---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/16/05: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:09 AM - Re: Engine crate handlingEngine crate handling (Larry Portouw) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (ron dewees) 3. 07:22 AM - Re: 601 nosegear stop/rudder centering device (Bob Miller) 4. 09:29 AM - New to the group. (Dave Ruddiman) 5. 11:03 AM - Re: New to the group. (Larry McFarland) 6. 12:05 PM - 801 info (Keystone Engineering LLC) 7. 12:47 PM - [ Wayne Beattie ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 8. 02:12 PM - 701 Fuselage gussets (Robert Schoenberger) 9. 02:34 PM - Re: New to the group. (Ron Culver) 10. 03:21 PM - Re: Engine for my 601 XL? (NYTerminat@aol.com) 11. 03:27 PM - A GUIDE TO AIRCRAFT PAINTING & CORROSION CONTROL (Garey Wittich) 12. 03:48 PM - Re: New to the group. (Jon Croke) 13. 03:55 PM - 701 fuselage gussets (fred sanford) 14. 05:18 PM - Re: New to the group. (Jon Croke) 15. 05:21 PM - Re: 701 Fuselage gussets (NYTerminat@aol.com) 16. 06:00 PM - Re: 701 Fuselage gussets (Paul Mulwitz) 17. 06:06 PM - Re: New to the group. (Paul Mulwitz) 18. 06:08 PM - Re: New to the group. (Monty Graves) 19. 06:47 PM - Corvair engine (Dave Ruddiman) 20. 06:53 PM - 601 Canopy lessons learned? (Mark Stauffer) 21. 07:05 PM - Re: 701 Fuselage gussets (Rick R) 22. 07:11 PM - Prop to cowling distance? (scotty scotty) 23. 07:55 PM - Re: 601 Canopy lessons learned? (Brandon Tucker) 24. 08:13 PM - Re: New to the group. (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 25. 08:42 PM - Re: 601 Canopy lessons learned? (Mike Fortunato) 26. 08:46 PM - Re: Corvair engine (Craig Payne) 27. 08:46 PM - Re: Re: 601 Canopy lessons learned? (Mark Stauffer) 28. 09:23 PM - Re: 601 Canopy lessons learned? (Jack Russell) 29. 09:41 PM - Re: Corvair engine (Dave Ruddiman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:24 AM PST US From: "Larry Portouw" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine crate handlingEngine crate handling --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Portouw" I always found that a call to your EAA chapter with a promise of beer and pizza made crate moving a breeze! Larry Portouw Atlanta 601XL Do not archive Three 1" - 1 1/2" dia. dowels a little wider than the crate and placed under the crate once it's on the ground help to move it along. As it goes forth take the dowel at the rear and move it to the front. Not as good as the dollies, but workable. robert schoenberger 701 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike honer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine crate handling > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "mike honer" > > Very exciting when a big piece is about to arrive. WhatIi have done many > times is to have the heavy piece delivered to the local terminal , hold > for > pickup. Then, I drive my car over, with the little trailer attached. > Yellow > Freight are great! they will deliver the box to the trailer, which takes > the > height down to 18 inches, where it can be handled to the ground with 2x4's > and a come-a-long. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:30 AM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hay Guys, I have a request for listers to this thread, or is it a rope at this point? I think I have counted over 100 postings to this subject and the content has gone from informative to a pissing contest, personal attacks, lawyer bashing, EIS systems, and engine leaning techniques. PLEASE change the subject if it's not related to the original post. I've started deleting all "engine for my 601XL" messages and might miss something interesting. Thanks Ron in Atlanta do not archive roy vickski wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski > >So Don, once you get all the gaps filled in your >knowledge will you let us in on your findings? or will >we have to pay for them as a ASTM or SAE publication. > >I seem to remember way back in the 70's that the Ford >Pinto was the low cost, best solution and competed >with GM's low cost best solution (Vega), but what do I >know I drove old Caddys and M Benz. > >Roy Szarafinski >701 plans, corvair plans, efi ect. > >Post Script >Do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:56 AM PST US From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 nosegear stop/rudder centering device --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bob Miller Thanks Trev and Max for the feedback; between the two of you, I think you pretty much put the subject to bed! A couple questions, tho-- Trev, glad to hear the delrin works well--how thick a piece did you use? And Max, it was great to get such extensive and specific info on bearings. It sounds like all scratch builders ought to consider this option, and that if one does the work to retrofit glide bearings one might as well put in roller bearings. I'm probably too mechanically challenged to try the retrofit, but maybe you could provide a few more details on "dremeling away the welded bolts and using through bolts for the steering rods"? I gather that by "through bolts" you don't mean just replacing the bolts that were dremelled away. Are you talking about a different kind of bolt, or a modification to the steering rods? Appreciado, Bob ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:41 AM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Zenith-List: New to the group. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" Hello All, I just joined this group yesterday. I haven't read through to much of the previous information yet. I have previously built the tail group and wings for a 601HDS which were destroyed in the garage. That's another story. Built the rudder for a 701, and have just ordered the tail kit for the 601 XL. I did get a chance for a quick demo flight in the red and white 601XL at the Arlington fly-in. That's what ultimately pushed me over the edge again to start another project. This one will get finished and fly. Haven't quite figured out how to break it to the wife yet that I am starting another project. I guess it will just be a big surprise. I live in Salem, Oregon. Is anyone around that is fairly close to me building? I hope this is the correct way to post a message. Dave ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:57 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New to the group. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Welcome Dave, You've picked the right aircraft and I hope you have an understanding wife. It took a while for mine to get used to my need to build, but I couldn't have done it without her. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Dave Ruddiman wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" > >Hello All, > >I just joined this group yesterday. I haven't read through to much of the previous information yet. I have previously built the tail group and wings for a 601HDS which were destroyed in the garage. That's another story. Built the rudder for a 701, and have just ordered the tail kit for the 601 XL. I did get a chance for a quick demo flight in the red and white 601XL at the Arlington fly-in. That's what ultimately pushed me over the edge again to start another project. This one will get finished and fly. Haven't quite figured out how to break it to the wife yet that I am starting another project. I guess it will just be a big surprise. I live in Salem, Oregon. Is anyone around that is fairly close to me building? I hope this is the correct way to post a message. > >Dave > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:25 PM PST US From: Keystone Engineering LLC Subject: Zenith-List: 801 info --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keystone Engineering LLC Don I love my 801. Yes, the list is overwhelmed by 601 enthusiasts. If I lived in America and was going airport to airport a 601 would be a great plane. I'm quite sure there are more people with that mission than there are in mine. I love going to the beaches and sand bars with several friend. The old adage goes, pick your mission then pick your iron. If you want to go from airport to airport with one other person you should build a 601. If you want to go do some fun flying I recommend a pickup truck like the 801. One of the things I do with my 801 is go hunting for a week or two a couple of times per year. When I go I put 2 people and 2 weeks of gear in the back, then bring home 200-400 lbs of meat. But I would like to go faster than the 103 mph too. There are sacrifices in everything you do. I have a Lycoming-auruses in mine. Lycomings have always brought me home. If I have lots of time and little money, I too would look at a rotary engine. The only problem is you then need a reduction gear with the accompanying weight and complexities. When I owned an RX-7 I never could figure out how to get to stop using oil. To my knowledge there is not an 801 on floats, yet. If I can scrape together the money I may put mine on Full Lotus floats this year. Enjoy the process of building the plane. Life is too short to not enjoy each stage. Bill Wilcox Valdez, AK N801BW 175 hrs The salmon are running hot and heavy. Want a couple hundred pink salmon? Bring your pick up truck by and we will fill it up. Time: 09:03:15 AM PST US From: Don Boeck Subject: Zenith-List: CH-801 Info --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Boeck Fellow Enthusiasts, I have been "lurking" on this site for a while. Initial impression: this site is primarily 601, with a scattering of 701. Am I where I need to be re: 801 info? I am guessing "yes" and to just keep lurking until the 801 gains builders. Any advice re: 801-specific sites? I will retire end of 2005. Wife and I are building in NE Tennessee, Norris Lake. Plan is to build a rotary-powered 801 on floats. Primary use will be getting to and from fishing spots and BBQs at neighbors. It would be nice to contact/meet fellow builders in the area. EAA for sure. FWIW, I too have a degree in engineering; couldn't care less about an engine matrix (I am capable of doing my own research); no, my mind isn't made up - still open to suggestions (from what I read, a rotary has less moving parts, less vibration, and, who knows, when someone with 4,000 hrs tach time checks in, it may even be as reliable and cost effective as many others); with only some 4k to 5K hrs flight time in GA aircraft (22K total, 2K in radials), I suspect I too do not know how to properly lean an engine; this may be moot, however, should an EFI Mazda 13b or Renesis end up on the blunt end of my flying machine. Sorry for the lengthy post, it's my first. I suspect now that I have "laid my cards on the table", responses and further posts will be SATTP. Thanks, Don B 0% P.S. Am considering putting my 100hp Cessna 120 on floats - comments anyone? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [ Wayne Beattie ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Wayne Beattie Lists: Zenith-List Subject: Zodiacs at Sentimental Journey, Lock Haven Pa. http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/waynebeattie@optonline.net.07.16.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:59 PM PST US From: "Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Fuselage gussets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" List . . . I know I must be missing something obvious. On page 2 of 12, Section 4 of the photo assembly guide for the 701 fuselage, it calls for 10 gussets made of .025" "extra material". These are the 50 x 50 mm corner gussets where the horizontal skin L's meet the vertical skin L's. I've gone through my scrap bin three times and everything sizeable is .016". Obviously, I'm building from the kit and not scratch. Where did the rest of you get this "extra material". Thanks in advance. Robert Schoenberger 701 55% ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:50 PM PST US From: "Ron Culver" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New to the group. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Culver" Newby here as well.I have built the 701 Rudder from the kit but wish to build the rest from scratch. Doing the rudder with pop rivets was almost too easy. Now I have the aluminum and have built the forms for the wing ribs etc but need to do the spar web. That calls for hard rivets which I have never done. I am building the"Rivet Setter For Spars" rig that is posted on the builders site but have no idea how to set it up for the riveting. I don't even know the terminology used for the parts that are on either side of the rivet when they are set. If I knew those terms I could look up the correct parts. The rivets are all AN 470-AD-4-4, -4-5,-5-7 andAN-470- A-3-3. I have the rivets which appear to be anodized aluminum ( I got them directly from Zenith so I assume they are correct). I need some advise on the names of the parts to complete the Rivet Setter and the procedure to set the rivets correctly. Thanks in advance.. Ron Culver East Greenbush,NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Zenith-List: New to the group. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" > > > Hello All, > > I just joined this group yesterday. I haven't read through to much of the > previous information yet. I have previously built the tail group and wings > for a 601HDS which were destroyed in the garage. That's another story. > Built the rudder for a 701, and have just ordered the tail kit for the 601 > XL. I did get a chance for a quick demo flight in the red and white 601XL > at the Arlington fly-in. That's what ultimately pushed me over the edge > again to start another project. This one will get finished and fly. > Haven't quite figured out how to break it to the wife yet that I am > starting another project. I guess it will just be a big surprise. I live > in Salem, Oregon. Is anyone around that is fairly close to me building? I > hope this is the correct way to post a message. > > Dave > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:25 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine for my 601 XL? --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Bill WELL SAID!! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:23 PM PST US From: Garey Wittich Subject: Zenith-List: A GUIDE TO AIRCRAFT PAINTING & CORROSION CONTROL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Garey Wittich > This Information comes from my own research which I did for > my RV-8A, which I am building. Information applies to both Aluminum and Composite aircraft. This is the 3th printing. > > --------------- ------------- ------------ > > SAVE YOURSELF hundreds of hours of research time and > building time, by using the comprehensive > > "Guide to Painting & Corrosion Control of Aluminum > and > Composite Aircraft" > > This book took over 600+ hours of research time by > me, > a fussy RV-8A Builder. Contains 69 pages of the > latest, practical information - summarized and > gathered from MIL Standards, Paint Shops, Builders > like you (what worked or didn't), Airframe Mfgs, > etc. > Covers products from PP&G, Dupont, Sherwin W'ms, > Sterling, Poly Fiber, Deft, Randolph Paints, PRC De > Soto, US Paints, Aircraft Finishing Systems, 3M, > etc. > > Some of the Topics covered in the 30 Sections are: > * Aircraft Paints vs Auto Paints and Other > Considerations > * Corrosion Control > * Spray Guns - selecting, adjusting, using > and painting problems > * Brushes / Rollers used with Primers & > Paints > * Prep Methods for Painting - Fiberglass, > Steel and Aluminum > * Epoxy Primers for Aluminum - MIL & > Commercial, Solvent & Water Reducible > * Primers for Fiberglass & Steel > * Wash Primers & Self Etching Primers > * Other Primers - Zinc Chromate,Zinc Oxide, > Enamel > * Paint Types: MIL & Non MIL Polyurethanes > Enamel Types > Acrylics - Lacquers & Enamels > * Acid Etch / Conversion Coatings (Alodine) > * Selecting a Paint Shop > * 3M Cleaning Pads, Liquid Cleaner > compatibility > * Paint Booths and their Construction > * References - MIL Standards & Tech Orders > * Directory of Aircraft Paint Mfgs, Distrib- > utors, etc. E-Mail addresses, phone > numbers, Application Notes > > YOUR AIRPLANE is judged by it's Paint Job and it is > costly too, so have the latest "Information" in > order > to make good decisions. Contains plenty of "Do's" > and > "Don'ts" that save you time, money and frustration. > > Send a check for $26 to (includes Postage within the > US) to: > Garey Wittich RV-8A Builder > 58 Village Parkway > Santa Monica, CA. 90405 > > __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:18 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New to the group. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" Ron, Just one opinion... get yourself a rivet gun and bucking bar..... you may find that the rivet setter *may* not work on the 701 fuse sides due to the hard to get to areas involved wth those pieces... take a look at the plans and you decide. Riveting with a rivet gun didnt take too long to learn! Yes, you would need an air compressor, too. Good luck and welcome to the List. Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Culver" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New to the group. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Culver" > > Newby here as well.I have built the 701 Rudder from the kit but wish to > build the rest from scratch. Doing the rudder with pop rivets was almost > too > easy. Now I have the aluminum and have built the forms for the wing ribs > etc > but need to do the spar web. That calls for hard rivets which I have never > done. I am building the"Rivet Setter For Spars" rig that is posted on the > builders site but have no idea how to set it up for the riveting. I don't > even know the terminology used for the parts that are on either side of > the rivet when they are set. If I knew those terms I could look up the > correct parts. The rivets are all AN 470-AD-4-4, -4-5,-5-7 andAN-470- > A-3-3. > I have the rivets which appear to be anodized aluminum ( I got them > directly > from Zenith so I assume they are correct). I need some advise on the names > of the parts to complete the Rivet Setter and the procedure to set the > rivets correctly. Thanks in advance.. Ron Culver East Greenbush,NY > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Ruddiman" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: New to the group. > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" >> >> >> Hello All, >> >> I just joined this group yesterday. I haven't read through to much of the >> previous information yet. I have previously built the tail group and >> wings >> for a 601HDS which were destroyed in the garage. That's another story. >> Built the rudder for a 701, and have just ordered the tail kit for the >> 601 >> XL. I did get a chance for a quick demo flight in the red and white 601XL >> at the Arlington fly-in. That's what ultimately pushed me over the edge >> again to start another project. This one will get finished and fly. >> Haven't quite figured out how to break it to the wife yet that I am >> starting another project. I guess it will just be a big surprise. I live >> in Salem, Oregon. Is anyone around that is fairly close to me building? I >> hope this is the correct way to post a message. >> >> Dave >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:17 PM PST US From: fred sanford Subject: Zenith-List: 701 fuselage gussets --> Zenith-List message posted by: fred sanford The gussets are supplied. On the parts list. I got mine as a package of squares. 7F3-2A I believe.................Fred Sanford.701............rebuilding wing after the crash-into. do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:14 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New to the group. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" Ron, I took another look at my fuse sides, and there is a good chance that the manual riveter WOULD work,, I was concerned about the depth of the throat reaching the most inner rivets... so I stand corrected... maybe! But I would still prefer a gun... thats just me. Just didnt want to be misleading. Jon >Just one opinion... get yourself a rivet gun and bucking bar..... you may find that the rivet setter *may* not work on the 701 fuse sides due to the hard to get to areas involved wth those pieces... take a look at the plans and you decide. Riveting with a rivet gun didnt take too long to learn! Yes, you would need an air compressor, too. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Culver" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New to the group. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Culver" > > Newby here as well.I have built the 701 Rudder from the kit but wish to > build the rest from scratch. Doing the rudder with pop rivets was almost > too > easy. Now I have the aluminum and have built the forms for the wing ribs > etc > but need to do the spar web. That calls for hard rivets which I have never > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:58 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Fuselage gussets --> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com Robert. There was plenty of material in my crate to make the gussets. As an afternote check all your parts because after they were made and installed I found them in my vat array of parts already made. They are not very big and were all taped together. Bob Spudis CH-701, 912S ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:55 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Fuselage gussets --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >List . . . I know I must be missing something obvious. On page 2 of >12, Section 4 of the photo assembly guide for the 701 fuselage, it >calls for 10 gussets made of .025" "extra material". These are the >50 x 50 mm corner gussets where the horizontal skin L's meet the >vertical skin L's. I've gone through my scrap bin three times and >everything sizeable is .016". Obviously, I'm building from the kit >and not scratch. Where did the rest of you get this "extra >material". Thanks in advance. Robert Schoenberger 701 55% If all else fails, you can order a piece of aluminum from www.onlinemetals.com They have treated me very nicely - so long as you don't mind paying more for shipping than for the metal. They are in Seattle, WA, so great for west coast folks. Good luck, Paul 601 XL barely started ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:13 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New to the group. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >Doing the rudder with pop rivets was almost too >easy. Now I have the aluminum and have built the forms for the wing ribs etc >but need to do the spar web. That calls for hard rivets which I have never >done. I am building the"Rivet Setter For Spars" rig that is posted on the >builders site but have no idea how to set it up for the riveting. I don't >even know the terminology used for the parts that are on either side of >the rivet when they are set. I broke down and ordered the book recommended by Zenith -- Standard Aircraft Handbook. It has a lot to say about solid rivets. It also has great information on nearly everything else you need to learn like aircraft plumbing, bending sheet metal, and other black arts. I got mine from Amazon.com, but I am sure there are many other sources. Good luck, Paul 601 XL barely started ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:18 PM PST US From: Monty Graves Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New to the group. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves Hi Ron, Welcome to the group. I am guessing you, mean one of the two Rivet Setters on the www.ch701.com web site http://www.ch701.com/Tools/homemade_tools.htm I just finished making my 701 spars with the first one on the above page.. And it worked VERY WELL. However the 701 spar is a little different than the 601 spar the rivet setter was made for. Its an easy fix if known about in advance. Since the 701 has 3/4 inch angles turned in both directions on the spar. The reach of the rivet squezze set needs to be built up so that the 3/4 inch angles clears the base. I will send you a picture of mine off list if you want. Other wise you can look at it on the 701builders Yahoo web site. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/701builders/files/ The parts I think you referr too. Are hand rivet squezze sets. These are little cup dies, that slip in a hand rivet squezzer, and cost about $3.00 each from a aircraft tool supply house. You will need one for the 1/8 inch rivets, and one for the 5/32 rivets. and if you use the other rivet setter that has a lever built in you will need the smooth flush face die as well. Another $3.00 Other wise, you need a 1/2 inch long bolt or rod. I used a Grade 8 bolt 7 inches long with one end cut off and the end sanded and polished smooth. You don't want to transferr any ridges to the rivet. And this bolt is struck with a 3 pound sledge hammer. A good set usually takes 2 blows, sometimes 3. Jon Crooke, brings up a good point. The cabin sides also are put together with solid rivets. and the depth of the rivet tool may not allow a few of the these rivets to be set since the bent cabin piece sheet part number 7-F-9-1 bend is 146mm tall. About 5 3/4 inches. Which is taller than the 4 inch throat of the rivet setter... I think that all the rivets can be reached by turning the piece and coming in from a different direction...... BUT I just cut my pieces out this last friday, and I haven't tried yet. I will let you know in the next week or so. Although I think if worse comes to worse that at most 4 or 5 rivets would have to be set by a punch and hammer with a steel plate backing as shown in the Zenith Assembly manual. Or a person could just take the cup out of the setter, drill a hole in a piece of scrap steel, and take the bolt out and do these few rivets that way. This bench mounted rivet tool costs about $25-35 to build, is simple to use, makes a REALLY REALLY good rivet set, And I would disagree with Jon, about buying a rivet gun unless you think there is going to be a RV airplane in your future. It took about 40-50 man hours to make the rivet tool and make my 701 spars. Monty Graves At 05:34 PM 7/16/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Culver" > >Newby here as well.I have built the 701 Rudder from the kit but wish to >build the rest from scratch. Doing the rudder with pop rivets was almost too >easy. Now I have the aluminum and have built the forms for the wing ribs etc >but need to do the spar web. That calls for hard rivets which I have never >done. I am building the"Rivet Setter For Spars" rig that is posted on the >builders site but have no idea how to set it up for the riveting. I don't >even know the terminology used for the parts that are on either side of >the rivet when they are set. If I knew those terms I could look up the >correct parts. The rivets are all AN 470-AD-4-4, -4-5,-5-7 andAN-470- A-3-3. >I have the rivets which appear to be anodized aluminum ( I got them directly >from Zenith so I assume they are correct). I need some advise on the names >of the parts to complete the Rivet Setter and the procedure to set the >rivets correctly. Thanks in advance.. Ron Culver East Greenbush,NY >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dave Ruddiman" >To: >Subject: Zenith-List: New to the group. > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > I just joined this group yesterday. I haven't read through to much of the > > previous information yet. I have previously built the tail group and wings > > for a 601HDS which were destroyed in the garage. That's another story. > > Built the rudder for a 701, and have just ordered the tail kit for the 601 > > XL. I did get a chance for a quick demo flight in the red and white 601XL > > at the Arlington fly-in. That's what ultimately pushed me over the edge > > again to start another project. This one will get finished and fly. > > Haven't quite figured out how to break it to the wife yet that I am > > starting another project. I guess it will just be a big surprise. I live > > in Salem, Oregon. Is anyone around that is fairly close to me building? I > > hope this is the correct way to post a message. > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:31 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" Who amongst the group has installed a Corvair in their plane? How do you like it. Pros and cons? I really like the Jabiru, but the Corvair is way cheaper. Dave ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:03 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Canopy lessons learned? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" To the 601 builders, I've just started on the canopy and would to hear of any tricks, procedures, voodoo magic or whatever that you used to get this thing on the right way the first time. I've got the front hinge finished and am about to work on the top skin tomorrow. I've read through the directions and now I would like to learn from those that have "been there and done that". Did you have to sit in the fuselage a lot? That's a big concern of mine because I'll have to move the fuselage to another location. Also, I've been considering putting in nut plates for the top skin. For those of you that riveted the top skin on have you regretted it? If you were to do it over would you install nut plates this time? Just curious. When spacing the nut plates on the firewall flange I found that 50mm spacing seems to work much better (I haven't drilled the holes yet). On the panel side just about all you can do is place them between the flutes. For those that did use nut plates any "gotchas" to watch for? As always thank you very much for any help/advice. Mark Stauffer Odenton, MD 601XL SN 4999 N624MK reserved Sweating about the canopy! Do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:02 PM PST US From: Rick R Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Fuselage gussets --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick R Robert, They were just misc sized pieces of .025 sandwiched in the bottom of the crate that the fuse came in. Sort of a grab bag of misc aluminum. Robert Schoenberger wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" --------------------------------- List . . . I know I must be missing something obvious. On page 2 of 12, Section 4 of the photo assembly guide for the 701 fuselage, it calls for 10 gussets made of .025" "extra material". These are the 50 x 50 mm corner gussets where the horizontal skin L's meet the vertical skin L's. I've gone through my scrap bin three times and everything sizeable is .016". Obviously, I'm building from the kit and not scratch. Where did the rest of you get this "extra material". Thanks in advance. Robert Schoenberger 701 55% Rick Orlando, FL. USA http://www.geocities.com/n701rr/index.html ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:05 PM PST US From: scotty scotty Subject: Zenith-List: Prop to cowling distance? --> Zenith-List message posted by: scotty scotty Just finished molding my 701 nosepiece, front part of cowling, the rest is aluminum. My situation is that i only have maybe 1 to 1.5 inches(as nosepiece curves out and back) between the trailing edge of Powerfin prop and gear box of the Hirth F30 for cowling to fit in, assuming i crank alot of pitch,i'd hate to build it too tight and not be able to use all the pitch for the engine. The otherside is that if too close to the engine will viberate and rub against the kevlar nosepiece. Is there a certain minimun distance from cowling to prop? I read something about it could be louder if its too close, but didn't find anything affecting performance? Another thing is that the engine is aircooled, so need to keep good airflow going in duct holes on nosepiece. Also i've thought on a prop spacer, but wasn't sure how thick or if it could shorten the gearbox life? Didn't see any in Aircraftspruce book where are they avail? Thanks for all the advice. Scotty Armstead 701 -90% ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:59 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: 601 Canopy lessons learned? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Mark, Look in the archives about the canopy bows. I think it was Frank who shared the idea of filling the tubing with sand and taping the ends to allow for bending without flat spots. Getting the bows to the correct curvature was the most difficult part of the whole build. I built mine from scratch, and after a long search for latch mechanisms, and considering building them from scratch, I just bought the setup from Zenith and welded on myself. If you are building from kit - not an issue. I placed the canopy under a very small space heater for several hours before working on it - just to make sure it was not cold. I'm sure you know that you should use a plexiglass drill bit. The reason for this is that standard drill bits are actually cut at an angle into the direction of rotation. This is what causes it to catch in the plexiglass and crack. If you compare one with a regular drill bit, you will see what I mean. Step drill bits are cut 90 deg from the center like a plexiglass bit, which is why they are ok to use. Above all, be patient. When I broke my first canopy bow, I was fuming, and it almost landed on my wife's new car after flying 20' into the air, after I threw it on the ground. -Not my best moment... I walked away for a week after that one... R/ Brandon Building Corvair motor ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:38 PM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New to the group. --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com In a message dated 7/16/2005 8:09:30 PM Central Daylight Time, p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net writes: That calls for hard rivets which I have never >done. Now would be a good time to join an EAA Chapter, and to get connected with EAA Technical Advisors. Most chapter members will assist with skills, and will share tools once you are a chapter member, and confess inexperience. The Tech Advisors will help document inspections as you progress. Great support. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:59 PM PST US From: Mike Fortunato Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Canopy lessons learned? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato > I would liketo learn from those that have "been there >and done that". First, take it from someone who has had to buy two canopy bubbles. Make sure you drill the bubble using the techniques provided, and most importantly -- do it in warm (preferably hot) weather! > Did you have to sit in the fuselage a lot? Wasn't necessary for me, but I'm only 5'9" so headroom wasn't an issue. > Also, I've been considering putting in nut plates > for the top skin. I riveted the top skin, but cut a large access panel in the top skin, which is actually two panels that are hinged in the middle, and the edges are fastened with nutplates. Make it MUCH easier to work behind the instrument panel and on the inside of the firewall. Mike Fortunato 601XL http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:06 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne Just to cover the obvious, you have been to William Wynne's site and seen his 601XL w/Corvair? And hopefully you have found the Corvair list: http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html One part of the equation that is changing is the availability of FWF parts. Jabiru (also through Zenith) offers a nice, complete FWF kit. But WW is getting close to offering everything too. He has offered the nose bowl and engine mount for some time now and is beginning to ship intake and exhaust manifolds. The intake manifolds as made for the Ellison or the MA-3SPA that WW prefers. The sheet metal from the cowling back to the firewall is pretty simple: no compound curves. Ignoring cost it really comes down to what you feel comfortable with. If auto-conversions make you feel uncomfortable then go with the Jabiru 3300. That gets you a proven aircraft engine with dual ignition. But I (and others) trust and respect WW's efforts to produce hard data showing the qualities of the Corvair *if* you follow his guidelines. I helped (stayed out of the way) rebuild my Corvair at WW's hanger at the end of April and have bought just about everything he makes for the XL/Corvair combo (including some parts that don't exist yet). All I've got to do now is put it all together and learn to fly it. I could afford the Jabiru (if I sold my wife into slavery) but the Corvair conversion is just more interesting and in the spirit of experimental aviation. You should also ask your question on the Corvair list - you may reach a different set of people. -- Craig Dave Ruddiman wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" > > Who amongst the group has installed a Corvair in their plane? How do you like it. Pros and cons? I really like the Jabiru, but the Corvair is way cheaper. > > Dave > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:12 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: 601 Canopy lessons learned? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" Brandon, Thanks for the reminder of the archives and for your other advice. I did buy a set of Plexiglas drills for this several months ago and now will finally put them to use, CAREFULLY!! Mark Do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:56 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Canopy lessons learned? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Hey Mark: Glad to see you are still at it. I got sidelined with the painting and just haven't been able to get over that hump. Anyway, I drilled the canopy with a regular 1/16" drill and then used a step bit and it worked fine for me. The temp was around 60 deg but I think it would be even better at summer temps. My 4" angle grinder seemed to work fine for shaping the canopy to the fuselage but maybe I was just lucky. I did go slow with everything. As far as the top skin, I used 8/32 modac (sp?) nuts (which look like a u bolt with a captive nut) instead of rivets. After working under the panel of my ercoupe I never want that experience again. The whole top is removable even though it means 100 screws. I made the "wings" (that cover the hinge bolts) on the top skin seperate. This was mainly due to a mistake but now I don't have to remove them when I take off the top skin. Jack in Clovis CA Mark Stauffer wrote: I've just started on the canopy and would to hear of any tricks, procedures, voodoo magic or whatever that you used to get this thing on the right way the first time. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:27 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" Yes to all of that. Just find out from someone who has done it. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair engine > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne > > Just to cover the obvious, you have been to William Wynne's site and > seen his 601XL w/Corvair? And hopefully you have found the Corvair list: > > http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html > > One part of the equation that is changing is the availability of FWF > parts. Jabiru (also through Zenith) offers a nice, complete FWF kit. But > WW is getting close to offering everything too. He has offered the nose > bowl and engine mount for some time now and is beginning to ship intake > and exhaust manifolds. The intake manifolds as made for the Ellison or > the MA-3SPA that WW prefers. The sheet metal from the cowling back to > the firewall is pretty simple: no compound curves. > > Ignoring cost it really comes down to what you feel comfortable with. If > auto-conversions make you feel uncomfortable then go with the Jabiru > 3300. That gets you a proven aircraft engine with dual ignition. But I > (and others) trust and respect WW's efforts to produce hard data showing > the qualities of the Corvair *if* you follow his guidelines. I helped > (stayed out of the way) rebuild my Corvair at WW's hanger at the end of > April and have bought just about everything he makes for the XL/Corvair > combo (including some parts that don't exist yet). All I've got to do > now is put it all together and learn to fly it. I could afford the > Jabiru (if I sold my wife into slavery) but the Corvair conversion is > just more interesting and in the spirit of experimental aviation. > > You should also ask your question on the Corvair list - you may reach a > different set of people. > > -- Craig > > Dave Ruddiman wrote: >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" >> >> >> Who amongst the group has installed a Corvair in their plane? How do you >> like it. Pros and cons? I really like the Jabiru, but the Corvair is way >> cheaper. >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >