---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/08/05: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:06 AM - Re: Liability waiver (Larry) 2. 06:39 AM - Re: Liability waiver (Gig Giacona) 3. 06:55 AM - Re: Liability waiver (Pete Krotje) 4. 06:56 AM - Re: Liability waiver (Pete Krotje) 5. 07:05 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: O-Rings for Rotax 912 (John M. Goodings) 6. 08:03 AM - Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance (N5SL) 7. 08:38 AM - Life Insurance (Randy L. Thwing) 8. 09:02 AM - Re: Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance (Michel Therrien) 9. 09:28 AM - Shipping Planes (Robert Schoenberger) 10. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (Max Koenig) 11. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (William Dominguez) 12. 10:28 AM - Heavy left wing (Thilo Kind) 13. 10:28 AM - Re: Viton O rings needed. (Thilo Kind) 14. 10:28 AM - Re: Liability waiver (William Dominguez) 15. 10:40 AM - Re: Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance (Al Young) 16. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (Larry McFarland) 17. 11:08 AM - Re: Jaibaru liability (Mike Fortunato) 18. 01:18 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Dave Austin) 19. 02:11 PM - Re: Liability waiver, Jab vs. 912 (William Dominguez) 20. 02:42 PM - 701 struts (Flydog1966@aol.com) 21. 03:21 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Zodie Rocket) 22. 03:43 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Steve Hulland) 23. 04:31 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Mike Fortunato) 24. 04:34 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Mike Fortunato) 25. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (Monty Graves) 26. 05:32 PM - Re: 701 struts (Monty Graves) 27. 05:37 PM - Re: 701 struts (NYTerminat@aol.com) 28. 05:44 PM - Re: Liability waiver (NYTerminat@aol.com) 29. 05:48 PM - Re: Liability waiver, Jab vs. 912 (Dave Austin) 30. 06:04 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Paul Mulwitz) 31. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (Larry McFarland) 32. 07:19 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Joemotis@aol.com) 33. 07:50 PM - Buying a 601? (Jim Langley) 34. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" (William Dominguez) 35. 08:40 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Mike Fortunato) 36. 08:46 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (William Dominguez) 37. 09:11 PM - LAST Re: Liability waiver (Zodie Rocket) 38. 09:17 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (Paul Mulwitz) 39. 09:31 PM - Re: Liability waiver (Paul Mulwitz) 40. 09:38 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (Craig Payne) 41. 10:20 PM - Arlington Fly-in Report (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:25 AM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" I see this as being two separate issues. First being the liability issue and the right to sue. I don't have a problem with a hold harmless agreement. During my years of association with experimental aircraft I've seen some construction which made me shudder. This sorry construction can be all around a brand new high dollar engine. Let it crash and burn and there are those who will automatically blame the engine, engine failure is the first thing that comes to mind. There is generally something else that lead to the failure, e,g, leaking fuel, electrical short, engine mount, etc. Hard to prove one way or another, so the manufacturer has to protect themselves as best they can. However if I buy a brand new high dollar engine I would expect the supplier to at least stand behind the engine for a limited amount of time. A hold harmless agreement should only address your right to sue or not sue and should not have any thing to do with the engine performance and quality. If something with the engine fails within a few hours I think the supplier should be responsible for fixing or replacing the problem. At the very least they should help you out with it. In other words if there is a problem with a defect in manufacturer construction or workmanship, you still can't sue but they should have to make it right. When we spend thousands on a brand new engine we should demand the manufacturer/supplier stand behind there product and not accept "as is, where is". Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fortunato" Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > > This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney, but thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction (labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine. Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to make sure everything is correct! > > Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell the engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) ) > > Thanks, > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > do not archive > > > -- > > -- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:26 AM PST US From: "Gig Giacona" Subject: Re: Zenith-List:Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" I wouldn't say it nessicarily means no warranty at all. It just means you can't sue them if you crash a burn and is pretty standard in the experimental market. Zenith required both me and my wife to sign a waiver. Gig G I guess that means, no warranty of any kind. For what they charge, I'm afraid I would tell them to take a flying leap. There are other options. Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fortunato" Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > > This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney, but thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction (labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine. Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to make sure everything is correct! > > Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell the engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) ) > > Thanks, > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > do not archive > > > -- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:22 AM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" Mike, We do require that waiver. There is no way to insure our product and none of us have deep enough pockets to withstand a lawsuit. Our waiver is not too much different than the one Zenith has as part of their contract, or Vans, Rnas, Titan, and most others. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Fortunato Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney, but thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction (labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine. Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to make sure everything is correct! Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell the engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) ) Thanks, Mike Fortunato 601XL do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:56 AM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" Larry, The waiver has nothing to do with warranty. Jabiru engines are warranted for one year from delivery and that period can be extended if the buyer is not ready to install. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" I guess that means, no warranty of any kind. For what they charge, I'm afraid I would tell them to take a flying leap. There are other options. Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fortunato" Subject: Zenith-List: Liability waiver > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > > This is a little off topic, and probably more suited for an attorney, > but thought I'd ask in case anyone else had the same concerns. I'm buying an engine from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a hold harmless agreement. This document basically says that no matter what happens, I waive my rights to sue the company. Now, I understand that in experimental aviation, where the builder plays a critical role, that manufacturer liability certainly should be limited to the extent I may do something to screw things up. But this waiver also covers any defect in construction (labor or materials) that Jabiru may have made in their completed engine. Upon receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on tearing it apart to make sure everything is correct! > > Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that Jabiru may not sell > the engine unless I agree to sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I know you lurk on the list, so please don't get offended by this question. I just felt the need to check with the builder community on this one. :) ) > > Thanks, > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > do not archive > > > -- > > -- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:21 AM PST US From: "John M. Goodings" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: O-Rings for Rotax 912 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M. Goodings" Personally, I would NOT substitute BUNA-N O-rings for Viton O-rings if Rotax has specified Viton. Check the temperature tolerance. I believe that Viton stands up to high temperature much better than BUNA-N (although BUNA-N are more flexible). If Rotax has used Viton, use Viton! John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Waterloo. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:33 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Hi Bill: I'm suspect you have better insurance than mine, but my life insurance does not cover me in an aviation accident if it's a non-commercial flight. (I may have the wording wrong, but it's pretty clear in it's intent). I will have to find another life insurer when I finish my airplane and start flying. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com JAPhillipsGA@aol.com wrote: P.S. -- FWIW I signed the dammed thing. The way I figured it, if the engine failed I would most probably be gone anyway and my life insurance would take care of my family needs so I went for it. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:37 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: Life Insurance 2.02 SUBJ_LIFE_INSURANCE Subject includes "life insurance" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" Avemco has at least term life insurance (a new product for them) that has no aviation exclusions. When renewing our club plane (see www.eaa163.com then link to flying club ) insurance, they tried to sell me some. They sent me a handful of brochures which I am still supposed to take to our chapter meeting. Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas I'm suspect you have better insurance than mine, but my life insurance does not cover me in an aviation accident if it's a non-commercial flight. (I may have the wording wrong, but it's pretty clear in it's intent). I will have to find another life insurer when I finish my airplane and start flying. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:46 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I bought a life insurance using the COPA program in Canada. The nice thing about it is that it costs me nothing... I mean that I reduced the coverage I had with my employer's insurance and the credit I get covers the cost of COPA's insurance program. My employer's life insurance specifically excludes coverage if I fly as a pilot in command. I would think AOPA would provide a similar program.... Michel --- N5SL wrote: > ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:11 AM PST US From: "Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Zenith-List: Shipping Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" Several recent posts have concerned shipping a plane to Austrailia. There's an article on pg. 77 of the Feb. '05 issue of Sport Aviation in which EAA Chapter 1384 pitched in to ship an RV4 to Sweden. Might be of some interest for technique. Robert Schoenberger 701 do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:53 AM PST US From: Max Koenig Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: Max Koenig I received my plans two weeks ago. It specifies .025 for the bottom & side fuselage. However, it continues to specify .016 for the rear top skin, 6B21-6, and the tail ribs, 6T1-2, stab skin, 6T2-4, and elevator ribs & skin. Has anyone used .020 or .025 in these specific parts? Or calculated the impact on weight and balance? Max Koenig XL plans built; still setting up shop; Bakersfield, CA -----Original Message----- From: ROBERT SCEPPA [mailto:rjscep@yahoo.com] Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't > aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa > --- William Dominguez wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez > > > > Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too > except > I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest > changes. > > > William Dominguez > Miami, Florida > 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 > .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs > > do not archive > > --- N5SL wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > > > > > > William: > > > > After completing the tail section I didn't order > any > > more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with > .020". > > As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since > then > > ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins > > to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings > > called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made > the > > top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the > > gussets just like my drawings required. I also > > found that .016" was difficult to find and more > > expensive than .020" 6061-T6. > > > > Let me know if you have any more questions, > > > > Scott Laughlin > > www.cooknwithgas.com > > > > William Dominguez wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William > Dominguez > > > > > > Scott, > > > > Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or > > only those used for the skin. .016 is more > difficult > > to find locally. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:44 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez There is no change in the tail skin that I'm aware of. What I meant in my earlier post was the change to the bottom and side skin in the rear part of the fuselage. William Dominguez Miami, Florida 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs --- ROBERT SCEPPA wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > > > > Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't > > aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa > > > > --- William Dominguez wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William > Dominguez > > > > > > > > Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too > > except > > I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest > > changes. > > > > > > William Dominguez > > Miami, Florida > > 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 > > .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs > > > > do not archive > > > > --- N5SL wrote: > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > > > > > > > > > William: > > > > > > After completing the tail section I didn't order > > any > > > more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with > > .020". > > > As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since > > then > > > ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom > skins > > > to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings > > > called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made > > the > > > top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the > > > gussets just like my drawings required. I also > > > found that .016" was difficult to find and more > > > expensive than .020" 6061-T6. > > > > > > Let me know if you have any more questions, > > > > > > Scott Laughlin > > > www.cooknwithgas.com > > > > > > William Dominguez wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: William > > Dominguez > > > > > > > > > Scott, > > > > > > Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 > or > > > only those used for the skin. .016 is more > > difficult > > > to find locally. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > > Subscriptions page, > > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:59 AM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Zenith-List: Heavy left wing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi folks, just an observation, that might be useful for some of you. Last Sunday I went up with my CH 601 HDS (no passenger). Normally, I have to trim for a little heavy left wing, but this time I had the trim all the way to the stop and still had to push the stick to the right to keep the plane level. L/E tanks were pretty much at the same level. Took me a while to figure this out: a few weeks before this flight I got a little crazy and cleaned the airplane thoroughly. During this time I took out the 5 l of oil and the 1 l of coolant fluid as well as some other bits and pieces, which I used to carry in the right wing baggage compartment. Obviously, this was enough the "create" a heavy left wing (or rather a light right wing). Happy building / flying Thilo Kind ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:59 AM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Viton O rings needed. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Johann, just saw your e-mail. Unfortunately, I left the office already. I can check on Monday - pretty sure, that I can organise the rings for you. Will come back on Monday. Best regards Thilo Kind ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johann G." Subject: Zenith-List: Viton O rings needed. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann G." > > Hello list members. > > Does anyone on the list know where would be a good source for Viton o-rings for the Rotax 912 ul. > I need the 16x5 O rings for the oil return tube for the valves. > There is a small leak on all the o rings, after only 200 hrs engine run time. I do admit the engine has been torn down for crank shaft alignment and new piston rings. > I know the rings are available from Rotax dealers, but almost $ 7.00 for a rubber o ring seems expensive to me. This size is not available here in Iceland. > There are 8 needed. These are just a standard (Viton) metric size o rings. > > Hope you can help. > > Johann G. > Iceland. > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:59 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Don't worry about it Mike. If the Jabiru is the engine you like, then go for it. The way I see it, it is more important to spend the time and energy to do the best risk management possible to avoid a catastrophic incident than it is having the ability to sue if such incident does happen. Good risk management mean not only avoiding certain incident but also having contingencies in case they happen. Being able to sue is not part of this. It is safer this way. William Dominguez Miami, Florida 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs --- Mike Fortunato wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > > > This is a little off topic, and probably more suited > for an attorney, but thought I'd ask in case anyone > else had the same concerns. I'm buying an engine > from Jabiru, and have just been presented with a > hold harmless agreement. This document basically > says that no matter what happens, I waive my rights > to sue the company. Now, I understand that in > experimental aviation, where the builder plays a > critical role, that manufacturer liability certainly > should be limited to the extent I may do something > to screw things up. But this waiver also covers any > defect in construction (labor or materials) that > Jabiru may have made in their completed engine. Upon > receipt of the motor, I certainly don't intend on > tearing it apart to make sure everything is correct! > > Anyone else run into this concern? It may be that > Jabiru may not sell the engine unless I agree to > sign....haven't checked with them yet. (Pete -- I > know you lurk on the list, so please don't get > offended by this question. I just felt the need to > check with the builder community on this one. :) ) > > Thanks, > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > do not archive > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:50 AM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability (changed topic) Life Insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" Scott- As a former life ins agent (23 yrs) maybe I can shed some light on insurance and aviation. First, each state is different, but for the most part, if the Company issues the policy, and you were honest on the application, you should have no problem being covered. If you told the agent you were a pilot, they would fill out an additional form, and the underwriters would take your flying into consideration and if they issued the policy, it might or might not be at a higher rate. You of course have the choice of refusing or accepting the rate offered. If you accept the offer, and the policy is issued, in most states, the policy cannot be contested after a period of (usually) 2 years, no matter what you said on the application. For example, if you decide to commit suicide, and take out a policy and lie on the application, if you wait 2 years before you kill yourself, they must pay your beneficiary. I believe that you might be talking about accidental death insurance, which is a different animal. Al Young 601XL- re-building Do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:29 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Max, I recommend you use the .020 or .025 for all the top skins as there's no appreciable difference for weight consideration. .016 is delicate at the very least and could present handling problems soon after you start flying. I used .020 and .025 respectively, on the top skins going forward and am pleased I did. Tail feathers were .016, but wish I'd known then to use .020. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Max Koenig wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Max Koenig > >I received my plans two weeks ago. It specifies .025 for the bottom & side >fuselage. However, it continues to specify .016 for the rear top skin, >6B21-6, and the tail ribs, 6T1-2, stab skin, 6T2-4, and elevator ribs & >skin. > >Has anyone used .020 or .025 in these specific parts? Or calculated the >impact on weight and balance? > >Max Koenig >XL plans built; still setting up shop; >Bakersfield, CA > > >-----Original Message----- >From: ROBERT SCEPPA [mailto:rjscep@yahoo.com] >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > > > >>Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't >>aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa >> >> >> > >--- William Dominguez wrote: > > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez >> >> >> >>Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too >>except >>I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest >>changes. >> >> >>William Dominguez >>Miami, Florida >>601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 >>.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs >> >>do not archive >> >>--- N5SL wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL >>> >>> >>>William: >>> >>>After completing the tail section I didn't order >>> >>> >>any >> >> >>>more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with >>> >>> >>.020". >> >> >>>As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since >>> >>> >>then >> >> >>>ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins >>>to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings >>>called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made >>> >>> >>the >> >> >>>top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the >>>gussets just like my drawings required. I also >>>found that .016" was difficult to find and more >>>expensive than .020" 6061-T6. >>> >>>Let me know if you have any more questions, >>> >>>Scott Laughlin >>>www.cooknwithgas.com >>> >>>William Dominguez wrote: >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William >>> >>> >>Dominguez >> >> >>>Scott, >>> >>>Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or >>>only those used for the skin. .016 is more >>> >>> >>difficult >> >> >>>to find locally. >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>>browse >>>Subscriptions page, >>>FAQ, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>__________________________________ >>http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail >> >> >> >>browse >>Subscriptions page, >>FAQ, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:24 AM PST US From: Mike Fortunato Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato As usual, I very much appreciate all of the good responses I received on this issue. And as we saw via Jabiru's (Pete's) response, it's either sign the waiver, or no engine. So, with some reluctance, I guess I'll sign. It was noted by someone (correctly) that no matter what you buy in this experimental plane biz, include ZAC's airframe, you gotta sign your life away (figuratively only, I hope). To clarify on the separation of liability vs warranty issues, here's an excerpt from the agreement: "...Seller & Manufacturer...no expressed or implied warranties accompany such products". So, I guess I'll just be a trusting person that there's a 1-year warranty. :) It should be noted that even with a warranty, if some component within the engine blows up, even if it's later proven to be faulty materials or workmanship by Jabiru, then me or my heirs would have no legal recourse (under the letter of the agreement). This would seem to be true even if the engine failure had nothing to do with anything outside of the engine itself. Fair? Not in the least. But as Pete pointed out -- he can't get insurance, so they try to pass along the risk. By the way, many suggested I check with an attorney on this. The only reason I didn't, is because I work with attorneys regularly, and I'm 99.99% certain that their advice would be not to sign. But if you want to participate in this realm, it's good advice that I can't unfortunantly heed. End of editorial. :) Thanks again everyone! Mike Fortunato do not archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:37 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Absolutely, Mike. I refused to buy the Jab after being presented with those terms. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:06 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver, Jab vs. 912 --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Dave, Can you share some of the waiver differences between the Rotax and the Jabiru. What make you select Rotax. William Dominguez Miami, Florida 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs --- Dave Austin wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" > > > Absolutely, Mike. > I refused to buy the Jab after being presented with > those terms. > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:35 PM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 701 struts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com Does anyone know if the lengths shown for the wing struts really work? I made a mock-up of the front strut today and it looks too long. I do not know for sure 'cause my wings are not on yet. I building to the 4th ed. plans dated 10-2001,and have an update for the strut lengths dated 10-02. Oddly enough the 3rd ed. plans show the struts shorter,Zenith would'nt make a mistake in there next edition would they? ; ) Will somebody look at a newer set of plans for me. I have a front strut length, hole-to-hole dimension of 2090, and the rear strut hole-to hole is shown as 2030. I did check the angle of the lower strut/gear fitting.(7F17?) 60 degrees from the cabin side right? Thanks Flydog needing a bigger garage to fit my wings do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:17 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" I had just spent 30 minutes with a smart ass reply to Dave's statement, and then I erased it all. I will tease Dave in person and not on this list! Peter is a stand up fellow which I have respect for and I have heard from others attesting to the same over the last few years. The piece of paper is only to cover his butt that is hung out for the wolves to chew on. I trust this man and gladly sign the piece of paper similar to the one Zenith handed me to sign, in order to obtain an engine that has proven to be a great fit to the Zodiac XL airframe. The paper is lawyer speak that I wish we could all live without, but the only important question in this matter is simply is Peter a respectable gentleman, is his product a good one , does Peter have a reputation of standing behind his product? The answer to all those questions is YES. Call me a fool for still doing deals with a handshake but I guess I am Canadian! Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Absolutely, Mike. I refused to buy the Jab after being presented with those terms. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:12 PM PST US From: Steve Hulland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: Steve Hulland Mark, Glad to hear there are still some around who are willing to work off a handshake and have faith in others. I have been doing so throughout my 60 years on this earth and will continue to do so - no matter what the legal wolves will do. Still looking for the "right" engine for my 701. Steve Hulland Amado, Arizona On 7/8/05, Zodie Rocket wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" > > I had just spent 30 minutes with a smart ass reply to Dave's statement, > and then I erased it all. I will tease Dave in person and not on this > list! > Peter is a stand up fellow which I have respect for and I have heard > from others attesting to the same over the last few years. The piece of > paper is only to cover his butt that is hung out for the wolves to chew > on. I trust this man and gladly sign the piece of paper similar to the > one Zenith handed me to sign, in order to obtain an engine that has > proven to be a great fit to the Zodiac XL airframe. The paper is lawyer > speak that I wish we could all live without, but the only important > question in this matter is simply is Peter a respectable gentleman, is > his product a good one , does Peter have a reputation of standing behind > his product? The answer to all those questions is YES. Call me a fool > for still doing deals with a handshake but I guess I am Canadian! > > Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario > Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 > President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter > www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com/ > www.Osprey2.com > > -----Original Message----- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" > > > Absolutely, Mike. > I refused to buy the Jab after being presented with those terms. > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:31 PM PST US From: Mike Fortunato Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > Peter is a stand up fellow which I have respect for Mark, since i started this thread I guess I'll throw in one more comment. I never wrote anything to question Pete's character, nor even that of Jabiru. In fact, Pete has been more than helpful in answering my questions, even before I made the final decision to purchase. I understand where they're coming from -- I just thought it best to get others' opinions and to see if they agreed to sign. Pete or no Pete, the document is VERY restrictive, and it's implications are way beyond simple warranty issues. As I wrote, Jabiru USA is not alone in demanding these waivers, and in fact, the only way they can get away with it is because all the other manufacturers in this biz are demanding the exact same thing. I suspect one day this will all come to a head in some court somewhere. I just don't want to be the one involved. :) Mike Fortunato do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:33 PM PST US From: Mike Fortunato Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > Glad to hear there are still some around who are > willing to work off a handshake and have faith in > others. I'l try not to take that comment personally, coming from the standpoint of seeing this as a valid concern. God forbid anything should happen to a loved one of yours due to a material or labor defect in something you bought, and that handshake may not seem quite so solid. Mike Fortunato do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:57 PM PST US From: Monty Graves Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves While I am not saying not to use .020 instead of .016. I think its important to ACTUALLY KNOW what amount of weight is being added to the plane by switching . A 4 X 12 sheet of .016 weighs 11.06 lbs A 4 X 12 sheet of .020 weighs 13.82 lbs A 4 X 12 sheet of .025 weighs 17.28 lbs switching 10 sheets of .016 with .020 in the 601 adds 27 lbs to the plane. Monty At 12:52 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > >Max, >I recommend you use the .020 or .025 for all the top skins as there's no >appreciable difference >for weight consideration. .016 is delicate at the very least and could >present handling problems >soon after you start flying. I used .020 and .025 respectively, on the >top skins going forward and >am pleased I did. Tail feathers were .016, but wish I'd known then to >use .020. > >Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com >do not archive > >Max Koenig wrote: > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Max Koenig > > > >I received my plans two weeks ago. It specifies .025 for the bottom & side > >fuselage. However, it continues to specify .016 for the rear top skin, > >6B21-6, and the tail ribs, 6T1-2, stab skin, 6T2-4, and elevator ribs & > >skin. > > > >Has anyone used .020 or .025 in these specific parts? Or calculated the > >impact on weight and balance? > > > >Max Koenig > >XL plans built; still setting up shop; > >Bakersfield, CA > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: ROBERT SCEPPA [mailto:rjscep@yahoo.com] > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" > > > > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA > > > > > > > >>Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't > >>aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa > >> > >> > >> > > > >--- William Dominguez wrote: > > > > > > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez > >> > >> > >> > >>Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too > >>except > >>I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest > >>changes. > >> > >> > >>William Dominguez > >>Miami, Florida > >>601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 > >>.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs > >> > >>do not archive > >> > >>--- N5SL wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL > >>> > >>> > >>>William: > >>> > >>>After completing the tail section I didn't order > >>> > >>> > >>any > >> > >> > >>>more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with > >>> > >>> > >>.020". > >> > >> > >>>As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since > >>> > >>> > >>then > >> > >> > >>>ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins > >>>to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings > >>>called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made > >>> > >>> > >>the > >> > >> > >>>top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the > >>>gussets just like my drawings required. I also > >>>found that .016" was difficult to find and more > >>>expensive than .020" 6061-T6. > >>> > >>>Let me know if you have any more questions, > >>> > >>>Scott Laughlin > >>>www.cooknwithgas.com > >>> > >>>William Dominguez wrote: > >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William > >>> > >>> > >>Dominguez > >> > >> > >>>Scott, > >>> > >>>Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or > >>>only those used for the skin. .016 is more > >>> > >>> > >>difficult > >> > >> > >>>to find locally. > >>> > >>> > >>>--------------------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>browse > >>>Subscriptions page, > >>>FAQ, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>__________________________________ > >>http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > >> > >> > >> > >>browse > >>Subscriptions page, > >>FAQ, > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:37 PM PST US From: Monty Graves Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 struts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves My 11/2004 edition of that page shows same as yours.. Front 2090 Rear 2030 Monty At 05:41 PM 7/8/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com > >Does anyone know if the lengths shown for the wing struts really work? I >made a mock-up of the front strut today and it looks too long. I do not >know for >sure 'cause my wings are not on yet. I building to the 4th ed. plans dated >10-2001,and have an update for the strut lengths dated 10-02. Oddly enough >the >3rd ed. plans show the struts shorter,Zenith would'nt make a mistake in there > next edition would they? ; ) Will somebody look at a newer set of plans >for me. I have a front strut length, hole-to-hole dimension of 2090, and the >rear strut hole-to hole is shown as 2030. I did check the angle of >the lower >strut/gear fitting.(7F17?) 60 degrees from the cabin side right? > Thanks > Flydog > needing a bigger garage to fit my wings > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:32 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 struts --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Flydog, Just checked my 5th edition, 4th revision set of plans and they show the same lenghts. Don't forget that the outboard edges of the wings will be higher that the inboard per 7V-10. I am building my hanger so that I can mount mine. Bob Spudis N701ZX ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:40 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Just as a note regarding Pete, I don't know any of the people involved but if Pete or any of the other stand up guys should die or leave the company you are still left with a legal document and that is what will be used to settle any disagreements. Been there done that. Bob Spudis ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:37 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver, Jab vs. 912 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Reply to William, I bought my Rotax back in 1992 through Zenair in Canada and signed no waiver at all. When I needed an engine for my next project 3 years ago I chose the Jab 8 cyl.. I was then sent the papers we are discussing from the Canadian reps. Two fine people, but the terms were too rich for me. So I bought a LOM 337C and signed a document that excused the dealer and LOM for any accident thru incorrect use of the engine, but did not totally excuse them, nor did it tie the warranty the way the Jab. papers clearly expressed. As long as the installation meets their specs, I'm OK. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire MK VIII ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:23 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >I couldn't resist making one more comment on the issue of product liability. I am not a lawyer, but I have experience in the world of business. I expect any manufacturer to back up their product with support in case of product problems. This includes replacing parts that fail in infancy and similar support activity. I always wanted my customers to be satisfied and I think this is the case with most honest businessmen. I don't think it is pieces of paper or "Warranties" that motivate producers to stand behind their products - it is a desire to conduct their businesses in a competitive marketplace and satisfy their customers. I would recommend to anyone who doubts this attitude to consider that any businessman who is really criminally oriented could easily make a lot more money selling illegal drugs. In aviation, the temptation for people to sue manufacturers based on "Product Liability" has made junky airplanes like Cessna 172's cost over $150,000 - before adding the expensive parts like avionics. (I actually think Cessnas are the cream of the crop for low priced standard aircraft, so please don't think I am trying to shoot down Cessna.) The notion that amateur builders take responsibility for their own actions instead of looking for someone else to blame for anything that goes wrong is central to the lower prices involved. I consider the waivers of liability to be one of the ways our suppliers try to limit the number of "Nuisance" lawsuits that could ruin the whole playing ground -- just as it has for normal general aviation. My final thought -- If you think a Jabiru engine is the best choice for your airplane then go ahead and buy it. Take responsibility for the decision. Ultimately, it is your rear-end that will depend on the decisions you make. If you are the kind of person who must have a way to blame others for your own decisions, then perhaps building an airplane is not the right activity for you. I think people with that approach to life should get a good government "Civil Service" job and never take any chances in any part of their lives. I hope my comments help you rise above the negative thoughts of suing an engine manufacturer for any product issue. I will feel I have accomplished a great thing if my thoughts set you free from this kind of thinking. Good Luck! Paul Zodiac XL, barely started - waiting for wing kit. --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:52 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Monty, You'd be exactly right if you used the entire sheet, but after lightening holes and part dimensions, etc, it comes to less than half that and the trouble you save is worth twice that. Larry do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monty Graves" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves > > While I am not saying not to use .020 instead of .016. I think its > important to ACTUALLY KNOW what amount of weight is being added to the > plane by switching . > > A 4 X 12 sheet of .016 weighs 11.06 lbs > A 4 X 12 sheet of .020 weighs 13.82 lbs > A 4 X 12 sheet of .025 weighs 17.28 lbs > > switching 10 sheets of .016 with .020 in the 601 adds 27 lbs to the > plane. > > Monty > > > At 12:52 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland >> >>Max, >>I recommend you use the .020 or .025 for all the top skins as there's no >>appreciable difference >>for weight consideration. .016 is delicate at the very least and could >>present handling problems >>soon after you start flying. I used .020 and .025 respectively, on the >>top skins going forward and >>am pleased I did. Tail feathers were .016, but wish I'd known then to >>use .020. >> >>Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com >>do not archive >> >>Max Koenig wrote: >> >> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Max Koenig >> > >> >I received my plans two weeks ago. It specifies .025 for the bottom & >> >side >> >fuselage. However, it continues to specify .016 for the rear top skin, >> >6B21-6, and the tail ribs, 6T1-2, stab skin, 6T2-4, and elevator ribs & >> >skin. >> > >> >Has anyone used .020 or .025 in these specific parts? Or calculated the >> >impact on weight and balance? >> > >> >Max Koenig >> >XL plans built; still setting up shop; >> >Bakersfield, CA >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: ROBERT SCEPPA [mailto:rjscep@yahoo.com] >> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" >> > >> > >> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA >> > >> > >> > >> >>Is there new changes on the tail skins? I wasn't >> >>aware. I thank you also Robert Sceppa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >--- William Dominguez wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Thanks for the info Scott. I'll go for that too >> >>except >> >>I will use .025 on tail skin as per the newest >> >>changes. >> >> >> >> >> >>William Dominguez >> >>Miami, Florida >> >>601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 >> >>.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs >> >> >> >>do not archive >> >> >> >>--- N5SL wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>William: >> >>> >> >>>After completing the tail section I didn't order >> >>> >> >>> >> >>any >> >> >> >> >> >>>more .016" aluminum. I replaced it all with >> >>> >> >>> >> >>.020". >> >> >> >> >> >>>As Kevin Bonds pointed out (thanks Kevin) since >> >>> >> >>> >> >>then >> >> >> >> >> >>>ZAC has changed the fuselage side and bottom skins >> >>>to .025". I did mine in .020" but my drawings >> >>>called out .016" sides and bottom. Also I made >> >>> >> >>> >> >>the >> >> >> >> >> >>>top skins in .020" aluminum. I installed the >> >>>gussets just like my drawings required. I also >> >>>found that .016" was difficult to find and more >> >>>expensive than .020" 6061-T6. >> >>> >> >>>Let me know if you have any more questions, >> >>> >> >>>Scott Laughlin >> >>>www.cooknwithgas.com >> >>> >> >>>William Dominguez wrote: >> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: William >> >>> >> >>> >> >>Dominguez >> >> >> >> >> >>>Scott, >> >>> >> >>>Do you mean substitute all .016 sheets for .020 or >> >>>only those used for the skin. .016 is more >> >>> >> >>> >> >>difficult >> >> >> >> >> >>>to find locally. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>--------------------------------- >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>browse >> >>>Subscriptions page, >> >>>FAQ, >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>__________________________________ >> >>http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>browse >> >>Subscriptions page, >> >>FAQ, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:10 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com In a message dated 7/8/2005 6:05:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net writes: I think people with that approach to life should get a good government "Civil Service" job and never take any chances in any part of their lives My Civil service job pays well and is challenging (I am a Union special skills electrician doing energy management) It also has a good retirement that in 9 years when I retire will pay 71 % of my salary. I also fly, ride motorcycles, fish on the ocean ,water ski, shoot and many oter actvities that sometimes make my wife cringe. My point is dont bag on the Civil service: we are not all the jerk at the DMV... Joe Motis Do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:06 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Zenith-List: Buying a 601? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL? Jim! ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:21 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Materials List - 0.016" vs. 0.020" --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez "switching 10 sheets of .016 with .020 in the 601 adds 27 lbs to the plane." Well not exactly, based on the material layout there is only 5 4x12 sheets of .016 and 1 4x8. Using .025 for bottom and side skin reduce it to only 4 sheets of 4x12. Then substract some leftover and it you will end up with maybe 12 lbs. William Dominguez Miami, Florida 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs === message truncated === ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:33 PM PST US From: Mike Fortunato Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > If you are the kind of person who must have > a way to blame others for your own decisions, then > perhaps building an airplane is not the right > activity for you. I think people with > that approach to life should get a good government > "Civil Service" job and never take any chances in any > part of their lives. Well, I'm not sure how many different classes of people you offended with that single paragraph, but...um...ok. So, if I buy an engine that has a latent defect (one that could not be discovered via normal means), and that causes my family to crash & die, then there should be no manufacturer liability for that? You can't possibly believe that. I never said I was looking for reasons to sue anyone. Good grief. Mike Fortunato Alta Loma, CA Not a civil servant ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:27 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601? --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Try http://www.sportsplanes.com/ they sell the factory build 601 XL with either Rotax 912 or Continental O-200. Just be ready to open your wallet very wide since prices start arount 70k for the eLSA William Dominguez Miami, Florida 601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300 .001% done, doing stabilizer ribs --- Jim Langley wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" > > > > I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you > guys recommend a > good place to look for a completed or almost > completed XL? > > Jim! > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:47 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: LAST RE: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Every once in awhile members of this list needs to expunge a little steam. I'm no different and for a short period of time I enjoy it. I know most of you now and I also know that most of you have nothing short of good intentions. Having said that it is easy to take any line in a letter the wrong way no matter how good the intention was. Lets drop this string of E-Mails now as I'm sure Mike has all the info needed for his decision, the world is what it is and we sometimes have to do the Lemming thinngggy or make different decisions. ANY responses that one feels a need to add please send it to me OFFLINE at cdngoose@osprey2.com. Or if a reply to any previous message in this link is warranted please address to the individual that sent it. Thanks Folks. Did anyone make it to Arlington? Care to share what you saw? Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:57 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a >good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL? > > Try Sportsplanes.com http://www.sportsplanes.com/ I spoke to a guy at the Arlington fly-in yesterday who is expecting a 601 XL in August. Paul do not archive --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:40 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Liability waiver --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >Well, I'm not sure how many different classes of >people you offended with that single paragraph, >but...um...ok. So, if I buy an engine that has a >latent defect (one that could not be discovered via >normal means), and that causes my family to crash & >die, then there should be no manufacturer liability >for that? You can't possibly believe that. I never >said I was looking for reasons to sue anyone. Good >grief. > >Mike Fortunato Sorry, Mike. I didn't mean to offend anybody. I also didn't mean to say there is anything wrong with being a civil servant (although I do think our nation would be better off with a few less of them living on the backs of the taxpayers). My point was only to say that the right to sue for damages should not be your decision point when choosing something as important as an engine for your custom built airplane. I must wonder, though, why you think an engine failure should lead to loss of life. I have met many people who have survived forced landings due to engine failures over the years. My favorite instructor had performed 14 of them by the time I knew him (he flew ancient planes to museums for display and often had the engines blow up on him on the way). I guess if you feel you must sue the engine manufacturer after a glitch kills your whole family then you would be happier buying a new Piper or something where that is the normal way dealing with responsibility for accidents. If you succeed in changing the amateur airplane building environment to preserve the "Right" to make the lawyers rich through product liability lawsuits then the result will be the end of affordable airplanes for the rest of us. >I still wish you good luck. > >Paul do not archive >======================== --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:04 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne Of course if you are looking at pre-built aircraft you should also look at the many composite LSA coming out. By going for a pre-built plane you eliminate one of the key advantages of the 601XL - ease of home construction. -- Craig Jim Langley wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" > > > I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a > good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL? > > Jim! > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:13 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Zenith-List: Arlington Fly-in Report --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I just got back from Arlington. The weather was awful on Wednesday and Friday, but nice weather prevailed Thursday. Two of the Heintz boys were there, Nicholas and Michael, and the factory demonstrator 601XL and two local 701's were also there. I was fortunate to get a demo ride in the XL on Thursday with Nicholas as the demonstration pilot. I was a little bit surprised at how docile the plane performed -- I was expecting a really twitchy plane and I thought it was actually very well behaved. Nicholas Heintz is the ZAC Production Manager (I hope I got that right) and one of 4 sons of the Zenith line designer Chris Heintz. I found him to be a delightful person and greatly enjoyed meeting him. Michael Heintz is starting a West Coast support arm for ZAC in Santa Rosa, CA. I also found him to be a very nice guy and was glad I met him. One small piece of information I got from Nick about ZAC. I asked him how many people work there, and the answer was 15. Bob Archibald was there from Dragonfly Aviation in Santa Rosa, CA to talk about his efforts to provide training in Zenith planes. He told me he expects to receive an S-LSA version of the XL with a Continental engine in August. He will be providing instruction in that plane as soon as it arrives. His web site is dragonflyaviation.com, and his business phone number is (707) 575-8750. I guess that is the most important Zenith related stuff I can report from the fly-in. Paul XL barely started - waiting for wing kit. --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 ---------------------------------------------