Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:46 AM - Re: 601 nosegear stop/rudder centering device ()
2. 04:34 AM - Engine crate made easy (Zed Smith)
3. 08:04 AM - CH 701 Rear Wing Channels (Jeffrey A Beachy)
4. 08:09 AM - MISTAKE: PRICE REDUCTION - 601XL ELSA (jim)
5. 08:35 AM - Economy Tuning Kit Instructions (Stanley Challgren)
6. 10:11 AM - List Digest Truncation Fixed!! (Matt Dralle)
7. 11:13 AM - Help Please (EMAproducts@aol.com)
8. 11:19 AM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Don Mountain)
9. 11:56 AM - Re: Engine crate handling (Richard Hutson)
10. 12:19 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 12:28 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (VideoFlyer@AOL.COM)
12. 01:05 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (N5SL)
13. 01:19 PM - CH601HD on Amphibs for sale (Zodie Rocket)
14. 01:29 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Craig Payne)
15. 01:32 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Larry McFarland)
16. 01:48 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
17. 01:48 PM - Re: CH 701Rear Wing Channels (ruruny@aol.com)
18. 01:54 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
19. 01:58 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Don Mountain)
20. 02:16 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
21. 02:16 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Don Mountain)
22. 02:25 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Mike Fortunato)
23. 02:25 PM - Re: CH 701 Rear Wing Channels (Robert Schoenberger)
24. 02:27 PM - Re: Economy Tuning Kit Instructions (Eddie Seve)
25. 02:28 PM - Re: Economy Tuning Kit Instructions (Eddie Seve)
26. 02:32 PM - Re: Economy Tuning Kit Instructions (Eddie Seve)
27. 02:32 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Paul Mulwitz)
28. 02:55 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
29. 03:05 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Gary)
30. 03:08 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Paul Mulwitz)
31. 03:57 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (Craig Payne)
32. 05:08 PM - Re: Engine crate handling (mike honer)
33. 09:40 PM - Re: Re: CH 701Rear Wing Channels (NYTerminat@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 601 nosegear stop/rudder centering device |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <max.johansson@nokia.com>
Bob
Regarding the sticky nosewheel steering I have tried using
a) glide pieces (good)
b) glide bearings (better)
c) roller bearings (exellent)
The advantage with method (a) is that it can rather easily
be reftrofitted without dismanting the whole plane. At the
same time the depth of the v-groove can be reduced with
the help of the pieces.
Mounting bearings on the steering pins (b) or (c) is very
easy to do for a scratch builder but it is also rather easy
to modify a stock nosewheel by dremeling away the welded
bolts and using through bolts for the steering rods. It is
additionally possible to strenghten the pins by inserting
another smaller diameter tube into the assembly from pin
end to pin end across the steering column in case the
dremeling made the bolt holes unsymmetrical or too big.
For (b) use two standard glide bearings, having
dimensions D-20mm L=15mm and thickness only 1 mm
For (c) use similar standard roller bearings, these will
however be a few millimeters thicker, so the v-groove
must be filed down an equivalent distance.
It might be possible for scratch builders to use thin needle
bearings for (c) but the selection of needle bearing dimensions
is more limited than for standard roller bearings, and the
standard bearings are also better protected against dust.
Do not forget to discuss with your building inspector your
plans for modification before starting any work. Adding
the glide pieces is a minor modification but modifying
stock parts is not.
After any of the above modifications the main turning
resistance remaining is the cathing of the suspension
sandum against the steering column. Perhaps a sheet of
teflon or some teflon tape might help here, but perhaps
this will prove unnecessary. Some pilots even think that
any centering mechanism is unnecessary and that they
really prefer a more sensitive rudder.
Hopefully these suggestions and observations are of help
best regards,
Max
701 builder in Helsinki
RE:
Dear fellow makers-of-aluminum-dust,
In the past there have been discussions about the Zenith
metal-to-metal design of the nosegear stop/rudder centering device.
People have been concerned that this design might cause excessive wear
as well as excessive friction on turning [which might be a
contributing factor in the sometimes-reported rudder pedal breakage].
As some recommended, I built mine with inserts made of cutting board
pieces. (Probably Delrin--not as good as UHMW material, but strong
enough, I think/thought, to work.) Unfortunately, the gear seems
excessively difficult to turn with the rudder pedals, especially in
the inflight position. I don't know how this might compare with the
original design, but it is unlikely to be worse for friction.
Probably either 1] the angle of the V is too sharp, and/or 2] the
material of the cutting board is just not slippery enough to
facilitate turning... ?
Perhaps removing the plastic and using springs to center the pedals
instead of the V in the nosegear stop would be better?
Sure would appreciate the insights and experience of the builders and
flyers in this collectively brilliant group!
--
Bob Miller
601HD N722Z
Charlottesville, Virginia
Message 2
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| Subject: | Engine crate made easy |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Maybe a lesson from Tom Sawyer (Mark Twain)......
Surely there is an opportunity, for the price of a six-pack, to wager that your
neighborhood "Bubba" whose knuckles drag the ground when he stands upright can't
lift the box.
Or, several big teenage boys would like gas money in exchange for their strong
backs.
Lots of possibilities.
do not archive
Zed/701/R912/etc
Message 3
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| Subject: | CH 701 Rear Wing Channels |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jeffrey A Beachy <beachyjeff@juno.com>
Hello list, I am working on my wings and have the following questions.
(Since Nick was at Arlington, I have yet to receive an answer from ZAC.)
I am working on the wing rear channels 7V6-1 and 7V6-2SP. I made the
plywood template as per the plans. When I use the template to determine
the correct location for the channels, I notice that the top and bottoms
of the channel are a bit higher than the wing ribs--in other words, the
channels appear to be spaced a few mm too far from the wing spar. If I
move the wing channels towards the wing spar a few mm, then the top and
bottoms of the channels are even with the wing ribs.
Is it best to go by the template and have the 696mm distance from the
template to the back of the channels?
Or is it okay to move the wing channels several mm towards the spar in
order to have the tops and bottoms of the channels match the tops and
bottoms of the wing spars?
If it is okay to move the wing channels several mm forward towards the
wing spar, should the flaperon brackets (7V4-6) still be located directly
behind the rear channels?
Message 4
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| Subject: | MISTAKE: PRICE REDUCTION - 601XL ELSA |
3.40 ADVANCE_FEE_1 Appears to be advance fee fraud (Nigerian 419)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" <jim@mail.pellien.com>
All,
I am very sorry but our company made a mistake in the computation for the reduced
pricing for the 601XL ELSA. We neglected to include shipping and handling
charges of $5000 in our computation. So the reduced price actually is $66,250
instead of $61,250. Because it was our fault, we have made a corporate decision
to honor any orders from persons on the Zenith Builders forum at the $61,250
price for the next 2 days only. Starting on 17 July, the reduced price will
be $66,250 for the next 10 aircraft sold..
Sorry for this snafu, but at least we are being up-front about the problem and
willing to honor our earlier offer, albeit for a shorter timeframe.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
jim@sportsplanes.com
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "jim" <jim@mail.pellien.com>
>Sorry,
>
>I forgot to add in the cost for reaasembly of the aircraft after shipping from
the Czech Republic, an additional $1,260 bringing the grand total for the ELSA
to $61,250
>
>Jim
>
>Jim Pellien
>Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
>www.MASPL.com
>703-313-4818
>jim@sportsplanes.com
>
>
>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>From: "jim" <jim@mail.pellien.com>
>Reply-To: <jim@mail.pellien.com>
>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:01:05 -0400
>
>>The President of SportsPlanes.com just announced today that the next 10 sales
of the ELSA version of the 601XL will have a reduced price of only $59,900.
This price reduction is aimed at generating quick sales during the AirVenture
Air Show.
>>
>>Jim Pellien
>>Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
>>www.MASPL.com
>>703-313-4818
>>jim@sportsplanes.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________________________________________
>>Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________
>Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT
>
>
>
>
>
Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT
Message 5
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| Subject: | Economy Tuning Kit Instructions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren <challgren@mac.com>
List:
I got the Economy Tuning Kit but no instructions were included as the
original airworthiness directive indicated should be followed.
Are the instructions necessary or can I just wing it?
If they are necessary, could someone help me out?
Stan
601HDS/Jab 3300
175 hours
Message 6
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| Subject: | List Digest Truncation Fixed!! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
I finally figured out today what was causing the occasional
truncation of the daily List Digest emails. Seems that every once in
a while a message would contain a single "." (period) on line all by
itself. The mailers would see this and assume that this was the
universal emailer signal for "end of message", and consequently
wouldn't process any of the rest of the Digest message.
I've put in a filter today to remove any of these sequences so we
should be back in business on the Digests.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com
I Need help locating Jeff Paden who lives in Kennedy, NY. He called for some
help in calibrating our product the RiteAngle, and the phone number he gave
has been busy for over 2 days now, I know he doesn't talk that much. His home
number is unlisted, The other numbers Zenith Aircraft & EAA have are no longer
in service.
If any list members are in contact with him please ask him to contact me
again by phone or e-mail so I can get questions resolved.
Thanks so much!
Elbie Mendenhall
EM Aviation, LLC
360-260-0772
Message 8
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Thanks everybody for their input on the engine
selection decision for my 601 XL. But I still didn't
really get any useful information. As a structural
engineer I am used to analyzing information from
machinery and structures to build a cost-benifit ratio
to decide what is the lowest cost and best solution of
the problem. And of course I didn't receive back any
information except for emotional sounding
exclaimations about what is "best". When what I
really would prefer is researched and published
information on initial cost of an engine installation,
maintenance costs, lifespan of an engine and
associated parts, or rebuild costs. A higher initial
cost engine, like a Lycoming, with a normal rebuild
time of 2500 hours and a published rebuild time of
2000 hours, may be far cheaper than a Rotax with a
normal rebuild time of only 1000 hours. But nobody
offered locations of this sort of information. So I
assume that you all are as much in the dark as I am on
the real costs of an engine installation.
Maybe more to the point questions should have been
presented for you emotional types that love your
really low hour auto engine installations:
1. Initial first cost of the engine.
2. Initial first cost of the associated FWF parts.
3. Cost of maintanance over the first 4000 hours of
operation.
4. Average fuel costs per nautical mile.
5. Average mileage, gallons per hour and speed.
6. Log of engine malfunctions that hindered flight.
7. How long could I expect an engine to last?
8. Availability of parts.
9. Problems with engine?
10. Starting characteristics?
11. What fuels will run in it?
12. Can I get filters and spare parts at the local
FBO? Or do I have to order parts from JC Whitney?
Don
--- Pete Krotje <pkrotje@athenet.net> wrote:
> I'm a bit amazed at your comment of " total lack of
> warranty... " on Jabiru
> engines. You must be pretty far in the dark to
> think that a one year (from
> delivery with the option to extend the start date so
> you can complete
> building) complete warranty is a lack of warranty.
> It is better than most
> all the others out there! What major defects? We
> certainly have not seen
> any.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Engine crate handling |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard Hutson" <rhutson@midsouth.rr.com>
Ask the truck line if you can pick it up at their dock. You will need a
pickup or a trailer to do this. In some cases, the shipping charges are
reduce for picking up at the dock.
> Subject: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
>
> My Stratus engine is about to arrive and I'm now faced with figuring out
> how to get a 260 pound crate off the delivery truck and into my garage
> without killing anyone or breaking anything. How have other folks
> handled this?
> The truck driver claims they can't deliver it with a lift gate truck.
>
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Regards,
> Bill
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
As a mechanical engineer (we built weapons , you build targets) I have
some sympathy with your position. The trouble is there are a few facts
of life you need to be aware of in Experimental aviation...
Maintenance costs over 4000 hours of operation?...Don, your completely
out to lunch I don't know hardly anyone with 4000hours of total flight
time let alone on one engine...Note the EAA give awards for homebuilts
having done 500, 1000 hours etc.
The other point is once you have made your choice, the cost is kind of
irrelavent...So my Subaru costs me x dollars...and my hanger neighbors
costs y dollars..Who cares, it really makes no difference to me...so not
easy to give you a comparison because I really don't care unless I'm
spending a fourtune.
I have been flying my plane for 6 years...I barely remember what I paid
for the engine over that length of time
And finally you did not ask for comparisons as far as I remember...You
came out with a statement that said "auto engines are a poor substitute
for a proper airplane engine"...My paraphrase...What did you expect? You
did not ask for data you simply dismissed all the fine engine choices in
your opening statement. Naturally we told you you were wrong (and you
were!). Now you accuse everyone of being emotional (read irrational) and
tell us we should have given you a detailed cost analysis...You being an
engineer and all.
I will tell you (with some emotion) that most of the folks here are very
smart people whether they are engineers or not...They may not have all
have the knowledge but they are smart enough to ask intellegent
questions rather than make bogus statements right out of the gate.
Ok now I have gotten past that once again I will tell you.
1) I am (now) very happy with my Subaru conversion It is extremly cheap
to operate and parts cost very little. I would only buy one from Ram
performance (I went elsewhere before)...Look them up on the web for
pricing data. It burns 4.5 to 5.5 GPH at cruise. My cost 6 years ago was
about $7.5K...After I re-ENGINEERED the problems it probably cost me
$10k. Parts come from Autozone/Napa, including oil filters...I presume
you don't want me to get a price on those for you?
2) If soob the engine wears out you can do a rebuild for $3000...easily
3) 100HP Rotaxes cost around $10k at the time... I SUSPECT prices for
parts are higher than for a subaru...don't have the data.
4) Cost for FWF parts is going to a be a wash...to withing a hundred
bucks or so.
5) Engine life, 1000 to 1500 hours.
6) Issues..... valve guides....Only go to ram performance to avoid these
7) Parts....do me a favour, it's a subaru...Autozone/NApa...Rotax, mail
order
8) ALL And I mean ALL engines (yes including Lycomings) will run on
premium autogas......I have done my research!
Now note my RV will have a Lycoming because I my analysis tells me it is
a better choice in a high speed airplane because air cooling usually
causes less drag.
If you compare all the above information with a Lycomng you will not
come close in terms of up front cost or cost per hour of operation.
Sorry detailed evaluation is a bit sketchy but you have now that you can
do your own research.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Mountain
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
Thanks everybody for their input on the engine selection decision for my
601 XL. But I still didn't really get any useful information. As a
structural engineer I am used to analyzing information from machinery
and structures to build a cost-benifit ratio to decide what is the
lowest cost and best solution of the problem. And of course I didn't
receive back any information except for emotional sounding exclaimations
about what is "best". When what I really would prefer is researched and
published information on initial cost of an engine installation,
maintenance costs, lifespan of an engine and associated parts, or
rebuild costs. A higher initial cost engine, like a Lycoming, with a
normal rebuild time of 2500 hours and a published rebuild time of 2000
hours, may be far cheaper than a Rotax with a normal rebuild time of
only 1000 hours. But nobody offered locations of this sort of
information. So I assume that you all are as much in the dark as I am
on the real costs of an engine installation.
Maybe more to the point questions should have been presented for you
emotional types that love your really low hour auto engine
installations:
1. Initial first cost of the engine.
2. Initial first cost of the associated FWF parts.
3. Cost of maintanance over the first 4000 hours of operation.
4. Average fuel costs per nautical mile.
5. Average mileage, gallons per hour and speed.
6. Log of engine malfunctions that hindered flight.
7. How long could I expect an engine to last?
8. Availability of parts.
9. Problems with engine?
10. Starting characteristics?
11. What fuels will run in it?
12. Can I get filters and spare parts at the local FBO? Or do I have
to order parts from JC Whitney?
Don
--- Pete Krotje <pkrotje@athenet.net> wrote:
> I'm a bit amazed at your comment of " total lack of warranty... " on
> Jabiru engines. You must be pretty far in the dark to think that a
> one year (from delivery with the option to extend the start date so
> you can complete
> building) complete warranty is a lack of warranty.
> It is better than most
> all the others out there! What major defects? We certainly have not
> seen any.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
In a message dated 7/14/2005 1:20:44 PM Central Standard Time,
mountain4don@yahoo.com writes:
As a structural
engineer I am used to analyzing information from
machinery and structures to build a cost-benifit ratio
to decide what is the lowest cost and best solution of
the problem. And of course I didn't receive back any
information except for emotional sounding
exclaimations about what is "best".
Yeah...you can always tell an engineer. You just can't tell him much.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Don:
I have to give it to you - your email really got some people going! You must admit
that your email stepped on some toes, but all that aside, I think you have
a lot of airplane building to do before you have to decide on an engine. I
must have changed my mind six times on what engine I was going to use before I
finished the tail! I'm proud of my progress so far so I'll post a link with
a photo of my airframe (including the engine):
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/6_16_05_Engine_Mounted.JPG
Although I'm not qualified to answer your questions to the extent you would probably
want (since mine is not flying), I'll do my best. One side note - William
Wynne is flying a 601XL with the engine I'm copying (over 100 hours to date),
so I feel pretty good about it. I'll only discuss the Corvair conversion since
that is where my focus has been since my sheets of aluminum started to look
like an airplane. Here goes:
1. Initial first cost of the engine.
$25.
It came from a barn in rural Nebraska.
I've spent about $2,000 on parts and machining since the initial purchase. I have
about $1,000 worth of items on my wish-list. Total engine cost $3,000 when
all is said and done. You can buy a completed engine from William Wynne for
$6,750.
2. Initial first cost of the associated FWF parts.
I fabricated my engine mount and plan to make my cowl, but William Wynne has all of the parts available for sale on his web site at www.flycorvair.com. If you add up the cost of the pre-made cowl and engine mount it's around $1,000. You will need to add an exhaust system and intake system to that along with a carburetor. All the parts are available from William.
3. Cost of maintenance over the first 4000 hours of operation.
4,000 is a lot of hours! If you fly an hour each day (difficult with my social
calendar), that would be 11 years!
4. Average fuel costs per nautical mile.
130 miles per hour at 6 GPH will give you 21.67 miles per gallon. Current price
for Mogas is $2.24, so I'd call it Ten Cents per mile.
5. Average mileage, gallons per hour and speed.
William is reporting 4 to 6 gallons per hour. I hope to cruise at 130 mph.
6. Log of engine malfunctions that hindered flight.
Can't help you there - there is lots of information on the internet but nobody's
plane will be like yours so who knows?
7. How long could I expect an engine to last?
That depends on how you treat it, how much you fly, etc. William has one year
on his with no signs of trouble.
8. Availability of parts.
This is where the Corvair shines - Napa, Autozone, Clarks Corvair, Larry's Corvair,
Corvair Underground - the list goes on. I got all my parts with just a phone
call or trip to the auto parts store.
9. Problems with engine?
See www.flycorvair.com or join the corvaircraft email group - the only problems I have heard of stem from folks deviating from the William Wynne design. There were four crankshaft failures recently and all of them were running with prop hub extensions longer than the standard William Wynne design.
10. Starting characteristics?
From what I hear - it starts right up. It depends on the carburetor you use, but
I've seen videos of the corvair firing right up like an automobile.
11. What fuels will run in it?
Mogas or airport fuel - your choice. William recommends 100ll from the airport.
I'm going to use Mogas in my initial testing.
12. Can I get filters and spare parts at the local FBO? Or do I have to order parts
from JC Whitney?
This is a big "It Depends." If you install aviation parts for your air and oil
filters, then you can get them from aviation sources. If you use auto fittings
(like I have) then you can get them at Autozone or Napa.
This web site does a great job in answering many other questions about the Corvair
conversion:
http://www.flycorvair.com/corvair.html#Why%20Fly%20Corvair
You are probably not going to get the answers to all of your questions from the
members on this list or from surfing the internet for that matter. Attend Airventure
and/or Sun-n Fun and take a look at the vendor's products. Visit William
Wynne in Florida if you are interested in the Corvair. Look at the Jabiru
installed in the ZAC demonstrator 601XL. Visit some Zenith drivers like Ron
DeWeese and see his flying 601. I've done all of these things and now have an
arsenal of information that I hope will carry me to completion. Actions like
this will bring you to a level of understanding you can't find on the internet.
Good luck with your project,
Scott Laughlin
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain
Thanks everybody for their input on the engine
selection decision for my 601 XL. But I still didn't
really get any useful information.
---------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | CH601HD on Amphibs for sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Hi List, I now have a lot more information on the CH601HD with the Rotax
914 on amphibs. IT can be viewed at
http://www.can-zacaviation.com/for_sale.htm
Honestly if I had the cash available I wouldn't need to advertise this
plane for the Widow as I would be the new owner!
Please spread the word about this plane if you can, It would be better
for the owner if it is gone sooner rather then later, the asking price
is on the page listed above. When this plane was built 9 years ago the
owner spent over $100,000 cdn, asking price is well below that figure.
Just so you all know Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. is waiving all fees and
commissions in support of the widow. We won't make a cent on this
transaction, we just hope as builders there will be someone there to
help our loved ones if need be.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Really. In asking for this information (having already made up your
mind) you show that *you* haven't done your homework. Specifically for
the Corvair (which you have already dismissed as "badly designed") much
of the hard facts you "request" exists on William Wynne's site
(www.flycorvair.com). He has been working with the Corvair engine for at
least 8 years and has worked hard to produce hard facts and measurements.
But judging by the tone of your e-mails I don't feel you have an open
mind on this subject and I for one don't feel like wasting my time
trying to change it.
Since you appear to have unlimited funds why don't you just by a Cessna
and be done?
-- Craig
Don Mountain wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
> Thanks everybody for their input on the engine
> selection decision for my 601 XL. But I still didn't
> really get any useful information. As a structural
> engineer I am used to analyzing information from
> machinery and structures to build a cost-benifit ratio
> to decide what is the lowest cost and best solution of
> the problem. And of course I didn't receive back any
> information except for emotional sounding
> exclaimations about what is "best". When what I
> really would prefer is researched and published
> information on initial cost of an engine installation,
> maintenance costs, lifespan of an engine and
> associated parts, or rebuild costs. A higher initial
> cost engine, like a Lycoming, with a normal rebuild
> time of 2500 hours and a published rebuild time of
> 2000 hours, may be far cheaper than a Rotax with a
> normal rebuild time of only 1000 hours. But nobody
> offered locations of this sort of information. So I
> assume that you all are as much in the dark as I am on
> the real costs of an engine installation.
>
> Maybe more to the point questions should have been
> presented for you emotional types that love your
> really low hour auto engine installations:
>
> 1. Initial first cost of the engine.
> 2. Initial first cost of the associated FWF parts.
> 3. Cost of maintanance over the first 4000 hours of
> operation.
> 4. Average fuel costs per nautical mile.
> 5. Average mileage, gallons per hour and speed.
> 6. Log of engine malfunctions that hindered flight.
> 7. How long could I expect an engine to last?
> 8. Availability of parts.
> 9. Problems with engine?
> 10. Starting characteristics?
> 11. What fuels will run in it?
> 12. Can I get filters and spare parts at the local
> FBO? Or do I have to order parts from JC Whitney?
>
> Don
>
> --- Pete Krotje <pkrotje@athenet.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm a bit amazed at your comment of " total lack of
>>warranty... " on Jabiru
>>engines. You must be pretty far in the dark to
>>think that a one year (from
>>delivery with the option to extend the start date so
>>you can complete
>>building) complete warranty is a lack of warranty.
>>It is better than most
>>all the others out there! What major defects? We
>>certainly have not seen
>>any.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Don,
It sounded like you had your mind made up on the Lyc or the Continental,
but you asked so, my 2-cents. Data points wont answer it for you
because personal user variables are so different.
The firewall forward groups can be defined by cost, popularity and user
commonality.
These are the 912, the 912 S Rotax, not too expensive to maintain or
operate, but complexity/warranty nearly require professional repair.
The 1.8-liter Subaru engines are popular because they are very
inexpensive to maintain and operate, but require more user knowledge to
install. Popularity of the Subaru is due to the fact that it is simple,
can back into 3.5 gallons/hr and as a car engine, it was designed
initially as an aircraft engine. Water-cooled engines have some serious
benefits and are continually being looked at by commercial interests.
Stratus, Ram Performance and Eggenfelder are 3 of half a dozen brands of
Aircraft adapted Subaru engines that are available. These are most
popular and see severe service in gyrocopters.
The Corvair is an economical alternative to the Jabaru 3300 and puts the
buyer in the position of having to know enough to select components
correctly and be engaged in the build process. Theres lots of guidance
to get one into a great engine that is as economical to maintain and
repair. Over a million Corvair engines are still around awaiting conversion.
The Jabaru 3300 is more expensive, (but less than a new Lyc) offers the
maximum operational performance and can only recently be said to occupy
a large number of aircraft. The company has an exceptional record of
support thru early teething problems and is as respected a brand of
aircraft engine as exists. This distills concerns for mfr warranty to
nothing. Some attention is required to install one of these as any
similar air cooled engine, but you knew that.
The Lycoming and Continental engines are expensive to buy new, require
the same involvement in maintenance have really expensive parts and
consume 6-7 gallons per hour of fuel regardless. For this expense, you
have an engine thats as heavy as any of the above and it can also quit
on you as any of the above does on rare occasion.
The choice is still yours and in keeping with the best traditions of
EAA, I prefer water-cooled engines.
If I had do-overs and the Subaru wasnt available, Id go for the
Corvair, then the 3300 Jabaru, then the Rotax and then, possibly a used
Franklin or Continental in that order, but if you want data, do the
footwork.
Best regards,
Larry McFarland 601HDS
Do not archive
Don Mountain wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
>Thanks everybody for input on the engine
>selection decision for my 601 XL. But I still didn't
>really get any useful information. As a structural
>engineer, I am used to analyzing information to decide what is the lowest cost
and best solution.
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
The Lycoming and Continental engines are expensive to buy new, require
the same involvement in maintenance have really expensive parts and
consume 6-7 gallons per hour of fuel regardless. For this expense, you
have an engine thats as heavy as any of the above and it can also quit
on you as any of the above does on rare occasion.
Message 17
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| Subject: | re: CH 701Rear Wing Channels |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ruruny@aol.com
Jeff,
Here are some pics of the rear channel construction on my project. Remember its
best to have the rib protrude more or be even with the rear channel. If the channel
protrudes beyond the rib, move the channel fwd or back slightly for a good
fit. Youll get a ripple at the rib if the channels are higher. If the channels
are slightly lower 1-2 mm the channel will pull up to the skin when you rivet
it. If you have to shave alittle bit off the template its no problem. I had
to adjust and tweek mine till it fit right. But once its set, keep it the same
for each rib. Make sure you radius the corners at the rear of the template
so it fits nice in the channel. This might move the channel up slightly to the
proper place. Also notice the threaded rod to set the distance between the ribs.
This was a great help in getting everything in the proper distance at least
the distance between the ribs, those little clamps were a big help. If you
move the channels forward the flaperon brackets still
butt up against the rear channel! Also if they are handy take a look at your
top and bottom skins. There are predrilled holes in there that might give you
some clues to determine the distance from center of spar to center of channel
on the top and bottom of the wing. Make sure to look over the plans carefully.
I remember this part being very challenging.
Good luck
Brian
Use this link to look at pics.
http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeBM2LNo3YsmEG¬ag=1
Message 18
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
One small correction,
The Lycomings will not consume more than their automotice counterparts
if they are run correctly. Unfortunatly this means a well balanced fuel
injected setup and the requirement for the pilot to understand the
correct leaning procedures...Most pilots do not know how to lean an
aircraft engine.
But in any case I know of 200HP IO360 Lycs (MUCH bigger than the o235
for the 601) that are regularly leaned out to 7,2GPH...At over 180mph in
an RV that's better fuel economy than you will see with an auto
conversion.
One thing that is true, fuel distribution in a carburetted Lyc makes
fuel consumption pretty poor.
Respectfully
Frank
Do not archive
The Lycoming and Continental engines are expensive to buy new, require
the same involvement in maintenance have really expensive parts and
consume 6-7 gallons per hour of fuel regardless. For this expense, you
have an engine thats as heavy as any of the above and it can also quit
on you as any of the above does on rare occasion.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
> VideoFlyer@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 7/14/2005 1:20:44 PM Central
> Standard Time,
> mountain4don@yahoo.com writes:
> As a structural
> engineer I am used to analyzing information from
> machinery and structures to build a cost-benifit
> ratio
> to decide what is the lowest cost and best solution
> of
> the problem. And of course I didn't receive back
> any
> information except for emotional sounding
> exclaimations about what is "best".
> Yeah...you can always tell an engineer. You just
> can't tell him much.
Thats because we already know most everything. Right
Frank? And sometimes we just need a little more
information to fill in the gaps.
Don
Message 20
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Well eventually we do...:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Mountain
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
> VideoFlyer@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 7/14/2005 1:20:44 PM Central Standard Time,
> mountain4don@yahoo.com writes:
> As a structural
> engineer I am used to analyzing information from machinery and
> structures to build a cost-benifit ratio to decide what is the lowest
> cost and best solution of the problem. And of course I didn't receive
> back any information except for emotional sounding exclaimations about
> what is "best".
> Yeah...you can always tell an engineer. You just can't tell him much.
Thats because we already know most everything. Right Frank? And
sometimes we just need a little more information to fill in the gaps.
Don
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> Really. In asking for this information (having
> already made up your
> mind) you show that *you* haven't done your
> homework.
> Since you appear to have unlimited funds why don't
> you just by a Cessna
> and be done?
>
> -- Craig
I already own and fly a Piper Cherokee Craig. Does
that count?
Don
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Message 22
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
I think you'll find that in this plane building biz,
emotions rule. I tend to be more analytical like you,
but brand loyalty runs rampant among most builders.
So, it's likely that if you want completely unbiased
data, you'll probably have to compile that yourself if
it's to have any useful meaning. In the meantime, some
generic answers follow:
> 1. Initial first cost of the engine.
Auto conversions tend to be MUCH less than aircraft
engines. But you also need to consider other factors
such as weight, complexity (some are liquid cooled and
many require reduction units), ease of installation,
etc. Aircraft engines, especially the certified types,
will cost a whole lot more initially.
> 2. Initial first cost of the associated FWF parts.
That really goes hand in hand with the engine
itself. IMO, it's not wise to separate out the two
when considering initial installation costs. My FWF
comparisons INCLUDED the engine itself -- I saw no
reason to separate everything out. I'm still amazed
that this industry can advertise "you can build a
complete airplane, just $20K!". Then you find out
there's no engine, cowling, propeller, gauges, etc.
Imagine buying a "complete" car and not getting an
engine with it!
> 3. Cost of maintanance over the first 4000 hours of
> operation.
Again, autos will be less, simply because auto parts
tend to be cheaper than aircraft parts. TBO varies
widely between different engines....but in the auto
conversion arena, be aware that TBO's are not much
more than guesses as compared to certified engine
TBO's.
> 4. Average fuel costs per nautical mile.
My opinion on this is that the airframe plays a
much larger role on fuel costs than does the engine.
All the engines perform about the same (when you
compare equal HP & performance). The only substantive
difference might be that 100LL is more expensive than
mogas. But keep in mind that if you plan on x-country
flights, mogas is not usually available at most
airfields. (it's true that most auto conversions can
use 100LL, but there's goes the cost savings when you
do). Mogas is also more prone to vapor lock...just ask
Fred. :)
> 5. Average mileage, gallons per hour and speed.
Same comments as #4 above. If anyone tries to tell
you that putting a 100hp brand X engine will result in
20mph more than the 100hp brand Y engine, run the
other way.
> 6. Log of engine malfunctions that hindered flight.
I agree that is an important consideration, but
it's very hard to quantify. For instance, recently
there have been reported crank failures in Corvair
conversions. But the theory is that the failures are
related to the manner in which the conversion was
performed. Plus, many of these engines haven't flown
for very long, relatively speaking. Because of these
variables, it's hard to get a meaningful comparison on
reliability.
> 7. How long could I expect an engine to last?
Longer than you! :) You may have to overhaul a
couple of times (the engine, not you).
> 8. Availability of parts.
With auto conversions, no problem. With the others,
no problem too, so long as you have enough money.
> 9. Problems with engine?
Same as #6 above. And I'll add that some engines may
be more complex to install than others.
> 10. Starting characteristics?
I think most are the same. Some carbs may not have
primers, but mods are usually no problem if you live
in a colder climate.
> 11. What fuels will run in it?
Addressed briefly above.
> 12. Can I get filters and spare parts at the local
> FBO? Or do I have to order parts from JC Whitney?
Same as #8 above.
I know you're probably looking for a matrix
somewhere that contains all this data, and if you are,
best of luck because I doubt it exists. And just to
clarify, my comments are about as unbiased and
unemotional as you can get. I went from wanting the
Jabiru, to being sold on the Corvair, and then back to
the Jabiru. I think all of the available engines have
their benefits, but I personally eliminated some for
various reasons. For instance, I don't like the idea
of a liquid cooling system -- IMO, just another
possible failure point. I also didn't like the thought
of the engine & FWF costing more than the airframe,
but I also want to fly quickly. There are trade-offs
everywhere!
Mike Fortunato
601XL
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: CH 701 Rear Wing Channels |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
Jeff . . . I would be careful about moving the rear channels forward of the
correct distance shown on the plans as you have a sizable fuel tank to
squeeze into one of the spaces between the rib channel and spar. Did you
check the dimensions of the ribs and channel to make sure they are made
correctly? I've had a couple of minor pieces which weren't and which ZAC
cheerfully replaced. You didn't say how much higher a "bit higher" is.
There is some some slight flex in the rib flange. Robert Schoenberger 701
55%.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey A Beachy" <beachyjeff@juno.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 Rear Wing Channels
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jeffrey A Beachy <beachyjeff@juno.com>
>
> Hello list, I am working on my wings and have the following questions.
> (Since Nick was at Arlington, I have yet to receive an answer from ZAC.)
>
> I am working on the wing rear channels 7V6-1 and 7V6-2SP. I made the
> plywood template as per the plans. When I use the template to determine
> the correct location for the channels, I notice that the top and bottoms
> of the channel are a bit higher than the wing ribs--in other words, the
> channels appear to be spaced a few mm too far from the wing spar. If I
> move the wing channels towards the wing spar a few mm, then the top and
> bottoms of the channels are even with the wing ribs.
>>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Economy Tuning Kit Instructions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eddie Seve" <eddie.seve@clarity.com>
Sorry I should have just posted the link
http://www.auf.asn.au/airworthiness/JSL002-1.pdf
Eddie
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stanley
Challgren
Subject: Zenith-List: Economy Tuning Kit Instructions
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren <challgren@mac.com>
List:
I got the Economy Tuning Kit but no instructions were included as the
original airworthiness directive indicated should be followed.
Are the instructions necessary or can I just wing it?
If they are necessary, could someone help me out?
Stan
601HDS/Jab 3300
175 hours
Message 25
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| Subject: | Economy Tuning Kit Instructions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eddie Seve" <eddie.seve@clarity.com>
Hi Stan,
Not sure if this is what your after ?
Eddie
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stanley
Challgren
Subject: Zenith-List: Economy Tuning Kit Instructions
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren <challgren@mac.com>
List:
I got the Economy Tuning Kit but no instructions were included as the
original airworthiness directive indicated should be followed.
Are the instructions necessary or can I just wing it?
If they are necessary, could someone help me out?
Stan
601HDS/Jab 3300
175 hours
Message 26
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| Subject: | Economy Tuning Kit Instructions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eddie Seve" <eddie.seve@clarity.com>
Hi Stan,
I am waiting for my 601XL kit to arrive, it 3 months away (sigh).
Anyway, I was just wondering what your thoughts / impressions were so
far on the Jab 3300.
Eddie
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stanley
Challgren
Subject: Zenith-List: Economy Tuning Kit Instructions
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren <challgren@mac.com>
List:
I got the Economy Tuning Kit but no instructions were included as the
original airworthiness directive indicated should be followed.
Are the instructions necessary or can I just wing it?
If they are necessary, could someone help me out?
Stan
601HDS/Jab 3300
175 hours
Message 27
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>Most pilots do not know how to lean an
>aircraft engine.
OK, I'll bite. I've been a pilot for some 35 years, so I must not
know how to lean an engine.
So, what is the correct procedure?
Paul
601 XL, barely started
-------------------------------------------
Message 28
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Depends if you fall into the category of "most pilots" or not...If you
do not then that staement does not apply to yourself..:)
More correctly I should say most pilots I have talked to do not know how
to lean properly and current training in this area is sorely
lacking....Even if you read the Jeppsen flight manuals it will not go
into the theory behind ROP vs LOP operation.
If you read the POH for most light airplanes, Lycoming (who presumably
write that part of the POH) will have you leaning the engine to about
50F ROP...Eactly where the worst danger of detonation lies.
Funnily enough, leaning procedures were perfected on radial engines,
mainly because they have very good mixture distribution even running
Carbs and the only way to make it across the Atlantic was running LOP.
Lycs sadly can't do this with carbs and because the peak EGT for each
cylinder is in a radically different place on the fuel flow
curve...Thats why "leaning an engine till it runs rough then add a bit"
has become the defacto method....But a well balanced FI'd Lyc will never
run rough as you lean it...The flame will just gradually go out without
running rough at all.
For the correct procedure and a really good explanation of the theory do
a search on "Deakin"...I think his first name is John...He resides on
the AV-web website.
A really good read for the techno buffs
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Mulwitz
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
--> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>Most pilots do not know how to lean an
>aircraft engine.
OK, I'll bite. I've been a pilot for some 35 years, so I must not know
how to lean an engine.
So, what is the correct procedure?
Paul
601 XL, barely started
-------------------------------------------
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary" <GM_bear@hotmail.com>
>
> Thats because we already know most everything. Right Frank? And
> sometimes we just need a little more information to fill in the gaps.
First engineer to another, nice bicycle!
Second engineer says "this beautiful girl rode up, jumped off the bike, took
off her clothes and said take anything you want! I took the bike."
First engineer, good choice, the clothes would have been too small!
Sorry guys, just couldn't resist.
Gary
Message 30
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| Subject: | Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>If anyone tries to tell
>you that putting a 100hp brand X engine will result in
>20mph more than the 100hp brand Y engine, run the
>other way.
Actually, I think this could easily be true. All you need is for
engine brand X to be considerably lighter than engine brand
Y. Another possibility is that engine brand X has direct drive while
engine brand Y uses a considerable amount of horsepower to convert
its inappropriate RPM range to one suitable for a propeller in a PSRU.
Paul
601 XL barely started
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Engine for my 601 XL? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Great! Then why do you want a Zenith? And have you found a Zentih that
has over 4000 hours on the airframe?
-- Craig
Don Mountain wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain <mountain4don@yahoo.com>
>
>><craig@craigandjean.com>
>>
>>Really. In asking for this information (having
>>already made up your
>>mind) you show that *you* haven't done your
>>homework.
>
>
>>Since you appear to have unlimited funds why don't
>>you just by a Cessna
>>and be done?
>>
>>-- Craig
>
>
> I already own and fly a Piper Cherokee Craig. Does
> that count?
>
> Don
>
>
>
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Engine crate handling |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "mike honer" <amhoner@rtmc.net>
Very exciting when a big piece is about to arrive. WhatIi have done many
times is to have the heavy piece delivered to the local terminal , hold for
pickup. Then, I drive my car over, with the little trailer attached. Yellow
Freight are great! they will deliver the box to the trailer, which takes the
height down to 18 inches, where it can be handled to the ground with 2x4's
and a come-a-long.
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: re: CH 701Rear Wing Channels |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
In a message dated 7/14/2005 4:50:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ruruny@aol.com
writes:
http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeBM2LNo3YsmEG¬ag=1
Brian,
Wished I would have used the treaded rod idea when I built mine. That looks
like a great idea. Are you going to be flying out of FRG or ISP?. I used to
live in Bayshore and had my business in West Babylon.
Bob Spudis
CH-701 75% 912S
do not archive
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