Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:50 AM - Re: Wheel Pants (Larry McFarland)
2. 06:54 AM - Re: Jaibaru liability (Garrou, Douglas)
3. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Jaibaru liability (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 10:03 AM - Re: Jabiru liability (Gary Gower)
5. 10:41 AM - Re: Jabiru liability (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
6. 11:38 AM - Re: Jabiru liability (Paul Mulwitz)
7. 01:38 PM - Re: Jabiru liability (Kent Brown)
8. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: Jaibaru liability (Frank Roskind)
9. 04:33 PM - Engine for my 601 XL? (Don Mountain)
10. 05:17 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 05:30 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Pete Krotje)
12. 05:51 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Paul Mulwitz)
13. 05:55 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Craig Payne)
14. 05:57 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Larry McFarland)
15. 07:04 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Brett)
16. 08:01 PM - help ordering hardware (kevinbonds)
17. 08:49 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Mike Fortunato)
18. 08:50 PM - Re: help ordering hardware (Mike Fortunato)
19. 09:17 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (n801bh@netzero.com)
20. 10:00 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Brandon Tucker)
21. 10:43 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Craig Payne)
22. 11:04 PM - Sun n Fun DVD (Jon Croke)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Mark,
I found the standard bracket for the ZAC wheel fairings were
unsatisfactory for the job and made another
type which worked well. See links.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/wheelfairings/full/fairingbrkt.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/wheelfairings/full/fairingbrktnpant.gif
I also made another set of wheel fairings that are a foot shorter than
ZACs standard, but these brackets would work
for either one.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601frontleftwpants.gif
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>Does anyone have pictures of the wheel pant bracket attachment for the
>standard installation from ZAC. This is for the HD HDS model
>
>Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
>Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751
>President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter
>www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Jaibaru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Frank:
Unfortunately we're moving from wholesale hypothetical observations to retail non-hypothetical
advice here, and retail is a problem -- I'm not admitted to practice
in Oregon (neighboring Washington State I have covered, surprisingly enough).
The regulators can get surprisingly ruffled about such things.
So, I think you'll need to consult an Oregon lawyer and ask for the most effective
liability waiver s/he can muster, which should not be a particularly expensive
proposition (try to negotiate a flat fee for this work up front). Sometimes
those western states have pretty good liability waiver law, since they are
the home of rafting, mountain climbing, etc.
Then you'll need to achieve Zen acceptance of the fact that the kids on the schoolbus
will always be able to sue you anyway. :)
You might also investigate whether you can be added as a named insured on the buyer's
aviation liability policy. Just for laughs, it might also be interesting
to see if any of the aviation insurers will give you "sold products" coverage,
i.e., coverage against a claims for personal injuries allegedly due to faulty
workmanship, etc. I doubt such coverage exists, but who knows?
Note that this is lawful out-of-state insurance advice, not unlawful out-of-state
legal advice.... I think.....
And no flames from me, Steve's ideas don't seem crazy. A few observations, though:
Ask your Oregon lawyer, but I suspect the spouse is the only other person
you would really need to sign a waiver (ala Zenith). You'll probably have a
hard time finding a mechanic who will give a blanket signoff on the quality of
construction, but you never know. And you might want to skip the "intentional
acts of negligence" language, since strictly speaking that's kind of contradictory.
Best of luck and enjoy vapor-lock-less retirement,
Doug
please do not archive, they may track me down. I was never here.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Jaibaru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Doug?...Doug who?...:)
Out of interest what is your hypothetical position on those standard
waiver forms you can download off the web for $10...Seem to be state
specific.
Maybe print one up and take it to my new Lawyer friend for an edit
perhaps?
Cheers
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou,
Douglas
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jaibaru liability
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
--> <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Frank:
Unfortunately we're moving from wholesale hypothetical observations to
retail non-hypothetical advice here, and retail is a problem -- I'm not
admitted to practice in Oregon (neighboring Washington State I have
covered, surprisingly enough).
The regulators can get surprisingly ruffled about such things.
So, I think you'll need to consult an Oregon lawyer and ask for the most
effective liability waiver s/he can muster, which should not be a
particularly expensive proposition (try to negotiate a flat fee for this
work up front). Sometimes those western states have pretty good
liability waiver law, since they are the home of rafting, mountain
climbing, etc.
Then you'll need to achieve Zen acceptance of the fact that the kids on
the schoolbus will always be able to sue you anyway. :)
You might also investigate whether you can be added as a named insured
on the buyer's aviation liability policy. Just for laughs, it might
also be interesting to see if any of the aviation insurers will give you
"sold products" coverage, i.e., coverage against a claims for personal
injuries allegedly due to faulty workmanship, etc. I doubt such
coverage exists, but who knows?
Note that this is lawful out-of-state insurance advice, not unlawful
out-of-state legal advice.... I think.....
And no flames from me, Steve's ideas don't seem crazy. A few
observations, though: Ask your Oregon lawyer, but I suspect the spouse
is the only other person you would really need to sign a waiver (ala
Zenith). You'll probably have a hard time finding a mechanic who will
give a blanket signoff on the quality of construction, but you never
know. And you might want to skip the "intentional acts of negligence"
language, since strictly speaking that's kind of contradictory.
Best of luck and enjoy vapor-lock-less retirement, Doug please do not
archive, they may track me down. I was never here.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hi Steve and Frank,
We all know is hard to sell this type of toys (aka, homebuilt airplanes), is worldwide...
Non Aviation Wifes prefer to buy "something else" or "less dangerous, see the
news" etc...
Some countries dont have this type of liabilty problems, at least that way. So
is hard to understand.
With all this paperwork Steve advises, will happen to Frank what Jabiru is told
in the list not to do... The prospect buyer will think that there is "something
wrong hidden" in that airplane...
If I was forced to sign all that, at least I would think that way, even knowing
the plane is in perfect shape and that Frank is such a good builder.
Probably is easyer to find a honest Aviator (real man or women with a word) that
after signing the sale papers will shake hands and say: "Its a Deal!" and watch
him fly away with a smile in his face, hearing him comment in the Fly ins:
"No, I didnt built, was my friend Frank".
Are all the sellers of "anything" sued all the time? Or is only targets with
airplanes or "rich" people selling?. Well, we all have to live with our Countries
way...
Hope we all find good buyers when we sell our loved "Toys"...
Saludos
Gary Gower
Please do not archive.
Steve Hulland <marinegunner@gmail.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Steve Hulland
Frank,
I am not a lawyer, but her is what I would do.
1. Have buyer and all of his/her immediate heirs sign a hold harmless.
2. Have buyer pay for an additional airworthiness inspection by a
mechanic he/she chooses and pays. Have that mechanic sign something that
alludes to correct construction, etc.
3. Have buyer spend a good deal of time inspecting the airframe,
builders log, engine log, propeller log and airframe log. After a detailed
inspection of all items, have him/her sign a statement that he/she completed
a detailed and complete inspection and was satisfied with workmanship,
materials and agreed that the airplane was built according to the
manufacturer's guidelines/specifications.
4. Have buyer and/or his representative review all known AD's for
propeller, airframe and engine and inspect to ensure all have been complied
with - then sign a statement to that effect.
5. If EAA or others have a standard sellers/buyer contract, use that
one too.
6. Have heirs (not all distance ones, but the immediate ones at least)
sign an acknowledgement that they have reviewed all of the documents signed
by the buyer, understand what the buyer has agreed to and understand that
you can only be held accountable for damage that results from intentional
acts of negligence involving the airframe, propeller, engine, accessories
etc.
Then I would sell it to them and enjoy your retirement. Hell, I would
probably sell it without all of that stuff. If something happens and they
sue and I lose, Oh Well, hard to get blood from a rock and I don't have a
lot they can get.
Boy, will our academically endowed lawyer (Doug) have fun with this one.
Steve Hulland
Amado, AZ
On 7/11/05, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <
> frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Well Thanks Doug, Your article was both informative and scared me half
> to death.
>
> Now as a totally unskilled worthless lawyer who at least acedemically
> superior, could you give us all some free advice?...Acedemically seaking
> of course...:)
>
> So I'm about to sell me homebuilt plane, I have my house paid off and am
> looking at the pleasant years of financially comfortable retirement on
> the distant horizon....Namely I'm a sue magnet!
>
> Now I got this HDS I built, lets say its worth $25k and am about to sell
> it....This is not a hypothetical situation incidently.
>
> What would YOU do in MY situation, espically if you lived in Oregon??
>
> As I have banged on ad nauseum about vapour lock I thought this would be
> an opportunity to give someone else the floor for a change...:)
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank, has adversion to having his blood sucked
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou,
> Douglas
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
> -->
>
> I'm also a bloodsucker, and have even portrayed bloodsuckers in movies.
> I defend companies against antitrust class actions, so you *might*
> consider me an anti-bloodsucker, depending upon your world view. But
> then the people who sue those companies for antitrust violations think
> I'm a bloodsucker, so.... And ironically enough, I suppose the original
> poster was talking about protecting HIS right to sue -- presumably with
> a bloodsucker leading the charge -- so I suppose he is looking to ensure
> his ability to suck blood, but only if need be.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Jabiru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I did have a couple of interesting conversations about this subject
yesterday. One point made to me was that it is very rare for a seller of
a homebuilt airplane to be actually sued...or at least you don't hear of
it much. Likely chances are that builders and buyers are pretty honest
folk who tend to look out for each other as fellow pilots.
I for one could not live with myself if I sold a plane knowing something
was wrong and didn't tell the buyer...Its not worth the hassle for one
and if the buyer or his/her family got hurt....well I don't want to be
there.
The other point is if you have a well worded liability release, it is
probably less likely you will be sued because the buyer/family know the
release will come up in evidence. Knowing most lawyers work on the
assumption of risk (I work for free but take 40% of the "winnings") if
they see the release then they know it is less likely to be a winner for
them.
Even then I believe one would counter sue for legal fees, time off work
etc....Unless there is a clear case (and presumably clear precident for
winning such cases) I would presume the likelyhood of it happening would
be slim.
It would still cost money for for one or both parties in any case...My
complete guess would be the case could be made to go away for less than
the value of the airplane...And besides what else are you going to
do?...Cut it it up and dump it?
Just my thoughts..Comments?
Frank
HDS for sale soon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru liability
Hi Steve and Frank,
We all know is hard to sell this type of toys (aka, homebuilt
airplanes), is worldwide...
Non Aviation Wifes prefer to buy "something else" or "less dangerous,
see the news" etc...
Some countries dont have this type of liabilty problems, at least that
way. So is hard to understand.
With all this paperwork Steve advises, will happen to Frank what Jabiru
is told in the list not to do... The prospect buyer will think that
there is "something wrong hidden" in that airplane...
If I was forced to sign all that, at least I would think that way, even
knowing the plane is in perfect shape and that Frank is such a good
builder.
Probably is easyer to find a honest Aviator (real man or women with a
word) that after signing the sale papers will shake hands and say: "Its
a Deal!" and watch him fly away with a smile in his face, hearing him
comment in the Fly ins: "No, I didnt built, was my friend Frank".
Are all the sellers of "anything" sued all the time? Or is only
targets with airplanes or "rich" people selling?. Well, we all have
to live with our Countries way...
Hope we all find good buyers when we sell our loved "Toys"...
Saludos
Gary Gower
Please do not archive.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Jabiru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>. Likely chances are that builders and buyers are pretty honest
>folk who tend to look out for each other as fellow pilots.
>
>The other point is if you have a well worded liability release, it is
>probably less likely you will be sued
>Just my thoughts..Comments?
>
>Frank
I agree with you on the points copied above.
It may not really matter very much how valuable a release is as
evidence. If someone agrees to sign a release and they are
"Honorable" then they won't sue as a matter of personal principle.
Also, as a matter of fairness, it seems appropriate to be sure the
buyer of your plane is aware that it was built by an amateur and that
flying such a plane (or perhaps any plane) is an activity that has a
considerable amount of risk associated with it. Again, my thought
here is a reasonable person who is aware of important risk before
entering into such a deal should either decide they are willing to
assume the risk or refuse to complete the deal.
I suspect most people who bring big lawsuits against a manufacturer
feel they were cheated by receiving a product that was not as good as
advertised. In some cases that is true and the suit is perfectly
justified. I would hope the plaintiff would have to prove serious
misbehavior on the manufacturer's part in order to win a big
award. In the history of aircraft product liability suits, I think
many of the awards were won because of poor safety records and poor
designs related to fires in airplanes that could have been avoided
with a small increase in cost and weight to keep fuel under control
in the event of structural damage. Many small planes burned after a
mostly successful forced landing because the fuel load was dumped
into the hot engine. The argument here is a small valve could have
prevented release of the fuel when the damage was done. Another such
case is the one where the location of the fuel tank on a light truck
(Chevy, I think) was placed where a minor collision would certainly
cause a big fire. In that case the plaintiff established that the
manufacturer was aware of the safety issue and intentionally
concealed the problem instead of designing it out.
Of course there is no guarantee any of these thoughts will
prevail. I guess it is up to the seller to be convinced the buyer
really understands the nature of the risk involved and is the kind of
person who can and will take responsibility for his/her actions.
Paul
601 XL barely started.
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Jabiru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" <kentbrown@verizon.net>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>
> >. Likely chances are that builders and buyers are pretty honest
> >folk who tend to look out for each other as fellow pilots.
It is likely that the plaintiffs would be the buyer's surviving family after
an accident, not the buyer, and the family WILL be looking for someone to
blame.
Kent do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Jaibaru liability |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" <frankroskind@hotmail.com>
Do you want to add even more murk to the discussion and explain how
attorney's professional liability insurance typically works with claims made
versus claims occurring? Would a sold aircraft policy be based on claims
made or claims occurring? To wit, if the negligence were to occur in year
2005, and the alleged tort in 2010, would the policy for 2005 or the policy
for 2010 cover the loss?
The point is that insurance is a serious business, as is product liability,
and it would be really valuable to get pertinent legal advice from a locally
admitted attorney familiar with the relevant area of law.
A different Frank
do not archive
From: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jaibaru liability
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Frank:
Unfortunately we're moving from wholesale hypothetical observations to
retail non-hypothetical advice here, and retail is a problem -- I'm not
admitted to practice in Oregon (neighboring Washington State I have covered,
surprisingly enough).
The regulators can get surprisingly ruffled about such things.
So, I think you'll need to consult an Oregon lawyer and ask for the most
effective liability waiver s/he can muster, which should not be a
particularly expensive proposition (try to negotiate a flat fee for this
work up front). Sometimes those western states have pretty good liability
waiver law, since they are the home of rafting, mountain climbing, etc.
Then you'll need to achieve Zen acceptance of the fact that the kids on the
schoolbus will always be able to sue you anyway. :)
You might also investigate whether you can be added as a named insured on
the buyer's aviation liability policy. Just for laughs, it might also be
interesting to see if any of the aviation insurers will give you "sold
products" coverage, i.e., coverage against a claims for personal injuries
allegedly due to faulty workmanship, etc. I doubt such coverage exists, but
who knows?
Note that this is lawful out-of-state insurance advice, not unlawful
out-of-state legal advice.... I think.....
And no flames from me, Steve's ideas don't seem crazy. A few observations,
though: Ask your Oregon lawyer, but I suspect the spouse is the only other
person you would really need to sign a waiver (ala Zenith). You'll probably
have a hard time finding a mechanic who will give a blanket signoff on the
quality of construction, but you never know. And you might want to skip the
"intentional acts of negligence" language, since strictly speaking that's
kind of contradictory.
Best of luck and enjoy vapor-lock-less retirement,
Doug
please do not archive, they may track me down. I was never here.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
After reading recent posts about engines in this
forum, my ideas for what I might want powering my 601
XL is changing. Originally I was wanting something
more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper
Cherokee. Along with valve and other problems in the
car engines making them unsuitible for airplane use
(they can't take the high horsepower requirements and
dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent
defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax
engines, and all the extensive problems listed about
the total lack of warranty for the Jabiru and other
major defects and overheating, I am moving back in
favor of the Continental or Lycoming engine. (I
consider the Volkswagon and Corvair engines not
suitable for airplane use due to their poor design,
heavy weight and low horsepower) Do many of you have
experience with a Continental or Lycoming engine in
the 601 XL and what would be the problems to design
around when installing one in the XL? Does anybody
have a clear preference of these two engines? Its
apparent that Zenith is using the Lycoming in their
factory built planes, so that is an indication what
their choice is.
Don
Message 10
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hello Don,
Well I can't argue with the choice for a lyc in your 601, indeed that's
what will be going into my RV, but for different reasons.
Your statements about other engines in the 601 however are simply not
true. If you have made your decision it is not necessarily a bad one but
it does come with some penalties...Cost mainly. The car engine
conversion, as in the Subaru is a great choice for the 601, yes one
supplier had some valve guide issues but that was due to purely to
machine shops not knowing what they were doing, not the "unsuitabilty"
of the engine.
If you go with a Soob engine from Ram Performance I think you will have
a very good package. As to the Rotax I don't know much about them but
their reputation for a reliable engine is superb...Unless I have had
completely in the sand for last 5 years.
Total lack of warranty from the Jabaru?...Not true again, the Jab is
fully warranted for a year I believe.
The Volks I would agree is under powered but the jury is out on the
Corvair...I think it looks to be a promissing engine.
The only reason Zenith went with the Lycoming is because there are a lot
of o235's lying around.
As I said not a bad engine till your faced with the cost to rebuild it,
beware the second hand motor that appears fine...One poor guy I know got
totally stiffed...How about $5600 for a new crank on an engine that was
"ready to fly".
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Mountain
Subject: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
After reading recent posts about engines in this forum, my ideas for
what I might want powering my 601 XL is changing. Originally I was
wanting something more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper
Cherokee. Along with valve and other problems in the car engines making
them unsuitible for airplane use (they can't take the high horsepower
requirements and dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent
defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax engines, and all
the extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for the
Jabiru and other major defects and overheating, I am moving back in
favor of the Continental or Lycoming engine. (I consider the Volkswagon
and Corvair engines not suitable for airplane use due to their poor
design, heavy weight and low horsepower) Do many of you have experience
with a Continental or Lycoming engine in the 601 XL and what would be
the problems to design around when installing one in the XL? Does
anybody have a clear preference of these two engines? Its apparent that
Zenith is using the Lycoming in their factory built planes, so that is
an indication what their choice is.
Don
Message 11
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Don,
I'm a bit amazed at your comment of " total lack of warranty... " on Jabiru
engines. You must be pretty far in the dark to think that a one year (from
delivery with the option to extend the start date so you can complete
building) complete warranty is a lack of warranty. It is better than most
all the others out there! What major defects? We certainly have not seen
any. Overheating? Overheating is always a function of fwf design. When
done properly there is no overheating.
The internet is a great place to seek info. If you had you'd see that
Lycoming, Continental, Rotax, and Jabiru all have their strengths and
weaknesses but all are fine aircraft engines that have proven themselves to
be reliable over time.
I hope you will use your resources to seek out the real issues with aircraft
engines instead of relying on some anecdotal reports.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Mountain
Subject: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
After reading recent posts about engines in this forum, my ideas for what I
might want powering my 601 XL is changing. Originally I was wanting
something more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper Cherokee.
Along with valve and other problems in the car engines making them
unsuitible for airplane use (they can't take the high horsepower
requirements and dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent
defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax engines, and all the
extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for the Jabiru
and other major defects and overheating, I am moving back in favor of the
Continental or Lycoming engine. (I consider the Volkswagon and Corvair
engines not suitable for airplane use due to their poor design, heavy weight
and low horsepower) Do many of you have experience with a Continental or
Lycoming engine in the 601 XL and what would be the problems to design
around when installing one in the XL? Does anybody have a clear preference
of these two engines? Its apparent that Zenith is using the Lycoming in
their factory built planes, so that is an indication what their choice is.
Don
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> Along with valve and other problems in the
>car engines making them unsuitible for airplane use
>(they can't take the high horsepower requirements and
>dissapate the heat from the head),
>extensive problems listed about
>the total lack of warranty for the Jabiru and other
>major defects and overheating,
Its apparent that Zenith is using the Lycoming in their
>factory built planes, so that is an indication what
>their choice is.
>
>Don
Since I am planning on buying a Jabiru 3300 in a year or so, this
message caused me some concern.
On the Jabiru Warranty issue, I sent an email to Jabiru USA for
clarification. If I get a response I will post the information to
this list. I presume a $15,000 purchase comes with some sort of
guarantee that the parts will be delivered and work for a while.
I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an
airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never
designed to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of
time since this is not the way they are used in automobiles. My
current understanding is that the only reason one would consider
using such an engine in an airplane is to save the cost of a real
aircraft engine. I would love to hear conflicting opinions on this subject.
After several months of confusion, I think I understand enough to
comment on the statement that Zenith is using Lycoming engines in
their factory built.planes. This statement has a number of problems.
First, Zenith Aircraft of Mexico, MO doesn't build airplanes. They
have no intention to do so. They are in the business of selling
plans and kits to mostly US customers. We will never be able to buy
a factory built airplane from this company.
Another company, Czech Aircraft Works (I hope I got the name close)
is producing factory built planes from Heintz designs. This is one
source, perhaps the only one, where Sportsplanes.com will get their
factory built planes. In one case, a CH601XL with Continental engine
is scheduled for delivery to a flight school in California some time
in August. I do not know of any plans for any factory any where to
build this plane using Lycoming engines.
After all this discussion of engine choices, I am glad I will not be
ready to buy one for my plane for at least a year. Perhaps by that
time it will be clear to me which engine choice is the best one for me.
Paul
601 XL, barely started.
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
A few other point: Zenith flys a Jabiru 3300 in the 601 XL factory demo.
Also the Corvair is far more than promising having been flown in many
aircraft for hundreds of hours including at least one in an XL.
-- Craig
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Hello Don,
>
> Well I can't argue with the choice for a lyc in your 601, indeed that's
> what will be going into my RV, but for different reasons.
>
> Your statements about other engines in the 601 however are simply not
> true. If you have made your decision it is not necessarily a bad one but
> it does come with some penalties...Cost mainly. The car engine
> conversion, as in the Subaru is a great choice for the 601, yes one
> supplier had some valve guide issues but that was due to purely to
> machine shops not knowing what they were doing, not the "unsuitabilty"
> of the engine.
>
> If you go with a Soob engine from Ram Performance I think you will have
> a very good package. As to the Rotax I don't know much about them but
> their reputation for a reliable engine is superb...Unless I have had
> completely in the sand for last 5 years.
>
> Total lack of warranty from the Jabaru?...Not true again, the Jab is
> fully warranted for a year I believe.
>
> The Volks I would agree is under powered but the jury is out on the
> Corvair...I think it looks to be a promissing engine.
>
> The only reason Zenith went with the Lycoming is because there are a lot
> of o235's lying around.
>
> As I said not a bad engine till your faced with the cost to rebuild it,
> beware the second hand motor that appears fine...One poor guy I know got
> totally stiffed...How about $5600 for a new crank on an engine that was
> "ready to fly".
>
> Frank
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
> Mountain
> To: Zenith
> Subject: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL?
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> After reading recent posts about engines in this forum, my ideas for
> what I might want powering my 601 XL is changing. Originally I was
> wanting something more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper
> Cherokee. Along with valve and other problems in the car engines making
> them unsuitible for airplane use (they can't take the high horsepower
> requirements and dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent
> defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax engines, and all
> the extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for the
> Jabiru and other major defects and overheating, I am moving back in
> favor of the Continental or Lycoming engine. (I consider the Volkswagon
> and Corvair engines not suitable for airplane use due to their poor
> design, heavy weight and low horsepower) Do many of you have experience
> with a Continental or Lycoming engine in the 601 XL and what would be
> the problems to design around when installing one in the XL? Does
> anybody have a clear preference of these two engines? Its apparent that
> Zenith is using the Lycoming in their factory built planes, so that is
> an indication what their choice is.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Don,
You've been taking too much from the Matronics archives to make such
arbitrary decisions.
There has been a lot of success with the Jabaru 3300 engine and
performance wise it's the
current leader of the pack. Jabaru has been very responsible to every
engine purchaser/owner
to the extent that the users of the Jabaru are a very satisfied bunch.
The Corvair is really a splended engine if you want reliably good
performance and economy in
the product conversions by William Winn.
I fly a Stratus Subaru and it took a little research to get comfortable
with the product and it can
be a very reliable engine if approached correctly. I have no
temperature problems as many other
Subaru owners can attest and it has an economy that is difficult to beat.
What I'm getting at is this. There is a really large user base of the
above aircraft engines and they are
giving their owner/operators a really good time for the dollar.
Everything you read about in the
archives will relate to problems and solutions. Most have found their
way to solutions that work
and I'd for one hate to see you buying a Lyc or a Continental just
because you've read the complaint
column. This represents an extreme minority of issues, some common,
some not. Check out the
engines and the insurance rates for each on a 601 and you'll have a
better handle on what's working.
Zenith will recommend the Jabaru, the Rotax and the Corvair and have
nice words to say about Lyc
and Continental as well because they are found here too. They also have
their problems.
The choice is still yours, but just don't get your shorts in a bunch
over the emotionalism of some of the archives.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Don Mountain wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
>After reading recent posts about engines in this
>forum, my ideas for what I might want powering my 601
>XL is changing. Originally I was wanting something
>more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper
>Cherokee. Along with valve and other problems in the
>car engines making them unsuitible for airplane use
>(they can't take the high horsepower requirements and
>dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent
>defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax
>engines, and all the extensive problems listed about
>the total lack of warranty for the Jabiru and other
>major defects and overheating, I am moving back in
>favor of the Continental or Lycoming engine. (I
>consider the Volkswagon and Corvair engines not
>suitable for airplane use due to their poor design,
>heavy weight and low horsepower) Do many of you have
>experience with a Continental or Lycoming engine in
>the 601 XL and what would be the problems to design
>around when installing one in the XL? Does anybody
>have a clear preference of these two engines? Its
>apparent that Zenith is using the Lycoming in their
>factory built planes, so that is an indication what
>their choice is.
>
>Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " <brett@hog-air.com>
Don
You keep talking about heavy weight. You do know that the Lycoming and
Conti. are heavyer than the Rotax and most of the engines you talked about.
do not archive
Thanks
Brett Ray
www.hog-air.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | help ordering hardware |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Can someone help me with a recommendation for a substitute for Nutplate
MS21075L3 as called for in my CH601XL plans? Aircraft spruce does not seem
to have this part. Not sure if it is an all metal or elastic insert
nutplate. Looks like the thread size is 10-32 as evident from the screw size
to fit (AN525-10R7). Could I sub MF5000-3 (size 10-32) or AN366-1032A (also
10-32)? Also the plans regularly call for a specific bolt and washer but do
not give the appropriate nut. Is it safe to assume a normal fiber insert nut
is fine (except of course on moving parts)?
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
<http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> all the extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for > the
Jabiru
Don, I feel a duty to clarify something relating to the Jabiru warranty issue,
since you may be reading some of my posts in the archives. My original concern
was the liability waiver that Jabiru demands you sign in order to buy their engine.
From there, the discussion branched off into many tangents -- one of which
has to do with the warranty. Now, to be clear (as mud), the waiver does state
that no warranty exists, but that is being countered by Jabiru USA that the
engine does indeed carry a one year warranty. Those are the facts as I know
them -- just wanted to be sure none of my posts were misinterpreted.
You should also know that in spite of my concern, I elected to go with the Jabiru,
for reasons I already wrote about. Feel free to contact me off list if you
want to discuss engine choices further.
Mike Fortunato
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: help ordering hardware |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
I ordered mine from Wick's Aircraft Supply (they have the correct part numbers
that ZAC uses, or at least they did when I had to order more).
Mike Fortunato
601XL
kevinbonds <kevinbonds@comcast.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds"
Can someone help me with a recommendation for a substitute for Nutplate
MS21075L3 as called for in my CH601XL plans?
---------------------------------
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an
airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never
designed to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of
time since this is not the way they are used in automobiles. My
current understanding is that the only reason one would consider
using such an engine in an airplane is to save the cost of a real
aircraft engine. I would love to hear conflicting opinions on this subject.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Ok,,, Where do you want to start the discussion??????
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Don,
Wow! Intentionally or not, you managed to piss
in about 95% of the list member's cheerios with that
post.
First, the issue of late with Jabiru has nothing
to do with their warranty. It was simply a discussion
about the waiver you are forced to sign before
delivery. It sucks, but living and flying as a
commercial pilot for a tour company in California
(litigation capital of the world) waivers are
essential for a small business' survival in aviation.
Rotax has had several AD's issued over the years,
requiring some modifications / repairs, but their
safety record speaks very well for the engine. I am
not sure where you got the idea that the Rotax was
heavy, but it is the lightest of the bunch that you
mentioned, unless you are talking about the Jabiru
2200, which is about the same.
The Subaru has had some cooling issues in some
601 installations, but as Larry mentioned, he had none
whatsoever. His excellent workmanship no doubt
contributed to his success. Frank will talk your ear
off about valve guides, (and vapor lock, for that
matter) and has flown dozens of hours safely behind
his Subaru. As a community, we pretty much worked
that issue out.
The VW has had some cranks break. We can't get
out of that one, but the ones that I have learned
about were the result of trying to cut some costs in
the conversion. I agree with you that it is a little
underpowered for the XL, but they have been installed
in HD's and HDS's.
The Corvair has been gaining considerable steam
within the Zodie ranks. So far, there have been zero
issues with the Corvair in a Zodie if converted in
accordance with the WW conversion manual.
I fly behind Lycomings every day and if I could
afford it, I would install one in a heartbeat. If you
have the means to buy (and maintain) it, get a 235 and
be done with it. Keep in mind that it is the heaviest
option though.
R/
Brandon
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
And Man was not designed to fly. Yet some of us persist in doing it.
-- Craig
n801bh@netzero.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
>
>
> I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an
> airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never
> designed to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of
> time since this is not the way they are used in automobiles. My
> current understanding is that the only reason one would consider
> using such an engine in an airplane is to save the cost of a real
> aircraft engine. I would love to hear conflicting opinions on this subject.
>
> //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
>
> Ok,,, Where do you want to start the discussion??????
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Ben Haas
> N801BH
> www.haaspowerair.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
If you never had a chance to attend the Florida Sun n Fun airshow and wondered
what you were missing..... I have the ticket for you!
Have just finished a video compilation of my experiences at the show this last
spring, and created a DVD titled: "No Takeoff from Taxiway"
All details, including lots of pictures from the video can be found at www.HomebuiltHELP.com
If you are attending the Zenith Dinner at OSH, do NOT purchase this DVD -- as
I will be handing them out for free at that event!
See you there!
Jon
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