---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/12/05: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:50 AM - Re: Wheel Pants (Larry McFarland) 2. 06:54 AM - Re: Jaibaru liability (Garrou, Douglas) 3. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Jaibaru liability (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 4. 10:03 AM - Re: Jabiru liability (Gary Gower) 5. 10:41 AM - Re: Jabiru liability (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 6. 11:38 AM - Re: Jabiru liability (Paul Mulwitz) 7. 01:38 PM - Re: Jabiru liability (Kent Brown) 8. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: Jaibaru liability (Frank Roskind) 9. 04:33 PM - Engine for my 601 XL? (Don Mountain) 10. 05:17 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 05:30 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Pete Krotje) 12. 05:51 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Paul Mulwitz) 13. 05:55 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Craig Payne) 14. 05:57 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Larry McFarland) 15. 07:04 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Brett) 16. 08:01 PM - help ordering hardware (kevinbonds) 17. 08:49 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Mike Fortunato) 18. 08:50 PM - Re: help ordering hardware (Mike Fortunato) 19. 09:17 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (n801bh@netzero.com) 20. 10:00 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Brandon Tucker) 21. 10:43 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Craig Payne) 22. 11:04 PM - Sun n Fun DVD (Jon Croke) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:15 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wheel Pants --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Mark, I found the standard bracket for the ZAC wheel fairings were unsatisfactory for the job and made another type which worked well. See links. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/wheelfairings/full/fairingbrkt.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/wheelfairings/full/fairingbrktnpant.gif I also made another set of wheel fairings that are a foot shorter than ZACs standard, but these brackets would work for either one. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601frontleftwpants.gif Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > >Does anyone have pictures of the wheel pant bracket attachment for the >standard installation from ZAC. This is for the HD HDS model > >Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario >Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751 >President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter >www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com >do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:04 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jaibaru liability From: "Garrou, Douglas" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" Frank: Unfortunately we're moving from wholesale hypothetical observations to retail non-hypothetical advice here, and retail is a problem -- I'm not admitted to practice in Oregon (neighboring Washington State I have covered, surprisingly enough). The regulators can get surprisingly ruffled about such things. So, I think you'll need to consult an Oregon lawyer and ask for the most effective liability waiver s/he can muster, which should not be a particularly expensive proposition (try to negotiate a flat fee for this work up front). Sometimes those western states have pretty good liability waiver law, since they are the home of rafting, mountain climbing, etc. Then you'll need to achieve Zen acceptance of the fact that the kids on the schoolbus will always be able to sue you anyway. :) You might also investigate whether you can be added as a named insured on the buyer's aviation liability policy. Just for laughs, it might also be interesting to see if any of the aviation insurers will give you "sold products" coverage, i.e., coverage against a claims for personal injuries allegedly due to faulty workmanship, etc. I doubt such coverage exists, but who knows? Note that this is lawful out-of-state insurance advice, not unlawful out-of-state legal advice.... I think..... And no flames from me, Steve's ideas don't seem crazy. A few observations, though: Ask your Oregon lawyer, but I suspect the spouse is the only other person you would really need to sign a waiver (ala Zenith). You'll probably have a hard time finding a mechanic who will give a blanket signoff on the quality of construction, but you never know. And you might want to skip the "intentional acts of negligence" language, since strictly speaking that's kind of contradictory. Best of luck and enjoy vapor-lock-less retirement, Doug please do not archive, they may track me down. I was never here. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Jaibaru liability From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Doug?...Doug who?...:) Out of interest what is your hypothetical position on those standard waiver forms you can download off the web for $10...Seem to be state specific. Maybe print one up and take it to my new Lawyer friend for an edit perhaps? Cheers Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou, Douglas Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jaibaru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" --> Frank: Unfortunately we're moving from wholesale hypothetical observations to retail non-hypothetical advice here, and retail is a problem -- I'm not admitted to practice in Oregon (neighboring Washington State I have covered, surprisingly enough). The regulators can get surprisingly ruffled about such things. So, I think you'll need to consult an Oregon lawyer and ask for the most effective liability waiver s/he can muster, which should not be a particularly expensive proposition (try to negotiate a flat fee for this work up front). Sometimes those western states have pretty good liability waiver law, since they are the home of rafting, mountain climbing, etc. Then you'll need to achieve Zen acceptance of the fact that the kids on the schoolbus will always be able to sue you anyway. :) You might also investigate whether you can be added as a named insured on the buyer's aviation liability policy. Just for laughs, it might also be interesting to see if any of the aviation insurers will give you "sold products" coverage, i.e., coverage against a claims for personal injuries allegedly due to faulty workmanship, etc. I doubt such coverage exists, but who knows? Note that this is lawful out-of-state insurance advice, not unlawful out-of-state legal advice.... I think..... And no flames from me, Steve's ideas don't seem crazy. A few observations, though: Ask your Oregon lawyer, but I suspect the spouse is the only other person you would really need to sign a waiver (ala Zenith). You'll probably have a hard time finding a mechanic who will give a blanket signoff on the quality of construction, but you never know. And you might want to skip the "intentional acts of negligence" language, since strictly speaking that's kind of contradictory. Best of luck and enjoy vapor-lock-less retirement, Doug please do not archive, they may track me down. I was never here. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:16 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hi Steve and Frank, We all know is hard to sell this type of toys (aka, homebuilt airplanes), is worldwide... Non Aviation Wifes prefer to buy "something else" or "less dangerous, see the news" etc... Some countries dont have this type of liabilty problems, at least that way. So is hard to understand. With all this paperwork Steve advises, will happen to Frank what Jabiru is told in the list not to do... The prospect buyer will think that there is "something wrong hidden" in that airplane... If I was forced to sign all that, at least I would think that way, even knowing the plane is in perfect shape and that Frank is such a good builder. Probably is easyer to find a honest Aviator (real man or women with a word) that after signing the sale papers will shake hands and say: "Its a Deal!" and watch him fly away with a smile in his face, hearing him comment in the Fly ins: "No, I didnt built, was my friend Frank". Are all the sellers of "anything" sued all the time? Or is only targets with airplanes or "rich" people selling?. Well, we all have to live with our Countries way... Hope we all find good buyers when we sell our loved "Toys"... Saludos Gary Gower Please do not archive. Steve Hulland wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Steve Hulland Frank, I am not a lawyer, but her is what I would do. 1. Have buyer and all of his/her immediate heirs sign a hold harmless. 2. Have buyer pay for an additional airworthiness inspection by a mechanic he/she chooses and pays. Have that mechanic sign something that alludes to correct construction, etc. 3. Have buyer spend a good deal of time inspecting the airframe, builders log, engine log, propeller log and airframe log. After a detailed inspection of all items, have him/her sign a statement that he/she completed a detailed and complete inspection and was satisfied with workmanship, materials and agreed that the airplane was built according to the manufacturer's guidelines/specifications. 4. Have buyer and/or his representative review all known AD's for propeller, airframe and engine and inspect to ensure all have been complied with - then sign a statement to that effect. 5. If EAA or others have a standard sellers/buyer contract, use that one too. 6. Have heirs (not all distance ones, but the immediate ones at least) sign an acknowledgement that they have reviewed all of the documents signed by the buyer, understand what the buyer has agreed to and understand that you can only be held accountable for damage that results from intentional acts of negligence involving the airframe, propeller, engine, accessories etc. Then I would sell it to them and enjoy your retirement. Hell, I would probably sell it without all of that stuff. If something happens and they sue and I lose, Oh Well, hard to get blood from a rock and I don't have a lot they can get. Boy, will our academically endowed lawyer (Doug) have fun with this one. Steve Hulland Amado, AZ On 7/11/05, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" < > frank.hinde@hp.com> > > Well Thanks Doug, Your article was both informative and scared me half > to death. > > Now as a totally unskilled worthless lawyer who at least acedemically > superior, could you give us all some free advice?...Acedemically seaking > of course...:) > > So I'm about to sell me homebuilt plane, I have my house paid off and am > looking at the pleasant years of financially comfortable retirement on > the distant horizon....Namely I'm a sue magnet! > > Now I got this HDS I built, lets say its worth $25k and am about to sell > it....This is not a hypothetical situation incidently. > > What would YOU do in MY situation, espically if you lived in Oregon?? > > As I have banged on ad nauseum about vapour lock I thought this would be > an opportunity to give someone else the floor for a change...:) > > Thanks > > Frank, has adversion to having his blood sucked > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garrou, > Douglas > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jaibaru liability > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" > --> > > I'm also a bloodsucker, and have even portrayed bloodsuckers in movies. > I defend companies against antitrust class actions, so you *might* > consider me an anti-bloodsucker, depending upon your world view. But > then the people who sue those companies for antitrust violations think > I'm a bloodsucker, so.... And ironically enough, I suppose the original > poster was talking about protecting HIS right to sue -- presumably with > a bloodsucker leading the charge -- so I suppose he is looking to ensure > his ability to suck blood, but only if need be. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru liability From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I did have a couple of interesting conversations about this subject yesterday. One point made to me was that it is very rare for a seller of a homebuilt airplane to be actually sued...or at least you don't hear of it much. Likely chances are that builders and buyers are pretty honest folk who tend to look out for each other as fellow pilots. I for one could not live with myself if I sold a plane knowing something was wrong and didn't tell the buyer...Its not worth the hassle for one and if the buyer or his/her family got hurt....well I don't want to be there. The other point is if you have a well worded liability release, it is probably less likely you will be sued because the buyer/family know the release will come up in evidence. Knowing most lawyers work on the assumption of risk (I work for free but take 40% of the "winnings") if they see the release then they know it is less likely to be a winner for them. Even then I believe one would counter sue for legal fees, time off work etc....Unless there is a clear case (and presumably clear precident for winning such cases) I would presume the likelyhood of it happening would be slim. It would still cost money for for one or both parties in any case...My complete guess would be the case could be made to go away for less than the value of the airplane...And besides what else are you going to do?...Cut it it up and dump it? Just my thoughts..Comments? Frank HDS for sale soon -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru liability Hi Steve and Frank, We all know is hard to sell this type of toys (aka, homebuilt airplanes), is worldwide... Non Aviation Wifes prefer to buy "something else" or "less dangerous, see the news" etc... Some countries dont have this type of liabilty problems, at least that way. So is hard to understand. With all this paperwork Steve advises, will happen to Frank what Jabiru is told in the list not to do... The prospect buyer will think that there is "something wrong hidden" in that airplane... If I was forced to sign all that, at least I would think that way, even knowing the plane is in perfect shape and that Frank is such a good builder. Probably is easyer to find a honest Aviator (real man or women with a word) that after signing the sale papers will shake hands and say: "Its a Deal!" and watch him fly away with a smile in his face, hearing him comment in the Fly ins: "No, I didnt built, was my friend Frank". Are all the sellers of "anything" sued all the time? Or is only targets with airplanes or "rich" people selling?. Well, we all have to live with our Countries way... Hope we all find good buyers when we sell our loved "Toys"... Saludos Gary Gower Please do not archive. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:44 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >. Likely chances are that builders and buyers are pretty honest >folk who tend to look out for each other as fellow pilots. > >The other point is if you have a well worded liability release, it is >probably less likely you will be sued >Just my thoughts..Comments? > >Frank I agree with you on the points copied above. It may not really matter very much how valuable a release is as evidence. If someone agrees to sign a release and they are "Honorable" then they won't sue as a matter of personal principle. Also, as a matter of fairness, it seems appropriate to be sure the buyer of your plane is aware that it was built by an amateur and that flying such a plane (or perhaps any plane) is an activity that has a considerable amount of risk associated with it. Again, my thought here is a reasonable person who is aware of important risk before entering into such a deal should either decide they are willing to assume the risk or refuse to complete the deal. I suspect most people who bring big lawsuits against a manufacturer feel they were cheated by receiving a product that was not as good as advertised. In some cases that is true and the suit is perfectly justified. I would hope the plaintiff would have to prove serious misbehavior on the manufacturer's part in order to win a big award. In the history of aircraft product liability suits, I think many of the awards were won because of poor safety records and poor designs related to fires in airplanes that could have been avoided with a small increase in cost and weight to keep fuel under control in the event of structural damage. Many small planes burned after a mostly successful forced landing because the fuel load was dumped into the hot engine. The argument here is a small valve could have prevented release of the fuel when the damage was done. Another such case is the one where the location of the fuel tank on a light truck (Chevy, I think) was placed where a minor collision would certainly cause a big fire. In that case the plaintiff established that the manufacturer was aware of the safety issue and intentionally concealed the problem instead of designing it out. Of course there is no guarantee any of these thoughts will prevail. I guess it is up to the seller to be convinced the buyer really understands the nature of the risk involved and is the kind of person who can and will take responsibility for his/her actions. Paul 601 XL barely started. do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:09 PM PST US From: "Kent Brown" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > > >. Likely chances are that builders and buyers are pretty honest > >folk who tend to look out for each other as fellow pilots. It is likely that the plaintiffs would be the buyer's surviving family after an accident, not the buyer, and the family WILL be looking for someone to blame. Kent do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:25 PM PST US From: "Frank Roskind" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Jaibaru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" Do you want to add even more murk to the discussion and explain how attorney's professional liability insurance typically works with claims made versus claims occurring? Would a sold aircraft policy be based on claims made or claims occurring? To wit, if the negligence were to occur in year 2005, and the alleged tort in 2010, would the policy for 2005 or the policy for 2010 cover the loss? The point is that insurance is a serious business, as is product liability, and it would be really valuable to get pertinent legal advice from a locally admitted attorney familiar with the relevant area of law. A different Frank do not archive From: "Garrou, Douglas" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jaibaru liability --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" Frank: Unfortunately we're moving from wholesale hypothetical observations to retail non-hypothetical advice here, and retail is a problem -- I'm not admitted to practice in Oregon (neighboring Washington State I have covered, surprisingly enough). The regulators can get surprisingly ruffled about such things. So, I think you'll need to consult an Oregon lawyer and ask for the most effective liability waiver s/he can muster, which should not be a particularly expensive proposition (try to negotiate a flat fee for this work up front). Sometimes those western states have pretty good liability waiver law, since they are the home of rafting, mountain climbing, etc. Then you'll need to achieve Zen acceptance of the fact that the kids on the schoolbus will always be able to sue you anyway. :) You might also investigate whether you can be added as a named insured on the buyer's aviation liability policy. Just for laughs, it might also be interesting to see if any of the aviation insurers will give you "sold products" coverage, i.e., coverage against a claims for personal injuries allegedly due to faulty workmanship, etc. I doubt such coverage exists, but who knows? Note that this is lawful out-of-state insurance advice, not unlawful out-of-state legal advice.... I think..... And no flames from me, Steve's ideas don't seem crazy. A few observations, though: Ask your Oregon lawyer, but I suspect the spouse is the only other person you would really need to sign a waiver (ala Zenith). You'll probably have a hard time finding a mechanic who will give a blanket signoff on the quality of construction, but you never know. And you might want to skip the "intentional acts of negligence" language, since strictly speaking that's kind of contradictory. Best of luck and enjoy vapor-lock-less retirement, Doug please do not archive, they may track me down. I was never here. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:41 PM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain After reading recent posts about engines in this forum, my ideas for what I might want powering my 601 XL is changing. Originally I was wanting something more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper Cherokee. Along with valve and other problems in the car engines making them unsuitible for airplane use (they can't take the high horsepower requirements and dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax engines, and all the extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for the Jabiru and other major defects and overheating, I am moving back in favor of the Continental or Lycoming engine. (I consider the Volkswagon and Corvair engines not suitable for airplane use due to their poor design, heavy weight and low horsepower) Do many of you have experience with a Continental or Lycoming engine in the 601 XL and what would be the problems to design around when installing one in the XL? Does anybody have a clear preference of these two engines? Its apparent that Zenith is using the Lycoming in their factory built planes, so that is an indication what their choice is. Don ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:53 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hello Don, Well I can't argue with the choice for a lyc in your 601, indeed that's what will be going into my RV, but for different reasons. Your statements about other engines in the 601 however are simply not true. If you have made your decision it is not necessarily a bad one but it does come with some penalties...Cost mainly. The car engine conversion, as in the Subaru is a great choice for the 601, yes one supplier had some valve guide issues but that was due to purely to machine shops not knowing what they were doing, not the "unsuitabilty" of the engine. If you go with a Soob engine from Ram Performance I think you will have a very good package. As to the Rotax I don't know much about them but their reputation for a reliable engine is superb...Unless I have had completely in the sand for last 5 years. Total lack of warranty from the Jabaru?...Not true again, the Jab is fully warranted for a year I believe. The Volks I would agree is under powered but the jury is out on the Corvair...I think it looks to be a promissing engine. The only reason Zenith went with the Lycoming is because there are a lot of o235's lying around. As I said not a bad engine till your faced with the cost to rebuild it, beware the second hand motor that appears fine...One poor guy I know got totally stiffed...How about $5600 for a new crank on an engine that was "ready to fly". Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain After reading recent posts about engines in this forum, my ideas for what I might want powering my 601 XL is changing. Originally I was wanting something more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper Cherokee. Along with valve and other problems in the car engines making them unsuitible for airplane use (they can't take the high horsepower requirements and dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax engines, and all the extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for the Jabiru and other major defects and overheating, I am moving back in favor of the Continental or Lycoming engine. (I consider the Volkswagon and Corvair engines not suitable for airplane use due to their poor design, heavy weight and low horsepower) Do many of you have experience with a Continental or Lycoming engine in the 601 XL and what would be the problems to design around when installing one in the XL? Does anybody have a clear preference of these two engines? Its apparent that Zenith is using the Lycoming in their factory built planes, so that is an indication what their choice is. Don ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:54 PM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" Don, I'm a bit amazed at your comment of " total lack of warranty... " on Jabiru engines. You must be pretty far in the dark to think that a one year (from delivery with the option to extend the start date so you can complete building) complete warranty is a lack of warranty. It is better than most all the others out there! What major defects? We certainly have not seen any. Overheating? Overheating is always a function of fwf design. When done properly there is no overheating. The internet is a great place to seek info. If you had you'd see that Lycoming, Continental, Rotax, and Jabiru all have their strengths and weaknesses but all are fine aircraft engines that have proven themselves to be reliable over time. I hope you will use your resources to seek out the real issues with aircraft engines instead of relying on some anecdotal reports. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain After reading recent posts about engines in this forum, my ideas for what I might want powering my 601 XL is changing. Originally I was wanting something more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper Cherokee. Along with valve and other problems in the car engines making them unsuitible for airplane use (they can't take the high horsepower requirements and dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax engines, and all the extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for the Jabiru and other major defects and overheating, I am moving back in favor of the Continental or Lycoming engine. (I consider the Volkswagon and Corvair engines not suitable for airplane use due to their poor design, heavy weight and low horsepower) Do many of you have experience with a Continental or Lycoming engine in the 601 XL and what would be the problems to design around when installing one in the XL? Does anybody have a clear preference of these two engines? Its apparent that Zenith is using the Lycoming in their factory built planes, so that is an indication what their choice is. Don ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:50 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > Along with valve and other problems in the >car engines making them unsuitible for airplane use >(they can't take the high horsepower requirements and >dissapate the heat from the head), >extensive problems listed about >the total lack of warranty for the Jabiru and other >major defects and overheating, Its apparent that Zenith is using the Lycoming in their >factory built planes, so that is an indication what >their choice is. > >Don Since I am planning on buying a Jabiru 3300 in a year or so, this message caused me some concern. On the Jabiru Warranty issue, I sent an email to Jabiru USA for clarification. If I get a response I will post the information to this list. I presume a $15,000 purchase comes with some sort of guarantee that the parts will be delivered and work for a while. I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never designed to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of time since this is not the way they are used in automobiles. My current understanding is that the only reason one would consider using such an engine in an airplane is to save the cost of a real aircraft engine. I would love to hear conflicting opinions on this subject. After several months of confusion, I think I understand enough to comment on the statement that Zenith is using Lycoming engines in their factory built.planes. This statement has a number of problems. First, Zenith Aircraft of Mexico, MO doesn't build airplanes. They have no intention to do so. They are in the business of selling plans and kits to mostly US customers. We will never be able to buy a factory built airplane from this company. Another company, Czech Aircraft Works (I hope I got the name close) is producing factory built planes from Heintz designs. This is one source, perhaps the only one, where Sportsplanes.com will get their factory built planes. In one case, a CH601XL with Continental engine is scheduled for delivery to a flight school in California some time in August. I do not know of any plans for any factory any where to build this plane using Lycoming engines. After all this discussion of engine choices, I am glad I will not be ready to buy one for my plane for at least a year. Perhaps by that time it will be clear to me which engine choice is the best one for me. Paul 601 XL, barely started. > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:25 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne A few other point: Zenith flys a Jabiru 3300 in the 601 XL factory demo. Also the Corvair is far more than promising having been flown in many aircraft for hundreds of hours including at least one in an XL. -- Craig Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > Hello Don, > > Well I can't argue with the choice for a lyc in your 601, indeed that's > what will be going into my RV, but for different reasons. > > Your statements about other engines in the 601 however are simply not > true. If you have made your decision it is not necessarily a bad one but > it does come with some penalties...Cost mainly. The car engine > conversion, as in the Subaru is a great choice for the 601, yes one > supplier had some valve guide issues but that was due to purely to > machine shops not knowing what they were doing, not the "unsuitabilty" > of the engine. > > If you go with a Soob engine from Ram Performance I think you will have > a very good package. As to the Rotax I don't know much about them but > their reputation for a reliable engine is superb...Unless I have had > completely in the sand for last 5 years. > > Total lack of warranty from the Jabaru?...Not true again, the Jab is > fully warranted for a year I believe. > > The Volks I would agree is under powered but the jury is out on the > Corvair...I think it looks to be a promissing engine. > > The only reason Zenith went with the Lycoming is because there are a lot > of o235's lying around. > > As I said not a bad engine till your faced with the cost to rebuild it, > beware the second hand motor that appears fine...One poor guy I know got > totally stiffed...How about $5600 for a new crank on an engine that was > "ready to fly". > > Frank > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don > Mountain > To: Zenith > Subject: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain > > After reading recent posts about engines in this forum, my ideas for > what I might want powering my 601 XL is changing. Originally I was > wanting something more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper > Cherokee. Along with valve and other problems in the car engines making > them unsuitible for airplane use (they can't take the high horsepower > requirements and dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent > defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax engines, and all > the extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for the > Jabiru and other major defects and overheating, I am moving back in > favor of the Continental or Lycoming engine. (I consider the Volkswagon > and Corvair engines not suitable for airplane use due to their poor > design, heavy weight and low horsepower) Do many of you have experience > with a Continental or Lycoming engine in the 601 XL and what would be > the problems to design around when installing one in the XL? Does > anybody have a clear preference of these two engines? Its apparent that > Zenith is using the Lycoming in their factory built planes, so that is > an indication what their choice is. > > Don > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:43 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Don, You've been taking too much from the Matronics archives to make such arbitrary decisions. There has been a lot of success with the Jabaru 3300 engine and performance wise it's the current leader of the pack. Jabaru has been very responsible to every engine purchaser/owner to the extent that the users of the Jabaru are a very satisfied bunch. The Corvair is really a splended engine if you want reliably good performance and economy in the product conversions by William Winn. I fly a Stratus Subaru and it took a little research to get comfortable with the product and it can be a very reliable engine if approached correctly. I have no temperature problems as many other Subaru owners can attest and it has an economy that is difficult to beat. What I'm getting at is this. There is a really large user base of the above aircraft engines and they are giving their owner/operators a really good time for the dollar. Everything you read about in the archives will relate to problems and solutions. Most have found their way to solutions that work and I'd for one hate to see you buying a Lyc or a Continental just because you've read the complaint column. This represents an extreme minority of issues, some common, some not. Check out the engines and the insurance rates for each on a 601 and you'll have a better handle on what's working. Zenith will recommend the Jabaru, the Rotax and the Corvair and have nice words to say about Lyc and Continental as well because they are found here too. They also have their problems. The choice is still yours, but just don't get your shorts in a bunch over the emotionalism of some of the archives. Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Don Mountain wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain > >After reading recent posts about engines in this >forum, my ideas for what I might want powering my 601 >XL is changing. Originally I was wanting something >more modern than the old design Lycoming in my Piper >Cherokee. Along with valve and other problems in the >car engines making them unsuitible for airplane use >(they can't take the high horsepower requirements and >dissapate the heat from the head), and the apparent >defects, short lifespan and heavy weight of the Rotax >engines, and all the extensive problems listed about >the total lack of warranty for the Jabiru and other >major defects and overheating, I am moving back in >favor of the Continental or Lycoming engine. (I >consider the Volkswagon and Corvair engines not >suitable for airplane use due to their poor design, >heavy weight and low horsepower) Do many of you have >experience with a Continental or Lycoming engine in >the 601 XL and what would be the problems to design >around when installing one in the XL? Does anybody >have a clear preference of these two engines? Its >apparent that Zenith is using the Lycoming in their >factory built planes, so that is an indication what >their choice is. > >Don > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:25 PM PST US From: "Brett " Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " Don You keep talking about heavy weight. You do know that the Lycoming and Conti. are heavyer than the Rotax and most of the engines you talked about. do not archive Thanks Brett Ray www.hog-air.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:01 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: Zenith-List: help ordering hardware --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Can someone help me with a recommendation for a substitute for Nutplate MS21075L3 as called for in my CH601XL plans? Aircraft spruce does not seem to have this part. Not sure if it is an all metal or elastic insert nutplate. Looks like the thread size is 10-32 as evident from the screw size to fit (AN525-10R7). Could I sub MF5000-3 (size 10-32) or AN366-1032A (also 10-32)? Also the plans regularly call for a specific bolt and washer but do not give the appropriate nut. Is it safe to assume a normal fiber insert nut is fine (except of course on moving parts)? Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:50 PM PST US From: Mike Fortunato Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > all the extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for > the Jabiru Don, I feel a duty to clarify something relating to the Jabiru warranty issue, since you may be reading some of my posts in the archives. My original concern was the liability waiver that Jabiru demands you sign in order to buy their engine. From there, the discussion branched off into many tangents -- one of which has to do with the warranty. Now, to be clear (as mud), the waiver does state that no warranty exists, but that is being countered by Jabiru USA that the engine does indeed carry a one year warranty. Those are the facts as I know them -- just wanted to be sure none of my posts were misinterpreted. You should also know that in spite of my concern, I elected to go with the Jabiru, for reasons I already wrote about. Feel free to contact me off list if you want to discuss engine choices further. Mike Fortunato ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:41 PM PST US From: Mike Fortunato Subject: Re: Zenith-List: help ordering hardware --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato I ordered mine from Wick's Aircraft Supply (they have the correct part numbers that ZAC uses, or at least they did when I had to order more). Mike Fortunato 601XL kevinbonds wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Can someone help me with a recommendation for a substitute for Nutplate MS21075L3 as called for in my CH601XL plans? --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:52 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never designed to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of time since this is not the way they are used in automobiles. My current understanding is that the only reason one would consider using such an engine in an airplane is to save the cost of a real aircraft engine. I would love to hear conflicting opinions on this subject. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Ok,,, Where do you want to start the discussion?????? do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:21 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Don, Wow! Intentionally or not, you managed to piss in about 95% of the list member's cheerios with that post. First, the issue of late with Jabiru has nothing to do with their warranty. It was simply a discussion about the waiver you are forced to sign before delivery. It sucks, but living and flying as a commercial pilot for a tour company in California (litigation capital of the world) waivers are essential for a small business' survival in aviation. Rotax has had several AD's issued over the years, requiring some modifications / repairs, but their safety record speaks very well for the engine. I am not sure where you got the idea that the Rotax was heavy, but it is the lightest of the bunch that you mentioned, unless you are talking about the Jabiru 2200, which is about the same. The Subaru has had some cooling issues in some 601 installations, but as Larry mentioned, he had none whatsoever. His excellent workmanship no doubt contributed to his success. Frank will talk your ear off about valve guides, (and vapor lock, for that matter) and has flown dozens of hours safely behind his Subaru. As a community, we pretty much worked that issue out. The VW has had some cranks break. We can't get out of that one, but the ones that I have learned about were the result of trying to cut some costs in the conversion. I agree with you that it is a little underpowered for the XL, but they have been installed in HD's and HDS's. The Corvair has been gaining considerable steam within the Zodie ranks. So far, there have been zero issues with the Corvair in a Zodie if converted in accordance with the WW conversion manual. I fly behind Lycomings every day and if I could afford it, I would install one in a heartbeat. If you have the means to buy (and maintain) it, get a 235 and be done with it. Keep in mind that it is the heaviest option though. R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:24 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne And Man was not designed to fly. Yet some of us persist in doing it. -- Craig n801bh@netzero.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" > > > I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an > airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never > designed to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of > time since this is not the way they are used in automobiles. My > current understanding is that the only reason one would consider > using such an engine in an airplane is to save the cost of a real > aircraft engine. I would love to hear conflicting opinions on this subject. > > ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > Ok,,, Where do you want to start the discussion?????? > > do not archive > > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:57 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Zenith-List: Sun n Fun DVD --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" If you never had a chance to attend the Florida Sun n Fun airshow and wondered what you were missing..... I have the ticket for you! Have just finished a video compilation of my experiences at the show this last spring, and created a DVD titled: "No Takeoff from Taxiway" All details, including lots of pictures from the video can be found at www.HomebuiltHELP.com If you are attending the Zenith Dinner at OSH, do NOT purchase this DVD -- as I will be handing them out for free at that event! See you there! Jon