Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:14 AM - Re: Buying a 601? (Jim Langley)
2. 05:45 AM - Re: Buying a 601? (Jim Pellien)
3. 05:48 AM - Re: Liability waiver (Larry McFarland)
4. 07:59 AM - 601XL Horiz stab (Joe Kerr)
5. 09:19 AM - [ Johann G. Johannsson ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
6. 09:20 AM - Re: 601XL Horiz stab (Paul Mulwitz)
7. 10:01 AM - Re: [ Johann G. Johannsson ] : New Email List Photo Share Availa... (NYTerminat@aol.com)
8. 10:39 AM - liability - but by degrees (Jeff Small)
9. 10:39 AM - Re: 601XL Horiz stab (Gary A. Boothe)
10. 10:57 AM - Re: Buying a 601? ()
11. 11:50 AM - Re: Jaibaru liability (Garrou, Douglas)
12. 11:52 AM - Re: Buying a 601? (Jim Langley)
13. 01:06 PM - Re: [ Johann G. Johannsson ] : New Email List Photo (Larry McFarland)
14. 01:16 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (Tim Egan)
15. 01:51 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (Michael Gaskins)
16. 01:51 PM - Re: Arlington Fly-in Report (Larry.Drake@atdf.com)
17. 03:51 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (Jim Langley)
18. 03:53 PM - Will I fit in a 601? (Jim Langley)
19. 04:00 PM - Source of Materials (William Dominguez)
20. 04:47 PM - Re: [ Johann G. Johannsson ] : New Email List Photo Share Availa... (Elwood140@aol.com)
21. 04:55 PM - Space needed for complete 701 Kit (grusha)
22. 05:16 PM - Re: Will I fit in a 601? (Larry McFarland)
23. 06:25 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (Jim Langley)
24. 06:44 PM - Re: Space needed for complete 701 Kit (Clyde Barcus)
25. 06:48 PM - Re: liability - but by degrees (Mike Fortunato)
26. 06:56 PM - Re: Space needed for complete 701 Kit (ROBERT SCEPPA)
27. 07:13 PM - Re: Buying a 601? (Paul Mulwitz)
28. 07:18 PM - Re: Space needed for complete 701 Kit (Bob Stephanak)
29. 11:06 PM - Re: Jaibaru liability (Mike Fortunato)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
I think is I end up with a pre built aircraft (601), it would be a used
one. I can't afford $70k for a factory built model at this point. The
only reason that I would consider buying a used 601 is to get up into
the air quickly. I'm going out to Oshkosh at the end of the month and
will be talking to Zenith and sitting in a 601 there. I am 6'-2" and
245lbs and want to make sure I am comfortable in the airplane.
I still would like to build my own.
Jim!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Of course if you are looking at pre-built aircraft you should also look
at the many composite LSA coming out. By going for a pre-built plane you
eliminate one of the key advantages of the 601XL - ease of home
construction.
-- Craig
Jim Langley wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley"
<tempaddress@worldhost.net>
>
>
> I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a
> good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL?
>
> Jim!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Buying a 601? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
Jim,
I can get you a completed 601 ELSA in 2 months from the factory. We are the
distributors for factory built Zodiac 601XL ELSA and SLSA.
The ELSA version starts at $69,900 with a Rotax 912S engine, and the SLSA
starting price has been reduced to $74,900 with either the Continental O-200
or the Rotax 912S engines.
If you are interested in knowing more, please go to my Mid-Atlantic Sports
Planes website at: www.maspl.com
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley"
<tempaddress@worldhost.net>
>
>
> I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a
> good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL?
>
> Jim!
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Liability waiver |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Gentlemen,
Let's please add "do not archive" to these types of comment". I'd
prefer to read these only once
but especially not in the permanent archives.
Thanks again,
Larry McFarland
do not archive
Mike Fortunato wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
>
>
>
>
>>If you are the kind of person who must have
>>a way to blame others for your own decisions, then
>>perhaps building an airplane is not the right
>>activity for you. I think people with
>>that approach to life should get a good government
>>"Civil Service" job and never take any chances in
>>
>>
>any > part of their lives.
>
>Well, I'm not sure how many different classes of
>people you offended with that single paragraph,
>but...um...ok. So, if I buy an engine that has a
>latent defect (one that could not be discovered via
>normal means), and that causes my family to crash &
>die, then there should be no manufacturer liability
>for that? You can't possibly believe that. I never
>said I was looking for reasons to sue anyone. Good
>grief.
>
>Mike Fortunato
>Alta Loma, CA
>Not a civil servant
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | 601XL Horiz stab |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Kerr" <kerrjf@charter.net>
When it came time to place the front spar of my horiz stab skeleton on the 1x2
furring strip and screw wood blocks to the workbench to hold down the rear flange
in preparation for skinning, I noticed that the 1x2 did not raise the ribs
far enough off the workbench to screw the rear flange tightly to the workbench-the
positioning of the ribs (up and down) allowed the rib flange to make contact
with the bench before the flange that was to be screwed down. This made
me take a closer look at my rib positioning in order to ensure a smooth transition
of the skin from the flange to the ribs. While at least two of the ribs
do need to be moved up to clear the workbench, I notice that there is still a
gap between the rib flange and skin of maybe 1.5 to 2mm on some of the other ribs.
Moving them up to close the gap will create or increase a gap on the other
side. For those of you who have completed your stab, (and I suppose, wings)
did you encounter this? Did you shim to fill the distance, did you bend the
rib flange up to close the gap, or does the rivet simply pull the skin and flange
together in an acceptable manner that did not create a wavy skin surface?
Thanks-
Joe
Reno, NV
Message 5
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| Subject: | [ Johann G. Johannsson ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Johann G. Johannsson <johann@gi.is>
Lists: Zenith-List
Subject: Completion of my Zenith 701
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/johann@gi.is.07.09.2005/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Horiz stab |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> While at least two of the ribs do need to be moved up to clear
> the workbench, I notice that there is still a gap between the rib
> flange and skin of maybe 1.5 to 2mm on some of the other
> ribs. Moving them up to close the gap will create or increase a
> gap on the other side.
I am not sure I really understood your dilemma with the stabilizer
ribs an skin, but I had an interesting time myself.
First, if you fill all your drilled holes with Clecos you should get
a similar skin to rib relationship as you will get when the rivets
are installed. If your problem still exists then you may want to
take more drastic steps.
I found I needed to replace at least one elevator rib because of
holes drilled in the wrong places. This was not terribly hard to
do. I ordered a little aluminum from Aircraft Spruce and bent it
into the right shape. If you don't want to try "Scratch" building a
rib or two, I am sure you can order replacement parts from ZAC.
Good Luck,
Paul
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: [ Johann G. Johannsson ] : New Email List Photo Share |
Availa...
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
In a message dated 7/9/2005 12:21:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pictures@matronics.com writes:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/johann@gi.is.07.09.2005/index.html
Johann
Great pictures, thanks for sharing. I love your tail!
Happy flying
Bob Spudis
Do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | liability - but by degrees |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
>I refused to buy the Jab after being presented with those terms.
>Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Some times you just have to stick by your principles. So tell us, how did you
rationalize the Zenith demand for signing a waiver? Yes for kit but no for engine?
regards jeff do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Horiz stab |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Joe,
I had a couple ribs that may not have been a perfect fit, but just centered
them as best as possible. End result - I don't think anyone could see that
there was a discrepancy. Of course, your situation may be worse. Just make
sure you have the ribs pointed in the right direction (I can say that
because I almost made that mistake).
Paul Mulwitz advised that you go ahead and get everything clecoed to see how
it looks - good advice, I think.
Good luck,
Gary Boothe, Cool, Ca
<gboothe@calply.com>
601HDSTD, WW Corvair Conv. - complete
Tail Group - complete. Awaiting wing kit...
>
> When it came time to place the front spar of my horiz stab skeleton on the
> 1x2 furring strip and screw wood blocks to the workbench to hold down the
> rear flange in preparation for skinning, I noticed that the 1x2 did not
> raise the ribs far enough off the workbench to screw the rear flange
> tightly to the workbench-the positioning of the ribs (up and down) allowed
> the rib flange to make contact with the bench before the flange that was
> to be screwed down. This made me take a closer look at my rib positioning
> in order to ensure a smooth transition of the skin from the flange to the
> ribs. While at least two of the ribs do need to be moved up to clear the
> workbench, I notice that there is still a gap between the rib flange and
> skin of maybe 1.5 to 2mm on some of the other ribs. Moving them up to
> close the gap will create or increase a gap on the other side. For those
> of you who have completed your stab, (and I suppose, wings) did you
> encounter this? Did you shim to fill the !
> distance, did you bend the rib flange up to close the gap, or does the
> rivet simply pull the skin and flange together in an acceptable manner
> that did not create a wavy skin surface? Thanks-
> Joe
> Reno, NV
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Buying a 601? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
I would suggest that you examine your motives and expectations of flying. If you
just want to fly, and are willing to have someone else do the maintenance,
repairs and modifications to your plane, then by all means buy something ready
built. If you get almost as much joy out of doing things with your hands, and
seeing the results of your skill (in my case lack of it), and want to save a
few bucks along the way, then look again at building your own. I don't knock those
who prefer to pull it out, fly, put it back, and have somebody else do the
mechanikin'. Been there, done that. They are having fun with what they do, and
it's right for them. It's what keeps Cessna, Beech, et al, in business. This
is one of those cases of "different strokes for different folks", and there
is no right, or wrong, answer. Maybe the better answer is to buy a 150, build
a 601, sell the 150, (probably for more than you paid) and have the best of
both worlds.
Paul Rodriguez
601XL/Corvair
Gear legs goin' on
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Pellien<mailto:jim@pellien.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com<mailto:jim@pellien.com>>
Jim,
I can get you a completed 601 ELSA in 2 months from the factory. We are the
distributors for factory built Zodiac 601XL ELSA and SLSA.
The ELSA version starts at $69,900 with a Rotax 912S engine, and the SLSA
starting price has been reduced to $74,900 with either the Continental O-200
or the Rotax 912S engines.
If you are interested in knowing more, please go to my Mid-Atlantic Sports
Planes website at: www.maspl.com<http://www.maspl.com/>
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net<mailto:tempaddress@worldhost.net>>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>>
Subject: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley"
<tempaddress@worldhost.net<mailto:tempaddress@worldhost.net>>
>
>
> I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a
> good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL?
>
> Jim!
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Jaibaru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
I'm also a bloodsucker, and have even portrayed bloodsuckers in movies. I defend
companies against antitrust class actions, so you *might* consider me an anti-bloodsucker,
depending upon your world view. But then the people who sue those
companies for antitrust violations think I'm a bloodsucker, so.... And ironically
enough, I suppose the original poster was talking about protecting HIS
right to sue -- presumably with a bloodsucker leading the charge -- so I suppose
he is looking to ensure his ability to suck blood, but only if need be.
The appropriate use of the bloodsucker pejorative just makes my head spin. And
yes, the foregoing is tongue in cheek and not intended to offend anyone.
Now, as a preliminary matter: You guys aren't my clients, I can't offer you legal
advice, and if you rely on this as legal advice you are completely, utterly,
and totally insane, because I hereby solemnly represent myself as the very
worst lawyer in the history of the universe. (How's THAT for CYA?) But I can
discuss these matters generally and academically.
Generally and academically, there is no simple answer to the question "is this
waiver enforceable?" It will depend entirely on what the waiver says, and on
your state's and/or country's laws (I don't want to be US-centric). These laws
vary considerably and materially. Only an attorney familiar with those laws
can advise you, and even then he or she might get it completely wrong, with disastrous
consequences.
If you have even a passing interest in these issues, please re-read the preceding
paragraph about 75 times!
People *routinely* tell each other, as some have said here, that "you can't sign away your rights." Well, I'm here to tell you friends, that just ain't so. Far be it from me to give you legal advice, see disclaimer above, but never, ever sign something on the assumption that it is unenforceable. I tell you verily, this isn't just standard lawyer doubletalk -- I ain't just whistling Dixie here! Check out http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/dc/037121a.pdf, and particularly pages 5-6, to see the effect of the difference in jurisdiction regarding the enforceability of a personal injury waiver. Big dollar cases, including that one, are won and lost every day based on picayune distinctions only a lawyer could love.
On to more clear matters: Your Brand X engine throws a rod and you crash into
a schoolbus. Can Brand X rely upon a waiver to defend a lawsuit brought by the
kids on the schoolbus? No, of course not, since the kids (and their parents...)
didn't sign it. This, incidentally, is why manufacturers (including homebuilders)
can't totally limit their liability in selling an engine, or a complete
homebuilt, by using a waiver, at least not in the Land of the Free. You just
can't get the whole world to sign. This fact drives people nuts, because
it means they simply can't sell their homebuilt with legal impunity, no matter
how much they may want to, who signs what, or how badly they want to convince
themselves otherwise. I have driven some people nuts by repeating this fact
to them ad nauseum -- this is sort of my version of the fuel pump/vapor lock debate
-- but the fact remains the fact.
You could contractually require the actual buyer to "hold you harmless" from things
like the schoolbus lawsuit, or even require him or her to purchase insurance
that would cover you as well, but those are hardly as good as an enforceable
waiver. Particularly if the buyer is penniless and/or fails to purchase insurance,
if you get what I mean. Or if nobody will sell anybody in the chain
insurance. Jabiru apparently faces this problem, and so would you, most likely,
if you ever sold a homebuilt or an engine you built.
Now, with all this hypothetical discussion of tort liability, bloodsuckers, crashing
into schoolbuses, etc., it's important to keep in mind that the *actual
engine warranty* is a legally distinct and very important matter. Will the manufacturer
pay to fix it if it stops working on day five through no fault of your
own? This is where most people are likely to get into trouble - buying an
expensive engine that stops working, through no fault of their own, and then
having no recourse against the manufacturer. So make sure you understand the
run-of-the-mill warranty provisions.
I know nothing about Jabiru's warranty terms or their quality. Speaking for myself,
and in general only, I wouldn't buy any engine that didn't come with at
least some kind of written (emphasize WRITTEN) warranty spelling out who will
pay for what if it breaks. I suspect Lycoming, etc. have this kind of written
warranty, but I'm not sure. If a liability waiver ALSO tried to include a "no
warranty on the engine" provision, that would concern me. But that's just me.
Of course, I'd buy a no-warranty airplane engine from a hobo before I would buy
a warrantied auto conversion (ducking....).
Speaking of which, am I correct that some or all Rotaxes come with disclaimers
that they shouldn't be used on airplanes? I've heard that; if so, I love that
one.
Cheers
Doug "Bloodsucker" Garrou, General Counsel and Unskilled Laborer, Project 801.
www.garrou.com
p.s. Say what you will, but I continue to think that attorneys in general are
morally superior to real estate agents.
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
Thanks Paul for the suggestions. I went through the same process when
selecting a tractor for use with my property and selected a great
bargain tractor that is a brute, but requires me to do more of my own
maintenance than something like a John Deere. I enjoy it, but also am
looking to get into the air quickly with my own airplane.
I really do want to build, but do not want to wait, or rent an airplane
at this point.
Right now, my mindset is to buy and then start building slowly while I
fly.
Jim!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
PAULROD36@msn.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
I would suggest that you examine your motives and expectations of
flying. If you just want to fly, and are willing to have someone else
do the maintenance, repairs and modifications to your plane, then by all
means buy something ready built. If you get almost as much joy out of
doing things with your hands, and seeing the results of your skill (in
my case lack of it), and want to save a few bucks along the way, then
look again at building your own. I don't knock those who prefer to pull
it out, fly, put it back, and have somebody else do the mechanikin'.
Been there, done that. They are having fun with what they do, and it's
right for them. It's what keeps Cessna, Beech, et al, in business.
This is one of those cases of "different strokes for different folks",
and there is no right, or wrong, answer. Maybe the better answer is to
buy a 150, build a 601, sell the 150, (probably for more than you paid)
and have the best of both worlds.
Paul Rodriguez
601XL/Corvair
Gear legs goin' on
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: [ Johann G. Johannsson ] : New Email List Photo |
Share Available!
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Beautiful aircraft Johann,
You've got some very interesting looking territory to fly in.
Great piece of work!
Do fly safe!
do not archive
Larry McFarland
Email List Photo Shares wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
>
>
>A new Email List Photo Share is available:
>
> Poster: Johann G. Johannsson <johann@gi.is>
>
> Lists: Zenith-List
>
> Subject: Completion of my Zenith 701
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/johann@gi.is.07.09.2005/index.html
>
>
> o Main Photo Share Index
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>
> o Submitting a Photo Share
>
> If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
> following information along with your email message and files:
>
> 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
> 2) Your Full Name:
> 3) Your Email Address:
> 4) One line Subject description:
> 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
> 6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
>
> Email the information above and your files and photos to:
>
> pictures@matronics.com
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Buying a 601? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Egan" <eedetailing@qwest.net>
Barnstormers.com is also a good place to look.
TmE
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley"
<tempaddress@worldhost.net>
>
>
> I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a
> good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL?
>
> Jim!
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Buying a 601? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Gaskins <mbgaski@winterfairy.com>
Perhaps you might look into some other certified used aircraft if you're
planning on building the Zodiac whilst flying? I've got my plan set and
intend on starting construction sometime in the next few months, but I'm
seriously considering getting something like a Grumman AA-1 to fly while
working on the Zodiac. They seem like neat little planes, don't cost a
whole lot, and you can likely sell it off for what you paid for it after
you finish up hour Zodiac (or any other homebuilt). Other thoughts
might be an Ercoupe, Piper Tomahawk, Beech Skipper, Mooney Cadet, or
even a Cessna 150/152.
Just a thought.
Mike Gaskins
Huger, SC
Zodiac 601XL Plans #5780
Jim Langley wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
>
>Thanks Paul for the suggestions. I went through the same process when
>selecting a tractor for use with my property and selected a great
>bargain tractor that is a brute, but requires me to do more of my own
>maintenance than something like a John Deere. I enjoy it, but also am
>looking to get into the air quickly with my own airplane.
>
>I really do want to build, but do not want to wait, or rent an airplane
>at this point.
>
>Right now, my mindset is to buy and then start building slowly while I
>fly.
>
>Jim!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>PAULROD36@msn.com
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
>
>I would suggest that you examine your motives and expectations of
>flying. If you just want to fly, and are willing to have someone else
>do the maintenance, repairs and modifications to your plane, then by all
>means buy something ready built. If you get almost as much joy out of
>doing things with your hands, and seeing the results of your skill (in
>my case lack of it), and want to save a few bucks along the way, then
>look again at building your own. I don't knock those who prefer to pull
>it out, fly, put it back, and have somebody else do the mechanikin'.
>Been there, done that. They are having fun with what they do, and it's
>right for them. It's what keeps Cessna, Beech, et al, in business.
>This is one of those cases of "different strokes for different folks",
>and there is no right, or wrong, answer. Maybe the better answer is to
>buy a 150, build a 601, sell the 150, (probably for more than you paid)
>and have the best of both worlds.
>
>Paul Rodriguez
>601XL/Corvair
>Gear legs goin' on
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Arlington Fly-in Report |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry.Drake@atdf.com
please remove me from the this email list
Larry Drake
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Subject: Zenith-List: Arlington Fly-in Report
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
I just got back from Arlington.
The weather was awful on Wednesday and Friday, but nice weather
prevailed Thursday.
Two of the Heintz boys were there, Nicholas and Michael, and the
factory demonstrator 601XL and two local 701's were also there.
I was fortunate to get a demo ride in the XL on Thursday with
Nicholas as the demonstration pilot. I was a little bit surprised at
how docile the plane performed -- I was expecting a really twitchy
plane and I thought it was actually very well behaved.
Nicholas Heintz is the ZAC Production Manager (I hope I got that
right) and one of 4 sons of the Zenith line designer Chris Heintz. I
found him to be a delightful person and greatly enjoyed meeting
him. Michael Heintz is starting a West Coast support arm for ZAC in
Santa Rosa, CA. I also found him to be a very nice guy and was glad I met him.
One small piece of information I got from Nick about ZAC. I asked
him how many people work there, and the answer was 15.
Bob Archibald was there from Dragonfly Aviation in Santa Rosa, CA to
talk about his efforts to provide training in Zenith planes. He told
me he expects to receive an S-LSA version of the XL with a
Continental engine in August. He will be providing instruction in
that plane as soon as it arrives. His web site is
dragonflyaviation.com, and his business phone number is (707) 575-8750.
I guess that is the most important Zenith related stuff I can report
from the fly-in.
Paul
XL barely started - waiting for wing kit.
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
Thanks Mike:
I saw a Grumman AA-1-A on ebay and really liked what I saw. It seems to
be somewhat like the 601 in appearance and performance. I think the 601
is a little more stable though.
I might go that route. I am going to keep looking and not make any
decisions until after I go to Oshkosh and look at a lot of different
airplanes.
Jim!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Gaskins
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Gaskins
<mbgaski@winterfairy.com>
Perhaps you might look into some other certified used aircraft if you're
planning on building the Zodiac whilst flying? I've got my plan set and
intend on starting construction sometime in the next few months, but I'm
seriously considering getting something like a Grumman AA-1 to fly while
working on the Zodiac. They seem like neat little planes, don't cost a
whole lot, and you can likely sell it off for what you paid for it after
you finish up hour Zodiac (or any other homebuilt). Other thoughts
might be an Ercoupe, Piper Tomahawk, Beech Skipper, Mooney Cadet, or
even a Cessna 150/152.
Just a thought.
Mike Gaskins
Huger, SC
Zodiac 601XL Plans #5780
Jim Langley wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley"
<tempaddress@worldhost.net>
>
>Thanks Paul for the suggestions. I went through the same process when
>selecting a tractor for use with my property and selected a great
>bargain tractor that is a brute, but requires me to do more of my own
>maintenance than something like a John Deere. I enjoy it, but also am
>looking to get into the air quickly with my own airplane.
>
>I really do want to build, but do not want to wait, or rent an airplane
>at this point.
>
>Right now, my mindset is to buy and then start building slowly while I
>fly.
>
>Jim!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>PAULROD36@msn.com
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
>
>I would suggest that you examine your motives and expectations of
>flying. If you just want to fly, and are willing to have someone else
>do the maintenance, repairs and modifications to your plane, then by
all
>means buy something ready built. If you get almost as much joy out of
>doing things with your hands, and seeing the results of your skill (in
>my case lack of it), and want to save a few bucks along the way, then
>look again at building your own. I don't knock those who prefer to pull
>it out, fly, put it back, and have somebody else do the mechanikin'.
>Been there, done that. They are having fun with what they do, and it's
>right for them. It's what keeps Cessna, Beech, et al, in business.
>This is one of those cases of "different strokes for different folks",
>and there is no right, or wrong, answer. Maybe the better answer is to
>buy a 150, build a 601, sell the 150, (probably for more than you paid)
>and have the best of both worlds.
>
>Paul Rodriguez
>601XL/Corvair
>Gear legs goin' on
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Will I fit in a 601? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
A good question for all of you 601 pilots and builders. I am 6'-2+" and
245 pounds. I am not fat, but I am a big, "football" type of guy,
larger upper body. My middle is about average for that height. My
torso is longer than normal and my legs are shorter than normal, (for
that size).
How would I fit in a 601 and what adjustments can I make when building
one to increase the comfort factor?
Jim!
Message 19
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| Subject: | Source of Materials |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
I went to McKinsey Steel in Fort Lauderdale this
morning and they have 6061-T6 as special order. Their
sales representative told me that the metal thickness
and 6061-T6 is printed in the material but not the
mill number or name.
Is this something of concern?
Should I buy first a small sheet (2x2 or 2x4) and
compare it to the ones I have from Alcoa bought at ACS
or should I make the plunge and buy several ones?
For those interested they do shipping to other states
and to Latin America and here is their web site
www.mckinseysteel.com
William Dominguez
Miami, Florida
601XL, Hopefully a Corvair if not, a Jabiru 3300
.001% done, doing stabilizer ribs
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: [ Johann G. Johannsson ] : New Email List Photo Share |
Availa...
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Elwood140@aol.com
Johann, the airplane is beautiful! The logo on the tail makes me chuckle
each time I think of it. Best wishes for a long and happy time with your
"Joeing".
Larry Wood
Do Not Archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Space needed for complete 701 Kit |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: grusha <grusha@velocitus.net>
Zenith is shipping my kit next week. I got the complete kit and they said
to expect an 800+ lb. crate. Since the plane only weighs 600 lbs or so
including the engine, there must be a bunch of weight in the crate (or
somewhere).
My questions are:
How much room will I need to unpack the crate and lay everything out to do
an inventory?
How long will the inventory take me to perform?
I have cleaned out a small 1 car garage just to store the kit parts (my
stage one workshop is in my basement, stage II will be in a double car
garage, and stage III will be at my hangar at the airport). Will the
garage be enough space to sort through the parts and then store them until
needed?
I am flying out to Oshkosh and there will only be a couple of days between
the day my kit arrives and when I must depart. So if it will take a lot of
time to unpack and inventory I may just want to shove the crate into the
garage and wait until I return from OSH.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Will I fit in a 601? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Jim,
It's likely you'd fit ok in the 601 as I'm 6'-1" at 195 lbs, long torso
shorter legs, but I'd suggest you
get into one first for fit. Then, if you build one, you can move the
forward edge of the shelf back an inch or two,
lean the seat back by that amount and you'd fit even better. There are
provisions for doing this, but you need to
be the builder to initiate the change. This is one that you shouldn't
do as a rework project on a completed plane.
Call Nick at Zenith and ask about this option. The width of the plane
isn't going to be a problem.
Good luck,
Larry
do not archive
Jim Langley wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
>
>A good question for all of you 601 pilots and builders. I am 6'-2+" and
>245 pounds. I am not fat, but I am a big, "football" type of guy,
>larger upper body. My middle is about average for that height. My
>torso is longer than normal and my legs are shorter than normal, (for
>that size).
>
>How would I fit in a 601 and what adjustments can I make when building
>one to increase the comfort factor?
>
>Jim!
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
Jim:
Can you send me your phone number. I would like to talk to you.
Jim!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Pellien
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
Jim,
I can get you a completed 601 ELSA in 2 months from the factory. We are
the
distributors for factory built Zodiac 601XL ELSA and SLSA.
The ELSA version starts at $69,900 with a Rotax 912S engine, and the
SLSA
starting price has been reduced to $74,900 with either the Continental
O-200
or the Rotax 912S engines.
If you are interested in knowing more, please go to my Mid-Atlantic
Sports
Planes website at: www.maspl.com
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Langley" <tempaddress@worldhost.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Buying a 601?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Langley"
<tempaddress@worldhost.net>
>
>
> I am dying to get into the air right away. Can you guys recommend a
> good place to look for a completed or almost completed XL?
>
> Jim!
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Space needed for complete 701 Kit |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" <barcusc@comcast.net>
I unpacked mine in a two car garage, I built 4 x 12 bench with a shelf
underneath. All of the small parts fits under the bench on the shelf, the
spars and nose skins was on the floor under the bench and the flat stock is
against the wall. Inventory took one day, some parts were missing but they
sent them to me right away. Congratulations, I know it was a real exciting
day for me.
Regards:
Clyde Barcus
601XL, Corvair Powered.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "grusha" <grusha@velocitus.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Space needed for complete 701 Kit
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: grusha <grusha@velocitus.net>
>
> Zenith is shipping my kit next week. I got the complete kit and they said
> to expect an 800+ lb. crate. Since the plane only weighs 600 lbs or so
> including the engine, there must be a bunch of weight in the crate (or
> somewhere).
>
> My questions are:
> How much room will I need to unpack the crate and lay everything out to do
> an inventory?
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: liability - but by degrees |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> So tell us, how did you rationalize the
> Zenith demand for signing a waiver? Yes for kit but
> no for engine?
Easy answer, as far as I'm concerned. The airframe kit
is nothing but chunks of metal and hardware -- very
easy to spot if something isn't right. As the builder,
we're forming the parts, cutting, assembling, etc. The
only trust we have to place in Zenith (or any other
manufacturer) is that the design itself is sound.
But in the case of a completed engine -- NOT the same
thing. Lots of parts and internal compnents that can
be wrong if it's not put together properly. Since we
aren't building the engine, we don't have the
opportunity to make sure the parts look ok, and that
everything fits together. That is the job of the
engine manufacturer, and not something the builder has
any control over.
So, as I see it, that's the difference. Having said
all of that, I chose to go ahead and buy the thing
anyway. Not the most rational decision to do so and
sign that stupid waiver, but again -- there's really
not much choice if we want to "play".
Mike Fortunato
do not archive
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Space needed for complete 701 Kit |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> Hey grusha, I am going to Oshkosh too. Will be glad
> to share experiences with you. I usually hang around
> the Classic barn with my fellow EAA'ers at 1 pm and
> 4:30 pm or I if I am at the Heintz booth... See you
> there. Bob Sceppa <rjscep@tahoo.com>
--- grusha <grusha@velocitus.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: grusha
> <grusha@velocitus.net>
>
> Zenith is shipping my kit next week. I got the
> complete kit and they said
> to expect an 800+ lb. crate. Since the plane only
> weighs 600 lbs or so
> including the engine, there must be a bunch of
> weight in the crate (or
> somewhere).
>
> My questions are:
> How much room will I need to unpack the crate and
> lay everything out to do
> an inventory?
>
> How long will the inventory take me to perform?
>
> I have cleaned out a small 1 car garage just to
> store the kit parts (my
> stage one workshop is in my basement, stage II will
> be in a double car
> garage, and stage III will be at my hangar at the
> airport). Will the
> garage be enough space to sort through the parts and
> then store them until
> needed?
>
> I am flying out to Oshkosh and there will only be a
> couple of days between
> the day my kit arrives and when I must depart. So
> if it will take a lot of
> time to unpack and inventory I may just want to
> shove the crate into the
> garage and wait until I return from OSH.
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>I saw a Grumman AA-1-A on ebay and really liked what I saw. It seems to
>be somewhat like the 601 in appearance and performance. I think the 601
>is a little more stable though.
I have had warm feelings for the Yankee and its offspring (AA1, AA5,
Traveler, Cheetah, etc.) for a long time. Alas, I didn't like flying
them on those few opportunities I had over the years.
The biggest complaint I have is there is no nose gear steering. That
means to take off in a cross wind you have to ride the upwind brake
to keep the nose pointed down the runway.
One other problem for me now is these planes do not qualify as
LSA. That means I would have to get a medical to fly them, and I am
not willing to go through that hassle with the FAA.
Good luck,
Paul
601 XL, barely started
do not archive
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Space needed for complete 701 Kit |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Stephanak" <bstephanak@insightbb.com>
The builder at this website: http://www.zodiacxlproject.com/
has his project for sale but does have some good photos of
the delivered crate prior to unpacking as well as a write-up
concerning delivery and inventory. He also includes
pictures of how he used the packing crate as a work area.
When you get to his website, just page down past his yellow
"For Sale" box at the top of the page and then click on
"Delivery Problems" in his Logbook section. There is a good
write-up with photos.
I think this will help to answer some of your questions
about the space required.
Bob
(not even a pilot, yet, but looking closely at the XL as a
choice when the pilot certificate does come!)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
grusha
Subject: Zenith-List: Space needed for complete 701 Kit
--> Zenith-List message posted by: grusha
<grusha@velocitus.net>
Zenith is shipping my kit next week. I got the complete kit
and they said
to expect an 800+ lb. crate. Since the plane only weighs
600 lbs or so
including the engine, there must be a bunch of weight in the
crate (or
somewhere).
My questions are:
How much room will I need to unpack the crate and lay
everything out to do
an inventory?
How long will the inventory take me to perform?
I have cleaned out a small 1 car garage just to store the
kit parts (my
stage one workshop is in my basement, stage II will be in a
double car
garage, and stage III will be at my hangar at the airport).
Will the
garage be enough space to sort through the parts and then
store them until
needed?
I am flying out to Oshkosh and there will only be a couple
of days between
the day my kit arrives and when I must depart. So if it
will take a lot of
time to unpack and inventory I may just want to shove the
crate into the
garage and wait until I return from OSH.
==
==
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Jaibaru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> p.s. Say what you will, but I continue to think
> that attorneys in general are morally superior to
> real estate agents.
Oh Doug....say it isn't so. Your post was right on
until that line. :)
Mike Fortunato
Licensed Real Estate Broker, Manager, & Developer
definitely do not archive
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