Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:44 AM - Re: Clecos and Drill Bits ()
2. 07:29 AM - tension control cables! (rical26)
3. 08:02 AM - Re: surface scratches with a vixen file (Monty Graves)
4. 08:35 AM - Re: New to the group. (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
5. 09:17 AM - Re: surface scratches with a vixen file (Paul Mulwitz)
6. 09:24 AM - Re: tension control cables! (Lance Gingell)
7. 09:48 AM - Re: Engine mount (gary)
8. 10:24 AM - Re: surface scratches with a vixen file (kevinbonds)
9. 11:30 AM - Re: tension control cables! (Larry McFarland)
10. 12:02 PM - Re: tension control cables! (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 12:27 PM - Re: surface scratches with a vixen file (Paul Mulwitz)
12. 02:34 PM - Re: surface scratches with a vixen file (kevinbonds)
13. 02:58 PM - Re: surface scratches with a vixen file (Zodie Rocket)
14. 03:02 PM - sub engine (ron wehba)
15. 03:20 PM - Re: surface scratches with a vixen file (Graham Kirby)
16. 05:55 PM - Re: 601 Canopy lessons learned? (Mark Stauffer)
17. 07:36 PM - Intro- Alex from New Jersey (Alex Rodriguez, MD)
18. 08:22 PM - Re: Intro- Alex from New Jersey (Mark Stauffer)
19. 10:34 PM - Re: sub engine (Gary Gower)
20. 10:58 PM - Re: sub engine (Eddie Seve)
21. 11:02 PM - Re: sub engine (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Clecos and Drill Bits |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <CLEONARD52@comcast.net>
200 BLACK CLECOS, 200 COPPER CLECOS AND 100 SILVER CLECOS. YOU CAN GET BY
WITH LESS BUT YOU WILL NOT LIKE IT.
CHARLES
601XL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Clecos and Drill Bits
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen"
<davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I'm going to Airventure this year, and plan to look for some clecos and
> quality drill bits while I am there. Has anyone found good vendor(s) at
> Oshkosh for these items? ZAC's web site has a suggested number of clecos
> and drill bits. Are their numbers accurate, or should I be getting more
> than they are suggesting? ZAC doesn't have a suggestion for the number of
> #40 bits for the 3/32" clecos - how many of these bits do I need? Is
there
> a particular type of drill bit that works best?
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Dave Van Lanen
> Madison WI
> 601XL - kit ordered, attending Aug. workshop, converting garage to
> year-round workshop
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | tension control cables! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: rical26 <rical26@rogers.com>
Hi all, anybody can tell me what is the proper tension for rudder and
ailerons cables
regards
Richard
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: surface scratches with a vixen file |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
While the builders manual CLEARLY state that surface scratches shouldn't be
a concern.
The SPARS and SPAR WEBS are a different matter. Heintz specifically says
"ALL scratches are to be removed by sanding with the grain".
I personally wouldn't use the vixen file method to deburr the spar
webs. Or the spar caps.
I never could get a vixen file to NOT TO leave scratches. But I didn't
make a short one like Mark's or grind the ends like the post below either.
I was recently at the Zenith factory and a builders workshop was going
on. All the builders were using the file method for deburring parts. So
Zenith clearly approves of this method. But several of the sheets looked
like they had DEEP surface scratches.
Which begs the question what is a surface scratch and how deep can it be?
I was told by an old time alum airplane worker. "If you rub your finger
NAIL across a scratch and you can feel it" It needs to be removed, no
matter where its located.
IMHO if a person leaves a scratch they can feel with a finger nail in a
structural piece like ANY .032 material or thicker of a Heintz kit, one
is asking for trouble down the road.
Monty
>-
>The burr removal method involves laying a flat file on the surface of
>the aluminum sheet and sliding it over the drilled hole. This files
>any burr off the hole edges and leaves a smooth surface. It does
>leave a few small scratches on the sheet of aluminum, but these are
>only surface scratches which should disappear in the paint prepping process.
>
>One note is that the forward edge of the file tends to make larger
>scratches, and it shouldn't really dig into the surface at all
>(IMO). So I grind the edges of the file to make them rounded and not
>sharp cornered.
Message 4
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| Subject: | New to the group. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I'm in Corvallis and have been flying my 601HDS for 6 years now.... Some
of the parts are the same, let me know if you coming down this way.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Ruddiman
Subject: Zenith-List: New to the group.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman"
--> <pacificpainting@comcast.net>
Hello All,
I just joined this group yesterday. I haven't read through to much of
the previous information yet. I have previously built the tail group and
wings for a 601HDS which were destroyed in the garage. That's another
story. Built the rudder for a 701, and have just ordered the tail kit
for the 601 XL. I did get a chance for a quick demo flight in the red
and white 601XL at the Arlington fly-in. That's what ultimately pushed
me over the edge again to start another project. This one will get
finished and fly. Haven't quite figured out how to break it to the wife
yet that I am starting another project. I guess it will just be a big
surprise. I live in Salem, Oregon. Is anyone around that is fairly close
to me building? I hope this is the correct way to post a message.
Dave
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: surface scratches with a vixen file |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>While the builders manual CLEARLY state that surface scratches shouldn't be
>a concern.
>
>The SPARS and SPAR WEBS are a different matter. Heintz specifically says
>"ALL scratches are to be removed by sanding with the grain".
Sadly, the above quote from Heintz is taken out of context. In my
manual, page 5 of 18 dated 1/23/03, the whole entry on this subject says:
Scratches: a) Spars and longerons: All transverse scratches and nicks
must be removed by filing and sanding lengthwise.
b) All other parts: Unless deep, scratches will not reduce the
fatigue-life of the structure.
Especially IMPORTANT: Any scratch and/or nick must be removed from
spars and fuselage longerons by filing and sanding LENGTHWISE
-----
I guess there is considerable confusion on this subject. I interpret
the above quoted manual entry to indicate only transverse scratches
and nicks in spars and longerons must be fixed. It then indicates
that to fix these scratches you must sand or file along the long
direction of the spar or longeron. (I am also not too worried about
scratches on the spars since I am building from a kit.)
In another writing, Heintz comments on his bending aluminum aileron
design by saying that even tears in the metal stop and do not
continue so that they do not present a serious problem for safety of
the plane. All of this leads me to believe scratches in noncritical
parts (meaning not spars or longerons) are not a problem to worry about.
I fear the problems the writer of the earlier message had with always
leaving scratches was a direct result of his not rounding the edges
of the file. This rounding is easy to do by grinding the edges of
the file at a 45 degree (+/- 40 degree) angle with a bench
grinder. That insures that only surface scratches will be left when
the file starts flat on the metal to be deburred.
I agree with the other writer that a fingernail cannot feel a surface
scratch. Another way to determine a scratch is not deep is to rub
the area with purple Scotchbrite pads. This should change any
scratch so all you see is the circular tracks you just made. (This,
by the way, is probably a good way to prepare the surface for painting anyway.)
Paul
XL barely started
do not archive
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | tension control cables! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" <lgingell@matrix-logic.com>
Here's what Nick at ZAC told me....
> 4. What cable tension should I use on the control cables, and how
> should I measure it?
approximately 30 +/- 5 pounds.
Hope that helps,
..lance
-----Original Message-----
--> Zenith-List message posted by: rical26 <rical26@rogers.com>
Hi all, anybody can tell me what is the proper tension for rudder and
ailerons cables regards Richard
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "gary" <FlyinK@Efortress.com>
> While adjustment for P-Factor is helpful, it is not critical. It just
> boils
> down to how much right rudder you will need to use on take off and it will
> be different every time anyway depending on wind factors. I would use the
> same as Rotax, assuming you will be spinning the same size prop and the
> same
> speed. Otherwise, just SWAG it within limits of 1 to 4 degrees. In case
> you don't know, that's a Scientific Wild Ass Guess.
- the rotax and stratus spin opposite. reverse the offset for the rotax.
gary
Message 8
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| Subject: | surface scratches with a vixen file |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Try using a little grease with your file. Helps keep it from clogging as
well. When I first grease my file it will hold on to all the dust and make
little dust-bunnies that I have to knock off by tapping the table. But once
the excess grease is removed it seems to leave a cleaner edge and won't
grab. Only problem is your hands get really sticky/dirty with grease and
aluminum dust. Hope this helps. BTW I'm referring to cleaning edges here (I
haven't tried this with holes I use the oversized drill bit method for
those).
Also I found this great deburring tool made by NOGA.
http://www.travers.com/pdfshow.asp?p=904 I borrowed one from a friend to try
it out. I loved it.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Monty Graves
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: surface scratches with a vixen file
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
*Snip:
I never could get a vixen file to NOT TO leave scratches. But I didn't
make a short one like Mark's or grind the ends like the post below either.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: tension control cables! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Richard,
You'll find Zenith aircraft don't take more than 20 lb cable tension to
work fine. I think anything more
will deflect the brackets too much and wear out bearing supports.
Rather than buy one of the expensive
tensionometers, you might consider making one using 3 garage door cable
pulleys, a spring and some light 4130.
The links below show you how to configure one and calibrate it
accurately without much calculation.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/cabletools/full/tension4.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/cabletools/full/tension3.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/cabletools/full/tenscalbrate.gif
Larry McFarland - 601HDS
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: rical26 <rical26@rogers.com>
>
>Hi all, anybody can tell me what is the proper tension for rudder and
>ailerons cables
>regards
>Richard
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | tension control cables! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I agree. I simply tensioned mine until it felt about right (about 4"
deflection either way) and its been fine for 370 hours including some
aerobatic manouvers.
Frank
601 HDS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: tension control cables!
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Richard,
You'll find Zenith aircraft don't take more than 20 lb cable tension to
work fine. I think anything more will deflect the brackets too much and
wear out bearing supports.
Rather than buy one of the expensive
tensionometers, you might consider making one using 3 garage door cable
pulleys, a spring and some light 4130.
The links below show you how to configure one and calibrate it
accurately without much calculation.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/cabletools/full/tension4.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/cabletools/full/tension3.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/cabletools/full/tenscalbrate.gif
Larry McFarland - 601HDS
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: rical26 <rical26@rogers.com>
>
>Hi all, anybody can tell me what is the proper tension for rudder and
>ailerons cables regards Richard
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | surface scratches with a vixen file |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>Also I found this great deburring tool made by NOGA.
>http://www.travers.com/pdfshow.asp?p=904 I borrowed one from a friend to try
>it out. I loved it.
I have used tools like the NOGA for years and think they are
wonderful for chamfering edges on steel parts. These tools have
carbide cutters that go through aluminum like a hot knife through
butter. I would not use one on aluminum when chamfering is
definitely not the objective. I have seen several references that
suggest chamfering is not acceptable on holes to be riveted.
Paul
XL, barely started
do not archive
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 12
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| Subject: | surface scratches with a vixen file |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
I was talking about deburring edges. Any harm in doing that? It does kind of
chamfer the edge if you bare down on it. I usually file clean, debur with
the Noga lightly, then make a light final pass with the file. Seems to leave
a nice edge.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: surface scratches with a vixen file
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>Also I found this great deburring tool made by NOGA.
>http://www.travers.com/pdfshow.asp?p=904 I borrowed one from a friend to
try
>it out. I loved it.
I have used tools like the NOGA for years and think they are
wonderful for chamfering edges on steel parts. These tools have
carbide cutters that go through aluminum like a hot knife through
butter. I would not use one on aluminum when chamfering is
definitely not the objective. I have seen several references that
suggest chamfering is not acceptable on holes to be riveted.
Paul
XL, barely started
do not archive
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | surface scratches with a vixen file |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
This thread is getting long as well but let me add one more thing since
I'm one of the contributing factors. Any scratch that a fingernail can
be caught in should receive some attention, even if that means bondon on
the skin before paint. The Vixen file I have on my website does not
scratch as the edges are rounded, but it can polish with exuberant use,
lightly used it will only polish the drilled holes heavy use will shine
the alum quite nicely.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751
President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba" <rwehba@pegasusbb.com>
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wilsonnz/engine.html
how about this for a 701, never heard of the redrive though!
Message 15
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| Subject: | surface scratches with a vixen file |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graham Kirby" <graham@601hd.com>
On the wingspars of my 601HD kit it looks a lot like ZAC used a ScotchBrite
pad for deburring, even going across the thin web material. Probably
another one of those areas where we tend to worry too much.. But on the
other hand, it is amazing how easy it is to cut .016 sheet using the scratch
and bend technique...
Graham
601HD
Message 16
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| Subject: | 601 Canopy lessons learned? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" <mark.stauffer@cablespeed.com>
Many thanks to everyone that replied both to the list and off line. You guys
are a wonderful source of information and I really hope that I can
contribute one of these days.
Mark Stauffer
Odenton, MD
601XL SN 4999
N624MK reserved
Sweating about the canopy!
Do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Intro- Alex from New Jersey |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Alex Rodriguez, MD" <proteus@mac.com>
Hello,
I have been researching homebuilts for a few months and I've settled
on the Zodiac XL. I'd like to hear from/meet builders near my home in
South Jersey. I'm about 20 minutes from Philadelphia. It would be
helpful at this stage if I can see and hopefully ride in a completed
model but I'd also like to visit builders as well. I'm a student
pilot flying out of Millville (KMIV) where I'm training for my PPL. I
hope to get my ticket by the fall.
For those of you that have done the Rudder workshop at Zenithair, is
this something you would recommend for someone that's never built
anything before?
Thanks for your help and I hope to be participating on the list from
a builder's point of view real soon.
Alex
Message 18
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| Subject: | Intro- Alex from New Jersey |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" <mark.stauffer@cablespeed.com>
Alex,
I live just south of Baltimore. If you're ever in the area you're more than
welcome to stop by. My wings are 98% completed, tail is completed, and I'm
working on the canopy of the fuselage. I should have it on the gear by mid
August just in time for the Jabiru to show up.
I'd recommend the rudder workshop. They don't really teach you anything but
instead give you all the parts, the plans and instructions and then let you
loose. It makes you learn their way of thinking and interpreting but they're
right there to help you or get you another part if you really goof one up.
Also, weather permitting, everyone gets a ride in the aircraft of their
choice. I had a blast!
Good luck with your project, you made a good choice.
Mark Stauffer
Odenton, MD
601XL
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alex
Rodriguez, MD
Subject: Zenith-List: Intro- Alex from New Jersey
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Alex Rodriguez, MD" <proteus@mac.com>
Hello,
I have been researching homebuilts for a few months and I've settled
on the Zodiac XL. I'd like to hear from/meet builders near my home in
South Jersey. I'm about 20 minutes from Philadelphia. It would be
helpful at this stage if I can see and hopefully ride in a completed
model but I'd also like to visit builders as well. I'm a student
pilot flying out of Millville (KMIV) where I'm training for my PPL. I
hope to get my ticket by the fall.
For those of you that have done the Rudder workshop at Zenithair, is
this something you would recommend for someone that's never built
anything before?
Thanks for your help and I hope to be participating on the list from
a builder's point of view real soon.
Alex
Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Ron,
I found this page in Google, Dont know what language is, no english (translation
flag)...
http://www.seznam.cz/25/29/62-jaroslav-sonka-servis.html?sekce=2226
Saludos
Gary Gower.
ron wehba <rwehba@pegasusbb.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba"
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wilsonnz/engine.html
how about this for a 701, never heard of the redrive though!
Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eddie Seve" <eddie.seve@clarity.com>
Hi Guys,
The language is Czechoslovakian (Czech Republic)
Regards,
Eddie
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: sub engine
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Ron,
I found this page in Google, Dont know what language is, no english
(translation flag)...
http://www.seznam.cz/25/29/62-jaroslav-sonka-servis.html?sekce=2226
Saludos
Gary Gower.
ron wehba <rwehba@pegasusbb.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba"
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wilsonnz/engine.html
how about this for a 701, never heard of the redrive though!
Message 21
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Its Czech (that's what the .cz extension means. Unfortunately
babelfish.altavista.com doesn't translate Czech and I didn't find much
text to translate anyway. I did find a picture of their redrive though.
Look at the top picture at
http://www.volny.cz/sonka.servis/index2.htm
-- Craig
Gary Gower wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>
> Ron,
>
> I found this page in Google, Dont know what language is, no english (translation
flag)...
>
> http://www.seznam.cz/25/29/62-jaroslav-sonka-servis.html?sekce=2226
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.
>
> ron wehba <rwehba@pegasusbb.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba"
>
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wilsonnz/engine.html
>
> how about this for a 701, never heard of the redrive though!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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