
Al Young
601XL- re-building
Do not archive
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Max,
I recommend you use the .020 or .025 for all the top skins as there's no
appreciable difference
for weight consideration. .016 is delicate at the very least and could
present handling problems
soon after you start flying. I used .020 and .025 respectively, on the
top skins going forward and
am pleased I did. Tail feathers were .016, but wish I'd known then to
use .020.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Max Koenig wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Max Koenig <mkoenig@CHAINYOUNGER.com>
>
>I received my plans two weeks ago. It specifies .025 for the bottom & side
>fuselage. However, it continues to specify .016 for the rear top skin,
>6B21-6, and the tail ribs, 6T1-2, stab skin, 6T2-4, and elevator ribs &
>skin.
>
>Has anyone used .020 or .025 in these specific parts? Or calculated the
>impact on weight and balance?
>
>Max Koenig
>XL plans built; still setting up shop;
>Bakersfield, CA
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ROBERT SCEPPA [mailto:rjscep@yahoo.com]
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020"
>
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
>
>
>
>>Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't
>>aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa
>><rjscep@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>
>--- William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez
>><bill_dom@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too
>>except
>>I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest
>>changes.
>>
>>
>>William Dominguez
>>Miami, Florida
>>601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
>>.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
>>
>>do not archive
>>
>>--- N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL
>>><nfivesl@yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>William:
>>>
>>>After completing the tail section I didn't order
>>>
>>>
>>any
>>
>>
>>>more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with
>>>
>>>
>>.020".
>>
>>
>>>As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since
>>>
>>>
>>then
>>
>>
>>>ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins
>>>to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings
>>>called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made
>>>
>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the
>>>gussets just like my drawings required. I also
>>>found that .016" was difficult to find and more
>>>expensive than .020" 6061-T6.
>>>
>>>Let me know if you have any more questions,
>>>
>>>Scott Laughlin
>>>www.cooknwithgas.com
>>>
>>>William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William
>>>
>>>
>>Dominguez
>>
>>
>>>Scott,
>>>
>>>Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or
>>>only those used for the skin. .016 is more
>>>
>>>
>>difficult
>>
>>
>>>to find locally.
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>browse
>>>Subscriptions page,
>>>FAQ,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>__________________________________
>>http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
>>
>>
>>
>>browse
>>Subscriptions page,
>>FAQ,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Jaibaru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
As usual, I very much appreciate all of the good responses I received on this issue.
And as we saw via Jabiru's (Pete's) response, it's either sign the waiver,
or no engine. So, with some reluctance, I guess I'll sign. It was noted by
someone (correctly) that no matter what you buy in this experimental plane biz,
include ZAC's airframe, you gotta sign your life away (figuratively only, I
hope).
To clarify on the separation of liability vs warranty issues, here's an excerpt
from the agreement: "...Seller & Manufacturer...no expressed or implied warranties
accompany such products". So, I guess I'll just be a trusting person that
there's a 1-year warranty. :)
It should be noted that even with a warranty, if some component within the engine
blows up, even if it's later proven to be faulty materials or workmanship by
Jabiru, then me or my heirs would have no legal recourse (under the letter of
the agreement). This would seem to be true even if the engine failure had nothing
to do with anything outside of the engine itself. Fair? Not in the least.
But as Pete pointed out -- he can't get insurance, so they try to pass along
the risk.
By the way, many suggested I check with an attorney on this. The only reason I
didn't, is because I work with attorneys regularly, and I'm 99.99% certain that
their advice would be not to sign. But if you want to participate in this realm,
it's good advice that I can't unfortunantly heed.
End of editorial. :) Thanks again everyone!
Mike Fortunato
do not archive
---------------------------------
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Absolutely, Mike.
I refused to buy the Jab after being presented with those terms.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver, Jab vs. 912 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Dave,
Can you share some of the waiver differences between
the Rotax and the Jabiru. What make you select Rotax.
William Dominguez
Miami, Florida
601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
--- Dave Austin <daveaustin2@sprint.ca> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
> <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
>
> Absolutely, Mike.
> I refused to buy the Jab after being presented with
> those terms.
> Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
Does anyone know if the lengths shown for the wing struts really work? I
made a mock-up of the front strut today and it looks too long. I do not know for
sure 'cause my wings are not on yet. I building to the 4th ed. plans dated
10-2001,and have an update for the strut lengths dated 10-02. Oddly enough the
3rd ed. plans show the struts shorter,Zenith would'nt make a mistake in there
next edition would they? ; ) Will somebody look at a newer set of plans
for me. I have a front strut length, hole-to-hole dimension of 2090, and the
rear strut hole-to hole is shown as 2030. I did check the angle of the lower
strut/gear fitting.(7F17?) 60 degrees from the cabin side right?
Thanks
Flydog
needing a bigger garage to fit my wings
do not archive
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
I had just spent 30 minutes with a smart ass reply to Dave's statement,
and then I erased it all. I will tease Dave in person and not on this
list!
Peter is a stand up fellow which I have respect for and I have heard
from others attesting to the same over the last few years. The piece of
paper is only to cover his butt that is hung out for the wolves to chew
on. I trust this man and gladly sign the piece of paper similar to the
one Zenith handed me to sign, in order to obtain an engine that has
proven to be a great fit to the Zodiac XL airframe. The paper is lawyer
speak that I wish we could all live without, but the only important
question in this matter is simply is Peter a respectable gentleman, is
his product a good one , does Peter have a reputation of standing behind
his product? The answer to all those questions is YES. Call me a fool
for still doing deals with a handshake but I guess I am Canadian!
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751
President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
<daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Absolutely, Mike.
I refused to buy the Jab after being presented with those terms.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Steve Hulland <marinegunner@gmail.com>
Mark,
Glad to hear there are still some around who are willing to work off a
handshake and have faith in others. I have been doing so throughout my 60
years on this earth and will continue to do so - no matter what the legal
wolves will do.
Still looking for the "right" engine for my 701.
Steve Hulland
Amado, Arizona
On 7/8/05, Zodie Rocket <zodierocket@hsfx.ca> wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>
> I had just spent 30 minutes with a smart ass reply to Dave's statement,
> and then I erased it all. I will tease Dave in person and not on this
> list!
> Peter is a stand up fellow which I have respect for and I have heard
> from others attesting to the same over the last few years. The piece of
> paper is only to cover his butt that is hung out for the wolves to chew
> on. I trust this man and gladly sign the piece of paper similar to the
> one Zenith handed me to sign, in order to obtain an engine that has
> proven to be a great fit to the Zodiac XL airframe. The paper is lawyer
> speak that I wish we could all live without, but the only important
> question in this matter is simply is Peter a respectable gentleman, is
> his product a good one , does Peter have a reputation of standing behind
> his product? The answer to all those questions is YES. Call me a fool
> for still doing deals with a handshake but I guess I am Canadian!
>
> Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
> Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751
> President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter
> www.ch601.org <http://www.ch601.org> / www.ch701.com<http://www.ch701.com>/
> www.Osprey2.com <http://www.Osprey2.com>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin"
> <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
>
> Absolutely, Mike.
> I refused to buy the Jab after being presented with those terms.
> Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> Peter is a stand up fellow which I have respect for
Mark, since i started this thread I guess I'll throw
in one more comment. I never wrote anything to
question Pete's character, nor even that of Jabiru. In
fact, Pete has been more than helpful in answering my
questions, even before I made the final decision to
purchase. I understand where they're coming from -- I
just thought it best to get others' opinions and to
see if they agreed to sign. Pete or no Pete, the
document is VERY restrictive, and it's implications
are way beyond simple warranty issues. As I wrote,
Jabiru USA is not alone in demanding these waivers,
and in fact, the only way they can get away with it is
because all the other manufacturers in this biz are
demanding the exact same thing. I suspect one day this
will all come to a head in some court somewhere. I
just don't want to be the one involved. :)
Mike Fortunato
do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> Glad to hear there are still some around who are
> willing to work off a handshake and have faith in
> others.
I'l try not to take that comment personally, coming
from the standpoint of seeing this as a valid concern.
God forbid anything should happen to a loved one of
yours due to a material or labor defect in something
you bought, and that handshake may not seem quite so
solid.
Mike Fortunato
do not archive
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
While I am not saying not to use .020 instead of .016. I think its
important to ACTUALLY KNOW what amount of weight is being added to the
plane by switching .
A 4 X 12 sheet of .016 weighs 11.06 lbs
A 4 X 12 sheet of .020 weighs 13.82 lbs
A 4 X 12 sheet of .025 weighs 17.28 lbs
switching 10 sheets of .016 with .020 in the 601 adds 27 lbs to the plane.
Monty
At 12:52 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
>Max,
>I recommend you use the .020 or .025 for all the top skins as there's no
>appreciable difference
>for weight consideration. .016 is delicate at the very least and could
>present handling problems
>soon after you start flying. I used .020 and .025 respectively, on the
>top skins going forward and
>am pleased I did. Tail feathers were .016, but wish I'd known then to
>use .020.
>
>Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>do not archive
>
>Max Koenig wrote:
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Max Koenig <mkoenig@CHAINYOUNGER.com>
> >
> >I received my plans two weeks ago. It specifies .025 for the bottom & side
> >fuselage. However, it continues to specify .016 for the rear top skin,
> >6B21-6, and the tail ribs, 6T1-2, stab skin, 6T2-4, and elevator ribs &
> >skin.
> >
> >Has anyone used .020 or .025 in these specific parts? Or calculated the
> >impact on weight and balance?
> >
> >Max Koenig
> >XL plans built; still setting up shop;
> >Bakersfield, CA
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: ROBERT SCEPPA [mailto:rjscep@yahoo.com]
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020"
> >
> >
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >>Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't
> >>aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa
> >><rjscep@yahoo.com>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >--- William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez
> >><bill_dom@yahoo.com>
> >>
> >>
> >>Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too
> >>except
> >>I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest
> >>changes.
> >>
> >>
> >>William Dominguez
> >>Miami, Florida
> >>601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
> >>.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
> >>
> >>do not archive
> >>
> >>--- N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL
> >>><nfivesl@yahoo.com>
> >>>
> >>>William:
> >>>
> >>>After completing the tail section I didn't order
> >>>
> >>>
> >>any
> >>
> >>
> >>>more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with
> >>>
> >>>
> >>.020".
> >>
> >>
> >>>As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since
> >>>
> >>>
> >>then
> >>
> >>
> >>>ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins
> >>>to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings
> >>>called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made
> >>>
> >>>
> >>the
> >>
> >>
> >>>top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the
> >>>gussets just like my drawings required. I also
> >>>found that .016" was difficult to find and more
> >>>expensive than .020" 6061-T6.
> >>>
> >>>Let me know if you have any more questions,
> >>>
> >>>Scott Laughlin
> >>>www.cooknwithgas.com
> >>>
> >>>William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Dominguez
> >>
> >>
> >>>Scott,
> >>>
> >>>Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or
> >>>only those used for the skin. .016 is more
> >>>
> >>>
> >>difficult
> >>
> >>
> >>>to find locally.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>---------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>browse
> >>>Subscriptions page,
> >>>FAQ,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>__________________________________
> >>http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>browse
> >>Subscriptions page,
> >>FAQ,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 26
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
My 11/2004 edition of that page shows same as yours..
Front 2090
Rear 2030
Monty
At 05:41 PM 7/8/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
>
>Does anyone know if the lengths shown for the wing struts really work? I
>made a mock-up of the front strut today and it looks too long. I do not
>know for
>sure 'cause my wings are not on yet. I building to the 4th ed. plans dated
>10-2001,and have an update for the strut lengths dated 10-02. Oddly enough
>the
>3rd ed. plans show the struts shorter,Zenith would'nt make a mistake in there
> next edition would they? ; ) Will somebody look at a newer set of plans
>for me. I have a front strut length, hole-to-hole dimension of 2090, and the
>rear strut hole-to hole is shown as 2030. I did check the angle of
>the lower
>strut/gear fitting.(7F17?) 60 degrees from the cabin side right?
> Thanks
> Flydog
> needing a bigger garage to fit my wings
> do not archive
>
>
Message 27
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
Flydog,
Just checked my 5th edition, 4th revision set of plans and they show the same
lenghts. Don't forget that the outboard edges of the wings will be higher
that the inboard per 7V-10.
I am building my hanger so that I can mount mine.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
Just as a note regarding Pete, I don't know any of the people involved but if
Pete or any of the other stand up guys should die or leave the company you
are still left with a legal document and that is what will be used to settle any
disagreements. Been there done that.
Bob Spudis
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver, Jab vs. 912 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Reply to William,
I bought my Rotax back in 1992 through Zenair in Canada and signed no waiver
at all. When I needed an engine for my next project 3 years ago I chose
the Jab 8 cyl.. I was then sent the papers we are discussing from the
Canadian reps. Two fine people, but the terms were too rich for me. So I
bought a LOM 337C and signed a document that excused the dealer and LOM for
any accident thru incorrect use of the engine, but did not totally excuse
them, nor did it tie the warranty the way the Jab. papers clearly expressed.
As long as the installation meets their specs, I'm OK.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire MK VIII
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>I couldn't resist making one more comment on the issue of product liability.
I am not a lawyer, but I have experience in the world of business. I
expect any manufacturer to back up their product with support in case
of product problems. This includes replacing parts that fail in
infancy and similar support activity. I always wanted my customers
to be satisfied and I think this is the case with most honest
businessmen. I don't think it is pieces of paper or "Warranties"
that motivate producers to stand behind their products - it is a
desire to conduct their businesses in a competitive marketplace and
satisfy their customers. I would recommend to anyone who doubts this
attitude to consider that any businessman who is really criminally
oriented could easily make a lot more money selling illegal drugs.
In aviation, the temptation for people to sue manufacturers based on
"Product Liability" has made junky airplanes like Cessna 172's cost
over $150,000 - before adding the expensive parts like avionics. (I
actually think Cessnas are the cream of the crop for low priced
standard aircraft, so please don't think I am trying to shoot down
Cessna.) The notion that amateur builders take responsibility for
their own actions instead of looking for someone else to blame for
anything that goes wrong is central to the lower prices involved. I
consider the waivers of liability to be one of the ways our suppliers
try to limit the number of "Nuisance" lawsuits that could ruin the
whole playing ground -- just as it has for normal general aviation.
My final thought -- If you think a Jabiru engine is the best choice
for your airplane then go ahead and buy it. Take responsibility for
the decision. Ultimately, it is your rear-end that will depend on
the decisions you make. If you are the kind of person who must have
a way to blame others for your own decisions, then perhaps building
an airplane is not the right activity for you. I think people with
that approach to life should get a good government "Civil Service"
job and never take any chances in any part of their lives.
I hope my comments help you rise above the negative thoughts of suing
an engine manufacturer for any product issue. I will feel I have
accomplished a great thing if my thoughts set you free from this kind
of thinking.
Good Luck!
Paul
Zodiac XL, barely started - waiting for wing kit.
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Monty,
You'd be exactly right if you used the entire sheet, but after lightening
holes
and part dimensions, etc, it comes to less than half that and the trouble
you save
is worth twice that.
Larry
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Monty Graves" <mgraves@usmo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020"
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
>
> While I am not saying not to use .020 instead of .016. I think its
> important to ACTUALLY KNOW what amount of weight is being added to the
> plane by switching .
>
> A 4 X 12 sheet of .016 weighs 11.06 lbs
> A 4 X 12 sheet of .020 weighs 13.82 lbs
> A 4 X 12 sheet of .025 weighs 17.28 lbs
>
> switching 10 sheets of .016 with .020 in the 601 adds 27 lbs to the
> plane.
>
> Monty
>
>
> At 12:52 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
>>
>>Max,
>>I recommend you use the .020 or .025 for all the top skins as there's no
>>appreciable difference
>>for weight consideration. .016 is delicate at the very least and could
>>present handling problems
>>soon after you start flying. I used .020 and .025 respectively, on the
>>top skins going forward and
>>am pleased I did. Tail feathers were .016, but wish I'd known then to
>>use .020.
>>
>>Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>>do not archive
>>
>>Max Koenig wrote:
>>
>> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Max Koenig <mkoenig@CHAINYOUNGER.com>
>> >
>> >I received my plans two weeks ago. It specifies .025 for the bottom &
>> >side
>> >fuselage. However, it continues to specify .016 for the rear top skin,
>> >6B21-6, and the tail ribs, 6T1-2, stab skin, 6T2-4, and elevator ribs &
>> >skin.
>> >
>> >Has anyone used .020 or .025 in these specific parts? Or calculated the
>> >impact on weight and balance?
>> >
>> >Max Koenig
>> >XL plans built; still setting up shop;
>> >Bakersfield, CA
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: ROBERT SCEPPA [mailto:rjscep@yahoo.com]
>> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020"
>> >
>> >
>> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't
>> >>aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa
>> >><rjscep@yahoo.com>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >--- William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez
>> >><bill_dom@yahoo.com>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too
>> >>except
>> >>I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest
>> >>changes.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>William Dominguez
>> >>Miami, Florida
>> >>601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
>> >>.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
>> >>
>> >>do not archive
>> >>
>> >>--- N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL
>> >>><nfivesl@yahoo.com>
>> >>>
>> >>>William:
>> >>>
>> >>>After completing the tail section I didn't order
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>any
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>.020".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>then
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins
>> >>>to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings
>> >>>called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>the
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the
>> >>>gussets just like my drawings required. I also
>> >>>found that .016" was difficult to find and more
>> >>>expensive than .020" 6061-T6.
>> >>>
>> >>>Let me know if you have any more questions,
>> >>>
>> >>>Scott Laughlin
>> >>>www.cooknwithgas.com
>> >>>
>> >>>William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>Dominguez
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>Scott,
>> >>>
>> >>>Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or
>> >>>only those used for the skin. .016 is more
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>difficult
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>to find locally.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>---------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>browse
>> >>>Subscriptions page,
>> >>>FAQ,
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>__________________________________
>> >>http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>browse
>> >>Subscriptions page,
>> >>FAQ,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com
In a message dated 7/8/2005 6:05:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net writes:
I think people with
that approach to life should get a good government "Civil Service"
job and never take any chances in any part of their lives
My Civil service job pays well and is challenging (I am a Union special
skills electrician doing energy management) It also has a good retirement that
in
9 years when I retire will pay 71 % of my salary.
I also fly, ride motorcycles, fish on the ocean ,water ski, shoot and many
oter actvities that sometimes make my wife cringe.
My point is dont bag on the Civil service: we are not all the jerk at the
DMV...
Joe Motis
Do not archive
Message 33
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a
good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL?
Jim!
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
"switching 10 sheets of .016 with .020 in the 601
adds 27 lbs to the plane."
Well not exactly, based on the material layout there
is only 5 4x12 sheets of .016 and 1 4x8. Using .025
for bottom and side skin reduce it to only 4 sheets of
4x12. Then substract some leftover and it you will end
up with maybe 12 lbs.
William Dominguez
Miami, Florida
601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
=== message truncated ===
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> If you are the kind of person who must have
> a way to blame others for your own decisions, then
> perhaps building an airplane is not the right
> activity for you. I think people with
> that approach to life should get a good government
> "Civil Service" job and never take any chances in
any > part of their lives.
Well, I'm not sure how many different classes of
people you offended with that single paragraph,
but...um...ok. So, if I buy an engine that has a
latent defect (one that could not be discovered via
normal means), and that causes my family to crash &
die, then there should be no manufacturer liability
for that? You can't possibly believe that. I never
said I was looking for reasons to sue anyone. Good
grief.
Mike Fortunato
Alta Loma, CA
Not a civil servant
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Buying a 601? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Try http://www.sportsplanes.com/ they sell the factory
build 601 XL with either Rotax 912 or Continental
O-200. Just be ready to open your wallet very wide
since prices start arount 70k for the eLSA
William Dominguez
Miami, Florida
601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
--- Jim Langley <tempaddress@worldhost.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley"
> <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
>
>
> I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you
> guys recommend a
> good place to look for a completed or almost
> completed XL?
>
> Jim!
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Every once in awhile members of this list needs to expunge a little
steam. I'm no different and for a short period of time I enjoy it. I
know most of you now and I also know that most of you have nothing short
of good intentions. Having said that it is easy to take any line in a
letter the wrong way no matter how good the intention was. Lets drop
this string of E-Mails now as I'm sure Mike has all the info needed for
his decision, the world is what it is and we sometimes have to do the
Lemming thinngggy or make different decisions. ANY responses that one
feels a need to add please send it to me OFFLINE at
cdngoose@osprey2.com. Or if a reply to any previous message in this link
is warranted please address to the individual that sent it. Thanks
Folks.
Did anyone make it to Arlington? Care to share what you saw?
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751
President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
do not archive
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Buying a 601? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a
>good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL?
>
>
Try Sportsplanes.com http://www.sportsplanes.com/
I spoke to a guy at the Arlington fly-in yesterday who is expecting a
601 XL in August.
Paul
do not archive
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>Well, I'm not sure how many different classes of
>people you offended with that single paragraph,
>but...um...ok. So, if I buy an engine that has a
>latent defect (one that could not be discovered via
>normal means), and that causes my family to crash &
>die, then there should be no manufacturer liability
>for that? You can't possibly believe that. I never
>said I was looking for reasons to sue anyone. Good
>grief.
>
>Mike Fortunato
Sorry, Mike. I didn't mean to offend anybody. I also didn't mean to
say there is anything wrong with being a civil servant (although I do
think our nation would be better off with a few less of them living
on the backs of the taxpayers). My point was only to say that the
right to sue for damages should not be your decision point when
choosing something as important as an engine for your custom built airplane.
I must wonder, though, why you think an engine failure should lead to
loss of life. I have met many people who have survived forced
landings due to engine failures over the years. My favorite
instructor had performed 14 of them by the time I knew him (he flew
ancient planes to museums for display and often had the engines blow
up on him on the way).
I guess if you feel you must sue the engine manufacturer after a
glitch kills your whole family then you would be happier buying a new
Piper or something where that is the normal way dealing with
responsibility for accidents. If you succeed in changing the amateur
airplane building environment to preserve the "Right" to make the
lawyers rich through product liability lawsuits then the result will
be the end of affordable airplanes for the rest of us.
>I still wish you good luck.
>
>Paul
do not archive
>========================
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Buying a 601? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Of course if you are looking at pre-built aircraft you should also look
at the many composite LSA coming out. By going for a pre-built plane you
eliminate one of the key advantages of the 601XL - ease of home
construction.
-- Craig
Jim Langley wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
>
>
> I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a
> good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL?
>
> Jim!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Arlington Fly-in Report |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
I just got back from Arlington.
The weather was awful on Wednesday and Friday, but nice weather
prevailed Thursday.
Two of the Heintz boys were there, Nicholas and Michael, and the
factory demonstrator 601XL and two local 701's were also there.
I was fortunate to get a demo ride in the XL on Thursday with
Nicholas as the demonstration pilot. I was a little bit surprised at
how docile the plane performed -- I was expecting a really twitchy
plane and I thought it was actually very well behaved.
Nicholas Heintz is the ZAC Production Manager (I hope I got that
right) and one of 4 sons of the Zenith line designer Chris Heintz. I
found him to be a delightful person and greatly enjoyed meeting
him. Michael Heintz is starting a West Coast support arm for ZAC in
Santa Rosa, CA. I also found him to be a very nice guy and was glad I met him.
One small piece of information I got from Nick about ZAC. I asked
him how many people work there, and the answer was 15.
Bob Archibald was there from Dragonfly Aviation in Santa Rosa, CA to
talk about his efforts to provide training in Zenith planes. He told
me he expects to receive an S-LSA version of the XL with a
Continental engine in August. He will be providing instruction in
that plane as soon as it arrives. His web site is
dragonflyaviation.com, and his business phone number is (707) 575-8750.
I guess that is the most important Zenith related stuff I can report
from the fly-in.
Paul
XL barely started - waiting for wing kit.
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
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