---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/13/05: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:45 AM - Re: help ordering hardware (Hunt Malcolm) 2. 04:06 AM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (LSA's and certified planes) (Frank Roskind) 3. 05:42 AM - Re:Center stick counterbalance (ron dewees) 4. 06:12 AM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Pete Krotje) 5. 06:28 AM - converted automotive engines (Russell J.) 6. 06:37 AM - Re: help ordering hardware (Larry McFarland) 7. 06:57 AM - Re: Re:Center stick counterbalance (Larry McFarland) 8. 06:57 AM - Re: Re:Center stick counterbalance (N5SL) 9. 07:17 AM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 10. 07:20 AM - 601HD on Amphibs (Zodie Rocket) 11. 07:41 AM - Re: 601HD on Amphibs (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 12. 09:28 AM - Re: Re:Center stick counterbalance (Leo Gates) 13. 10:26 AM - Re: Re:Center stick counterbalance (Leo Corbalis) 14. 12:28 PM - Engine crate handling (Bill Steer) 15. 12:48 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 16. 12:55 PM - PRICE REDUCTION - 601XL ELSA (jim) 17. 01:00 PM - Re: PRICE REDUCTION - 601XL ELSA (jim) 18. 01:07 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Paul Mulwitz) 19. 01:32 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Bryan Martin) 20. 01:43 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (Bryan Martin) 21. 01:48 PM - Re: Re:Center stick counterbalance (Thilo Kind) 22. 01:55 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Thilo Kind) 23. 02:01 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (Beckman, Rick) 24. 02:05 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (Phil Maxson) 25. 02:15 PM - Re:Engine crate handling (ruruny@aol.com) 26. 02:27 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (Larry McFarland) 27. 02:52 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 28. 03:18 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 29. 03:30 PM - Five CH601 sightings in the one day! (royt.or@netzero.com) 30. 04:26 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (Bill Steer) 31. 04:31 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (Robert Schoenberger) 32. 04:35 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 33. 04:56 PM - OSH (was 5 sightings) (Lance Gingell) 34. 05:37 PM - Re: Five CH601 sightings in the one day! (Jeff Davidson) 35. 07:10 PM - 601 nosegear stop/rudder centering device (Bob Miller) 36. 07:59 PM - Re: 601 nosegear stop/rudder centering device (Trevor Page) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: help ordering hardware From: "Hunt Malcolm" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hunt Malcolm" On a similar topic can any one advise of the manufacturer of the CW5-12 rod end bearing called up on the plans? The Aurora MW-5 looks similar but is not certified. Malcolm Hunt CH601XL Plans Builder England Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Fortunato Subject: Re: Zenith-List: help ordering hardware --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato I ordered mine from Wick's Aircraft Supply (they have the correct part numbers that ZAC uses, or at least they did when I had to order more). Mike Fortunato 601XL kevinbonds wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Can someone help me with a recommendation for a substitute for Nutplate MS21075L3 as called for in my CH601XL plans? --------------------------------- Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external to Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended recipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mistake please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any copies from your system. Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the senders own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:20 AM PST US From: "Frank Roskind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? (LSA's and certified planes) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Roskind" Mr. Heintz's designs are numerous, and he has several ventures. New, certified aircraft, and some SLSA's are produced by Aircraft Manufacturing and Development www.newplane.com. The Alarus, a certified aircraft which has an airframe more like the CH 640, has a Lycoming O 235 and two seats. AMD is apparently also producing a Zodiac XL SLSA with a Continental O-200. It appears that Czech Aircraft Works is producing an SLSA version of the Zodiac XL with the Rotax 912S, 100 hp, as well as a Zodiac XL ELSA with a Rotax 912S. These appear to be for sale at www.sportsplanes.com . There appear to be some similar activities involving the CH701 series aircraft, but not with Lycoming or Continental engines. Zenair of Canada makes kits for the four seat CH640, www.zenair.com , as opposed to Zenith Air of Missouri, which makes kits for the Zodiac, 701 and 801 at www.zenithair.com . Frank R. ... After several months of confusion, I think I understand enough to comment on the statement that Zenith is using Lycoming engines in their factory built.planes. This statement has a number of problems. First, Zenith Aircraft of Mexico, MO doesn't build airplanes. They have no intention to do so. They are in the business of selling plans and kits to mostly US customers. We will never be able to buy a factory built airplane from this company. Another company, Czech Aircraft Works (I hope I got the name close) is producing factory built planes from Heintz designs. This is one source, perhaps the only one, where Sportsplanes.com will get their factory built planes. In one case, a CH601XL with Continental engine is scheduled for delivery to a flight school in California some time in August. I do not know of any plans for any factory any where to build this plane using Lycoming engines. ... Paul 601 XL, barely started. > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:13 AM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Center stick counterbalance --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hi lurkers and drivers. I'm about to climb the walls with messages about liability so I thought I would throw out a question about actually flying the 601 rather than making it safe from lawyers. My 601HDS has a standard center Y stick setup and it flies just fine that way. My gripe is that on the ground the elevator isn't gravity or spring loaded and the weight of the elevator pulls on the cables and jams the Y stick firmly forward into the full down position. Has anyone thought about, or set up a bungee or spring counter balance for the stick so that the hands-off position of the stick is somewhere near neutral? I'm not suggesting any sort of in flight trim system, as the MAC electric servo works just fine. It's just for the static position of the stick. Several of my switches and controls are right in front of the fully deflected "down" stick position and take a beating if the elevator bounces much. Thanks for ideas or links Ron ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:49 AM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" Mike, One othe point of clarification in the release vs warranty issue. The release is strictly from Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC., not Jabiru Aircraft Pty, LTD who is the manufacturer. The release says that no warranty is offered but the release only refers to Jabiru USA. It has no impact on the engine warranty that Jabiru Australia supplies with each engine. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Fortunato Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > all the extensive problems listed about the total lack of warranty for > > the Jabiru Don, I feel a duty to clarify something relating to the Jabiru warranty issue, since you may be reading some of my posts in the archives. My original concern was the liability waiver that Jabiru demands you sign in order to buy their engine. From there, the discussion branched off into many tangents -- one of which has to do with the warranty. Now, to be clear (as mud), the waiver does state that no warranty exists, but that is being countered by Jabiru USA that the engine does indeed carry a one year warranty. Those are the facts as I know them -- just wanted to be sure none of my posts were misinterpreted. You should also know that in spite of my concern, I elected to go with the Jabiru, for reasons I already wrote about. Feel free to contact me off list if you want to discuss engine choices further. Mike Fortunato ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:00 AM PST US From: "Russell J." Subject: Zenith-List: converted automotive engines --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Russell J." > I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an > airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never > designed to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of > time since this is not the way they are used in automobiles. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ When I was running irrigation systems, two of them were using 413 Chrysler V-8's. The only modification were hardened valve seats, sodium filled valves, and a set of murphy gauges. The engines were connected to a gear head that drove the pump turbine. These engines operated under full load at 2400 RPM, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for two months at a time. The only time they were shut down was once a week to change oil and check the plugs. A few times with two of us working at it, we could change oil and plugs without shutting the engine off. So, yes, an automotive engine can be modified to withstand the same continuous load that an aircraft engine sees! Russell Johnson 601-HDS DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:23 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: help ordering hardware --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Kevin, Wicks Aircraft 1-800-221-9425 has the part called out listed their part number MS21075-3 and it is not a nylon locking nut. This is high temp locking, allows shift for misaligned engagement of the threads. For use of a substitute, call Nick at Zenith to get the correct answer. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive kevinbonds wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" > >Can someone help me with a recommendation for a substitute for Nutplate >MS21075L3 as called for in my CH601XL plans? Aircraft spruce does not seem >to have this part. Not sure if it is an all metal or elastic insert >nutplate. Looks like the thread size is 10-32 as evident from the screw size >to fit (AN525-10R7). Could I sub MF5000-3 (size 10-32) or AN366-1032A (also >10-32)? Also the plans regularly call for a specific bolt and washer but do >not give the appropriate nut. Is it safe to assume a normal fiber insert nut >is fine (except of course on moving parts)? > > >Kevin Bonds > >Nashville TN > >601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > >Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > >do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:20 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Center stick counterbalance --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Ron, If you don't have a boot or a retaining ring around the stick, perhaps the control stick goes closer to the panel but mine has at least 2-1/2" clearance even without the GPS mount on the stick. I'd be tempted to remove the stick and bend it so that it doesn't touch the panel or put a stop in place that would prevent this. See links for comparative images. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/seatvelcroin.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/GPSmount2.gif Wish I could give you a better answer for contact with the panel. Perhaps you have your panel closer than plans? Larry McFarland - 601HDS ron dewees wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees > > > Several of my switches and controls are right in front of >the fully deflected "down" stick position and take a beating if the >elevator bounces much. > > Thanks for ideas or links >Ron > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:56 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Center stick counterbalance --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Thank you Ron for bringing some sanity back to the list! Have you tried a strap and a hook to hold the yoke up? I had considered putting a spring under my rear fairing on the horiz. stab, but was severely chastised for this idea by list members when I brought it up. I still don't understand why this would not work. I also toyed around with the idea of using a friction lock similar to a camera tripod leg clamp - just lock it in place in any position. Right now I have to lift up my elevator to crawl under it a lot (running out of space in the garage) so I may play around with some ideas and let you know what I come up with. Please keep me posted on what you end up trying. I've seen your work and know you are a clever guy. I'm sure you will come up with a good solution. Take care, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hi lurkers and drivers. I'm about to climb the walls with messages about liability so I thought I would throw out a question about actually flying the 601 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:51 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Cost is definatly the driving force behind an auto engine. Lets face it "proper" aircraft engines cost an outrageous amount of money, not just to buy but the rebuild cost is almost as much as a new engine. Auto engine have a few other advantages... Water cooling means (in theory) longer engine life, no shock cooling. Picking parts up from Autozone for almost no money is a real pleasure for me...:) Oil and the oil is dirt cheap...Ashless dispersant runs close to $4 a quart! The "not designed to run continuously at high RPM" argument is simply bogus...I had a motorcycle that sat at close to 8000RPM all day long, no problem. A more accurate argument may be Lycoming crankshafts were a poor design trying to stand up to the punishment of exremly high torque applied by very large pistons.....Note the problems with Lyc crankshafts breaking! Now I'm not Lycoming bashing..I am currently installing one in an RV...Air cooling means a little less drag. Not too relavent a 100mph but significant at 200mph+ (drag being proportional to speed squared). Cooling them evenly looks to be a real chore to get right with the baffling. Before anyone mentions it...Lycs will run very happily on autofuel. So there you go, both paths can be excellent choices. Frank Subaru, 360 happy flying hours after the teething troubles were fixed...:) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" --> I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never designed to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of time since this is not the way they are used in automobiles. My current understanding is that the only reason one would consider using such an engine in an airplane is to save the cost of a real aircraft engine. I would love to hear conflicting opinions on this subject. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Ok,,, Where do you want to start the discussion?????? do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:20 AM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD on Amphibs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Hi Folks Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. Has been requested by the widow to sell C-FXZI which is a 1996 CH601HD with a Rotax 914 Turbo and sitting on Zenith Aircraft Amphibs. Some of you may already know this plane as it has made several appearances in the Zenith booth at Oshkosh as well as being in Zenith promotional materials over the years. More information will be available later this evening on the Can-Zac website. We are helping the widow without profit so please for those who know the family contact us directly for details. The plane can be viewed on the welcome page of www.ch601.org or in many of the Zenith picture archives. Thanks folks it is not our intention to ever advertise here but were trying to help another person out , not make any money. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:08 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HD on Amphibs From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" We are more than happy to see Zentih's for sale on this list and applaude you for helping someone out like this. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zodie Rocket Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD on Amphibs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Hi Folks Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. Has been requested by the widow to sell C-FXZI which is a 1996 CH601HD with a Rotax 914 Turbo and sitting on Zenith Aircraft Amphibs. Some of you may already know this plane as it has made several appearances in the Zenith booth at Oshkosh as well as being in Zenith promotional materials over the years. More information will be available later this evening on the Can-Zac website. We are helping the widow without profit so please for those who know the family contact us directly for details. The plane can be viewed on the welcome page of www.ch601.org or in many of the Zenith picture archives. Thanks folks it is not our intention to ever advertise here but were trying to help another person out , not make any money. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:09 AM PST US From: "Leo Gates" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Center stick counterbalance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Gates" When needed, I throw the sholder harness over the stick to hold it back. No added weight, stuff to get in the way, etc. Leo Gates N601Z -------Original Message------- From: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Center stick counterbalance --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees My 601HDS has a standard center Y stick setup and it flies just fine that way. My gripe is that on the ground the elevator isn't gravity or spring loaded and the weight of the elevator pulls on the cables and jams the Y stick firmly forward into the full down position. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:12 AM PST US From: "Leo Corbalis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Center stick counterbalance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis" I have a small "L" fitting at the front edge of the shelf, actually it was the pivot for the support rod on my sied opening canopy which I replaced with a front hinged one. I use a medium bungee cord to hold the stick back as a control lock. I have tried a bungee holding the stick full forward but found that strong wind from the wrong direction could waltz the tail around on its tie down chain. 601 HDS TD. Spring loading the elevator cables will make you a REAL TEST PILOT !!! Leo Corbalis > Right now I have to lift up my elevator to crawl under it a lot (running > out of space in the garage) so I may play around with some ideas and let > you know what I come up with. Please keep me posted on what you end up > trying. I've seen your work and know you are a clever guy. I'm sure you > will come up with a good solution. > > Take care, > > Scott Laughlin > www.cooknwithgas.com > > Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees > > Hi lurkers and drivers. I'm about to climb the walls with messages > about liability so I thought I would throw out a question about actually > flying the 601 > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:25 PM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" My Stratus engine is about to arrive and I'm now faced with figuring out how to get a 260 pound crate off the delivery truck and into my garage without killing anyone or breaking anything. How have other folks handled this? The truck driver claims they can't deliver it with a lift gate truck. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:58 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" 260??....I went to pick mine up and it was bolted to a crate that my instructor and I manhandled into the back of a C172. Yours will have a box on it of course but I'm not sure if it will be that much heavier. How about picking up the motor from the local truck dock...They can forklift it onto your truck/trailer and you can take the crate apart when you get home. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Steer Subject: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" My Stratus engine is about to arrive and I'm now faced with figuring out how to get a 260 pound crate off the delivery truck and into my garage without killing anyone or breaking anything. How have other folks handled this? The truck driver claims they can't deliver it with a lift gate truck. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:16 PM PST US From: "jim" Subject: Zenith-List: PRICE REDUCTION - 601XL ELSA --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" The President of SportsPlanes.com just announced today that the next 10 sales of the ELSA version of the 601XL will have a reduced price of only $59,900. This price reduction is aimed at generating quick sales during the AirVenture Air Show. Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 jim@sportsplanes.com Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:41 PM PST US From: "jim" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: PRICE REDUCTION - 601XL ELSA 3.40 ADVANCE_FEE_1 Appears to be advance fee fraud (Nigerian 419) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" Sorry, I forgot to add in the cost for reaasembly of the aircraft after shipping from the Czech Republic, an additional $1,260 bringing the grand total for the ELSA to $61,250 Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes www.MASPL.com 703-313-4818 jim@sportsplanes.com ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "jim" >The President of SportsPlanes.com just announced today that the next 10 sales of the ELSA version of the 601XL will have a reduced price of only $59,900. This price reduction is aimed at generating quick sales during the AirVenture Air Show. > >Jim Pellien >Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes >www.MASPL.com >703-313-4818 >jim@sportsplanes.com > > >________________________________________________________________ >Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT > > > > > Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:05 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >On the Jabiru Warranty issue, I sent an email to Jabiru USA for >clarification I received a response from Jabiru including a copy of their warranty. It is a one year warranty covering parts and labor in their shop but not labor or shipping necessary to get defective parts to their shop. This seems pretty normal to me. After several off-list communications and the ones everyone received, I am generally convinced auto-based engines can be a fine choice for Zodiac power. It seems the primary trade-off is cost for purpose built aircraft engines vs. weight and time to convert and install auto based engines. I guess I remain convinced the Jabiru 3300 is the best choice for my plane. Paul 601 XL, barely started. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin The fact that auto engines do not normally run continuously at WOT in an automobile does NOT mean that they were not designed to do so. I've read a description of the torture tests that new automotive engine designs are put through by at least one manufacturer and they include long period of WOT operation and many other tests that are at least as extreme as the certification testing of an aircraft engine, probably more extreme. You might find a description of new engine testing in the Rec.avation.homebuilt Usenet archives. Many marine gasoline engines are basically auto engine designs with minor modifications for marine use and these engines routinely run at high throttle settings for long periods of time while cruising on the water. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. on 7/13/05 10:17 AM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at frank.hinde@hp.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > > The "not designed to run continuously at high RPM" argument is simply > bogus...I had a motorcycle that sat at close to 8000RPM all day long, no > problem. > > > Frank > Subaru, 360 happy flying hours after the teething troubles were > fixed...:) > > -----Original Message----- >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" >> --> >> >> >> I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an >> airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never designed >> to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of time since this >> is not the way they are used in automobiles. My current understanding >> is that the only reason one would consider using such an engine in an >> airplane is to save the cost of a real aircraft engine. I would love to >> hear conflicting opinions on this subject. >> >> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >> >> >> Ok,,, Where do you want to start the discussion?????? >> >> do not archive >> >> >> Ben Haas >> N801BH >> www.haaspowerair.com >> ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin You could stack a few wooden pallets behind the truck and ease it down onto them from the truck. Used wooden pallets are readily available and many places would be happy to have you take them off their hands. The crate the engine comes in is fairly compact and not very awkward to handle for two or three people. You could probably manhandle it off the truck without too much trouble with a little help. In fact I've found it's easier to handle than a typical washing machine, the wooden crate offers a better grip than the slippery steel surfaces of the washer. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" > > My Stratus engine is about to arrive and I'm now faced with figuring out how > to get a 260 pound crate off the delivery truck and into my garage without > killing anyone or breaking anything. How have other folks handled this? > The truck driver claims they can't deliver it with a lift gate truck. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:23 PM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Center stick counterbalance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Ron, why would you do this? I think, it is okay as it is. Thilo Kind ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron dewees" Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Center stick counterbalance > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees > > > Hi lurkers and drivers. I'm about to climb the walls with messages > about liability so I thought I would throw out a question about actually > flying the 601 rather than making it safe from lawyers. > My 601HDS has a standard center Y stick setup and it flies just fine > that way. My gripe is that on the ground the elevator isn't gravity or > spring loaded and the weight of the elevator pulls on the cables and > jams the Y stick firmly forward into the full down position. Has > anyone thought about, or set up a bungee or spring counter balance for > the stick so that the hands-off position of the stick is somewhere near > neutral? I'm not suggesting any sort of in flight trim system, as the > MAC electric servo works just fine. It's just for the static position > of the stick. Several of my switches and controls are right in front of > the fully deflected "down" stick position and take a beating if the > elevator bounces much. > > Thanks for ideas or links > Ron > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:13 PM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Hi Ben, I believe, that this is pure myth. Typical large seize US engines, which run in the 2,000 RPM range might have this problem. However, most overseas engine are much smaller in terms of cubic. Thus, they need to rev much higher in order to produce enough power. I'm currently driving an Audi A$ with a 1.8 l (!!!) engine. This car barely revs below 3,000. Most times - on the Autobahn - it runs between 5,000 and 6,000 RPM (equals > 120 mph = faster than my 601 HDS). No problems with the engine for years. Best regards Thilo Kind ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" > > > I agree with Don on the question of using an automobile engine in an > airplane. As far as I can determine, these engines were never > designed to operate at wide open throttle (WOT) for any length of > time since this is not the way they are used in automobiles. My > current understanding is that the only reason one would consider > using such an engine in an airplane is to save the cost of a real > aircraft engine. I would love to hear conflicting opinions on this subject. > > ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > Ok,,, Where do you want to start the discussion?????? > > do not archive > > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:49 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling From: "Beckman, Rick" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Beckman, Rick" My Stratus engine is about to arrive and I'm now faced with figuring out how to get a 260 pound crate off the delivery truck and into my garage without killing anyone or breaking anything. How have other folks handled this? The truck driver claims they can't deliver it with a lift gate truck. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Bill, I used a 2X6 and got it under the crate ( the crates usually have a couple of runners to keep it elevated ) and balanced it. Make sure the board is at least 8' long and the incline is not too steep. Then just slide the thing down the "ramp" and use a dolly to get it on inside. Worked great for me! Good luck and God Bless!! Rick Do not archive, please. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:14 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" That's what I did for my kit crates. You can even rent a truck by the hour from Home Depot or Lowes if you don't have one. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey >From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >How about picking up the motor from the local truck dock...They can >forklift it onto your truck/trailer and you can take the crate apart >when you get home. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:44 PM PST US From: ruruny@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: ruruny@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Bill, I had the good fortune to have an engine hoist and nylon strapping with the ratchets available at the time. It worked really well, so I suppose if you could borrow or rent one it might be worth the effort. Failing that, you might have a tree, a backhoe or a dump truck that you could extend an arm from to lower the box. A come-along cable ratchet can be made to do some interesting things. The other thing is a ramp, made from plywood and 2 x 4s, or any other kind of structurals available. You could even get a pickup truck behind the semi bed and put a ramp into it so it couldn't slide forward further and let the rear of the ramp down (2 persons) with a 2 x 4 across the end. This would reduce the first stage of lowering by 2 feet or more. Let us know what you decide to do and how it worked. Good luck, Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Bill Steer wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" > >My Stratus engine is about to arrive and I'm now faced with figuring out how >to get a 260 pound crate off the delivery truck and into my garage without >killing anyone or breaking anything. How have other folks handled this? >The truck driver claims they can't deliver it with a lift gate truck. > >Any suggestions would be appreciated. > >Regards, >Bill > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:07 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I really don't buy the fact it weighs 260lbs ...just sounds too heavy for two of us to lift it fairly easily...It was a few years back mind. I would get two friends and use the piece of 2*8 and slide the crate down method...Use one guy on each side with a rope and lower the beast down the "slide" with you to position the dolly at the bottom. Sounds emminantly doable Assuming you don't want to go pick it up from the dock in your truck. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Steer Subject: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" My Stratus engine is about to arrive and I'm now faced with figuring out how to get a 260 pound crate off the delivery truck and into my garage without killing anyone or breaking anything. How have other folks handled this? The truck driver claims they can't deliver it with a lift gate truck. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:26 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Bill, perhaps you and another fellow could pick it up and carry it to where your going to install it and then set it down. Just a thought, Bill ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:23 PM PST US From: "royt.or@netzero.com" Subject: Zenith-List: Five CH601 sightings in the one day! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "royt.or@netzero.com" Five CH601 sightings in the one day: I flew N601RT from Hillsboro to Lake California to visit with Lance and his wife during the July 4th holiday weekend. Saturday morning, 7/1/05, we walked past Lances CH601XL (#1) and then flew N601RT (#2) to Orland to look at Arnie Hs completed CH601XL (#3). Next we stopped at Corning to have lunch at the EAA meeting. We ran into Bill M and Doug D who are building CH601s. After lunch we flew to Rancho Tehama to look at Bills CH601HDS TD (#4) and Dougs CH601XL (#5). I gave Bill a ride in N601RT and when we landed he was so excited he RAN into his house to get his wife and told her she needed to go for a ride also. She was very happy to get a ride in a CH601HDS. Lance has been getting some right seat time in N601RT and from the looks of things is making good progress toward flying later this year! Regards, Roy N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR equipped, 386hrs, 491 landings ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:06 PM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" I hope you're right. Maybe the trucking company had their thumb on the scale. ;-) I'll let you know after I pick it up on Friday. BTW, I'm using your "slide it down a 2 x 8" method. Thanks. Bill Do not archive > I really don't buy the fact it weighs 260lbs ...just sounds too heavy > for two of us to lift it fairly easily...It was a few years back mind. > > I would get two friends and use the piece of 2*8 and slide the crate > down method...Use one guy on each side with a rope and lower the beast > down the "slide" with you to position the dolly at the bottom. Sounds > emminantly doable > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:36 PM PST US From: "Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" I now put my crates on two mover's dollys (a square platform made up of 4 boards, padded, and with large caster wheels at each corner) with a couple of 2" x 4"'s across either end that are a couple of inches wider than the crate. Put one of these at each end of the crate. Easy to move around and one can shove crates together to save space. The dollys are available from Harbor Freight for about $20 each. Robert Schoenberger 701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > 260??....I went to pick mine up and it was bolted to a crate that my > instructor and I manhandled into the back of a C172. > > Yours will have a box on it of course but I'm not sure if it will be > that much heavier. > > How about picking up the motor from the local truck dock...They can > forklift it onto your truck/trailer and you can take the crate apart > when you get home. > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Steer > To: Zenith_list > Subject: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" > > My Stratus engine is about to arrive and I'm now faced with figuring out > how to get a 260 pound crate off the delivery truck and into my garage > without killing anyone or breaking anything. How have other folks > handled this? > The truck driver claims they can't deliver it with a lift gate truck. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > Regards, > Bill > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:02 PM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com Home Despot, er....Depot stocks movers dollies as well. . The dollys are available from Harbor Freight for about $20 each. Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT 601xl N458XL (reserved) do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: OSH (was 5 sightings) From: "Lance Gingell" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" Speaking of same day sightings (Roy, that was a *fun* day :-) Who is going to be at OSH this year? I'll be there, probably camping. Unfortunately my XL isn't quite ready yet. I'll be flying in with a neighbour in his Falco F8L. I'll be at the dinner and hopefully the Tuesday gathering. ..lance do not archive otherwise archive searchers will be bored with knowing what they missed. N601LG XL, panel/ jab fwf in progress. http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp ________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of royt.or@netzero.com Subject: Zenith-List: Five CH601 sightings in the one day! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "royt.or@netzero.com" ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:18 PM PST US From: "Jeff Davidson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Five CH601 sightings in the one day! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Davidson" Five in a day - Fantastic! Although I missed them by attending only the first stormy day of Sentimental Journey in Lock Haven, PA, it is rumored that five 601s were at the same place at the same time later in the event last month! That would be a record of some sort, I believe. Jeff D. do not archive ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:21 PM PST US From: Bob Miller Subject: Zenith-List: 601 nosegear stop/rudder centering device --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bob Miller Dear fellow makers-of-aluminum-dust, In the past there have been discussions about the Zenith metal-to-metal design of the nosegear stop/rudder centering device. People have been concerned that this design might cause excessive wear as well as excessive friction on turning [which might be a contributing factor in the sometimes-reported rudder pedal breakage]. As some recommended, I built mine with inserts made of cutting board pieces. (Probably Delrin--not as good as UHMW material, but strong enough, I think/thought, to work.) Unfortunately, the gear seems excessively difficult to turn with the rudder pedals, especially in the inflight position. I don't know how this might compare with the original design, but it is unlikely to be worse for friction. Probably either 1] the angle of the V is too sharp, and/or 2] the material of the cutting board is just not slippery enough to facilitate turning... ? Perhaps removing the plastic and using springs to center the pedals instead of the V in the nosegear stop would be better? Sure would appreciate the insights and experience of the builders and flyers in this collectively brilliant group! -- Bob Miller 601HD N722Z Charlottesville, Virginia ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:25 PM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 nosegear stop/rudder centering device --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page Bob, I added some delrin to the nose gear on mine and thought it might be a bit tight when I was building it. I made sure the V that was cut in the bottom bearing was just slight, enough to keep the gear centered in flight but not enough to impede steering on the ground. I was very happy when I taxied the first time to see that steering was very easy. The top bearing I left alone with metal-to-metal but added a bit of grease. She was really noisy for the first few hours but now I can report that it doesn't squeak anymore (probably the grease setting in). My main gear on the other hand is really stiff. The bungies haven't worn in and I suspect they will be a while before they relax. I check the grease mark on the main slides underneath and I haven't seen any movement yet. I've seen another 601HD around here with 1100 hours on it and they are nice and smooth and the stop on that plane is about a half-inch above the top plate. Trev Page 601HD R912 C-IDUS On Jul 13, 2005, at 10:08 PM, Bob Miller wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bob Miller > > Dear fellow makers-of-aluminum-dust, > > In the past there have been discussions about the Zenith > metal-to-metal design of the nosegear stop/rudder centering device. > People have been concerned that this design might cause excessive wear > as well as excessive friction on turning [which might be a > contributing factor in the sometimes-reported rudder pedal breakage]. > > As some recommended, I built mine with inserts made of cutting board > pieces. (Probably Delrin--not as good as UHMW material, but strong > enough, I think/thought, to work.) Unfortunately, the gear seems > excessively difficult to turn with the rudder pedals, especially in > the inflight position. I don't know how this might compare with the > original design, but it is unlikely to be worse for friction. > Probably either 1] the angle of the V is too sharp, and/or 2] the > material of the cutting board is just not slippery enough to > facilitate turning... ? > > Perhaps removing the plastic and using springs to center the pedals > instead of the V in the nosegear stop would be better? > > Sure would appreciate the insights and experience of the builders and > flyers in this collectively brilliant group! > > -- > Bob Miller > 601HD N722Z > Charlottesville, Virginia > >