---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/08/05: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:26 AM - Re: Re: Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (Paul Mulwitz) 2. 06:56 AM - Re: Re: Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (kobo1) 3. 08:11 AM - Re: 701 Detailed Material List (mike king) 4. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (DICK WILBERS) 5. 09:42 AM - Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com) 6. 10:41 AM - Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (Don Mountain) 7. 11:05 AM - O-200 continental as engine choice for CH601 (deanmford@aol.com) 8. 11:10 AM - Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 11:19 AM - Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 10. 11:31 AM - Re: Large Corvair Auction (Russell J.) 11. 11:37 AM - Re: O-200 continental as engine choice for CH601 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 12. 11:40 AM - HD HDS Flaps (601corvair) 13. 11:55 AM - Re: O-200 continental as engine choice for CH601 (Larry McFarland) 14. 12:01 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 12:25 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (BIANCO Tadeusz Forgacz) 16. 01:00 PM - Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (Paul Mulwitz) 17. 01:03 PM - Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (ron dewees) 18. 01:08 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:21:34 +0200 (\214rodkowoeuropejs... (Pete Andersen) 19. 01:33 PM - Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 20. 01:43 PM - Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (RURUNY@aol.com) 21. 02:06 PM - Re: Large Corvair Auction (William Dominguez) 22. 02:08 PM - Re: 1-Week Sport Pilot School (Craig Payne) 23. 02:12 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 26 Msgs - 08/07/05 (morganfarm@medinaec.com) 24. 02:46 PM - To Paint Or Not To Paint (Tommy Walker) 25. 03:19 PM - Re: To Paint Or Not To Paint (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 26. 03:52 PM - Re: To Paint Or Not To Paint (Larry McFarland) 27. 04:04 PM - CAM100, belt noise? (Grant Corriveau) 28. 04:43 PM - Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (kevinbonds) 29. 05:28 PM - Re: 1-Week Sport Pilot School (Jim Pellien) 30. 05:50 PM - Re: 1-Week Sport Pilot School (Craig Payne) 31. 06:19 PM - Re: To Paint Or Not To Paint (Trevor Page) 32. 06:31 PM - 601XL Sport Pilot School - (Jim Pellien) 33. 08:16 PM - Re: To Paint Or Not To Paint (Brandon Tucker) 34. 08:47 PM - Blue Mountain EFIS lite (Brandon Tucker) 35. 09:08 PM - Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (jackyager) 36. 09:43 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS lite (Paul Mulwitz) 37. 10:34 PM - Re: Jabiru CHT wire routing (Lance Gingell) 38. 10:46 PM - Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location (xl) 39. 11:43 PM - Re: hinge-less with autopilot (kevinbonds) 40. 11:46 PM - Re: Inflight adjustable prop (Efraim Otero) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:26:48 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz At 09:23 PM 8/7/2005, you wrote: >BTW, I realize this is something I should know, but on the plans for the >bushings 6w4-5, what is the little sign preceeding the one-quarter inch >designation for the hole? Looks like an "O" with a line through it. Does >that mean approximately? As in approximately one-quarter inch? It is the Greek letter Phi. It designates diameter as opposed to R which designates radius. The tolerance should be specified somewhere in the drawing package or builder's manual. There is a general tolerance which applies if no tolerance is specified for any given measurement. Paul XL barely started. do not archive --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:00 AM PST US From: "kobo1" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kobo1" Regarding these bushings, if they are for the rudder or elevator bolts, oil impregnated brass bushings can be bought at a bearing supply store for 7-30 cents Canadian. That's where I got mine for the CH200 series. 1/4"ID X 1/4"OAL. Michael Kolbasovsky -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinbonds Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" I think if you are very meticulous about it, The saw and drill press method won't be too crude. BTW, I realize this is something I should know, but on the plans for the bushings 6w4-5, what is the little sign preceeding the one-quarter inch designation for the hole? Looks like an "O" with a line through it. Does that mean approximately? As in approximately one-quarter inch? Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz --> > >Failing that, I'd ask around and see if anyone knows of someone who >does onesy-twoseys in a backyard shop. Its amazing what you can find, >sometimes just around the corner, just by asking. Since you have the >stock you should be able to get a reasonable price. > >..neil What a great idea, Neil. I do indeed have a lathe that could easily do the task you mentioned. I might take a different order of operations though, depending on how many bushings are needed. The other way would be to cut the cylindrical blanks on a band saw and then drill each one on the lathe. This would mean you don't have to do any very deep drilling which can be a big problem. If you want a really flat and smooth end for the pieces, a facing operation could be performed on each end of each piece. Also, if you need really accurate holes in the bushings (which I don't think is the case here) you can drill slightly undersized holes and ream them on the lathe to a mirror smooth perfect dimension. The trick to getting a low price for this kind of work is to be as loose as is appropriate in specifying the dimensions needed. If the length is 13.7 +/- .01 mm the effort needed to make them is a lot more than if it is 13.7 +/- .5 mm. (It might be better to use inches instead of millimeters, too.) A similar issue can be said about the hole - is a drilled hole OK or does it need to be reamed? If this is just a spacer similar to a thick washer to be bolted in place then the specifications could be very loose and still be OK. If this is really a crude spacer then cutting on a saw and drilling on a drill press might be just fine. This is just another of the millions of decisions we all need to make when building our own custom airplane. Paul XL barely started Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:07 AM PST US From: mike king Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Detailed Material List --> Zenith-List message posted by: mike king I also don't think the ch701.com materials list includes the rudder, if it does i cant find it,,newbee here, or maybe just a dummy,but i've found alot of good info here from you guy's,, you up the good work --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Efraim Otero" Todd: In ch701.com I found a list of materials. It is under "Builders resources" However, I believe it does not include materials for the gear! It is a good start. If you end up finishing your compilation in excel, I would very much appreciate a copy! If you can, please send it to eotero@bcfcolombia.com Thanks! EFRAIM ----- Original Message ----- From: "CH701" <701stol@gmail.com> Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Detailed Material List > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "CH701" <701stol@gmail.com> > > For "Flat Material" (plans) builders, the Zenith construction manual > states > that no material list is available (4th Edition 2/02, Pg 7). Has anyone > compiled a Bill of Materials from their Plans as suggested? > > I've begun to compile the data in an xls format, but due to the amount of > line items, have realized that the task will take some time, and would > like > to find a shortcut or two... > > Todd > 5th Edition, Rev 2 Plans Builder In Wisconsin > > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:10 AM PST US From: "DICK WILBERS" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DICK WILBERS" A "0" with a line thru it means diameter. Good luck----- Original Message ----- From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" > > I think if you are very meticulous about it, The saw and drill press > method > won't be too crude. > > BTW, I realize this is something I should know, but on the plans for the > bushings 6w4-5, what is the little sign preceeding the one-quarter inch > designation for the hole? Looks like an "O" with a line through it. Does > that mean approximately? As in approximately one-quarter inch? > > Kevin Bonds > > Nashville TN > > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > > Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > > do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > > >> >>Failing that, I'd ask around and see if anyone knows of someone who does >>onesy-twoseys in a backyard shop. Its amazing what you can find, sometimes >>just around the corner, just by asking. Since you have the stock you >>should >>be able to get a reasonable price. >> >>..neil > > > What a great idea, Neil. I do indeed have a lathe that could easily > do the task you mentioned. I might take a different order of > operations though, depending on how many bushings are needed. The > other way would be to cut the cylindrical blanks on a band saw and > then drill each one on the lathe. This would mean you don't have to > do any very deep drilling which can be a big problem. If you want a > really flat and smooth end for the pieces, a facing operation could > be performed on each end of each piece. Also, if you need really > accurate holes in the bushings (which I don't think is the case here) > you can drill slightly undersized holes and ream them on the lathe to > a mirror smooth perfect dimension. > > The trick to getting a low price for this kind of work is to be as > loose as is appropriate in specifying the dimensions needed. If the > length is 13.7 +/- .01 mm the effort needed to make them is a lot > more than if it is 13.7 +/- .5 mm. (It might be better to use inches > instead of millimeters, too.) A similar issue can be said about the > hole - is a drilled hole OK or does it need to be reamed? If this is > just a spacer similar to a thick washer to be bolted in place then > the specifications could be very loose and still be OK. > > If this is really a crude spacer then cutting on a saw and drilling > on a drill press might be just fine. This is just another of the > millions of decisions we all need to make when building our own > custom airplane. > > Paul > XL barely started > > > Paul Mulwitz > 32013 NE Dial Road > Camas, WA 98607 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:57 AM PST US From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: From: Max Koenig Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again Kevin, I've used an average quality 10" power miter saw (black & decker)to cut all types of aluminum including tubing. It works fine with the blade that came with the saw as long as I am patient. It works even better with a quality finish blade, say 60+ teeth in a 10" blade. For those having probems with aluminum building up in the teeth of blades and files, an old trick a blacksmith taught me was to fill the file up with chalk before using it. The chalk keeps the aluminum from building up as quickly and allows quick cleanout and cleanup with file brush. I've gone one better by using soapstone used for marking steel and which can be found at welding supply houses. Almost nothing sticks in the file/blade and allows me to work the aluminum as if it were mild steel. Max Bakersfield, CA, XL, just started -----Original Message----- From: kevinbonds [mailto:kevinbonds@comcast.net] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" . . . . Let me try this again some of my characters did not translate. >>>>>>>> Hey guys I am trying to make part 6w4-5 (center spar spacers). I have some three-quarter inch round stock (6061-T6) that I am trying to cut into 13.7mm pieces (then I have to drill a one-quarter inch hole in the center). I made an embarrassing attempt at this with the band saw (definitely not square). Do you have any experience with or recommendation of a metal cutting sawblade that I could put in my compound miter saw to cut these pieces? I see these things around, but they just seem to have too few teeth. They just look a lot like wood cutting blades. I would be scared as hell to use one of those monsters to cut such a small piece. Seems like I need a thin kerf blade similar to a diamond blade or something but, all of those seem to be for cutting concrete. Seems like, it should have very fine teeth. I am not very experienced with this sort of thing. Please help. Also have some 4130 steel to cut eventually. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:23 AM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain I am getting ready to install a Dynon Angle of Attack pitot tube on my Zodiac 601 XL instead of the one that came from ZAC in the kit. I am planning to also install Dynon's EFIS-D10A and EMS-D10 if they get the compatible kit ready for the Jabiru 3300 I plan to install. My question is, will this pitot tube function properly located at the dimensions shown on the plans for ZAC's pitot tube? Don 601 XL, tail done, finishing up wings ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:05:40 AM PST US From: deanmford@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: O-200 continental as engine choice for CH601 --> Zenith-List message posted by: deanmford@aol.com I am building a 601XL and am still quite a ways from needing an engine. A friend of mine suggested that I could purchase a damaged 1968 cessna 150 that has an engine with >1000 hours left before major overhaul. This is the Continental O-200 engine (100 hp). Would this be a good route to go to obtain an engine for my XL? Would it end up being very heavy? Are there other components (such as instruments) that would transfer into the 601XL? Dean M. Ford working on wings ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yes it will...But.... The but is (and this is for the HDS) the AOA is a bit overkill. The airframe is shaking and vibrating like mad well before the onset of the stall...I don't think no matter how hard I try I have not yet manged to do an accelerated stall in this airplane. I also thing the Dynon EFIS is a bit overkill in this airplane, unless you are going IFR....Not recommended for the HDS at least (might be OK with an autopilot). Just my opinion but I think you will be just as happy with a ASI, Non TSO'd altimeter and turn coordinator...Not that I've ever looked at mine..:) Now what I would do is...Have the mechanical Asi and alt and add a truetrack pictorial pilot (turn coordinator built in) ..It will be about the same money as your spending but a whole lot more pleasant to fly cross country. My 2 cents Frank HDS subaru 375 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain I am getting ready to install a Dynon Angle of Attack pitot tube on my Zodiac 601 XL instead of the one that came from ZAC in the kit. I am planning to also install Dynon's EFIS-D10A and EMS-D10 if they get the compatible kit ready for the Jabiru 3300 I plan to install. My question is, will this pitot tube function properly located at the dimensions shown on the plans for ZAC's pitot tube? Don 601 XL, tail done, finishing up wings ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:52 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com I'm with Frank, Bill ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:50 AM PST US From: "Russell J." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Large Corvair Auction --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Russell J." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Mountain" > For those of you that may be interested in acquiring a > Corvair car or engine for your plane, there is a large > Corvair collection up for auction in Nebraska on > Saturday, August 6 at 10:00 am. The web site is: > > http://www.kuceraauctions.net/ ++++++++++++++++++ I went to the auction Saturday, picked up a couple of motors, 1964, 164cu inch engines, but both of them are 95HP so will have to have the heads changed. Also picked up an extra crankshaft. The two complete engines, plus a third block with crank and half the cylinder sleeves came to $70.00. Junk 1965 thru 1969 cars with motors in them were selling for $25.00 to $40.00, but didn't want to have to make another 200 mile trip to pick them up. Pallets of heads were going for $15.00 and up. If I had realized at the time I was going to need heads I would have bought them all. Russell J. do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:30 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: O-200 continental as engine choice for CH601 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hmm...Don't know what the likelyhood of finding a good O200 is...what about an O235? Either way my gut tells me this could be a very expensive route as you have no idea the internal condition of the engine unless you strip it down. Guy I know did the same with an O320 and ended up spending More than what a Brand new Lycoming clone would have cost...And he still had a second hand engine. Trouble with airplane motors is a rebuild can be several thousand dollars in parts vs a few hundred for a car engine. I think bottom line is there are no cheap options in reality and with a used airplane motor you might get lucky but if you don't..... If it were me I would talk to Mattituck to see if they could make any recommendations....Awesome company (my new IO360 is coming from them) and they deal in some of the smaller motors I believe. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of deanmford@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: O-200 continental as engine choice for CH601 --> Zenith-List message posted by: deanmford@aol.com I am building a 601XL and am still quite a ways from needing an engine. A friend of mine suggested that I could purchase a damaged 1968 cessna 150 that has an engine with >1000 hours left before major overhaul. This is the Continental O-200 engine (100 hp). Would this be a good route to go to obtain an engine for my XL? Would it end up being very heavy? Are there other components (such as instruments) that would transfer into the 601XL? Dean M. Ford working on wings ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:02 AM PST US From: 601corvair Subject: Zenith-List: HD HDS Flaps 0.30 FROM_STARTS_WITH_NUMS From": starts.with.nums@roxy.matronics.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: 601corvair Over the past few years people have posted plans and design mods to put flaps on the center wing. Has anyone got those flying yet? How did they perform? You can post a respond to the list, or off list at airvair601@yahoo.com. thanks for your help phill ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:58 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: O-200 continental as engine choice for CH601 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Dean, If the price is right, the 0-200 is a good installation and the stuff you'd use from the Cessna could sweeten the deal considerably. That's the positive side. The negative side is, parts for the 0-200 are expensive and an overhaul is priced beyond what most will consider. For resale, you're XL will eventually be based on fuel usage, and the 0-200 will drink 6-gallons per hour at $4 -$5 per gallon one day soon. The 912 engine has a large user base and pricing that is better. If you want more for your dollar, you might consider engines that require more hands on, like the Corvair, the Subaru or the Jabaru. My opinion of course, Larry McFarland - 601HDS - Stratus Subaru do not archive deanmford@aol.com wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: deanmford@aol.com > >I am building a 601XL and am still quite a ways from needing an engine. >A friend of mine suggested that I could purchase a damaged 1968 cessna 150 that has an >engine with >1000 hours left before major overhaul. >This is the Continental O-200 engine (100 hp). Would this be a good route to go >to obtain an engine for my XL? Would it end up being very heavy? >Are there other components (such as instruments) that would transfer into the 601XL? > >Dean M. Ford >working on wings > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:07 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HD HDS Flaps From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" UH-oh...Seems like uncle Frank is going to rain on everyone's parade today...:) My question is why? The HDS stalls pretty darned slowly (mine conveniently stalls at 50.99 mph!) so why would you want to got spend a couple of hundred hours designing flaps. Personally I would spend the time reducing the size of the cowl opening (at least if your rad is hanging under the airplane) and realise a significant speed increase....At least I think there are some gains to be had in this department. Frank HDS 370 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 601corvair From:starts.with.nums"@roxy.matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: HD HDS Flaps --> Zenith-List message posted by: 601corvair Over the past few years people have posted plans and design mods to put flaps on the center wing. Has anyone got those flying yet? How did they perform? You can post a respond to the list, or off list at airvair601@yahoo.com. thanks for your help phill ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:20 PM PST US From: "BIANCO Tadeusz Forgacz" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HD HDS Flaps Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:21:34 +0200 (\214rodkowoeuropejs... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "BIANCO Tadeusz Forgacz" I was flying HD with flaps. It stalls 20 km/h lower then without flaps. Also it works like airbrakes, speed will not get higher so quick. It is much easier to plan final approach. I would go on with flaps option. Tadeusz Forgacz 601HD just started -------Original Message------- From: zenith-list@matronics.com nums"@roxy.matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: HD HDS Flaps --> Zenith-List message posted by: 601corvair Over the past few years people have posted plans and design mods to put flaps on the center wing. Has anyone got those flying yet? How did they perform? You can post a respond to the list, or off list at airvair601@yahoo.com. thanks for your help phill ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:18 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >I am getting ready to install a Dynon Angle of Attack >pitot tube on my Zodiac 601 XL instead of the one that >came from ZAC in the kit. I am planning to also >install Dynon's EFIS-D10A and EMS-D10 if they get the >compatible kit ready for the Jabiru 3300 I plan to >install. My question is, will this pitot tube >function properly located at the dimensions shown on >the plans for ZAC's pitot tube? I am planning a similar installation in my XL. If you check with Dynon, you will discover they have a new model which might be better for you than the EFIS-D10. Reading the online version of their users manual, I discovered the AOA feature has a calibration capability, so the original installation location should work fine. I respect Frank's position that this is overkill, but I disagree with him that overkill is a problem. Isn't that what building your own custom airplane is all about? My own thinking is you can get a complete panel for the price of just one or two old-style instruments by using the Dynon EFIS. I don't plan to fly my XL in planned IFR, but I do expect to find myself in a positions where having gyro instruments are useful. I have often been in legal VFR where the whole world looked grey in all directions. I could see traffic to avoid hitting it so it was not IMC, but without gyro instruments I doubt I could keep the plane upright. With Frank's instrumentation approach you could survive by flying needle ball and airspeed, but that is not the easiest thing to do. A full glass panel would be a lot easier to use. On the engine monitor question, my feelings have gone both ways. I start by telling myself "I never pay any attention to engine instruments, so why should I pay for fancy ones." Then it changes to "I never pay any attention to engine instruments, so maybe I should buy ones that pay attention to themselves." The Dynon system is capable of monitoring engine parameters and generating alarms when the engine needs attention. My understanding is the new model system from Dynon allows configuration of some glass panel instruments and some engine sensors all in one unit. I think this gives the ideal solution for less money than the older models offer. Good luck, Paul XL barely started ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:43 PM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hi Frank and Don, As they say-- opinions will vary--. I LOVE my AOA in my HDS taildragger. It shortened my takeoff and landing distance as well as landing speeds. I mounted it on the top of the panel and use it more than any other instument when landing at my short turf strip. When I put full fuel and a fat passenger in the plane it "knows" when it's going to stall or is ready to take off, just as it does when I have minimum weight and differing conditions. Wouldn't be without it. I will readily admit that I didn't know this till I flew with it tho. Best of luck which ever way you instrument the plane. It's a hoot to fly. Ron N601TD 85 hours do not archive Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > >Yes it will...But.... > >The but is (and this is for the HDS) the AOA is a bit overkill. The >airframe is shaking and vibrating like mad well before the onset of the >stall...I don't think no matter how hard I try I have not yet manged to >do an accelerated stall in this airplane. (snip) > > >Frank >HDS subaru 375 hours > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:33 PM PST US From: "Pete Andersen" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HD HDS Flaps Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:21:34 +0200 (\214rodkowoeuropejs... clamav-milter version 0.80j on apollo --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Andersen" The IMU is no longer in restricted testing. It is now considered in Beta testing and, as such, it is no longer restricted to a small set of users. You can register as a user and download the IMU from the WMU website, using the Incident Commanders button, then using the download database option. You will see a link to register and get your copy there. Pete Andersen pla@panderSys.com (503) 807-3419 (C) (503) 985-0446 (H) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BIANCO Tadeusz Forgacz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HD HDS Flaps Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:21:34 +0200 (\214rodkowoeuropejs... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "BIANCO Tadeusz Forgacz" I was flying HD with flaps. It stalls 20 km/h lower then without flaps. Also it works like airbrakes, speed will not get higher so quick. It is much easier to plan final approach. I would go on with flaps option. Tadeusz Forgacz 601HD just started -------Original Message------- From: zenith-list@matronics.com nums"@roxy.matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: HD HDS Flaps --> Zenith-List message posted by: 601corvair Over the past few years people have posted plans and design mods to put flaps on the center wing. Has anyone got those flying yet? How did they perform? You can post a respond to the list, or off list at airvair601@yahoo.com. thanks for your help phill ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:16 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yup overkill is not a problem...Just expensive...:) You are not correct in your assumption that my approach has you flying needle ball and airspeed...Simply hit the auto pilot engage and it flys it for on the current heading you wings perfectly level(and upright..:)..), even in rough turbulenace while you look at the map...Or (more likely) dial in an airport behind you on your handheld GPS and the A/P will take the GPS signal and fly you there. With a good A/P that will take you anywhere you want to go it is hard for me to envisage why you would ever need "gyro" instruments. As to the EMS I agree you can almost save money over steam guages and in time it will make noises when a parameter goes out of range. You will certainly save panel space. Done deal in my mind. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz --> > >I am getting ready to install a Dynon Angle of Attack pitot tube on my >Zodiac 601 XL instead of the one that came from ZAC in the kit. I am >planning to also install Dynon's EFIS-D10A and EMS-D10 if they get the >compatible kit ready for the Jabiru 3300 I plan to install. My >question is, will this pitot tube function properly located at the >dimensions shown on the plans for ZAC's pitot tube? I am planning a similar installation in my XL. If you check with Dynon, you will discover they have a new model which might be better for you than the EFIS-D10. Reading the online version of their users manual, I discovered the AOA feature has a calibration capability, so the original installation location should work fine. I respect Frank's position that this is overkill, but I disagree with him that overkill is a problem. Isn't that what building your own custom airplane is all about? My own thinking is you can get a complete panel for the price of just one or two old-style instruments by using the Dynon EFIS. I don't plan to fly my XL in planned IFR, but I do expect to find myself in a positions where having gyro instruments are useful. I have often been in legal VFR where the whole world looked grey in all directions. I could see traffic to avoid hitting it so it was not IMC, but without gyro instruments I doubt I could keep the plane upright. With Frank's instrumentation approach you could survive by flying needle ball and airspeed, but that is not the easiest thing to do. A full glass panel would be a lot easier to use. On the engine monitor question, my feelings have gone both ways. I start by telling myself "I never pay any attention to engine instruments, so why should I pay for fancy ones." Then it changes to "I never pay any attention to engine instruments, so maybe I should buy ones that pay attention to themselves." The Dynon system is capable of monitoring engine parameters and generating alarms when the engine needs attention. My understanding is the new model system from Dynon allows configuration of some glass panel instruments and some engine sensors all in one unit. I think this gives the ideal solution for less money than the older models offer. Good luck, Paul XL barely started ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:15 PM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: RURUNY@aol.com Don, I'm building a 701 and am using a dynon D-10A. I have the complete pitot installation and after putting it together, it sure is heavy. It may work in same place on a 601 as designed by Zenith but not without a doubler, reinforcement or a panel would be better to open it up for maintenance. With a high wing, someone bumping into the pitot and bending it is a concern, but someone bumping into this thing would rip the skin open like a coke can. I made a complete dynon assembly ready to go on the cover of an access panel, I also made an identical cover but with an ACS pitot with static port. I will use the ACS for first flights and experiment with the dynon setup later. At that point the tube for the static port becomes the AOA tube to the dynon and I will have static ports on the side rear fuselage behind the seats. Any way, in your planning for location make sure you have room for a doubler and the bulky assembly. My access panel/pitot mount also serves as an inspection port for the front strut attachment bolts, a thought in picking its location. Take a look at the pics attached. List people will not get the pics but if you want I will send. Brian _http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/_ (http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:04 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Large Corvair Auction --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez Congratulation, you got an excellent deal. You dont need to change the heads just because they are from a 95hp engine, as long as they are not smog heads. Check your head numbers with WW manual to determine if they are good for conversion. William Dominguez Plansbuilt Zodiac 601XL/Corvair Making parts > ++++++++++++++++++ > > I went to the auction Saturday, picked up a couple > of motors, 1964, 164cu > inch engines, but both of them are 95HP so will have > to have the heads > changed. > Also picked up an extra crankshaft. > The two complete engines, plus a third block with > crank and half the > cylinder sleeves came to $70.00. > Junk 1965 thru 1969 cars with motors in them were > selling for $25.00 to > $40.00, but didn't want to have to make another 200 > mile trip to pick them > up. > Pallets of heads were going for $15.00 and up. If I > had realized at the time > I was going to need heads I would have bought them > all. > > Russell J. > do not archive > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:28 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 1-Week Sport Pilot School --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne Has anyone been able to speak with Jim Pellien about this? I've left messages and sent e-mail and have heard nothing. -- Craig jim wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" > > All, > > My Zenair Zodiac 601XL will be shipped from the Czech Aircraft Works factory by the end of this week. > > I plan to use it to satisfy the demand for sport pilot training. See the attached Powerpoint file for the details of the 1-Week Sport Pilot Immersion Course that we will begin offering at the Bryce Mountain Resort in Virginia starting in September. I had a tremendous response from people who visited the SportsPlanes.com booth at Oshkosh. It seems that this is exactly what they have been looking for. I talked to an insurance underwriter at Oshkosh, and he felt that this was something that they'd like to see more flight schools do. > > Here are the details: > > - Semi-Private Instruction: One instructor for 2 students for 7 full days. > - 20 hours flight instruction and solo flight time (if your instructor signs you off for solo). The FAA minimum flight time requirement for SP (15 hours dual and 5 hours solo) > - All ground school materials including a King SP training package. > - Ground School "Plus": We have a ton of videotapes and DVD's from Sporty's that address all manner of aviation topics for the students to explore during the week....you'll learn far more than the FAA's minimum requirement. You'll learn how to assess weather and other flight risks to assist you with "GO / NO-GO" decision making, making you a much safer pilot. > - You'll learn how to access and use all of the online aviation data that is currently available free of charge. > - You will get a checkride with a flight examiner (if you have progressed far enough in your training....again the instructor's call). I REPEAT: Some students will NOT get a checkride nor a SP Certificate. Everybody learns at a different pace. The decision on a checkride will be made by your instructor. > - Lodging in the 4BR/4BA "Golf and Ski View Chalet" (private bedroom and private bath) is included. The Chalet is directly across the street from the Sky Bryce (VG18) private airport and walking distance to the ski slopes and golf course, as well as the restaurant, swimming pool and tennis courts. For pictures and other information about the chalet please go to: www.pellien.com > - Bring your spouse and kids along if you wish...maximum of 2 kids. They can enjoy all of the resort's amenities while you are learning to fly. Go to: www.bryceresort.com to learn more about the Bryce Mountain Resort. > - "Flying Couples" get a 10% discount off the single person course fee of $4290. Thus couples can take the course together for a total of $7722. > - If weather conditions are such that you do not get the minimum of 20 flight hours, you will receive a refund of $70 per hour for every flight hour that you do not receive. If you wish to fly more than 20 hours in your week and there is time available, you can fly additional hours for $100 per hour with instructor, or $70 solo. > - You'll be learning in a high performance light sport aircraft, the Zodiac 601XL (130+ mph, 1000 FPM Climb, 586 lbs useful load) with a 44 inch wide and comfortable cockpit with leather seats, radio, transponder, GPS etc. I know that SP students don't need the radios and navigation equipment.....it is a bonus for them. When the aircraft is unavailable due to 100 hour inspections or maintenance, a Cessna 172 will be substituted for some of the non-solo flight hours on those days. > > It is well-known that people best learn foreign languages in an "immersive" environment, i.e. they go to live in Italy to learn Italian. I similarly believe that SP students will be better and safer pilots by learning immersively. This course gives you 168 hours in the nation called "Sport Pilot Aviation". 168 hours of access to a seasoned aviation professional. No more going to the airport for an hour lesson, then coming back a week or 2 weeks later for your next lesson, by which time you have forgotten 50% of what you learned on the previous lesson. You'll learn more, retain more, and progress faster, by going "immersive". > > I'm currently taking $1000 deposits. Only 2 slots are available each week. The school will run continuously from mid-September on. We are planning to operate year-round: Friday afternoon to Friday afternoon is the week. > > I'm interested in signing up a couple of additional seasoned CFI's with more than 1000 hours of instruction time under their belts to do these 7-day courses. Anybody interested? > > Jim > > > Jim Pellien > Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes > www.MASPL.com > 703-313-4818 > jim@sportsplanes.com > > > Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 26 Msgs - 08/07/05 From: morganfarm@medinaec.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: morganfarm@medinaec.com please change my e-mail address to morganfm@prontonet.net ----- Original Message ----- Sent : Sun, 7 Aug 2005 23:58:29 -0700 To : Zenith-List Digest List Subject : Zenith-List Digest: 26 Msgs - 08/07/05 > * ================================================== Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================== Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-08- 07.html Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-08- 07.txt ================================================ EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================ Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/07/05: 26 Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:14 AM - 601 Engine Compartment (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 2. 03:58 AM - Re: Cutting 6061-T6 (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 04:11 AM - Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (Monty Graves) 4. 06:58 AM - Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (Larry) 5. 06:58 AM - Re: (Larry) 6. 10:50 AM - Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (kevinbonds) 7. 11:55 AM - Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (Paul Mulwitz) 8. 12:39 PM - Cutting 4130N (George Swinford) 9. 12:41 PM - Re: metal cutting-let me try it again () 10. 02:47 PM - Cutting 4130N (Brandon Tucker) 11. 03:14 PM - Re: Cutting 4130N (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 05:19 PM - Re: 601 Engine Compartment (Bill Cardell) 13. 05:19 PM - strobe/nav light wiring (Brad Cohen) 14. 05:36 PM - Re: Cutting 4130N (cummings@stingray.net) 15. 05:37 PM - Cutting 4130N (Brandon Tucker) 16. 06:13 PM - Re: strobe/nav light wiring (Bryan Martin) 17. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (nhulin) 18. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (Paul Mulwitz) 19. 09:09 PM - Re: Re: Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (kevinbonds) 20. 09:30 PM - Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (kevinbonds) 21. 09:33 PM - Re: Re: Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (kevinbonds) 22. 09:35 PM - Re: Cutting 4130N (kevinbonds) 23. 09:39 PM - Re: Cutting 4130N (kevinbonds) 24. 09:47 PM - Re: Re: Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (kevinbonds) 25. 09:56 PM - Re: Cutting 4130N (kevinbonds) 26. 10:03 PM - Re: Re: Re: metal cutting-let me try it again (Randy L. Thwing) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:40 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Engine Compartment --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Dear Thread friends, today was a very good day for flying. I have been concerned about the temperature inside the engine compartment especially for the rectifier and mags. How hot does it get in there ? My friend Harold and I rigged a digital temperature gauge in the engine box at the rectifier, near the firewall. Flew 1.6 hours pretty hard from 3 to 5 K alt, different speed ranges and never got the temp above 123 deg F. Most of the time it was near 110 F. Outside temperature in compartment before start up was 99 degrees F so running the 3300 didn't add much. Hope this eases some minds about plumping all kinds of air ducts all over the compartment to cool stuff. It probably isn't really necessary. FWIW, Bill of Georgia 601XL-3300w/DC ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:37 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting 6061-T6 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I couldn't read your message completely - some of the special characters were translated before it got to me. So, some of my answer is rather vague. You should be able to cut aluminum using the same tools you would use for hard wood. I would prefer carbide blades over steel teeth, but that may not be necessary. (I use carbide blades on wood too.) If you were cutting steel, it would be important that the tooth pitch on your blades makes two teeth always in contact with the part you are cutting. That means to cut a one sixteenth inch thick part you need a tooth count greater than 16 per inch. This doesn't seem as important when cutting softer materials like wood or aluminum. You definitely need blades with teeth rather than abrasive blades like the kind used for cutting ceramics. Abrasive blades will fill up very quickly with relatively soft materials like aluminum. I have never used a chop saw on small pieces of aluminum, but you should be able to do it if the parts are properly supported so they don't jump at you when the blade hits them. I would prefer a band saw since it does not tend to make parts jump because the blade moves directly against the table. I don't know why you should have trouble making square cuts with a band saw. It could be your blade tension is not tight enough. It could be you are not feeding the parts straight into the blade (holding the part with pliers might help with this - so long as you keep the pliers away from the teeth). It could be your blade is not square to the table. I keep a high tooth count blade in my band saw for cutting aluminum parts from thin sheets (in this case thin means .040 or so - thinner gets cut with shears). In the band saw I don't use carbide teeth, but I do use hardened "Bi-metal" teeth. The resulting cuts need filing to be really smooth since the teeth "Set" leaves noticeable grooves in the cut part. Still, I think this is the quickest and easiest way to cut many parts. If I have missed the point of your question, please ask again. If you avoid using special characters it will make your question easier to read. Paul XL barely started >I=92m trying to make part 6w4-5 (center spar spacers). I have some =BE inch >round stock (6061-T6) that I=92m trying to cut into 13.7mm pieces (then I have >to drill a =BC inch hole in the center). I made an embarrassing attempt at >this with the band saw (definitely not square). Do you have any experience >with or recommendation of a metal cutting sawblade that I could put in my >compound miter saw to cut these pieces? I see these things around, but they >just seem to have too few teeth. They just look a lot like wood cutting >blades. I would be scared as hell to use one of those monsters to cut such a >small piece. Seems like I need a thin kerf blade similar to a diamond blade >or something but, all of those seem to be for cutting concrete. Seems like, >it should have very fine teeth. I=92m not very experience with this sort of >thing. Please help. Also have some 4130 steel to cut eventually. > > >Kevin Bonds > >Nashville TN --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:37 AM PST US From: Monty Graves Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves Any good carbide tooth wood blade (the more teeth the smoother the finish) will cut alum stock. Either on a table saw or your power miter saw. Secure it either with clamps, or make a wood shelf to hold the round stock and cut the shelf and the alum at the same time. I have cut 3/4 round stock and plate on both my table saw and power miter saw. Leave it a faction long to sand smooth. Safety first. SLOW FEED, and CLAMP and watch your fingers wear eye protection. Lots of little chips. Monty At 01:01 AM 8/7/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" > >. . . . Let me try this again some of my characters did not translate. > >>>>>>>> > >Hey guys > >I am trying to make part 6w4-5 (center spar spacers). I have some >three-quarter inch >round stock (6061-T6) that I am trying to cut into 13.7mm pieces (then I >have to drill a one-quarter inch hole in the center). I made an embarrassing >attempt at this with the band saw (definitely not square). Do you have any >experience with or recommendation of a metal cutting sawblade that I could >put in my >compound miter saw to cut these pieces? I see these things around, but they >just seem to have too few teeth. They just look a lot like wood cutting >blades. I would be scared as hell to use one of those monsters to cut such a >small piece. Seems like I need a thin kerf blade similar to a diamond blade >or something but, all of those seem to be for cutting concrete. Seems like, >it should have very fine teeth. I am not very experienced with this sort of >thing. Please help. Also have some 4130 steel to cut eventually. > > >Kevin Bonds > >Nashville TN > >601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > >Empennage done; working on wings and engine. >http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:08 AM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" Measure and drill all you holes first, before cutting the tubing. Then use a plumbers pipe cutting tool. You know, one of them things you manually spin around and around while increasing the pressure with the turn knob. They are real cheap and make a perfect cut. Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" > > . . . . Let me try this again some of my characters did not translate. > >>>>>>>> > > Hey guys > > I am trying to make part 6w4-5 (center spar spacers). I have some > three-quarter inch > round stock (6061-T6) that I am trying to cut into 13.7mm pieces (then I > have to drill a one-quarter inch hole in the center). I made an embarrassing > attempt at this with the band saw (definitely not square). Do you have any > experience with or recommendation of a metal cutting sawblade that I could > put in my > compound miter saw to cut these pieces? I see these things around, but they > just seem to have too few teeth. They just look a lot like wood cutting > blades. I would be scared as hell to use one of those monsters to cut such a > small piece. Seems like I need a thin kerf blade similar to a diamond blade > or something but, all of those seem to be for cutting concrete. Seems like, > it should have very fine teeth. I am not very experienced with this sort of > thing. Please help. Also have some 4130 steel to cut eventually. > > > Kevin Bonds > > Nashville TN > > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > > Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > > -- > > -- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:08 AM PST US From: "Larry" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" You can e-mail Zenith and they will give you a list of builders in TN. I did it for the 701 in Arkansas, and there are 15 of us fine fellers in Arkansas. Zenith is really nice to do things like that. Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Zenith-List: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Hi all, I'm new to the list . I am a 601XL Builder from Mcewen,TN. are their any Builders in TN.? > > > -- > > -- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:26 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Larry I had not thought of that for my tubing (I have some of those tubing cutters), but my question was about solid bar stock (sorry I was not clear). I will try that technique with the little steel tubing I was referring to at the end of my post. Think it will work with 4130. I'm thinking about the one-quarter inch X .028 4130N for the rudder bushings etc. Hadn't gotten that far yet, but don't know if it would have dawned on me to use one of those. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Subject: Re: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" Measure and drill all you holes first, before cutting the tubing. Then use a plumbers pipe cutting tool. You know, one of them things you manually spin around and around while increasing the pressure with the turn knob. They are real cheap and make a perfect cut. Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:03 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > Think it will work with 4130. I'm thinking about the >one-quarter inch X .028 4130N for the rudder bushings etc. Hadn't gotten >that far yet, but don't know if it would have dawned on me to use one of >those. I have not tried to cut 4130 for many years, but I remember it is nearly impossible to cut. In the past the only luck I have had with it is using some sort of grinding wheel like the kind mounted on Dremel tools. I don't think you will have much luck cutting that stuff with any sort of saw, and I am afraid the pipe cutting tool won't even make a scratch. I am sure there are experts on cutting 4130 out there in the tube and fabric airplane world. Part of the reason for building an aluminum plane is so you don't have to deal with 4130 tubing. Good luck, Paul XL barely started ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:34 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" 4130n cuts very nicely with a hacksaw or metal-cutting bandsaw. Of course, a reinforced cutoff wheel in the Dremel tool works well also. George ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:10 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: 4130 can be cut with a tubing cutter. Just make sure you don't side load the cutter while you spin it. Then dress it on a wheel or sander. For the solid bar aluminum stock, I would cut it with a hack saw and dress it on a sanding wheel to square it up. My combo 8" delta disk and 1" x 42 belt sander tool works very well for dressing aluminum parts and making them square and it has been worth its weight in gold during my build. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" > > Larry > > I had not thought of that for my tubing (I have some of those tubing > cutters), but my question was about solid bar stock (sorry I was not clear). > I will try that technique with the little steel tubing I was referring to at > the end of my post. Think it will work with 4130. I'm thinking about the > one-quarter inch X .028 4130N for the rudder bushings etc. Hadn't gotten > that far yet, but don't know if it would have dawned on me to use one of > those. > > Kevin Bonds > > Nashville TN > > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > > Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > > do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" > > Measure and drill all you holes first, before cutting the tubing. Then use > a plumbers pipe cutting tool. You know, one of them things you manually > spin around and around while increasing the pressure with the turn knob. > They are real cheap and make a perfect cut. > Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kevinbonds" > To: > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:51 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Kevin, You can buy an abrasive disk blade for a standard chop saw, and it will cut it like butta'. If you like tools like I do, you can also get one of these: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44829 This blade is only 7" and will probably fit into most chop saws: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=90403 -You would have to check on arbor size though. It says masonry blade, but I know from experience that it will work for metal, just not last as long. I did a lot of cutting and drilling 4130 while fabricating my mechanical brake actuators and rudder pedals. The problem I was running into was burning up my drill bits. Have a couple of good ones handy, and lubricate / cool well while drilling. R/ Brandon Tucker 601 hds airframe complete corvair built building header tank and starting wiring ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:52 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >4130n cuts very nicely with a hacksaw or metal-cutting bandsaw. Of >course, a reinforced cutoff wheel in the Dremel tool works well also. I got curious about this issue and did a search on the EAA builder's web site for cutting 4130. The only tool reference I found called for a "Cuttoff Saw". I think this is similar to a circular miter saw but uses an abrasive blade instead of one with teeth. (They also said if you are building a tube and fabric plane you will want a notcher.) Paul XL barely started do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:10 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Engine Compartment From: "Bill Cardell" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell" Good info. FWIW, it's usually in the 140-150 range for car underhood temps. TurboDog's Dad Bill Cardell www.flyinmiata.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Engine Compartment --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Dear Thread friends, today was a very good day for flying. I have been concerned about the temperature inside the engine compartment especially for the rectifier and mags. How hot does it get in there ? My friend Harold and I rigged a digital temperature gauge in the engine box at the rectifier, near the firewall. Flew 1.6 hours pretty hard from 3 to 5 K alt, different speed ranges and never got the temp above 123 deg F. Most of the time it was near 110 F. Outside temperature in compartment before start up was 99 degrees F so running the 3300 didn't add much. Hope this eases some minds about plumping all kinds of air ducts all over the compartment to cool stuff. It probably isn't really necessary. FWIW, Bill of Georgia 601XL-3300w/DC ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:48 PM PST US From: "Brad Cohen" Subject: Zenith-List: strobe/nav light wiring --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brad Cohen" O.K. So I need some remedial electrical instruction; I have the combination aeroflash/position light option from ZAC but having trouble figuring out the wiring. There are four wires coming out of the position light. Three attach to the capacitor via the supplied connector. Then there is a solitary red wire from the position light. From the capacitor, in addition to the three wire clip already mentioned, there is a black ground and a red power wire. My ASSUMPTION is the black ground wire runs to the airframe and the two red wires (one from the position light, the other from the capacitor) are connected then run via the white, single strand wire provided in the kit to the power bus, thus completing the curcuit because the power bus will be grounded to the airframe. But to test the light and the capacitor before installing, I run the combined red wires to battery positive and black (ground) to battery negative, right?...Please let me know (off list is fine) if my assumptions are correct Thanks Brad Cohen 601XL 5-6803 Do not archieve ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:37 PM PST US From: cummings@stingray.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: cummings@stingray.net On Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Paul Mulwitz wrote: > I got curious about this issue and did a search on the EAA builder's > web site for cutting 4130. The only tool reference I found called In some old back issues of their mag I saw a reference to using a pipe cutter, i.e. the ones you use to cut copper tubing. Buy a good one and cut, it's fine. You get a cleaner cut and if it's a good one you might be able to cut all the tubing for a fuselage, I know I did for my Wag Aero Sportsman 2+2. Now, the downside, the tubing diameter will be slightly reduced where you cut it, depends on how much pressure you used. For the most part you can cut tubing almost as quickly as with a chop saw this way. -- Matthew P. Cummings 1974 Cessna 150L N10667 Moberly, MO (MBY) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:27 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Paul, You are correct. I also use my horizontal bandsaw to cut 4130, but an abrasive disc cutoff saw like the one I previously posted about works best. Since you mentioned a notcher, I will comment there as well. Make sure you buy a good quality notcher and a very good quality hole saw. The one I bought does not work very well, and I find that a 4" disk grinder works much faster. A lathe with a notching tool works best, but I don't have the cash for a lathe... Yet... R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: strobe/nav light wiring From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin You have two separate circuits involved here, the nav light and the strobe light. I would not wire them to a common power wire as you may want to turn off the strobe light either to avoid blinding other pilots on the ground at night or to eliminate a potentially disorientating condition if you happen to fly into hazy conditions at night. I would run a wire from the nav light red wire to a nav light switch and a separate wire from the flash unit red wire to a strobe light switch. In addition to the black ground wire from the flash unit, you will need to connect a ground wire to the shell of the nav light if you plan on mounting it on a fiberglass wing tip fairing. For simple lighting circuits, using the airframe as ground is acceptable. In these circuits, the black wires are to be connected to the negative side of the battery and the red wires to the positive side. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. on 8/7/05 8:13 PM, Brad Cohen at bradfnp@msn.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brad Cohen" > > O.K. > So I need some remedial electrical instruction; > > > My ASSUMPTION is the black ground wire runs to the airframe and the two red > wires (one from the position light, the other from the capacitor) are > ... > > Brad Cohen > 601XL 5-6803 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:44 PM PST US From: "nhulin" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" On Sat Aug 06 at 11:03 PM, kevinbonds (kevinbonds@comcast.net) wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" I am trying to make part 6w4-5 (center spar spacers). I have some three-quarter inch round stock (6061-T6) that I am trying to cut into 13.7mm pieces (then I have to drill a one-quarter inch hole in the center). Kevin, I know that you are asking about a recommendation for a saw blade but the simplest and best way to make these would be to ask the guys in your EAA chapter if anyone has a lathe who can help you out. This is trivial with the right tools. Centre drill and run the 0.250" hole down the middle, then use a parting off tool to cut them very accurately. The lathe will ensure that the spacers have parallel sides which will be important for ensuring that the assembled structure is carrying the loads correctly. Failing that, I'd ask around and see if anyone knows of someone who does onesy-twoseys in a backyard shop. Its amazing what you can find, sometimes just around the corner, just by asking. Since you have the stock you should be able to get a reasonable price. ..neil 601XL/Corvair Electrical and stuff ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:44 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" > >I know that you are asking about a recommendation for a saw blade but the >simplest and best way to make these would be to ask the guys in your EAA >chapter if anyone has a lathe who can help you out. This is trivial with the >right tools. Centre drill and run the 0.250" hole down the middle, then use >a parting off tool to cut them very accurately. The lathe will ensure that >the spacers have parallel sides which will be important for ensuring that >the assembled structure is carrying the loads correctly. > >Failing that, I'd ask around and see if anyone knows of someone who does >onesy-twoseys in a backyard shop. Its amazing what you can find, sometimes >just around the corner, just by asking. Since you have the stock you should >be able to get a reasonable price. > >..neil What a great idea, Neil. I do indeed have a lathe that could easily do the task you mentioned. I might take a different order of operations though, depending on how many bushings are needed. The other way would be to cut the cylindrical blanks on a band saw and then drill each one on the lathe. This would mean you don't have to do any very deep drilling which can be a big problem. If you want a really flat and smooth end for the pieces, a facing operation could be performed on each end of each piece. Also, if you need really accurate holes in the bushings (which I don't think is the case here) you can drill slightly undersized holes and ream them on the lathe to a mirror smooth perfect dimension. The trick to getting a low price for this kind of work is to be as loose as is appropriate in specifying the dimensions needed. If the length is 13.7 +/- .01 mm the effort needed to make them is a lot more than if it is 13.7 +/- .5 mm. (It might be better to use inches instead of millimeters, too.) A similar issue can be said about the hole - is a drilled hole OK or does it need to be reamed? If this is just a spacer similar to a thick washer to be bolted in place then the specifications could be very loose and still be OK. If this is really a crude spacer then cutting on a saw and drilling on a drill press might be just fine. This is just another of the millions of decisions we all need to make when building our own custom airplane. Paul XL barely started Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:59 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Thanks for all the replies on and off list. I bought a 60teeth thin kerf wood cutting blade at The Home Depot. I think it may work. I just have to come up with a way to clamp it down tight so it does not creep. I held it by hand (carefully) and cut some pieces but it creeped on me ever so slightly (about .2mm) leaving a slight ridge that you can just feel. If you score it precisely and place a tooth absolutely perfectly on that mark it is possible to cut it accurately. My third try would have been perfect had it not creeped a little. Came out 13.5mm instead of 13.7mm. Yeah . . . I am surprised I could get it that accurate too! I have thought about using this as an excuse to buy a lathe though. :) Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nhulin Subject: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" On Sat Aug 06 at 11:03 PM, kevinbonds (kevinbonds@comcast.net) wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" I am trying to make part 6w4-5 (center spar spacers). I have some three-quarter inch round stock (6061-T6) that I am trying to cut into 13.7mm pieces (then I have to drill a one-quarter inch hole in the center). Kevin, I know that you are asking about a recommendation for a saw blade but the simplest and best way to make these would be to ask the guys in your EAA chapter if anyone has a lathe who can help you out. This is trivial with the right tools. Centre drill and run the 0.250" hole down the middle, then use a parting off tool to cut them very accurately. The lathe will ensure that the spacers have parallel sides which will be important for ensuring that the assembled structure is carrying the loads correctly. Failing that, I'd ask around and see if anyone knows of someone who does onesy-twoseys in a backyard shop. Its amazing what you can find, sometimes just around the corner, just by asking. Since you have the stock you should be able to get a reasonable price. ..neil 601XL/Corvair Electrical and stuff ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:35 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" I have a disk sander, thought about that as well. Just need lots of sandpaper disks as I'm sure they will load up quickly. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of davgray@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: 4130 can be cut with a tubing cutter. Just make sure you don't side load the cutter while you spin it. Then dress it on a wheel or sander. For the solid bar aluminum stock, I would cut it with a hack saw and dress it on a sanding wheel to square it up. My combo 8" delta disk and 1" x 42 belt sander tool works very well for dressing aluminum parts and making them square and it has been worth its weight in gold during my build. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" > > Larry > > I had not thought of that for my tubing (I have some of those tubing > cutters), but my question was about solid bar stock (sorry I was not clear). > I will try that technique with the little steel tubing I was referring to at > the end of my post. Think it will work with 4130. I'm thinking about the > one-quarter inch X .028 4130N for the rudder bushings etc. Hadn't gotten > that far yet, but don't know if it would have dawned on me to use one of > those. > > Kevin Bonds > > Nashville TN > > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > > Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > > do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" > > Measure and drill all you holes first, before cutting the tubing. Then use > a plumbers pipe cutting tool. You know, one of them things you manually > spin around and around while increasing the pressure with the turn knob. > They are real cheap and make a perfect cut. > Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kevinbonds" > To: > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: metal cutting-let me try it again > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:11 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" I think if you are very meticulous about it, The saw and drill press method won't be too crude. BTW, I realize this is something I should know, but on the plans for the bushings 6w4-5, what is the little sign preceeding the one-quarter inch designation for the hole? Looks like an "O" with a line through it. Does that mean approximately? As in approximately one-quarter inch? Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >Failing that, I'd ask around and see if anyone knows of someone who does >onesy-twoseys in a backyard shop. Its amazing what you can find, sometimes >just around the corner, just by asking. Since you have the stock you should >be able to get a reasonable price. > >..neil What a great idea, Neil. I do indeed have a lathe that could easily do the task you mentioned. I might take a different order of operations though, depending on how many bushings are needed. The other way would be to cut the cylindrical blanks on a band saw and then drill each one on the lathe. This would mean you don't have to do any very deep drilling which can be a big problem. If you want a really flat and smooth end for the pieces, a facing operation could be performed on each end of each piece. Also, if you need really accurate holes in the bushings (which I don't think is the case here) you can drill slightly undersized holes and ream them on the lathe to a mirror smooth perfect dimension. The trick to getting a low price for this kind of work is to be as loose as is appropriate in specifying the dimensions needed. If the length is 13.7 +/- .01 mm the effort needed to make them is a lot more than if it is 13.7 +/- .5 mm. (It might be better to use inches instead of millimeters, too.) A similar issue can be said about the hole - is a drilled hole OK or does it need to be reamed? If this is just a spacer similar to a thick washer to be bolted in place then the specifications could be very loose and still be OK. If this is really a crude spacer then cutting on a saw and drilling on a drill press might be just fine. This is just another of the millions of decisions we all need to make when building our own custom airplane. Paul XL barely started Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:00 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Yeah Mathew I have noticed the tendency for these tools to reduce the diameter as well. Especially the thin walled stuff. I will watch out for that. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cummings@stingray.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: cummings@stingray.net On Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Paul Mulwitz wrote: > I got curious about this issue and did a search on the EAA builder's > web site for cutting 4130. The only tool reference I found called In some old back issues of their mag I saw a reference to using a pipe cutter, i.e. the ones you use to cut copper tubing. Buy a good one and cut, it's fine. You get a cleaner cut and if it's a good one you might be able to cut all the tubing for a fuselage, I know I did for my Wag Aero Sportsman 2+2. Now, the downside, the tubing diameter will be slightly reduced where you cut it, depends on how much pressure you used. For the most part you can cut tubing almost as quickly as with a chop saw this way. -- Matthew P. Cummings 1974 Cessna 150L N10667 Moberly, MO (MBY) ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:37 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" How are you guys keeping all these abrasive blades and grinding wheels from loading up with aluminum? I have never had any luck with this. I tried using (by hand) a honing stone today to clean up my cut. It quickly turned silver with aluminum sludge. Once it does that it isn't good for crap. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Paul, You are correct. I also use my horizontal bandsaw to cut 4130, but an abrasive disc cutoff saw like the one I previously posted about works best. Since you mentioned a notcher, I will comment there as well. Make sure you buy a good quality notcher and a very good quality hole saw. The one I bought does not work very well, and I find that a 4" disk grinder works much faster. A lathe with a notching tool works best, but I don't have the cash for a lathe... Yet... R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:47 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" . . . neil You should know better than to suggest to a "plans builder" that they have someone else do it for them. :) Were too stubborn! . . .Then I'd have to admit that I didn't make everything on the plane. BTW can anyone tell me the process for smelting aluminum?! LOL. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nhulin Subject: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" On Sat Aug 06 at 11:03 PM, kevinbonds (kevinbonds@comcast.net) wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" I am trying to make part 6w4-5 (center spar spacers). I have some three-quarter inch round stock (6061-T6) that I am trying to cut into 13.7mm pieces (then I have to drill a one-quarter inch hole in the center). Kevin, I know that you are asking about a recommendation for a saw blade but the simplest and best way to make these would be to ask the guys in your EAA chapter if anyone has a lathe who can help you out. This is trivial with the right tools. Centre drill and run the 0.250" hole down the middle, then use a parting off tool to cut them very accurately. The lathe will ensure that the spacers have parallel sides which will be important for ensuring that the assembled structure is carrying the loads correctly. Failing that, I'd ask around and see if anyone knows of someone who does onesy-twoseys in a backyard shop. Its amazing what you can find, sometimes just around the corner, just by asking. Since you have the stock you should be able to get a reasonable price. ..neil 601XL/Corvair Electrical and stuff ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:47 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Sorry Brandon . . . Just realized you were talking about 4130. duh. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinbonds Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" How are you guys keeping all these abrasive blades and grinding wheels from loading up with aluminum? I have never had any luck with this. I tried using (by hand) a honing stone today to clean up my cut. It quickly turned silver with aluminum sludge. Once it does that it isn't good for crap. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Cutting 4130N --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Paul, You are correct. I also use my horizontal bandsaw to cut 4130, but an abrasive disc cutoff saw like the one I previously posted about works best. Since you mentioned a notcher, I will comment there as well. Make sure you buy a good quality notcher and a very good quality hole saw. The one I bought does not work very well, and I find that a 4" disk grinder works much faster. A lathe with a notching tool works best, but I don't have the cash for a lathe... Yet... R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:09 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: RE: metal cutting-let me try it again --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" If the line goes from one edge of the "O" through the center to the other edge it simply means "diameter" or the distance from one edge of the circle to the other. If the line only goes from the center of the circle to the edge, it means "radius" (half a diameter, or half a circle). Randy, Las Vegas what is the little sign preceeding the one-quarter inch > designation for the hole? Looks like an "O" with a line through it. Does > that mean approximately? As in approximately one-quarter inch? ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:27 PM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: To Paint Or Not To Paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" Gentlemen and builders... :), I would like some opinions about painting. I have just about finished all the control surfaces, wings, stabilizer, etc.... I have a serious space problem in that I'm quickly running out of space.... What are the advantages and disadvantages of painting the component parts and then attaching them to the completed fuselage (if I get that far before the rapture)? I would think that an advantage would be ease of getting to all surfaces, but what are the disadvantages? I am sort of leaning toward painting those surfaces now, but would like the opinions of those who've been there, done that... Thanks, Tommy Walker in Alabama ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:36 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: To Paint Or Not To Paint From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Rapture not withstanding here it is as I see it... Not to paint..... 1) It NEVER will be painted...If you think your going to take the plane down for 3 months so you can squirt paint at it...Good luck, I didn't...:) 2) Paint job will weigh 30 to 40lbs 3) It's a LOT of work to paint...and you've done enough! 4) There is a distinct pleasure in "lowering the tone" when you park it between two Lear jets. 5) Having the line boy drop a red carpet square by your plane for you to exit onto is just hilarious (Note...I was tempted to pick up carpet square to wipe oil streak off the cowl) 6) you never worry about the paint job 7) burns less fuel 8) You can carry more gear. 9) Its easier to see the high quality of your workmanship 10) "Proper" airplane owners can't believe your rate of climb from such a piece of junk...He he, then they watch you take off. 11) Paint trys to kill you 12) Paint is expensive To paint.... 1) It looks pretty 2) You get less grief from the Wife...You might be ugly but that's more acceptable somehow? 3) you get to play with more toys...I mean tools..:) Frank HDS 370 hours...Building an RV 7A...yes it HAS to be painted...:( -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tommy Walker Subject: Zenith-List: To Paint Or Not To Paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" Gentlemen and builders... :), I would like some opinions about painting. I have just about finished all the control surfaces, wings, stabilizer, etc.... I have a serious space problem in that I'm quickly running out of space.... What are the advantages and disadvantages of painting the component parts and then attaching them to the completed fuselage (if I get that far before the rapture)? I would think that an advantage would be ease of getting to all surfaces, but what are the disadvantages? I am sort of leaning toward painting those surfaces now, but would like the opinions of those who've been there, done that... Thanks, Tommy Walker in Alabama ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:02 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To Paint Or Not To Paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Tommy, You should probably paint it now, because if you wait till you've flown it you'll find it's really hard to paint when the adrenalin says "FLY!". I wanted to paint this spring, after just a few flights and it's August already, nearly time to fly to ZACs Open House. Well, there isn't time to paint till after that trip, ,,,,,,,so September maybe? Larry McFarland - 601HDS do not archive Tommy Walker wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" > >Gentlemen and builders... :), > > >I would like some opinions about painting. I have just about finished all >the control surfaces, wings, stabilizer, etc.... I have a serious space >problem in that I'm quickly running out of space.... > >What are the advantages and disadvantages of painting the component parts >and then attaching them to the completed fuselage (if I get that far before >the rapture)? I would think that an advantage would be ease of getting to >all surfaces, but what are the disadvantages? > >I am sort of leaning toward painting those surfaces now, but would like the >opinions of those who've been there, done that... > >Thanks, > >Tommy Walker in Alabama > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: CAM100, belt noise? From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau Some latest updates regarding my noise in my CAM100... I am now reasonably certain that it is associated with the cogbelt, not a bearing. That makes more sense. I've been studing all I can get my hands on regarding belt tensioning, and I'm surprised that a properly tuned belt is probably a lot tighter than I have been setting mine. The CAM100 manual says that a too tight belt will cause extra wear on the bearings, and a too loose belt will produce extra wear on the belt along with vibrations - I think this may apply to my noise. The original manufacturer's system of setting belt tension calls for applying 20 lbs of lateral force on the belt to get 3/16" movement. That seems awfully tight to me -- and it's very difficult/impossible to get the little measuring 'hook' onto the belt when the engine is actually installed in the airplane.... and of course by the time I've made any adjustments, the temperature of the belt housing has cooled so it's probably no longer accurate anyways. The current manufacturer agrees that it' more practical to find that 'sweet spot' where the prop has exactly zero play at the tip when the engine is at running temp (i.e. immediately after shutdown). This means that it has about 1/8" tip movement when cold. Also, according to one article I found online, a cog belt will get tighter with higher rpm as centrifugul force increases, so even if the belt is initially adjusted on the loose side of perfect, it becomes 'better' as more power is passed through it (at least that's how I interpretted the chart). So I believe that the ideal tension is for it to be as close to the perfect tension, or just slightly less. So, anyways, I'm flying it again and so far, so good. Thanks again to all list members for tips, encouragment and ongoing helps in this unique adventure of building, flying and maintaining a self-built airplane. An experience full of highs and lows! -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:47 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" On the subject of autopilots, anyone have concerns about the hinge-less aileron system putting unnecessary strain on an autopilot? I'm thinking of going the hinged route because of this. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yes it will...But.... The but is (and this is for the HDS) the AOA is a bit overkill. The airframe is shaking and vibrating like mad well before the onset of the stall...I don't think no matter how hard I try I have not yet manged to do an accelerated stall in this airplane. I also thing the Dynon EFIS is a bit overkill in this airplane, unless you are going IFR....Not recommended for the HDS at least (might be OK with an autopilot). ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:23 PM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 1-Week Sport Pilot School --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" Craig, What do you want to know? Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 1-Week Sport Pilot School --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne Has anyone been able to speak with Jim Pellien about this? I've left messages and sent e-mail and have heard nothing. -- Craig jim wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" > > All, > > My Zenair Zodiac 601XL will be shipped from the Czech Aircraft Works factory by the end of this week. > > I plan to use it to satisfy the demand for sport pilot training. See the attached Powerpoint file for the details of the 1-Week Sport Pilot Immersion Course that we will begin offering at the Bryce Mountain Resort in Virginia starting in September. I had a tremendous response from people who visited the SportsPlanes.com booth at Oshkosh. It seems that this is exactly what they have been looking for. I talked to an insurance underwriter at Oshkosh, and he felt that this was something that they'd like to see more flight schools do. > > Here are the details: > > - Semi-Private Instruction: One instructor for 2 students for 7 full days. > - 20 hours flight instruction and solo flight time (if your instructor signs you off for solo). The FAA minimum flight time requirement for SP (15 hours dual and 5 hours solo) > - All ground school materials including a King SP training package. > - Ground School "Plus": We have a ton of videotapes and DVD's from Sporty's that address all manner of aviation topics for the students to explore during the week....you'll learn far more than the FAA's minimum requirement. You'll learn how to assess weather and other flight risks to assist you with "GO / NO-GO" decision making, making you a much safer pilot. > - You'll learn how to access and use all of the online aviation data that is currently available free of charge. > - You will get a checkride with a flight examiner (if you have progressed far enough in your training....again the instructor's call). I REPEAT: Some students will NOT get a checkride nor a SP Certificate. Everybody learns at a different pace. The decision on a checkride will be made by your instructor. > - Lodging in the 4BR/4BA "Golf and Ski View Chalet" (private bedroom and private bath) is included. The Chalet is directly across the street from the Sky Bryce (VG18) private airport and walking distance to the ski slopes and golf course, as well as the restaurant, swimming pool and tennis courts. For pictures and other information about the chalet please go to: www.pellien.com > - Bring your spouse and kids along if you wish...maximum of 2 kids. They can enjoy all of the resort's amenities while you are learning to fly. Go > - "Flying Couples" get a 10% discount off the single person course fee of $4290. Thus couples can take the course together for a total of $7722. > - If weather conditions are such that you do not get the minimum of 20 flight hours, you will receive a refund of $70 per hour for every flight hour that you do not receive. If you wish to fly more than 20 hours in your week and there is time available, you can fly additional hours for $100 per hour with instructor, or $70 solo. > - You'll be learning in a high performance light sport aircraft, the Zodiac 601XL (130+ mph, 1000 FPM Climb, 586 lbs useful load) with a 44 inch wide and comfortable cockpit with leather seats, radio, transponder, GPS etc. I know that SP students don't need the radios and navigation equipment.....it is a bonus for them. When the aircraft is unavailable due to 100 hour inspections or maintenance, a Cessna 172 will be substituted for some of the non-solo flight hours on those days. > > It is well-known that people best learn foreign languages in an "immersive" environment, i.e. they go to live in Italy to learn Italian. I similarly believe that SP students will be better and safer pilots by learning immersively. This course gives you 168 hours in the nation called "Sport Pilot Aviation". 168 hours of access to a seasoned aviation professional. No more going to the airport for an hour lesson, then coming back a week or 2 weeks later for your next lesson, by which time you have forgotten 50% of what you learned on the previous lesson. You'll learn more, retain more, and progress faster, by going "immersive". > > I'm currently taking $1000 deposits. Only 2 slots are available each week. The school will run continuously from mid-September on. We are planning to operate year-round: Friday afternoon to Friday afternoon is the week. > > I'm interested in signing up a couple of additional seasoned CFI's with more than 1000 hours of instruction time under their belts to do these 7-day courses. Anybody interested? > > Jim > > > Jim Pellien > Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes > www.MASPL.com > 703-313-4818 > jim@sportsplanes.com > > > Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:32 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 1-Week Sport Pilot School --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne This is what I asked in an e-mail I sent to you last Thursday: I am *very* interested in your course. I've accumulated 40 hours of flight time in a conventional private pilot course but can't go further because I can't legally solo in the C172 and my 601XL is 80-90% done. So I need an LSA, Sport Pilot instructor and flight examiner in one place and it sounds like your offering will provide that. I don't mind repeating much of my training because I am a slow learner and the XL is a different bird from the C172. Will your XL be fitted with dual sticks? One thing you don't mention is the written SP exam. Will it be possible to take that during the week's training? What will it do to your schedule if the delivery of your plane is delayed? P.S. your PowerPoint presentation was stripped by the BBS software from your posting on the Zenith list. Can you put it somewhere on the Web so it can be downloaded and/or e-mail me a copy? Please reply by e-mail or phone: 435-649-3789, Utah. -- Craig Jim Pellien wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" > > Craig, > > What do you want to know? > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 1-Week Sport Pilot School > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne > > Has anyone been able to speak with Jim Pellien about this? I've left > messages and sent e-mail and have heard nothing. > > -- Craig > > jim wrote: > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" >> >>All, >> >>My Zenair Zodiac 601XL will be shipped from the Czech Aircraft Works > > factory by the end of this week. > >>I plan to use it to satisfy the demand for sport pilot training. See the > > attached Powerpoint file for the details of the 1-Week Sport Pilot Immersion > Course that we will begin offering at the Bryce Mountain Resort in Virginia > starting in September. I had a tremendous response from people who visited > the SportsPlanes.com booth at Oshkosh. It seems that this is exactly what > they have been looking for. I talked to an insurance underwriter at Oshkosh, > and he felt that this was something that they'd like to see more flight > schools do. > >>Here are the details: >> >>- Semi-Private Instruction: One instructor for 2 students for 7 full > > days. > >>- 20 hours flight instruction and solo flight time (if your instructor > > signs you off for solo). The FAA minimum flight time requirement for SP (15 > hours dual and 5 hours solo) > >>- All ground school materials including a King SP training package. >>- Ground School "Plus": We have a ton of videotapes and DVD's from > > Sporty's that address all manner of aviation topics for the students to > explore during the week....you'll learn far more than the FAA's minimum > requirement. You'll learn how to assess weather and other flight risks to > assist you with "GO / NO-GO" decision making, making you a much safer > pilot. > >>- You'll learn how to access and use all of the online aviation data that > > is currently available free of charge. > >>- You will get a checkride with a flight examiner (if you have progressed > > far enough in your training....again the instructor's call). I REPEAT: > Some students will NOT get a checkride nor a SP Certificate. Everybody > learns at a different pace. The decision on a checkride will be made by > your instructor. > >>- Lodging in the 4BR/4BA "Golf and Ski View Chalet" (private bedroom and > > private bath) is included. The Chalet is directly across the street from the > Sky Bryce (VG18) private airport and walking distance to the ski slopes and > golf course, as well as the restaurant, swimming pool and tennis courts. For > pictures and other information about the chalet please go to: > www.pellien.com > >>- Bring your spouse and kids along if you wish...maximum of 2 kids. They > > can enjoy all of the resort's amenities while you are learning to fly. Go > to: www.bryceresort.com to learn more about the Bryce Mountain Resort. > >>- "Flying Couples" get a 10% discount off the single person course fee of > > $4290. Thus couples can take the course together for a total of $7722. > >>- If weather conditions are such that you do not get the minimum of 20 > > flight hours, you will receive a refund of $70 per hour for every flight > hour that you do not receive. If you wish to fly more than 20 hours in your > week and there is time available, you can fly additional hours for $100 per > hour with instructor, or $70 solo. > >>- You'll be learning in a high performance light sport aircraft, the > > Zodiac 601XL (130+ mph, 1000 FPM Climb, 586 lbs useful load) with a 44 inch > wide and comfortable cockpit with leather seats, radio, transponder, GPS > etc. I know that SP students don't need the radios and navigation > equipment.....it is a bonus for them. When the aircraft is unavailable due > to 100 hour inspections or maintenance, a Cessna 172 will be substituted for > some of the non-solo flight hours on those days. > >>It is well-known that people best learn foreign languages in an > > "immersive" environment, i.e. they go to live in Italy to learn Italian. I > similarly believe that SP students will be better and safer pilots by > learning immersively. This course gives you 168 hours in the nation called > "Sport Pilot Aviation". 168 hours of access to a seasoned aviation > professional. No more going to the airport for an hour lesson, then coming > back a week or 2 weeks later for your next lesson, by which time you have > forgotten 50% of what you learned on the previous lesson. You'll learn > more, retain more, and progress faster, by going "immersive". > >>I'm currently taking $1000 deposits. Only 2 slots are available each > > week. The school will run continuously from mid-September on. We are > planning to operate year-round: Friday afternoon to Friday afternoon is the > week. > >>I'm interested in signing up a couple of additional seasoned CFI's with > > more than 1000 hours of instruction time under their belts to do these 7-day > courses. Anybody interested? > >>Jim >> >> >>Jim Pellien >>Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes >>www.MASPL.com >>703-313-4818 >>jim@sportsplanes.com >> >> >>Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:59 PM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: To Paint Or Not To Paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page Tommy, I'll chime in here and say paint it now. I was trying to decide myself and after speaking with others I opted to paint before the trip to the field. I'm happy I did now because I'm having way too much fun flying. I could not imagine taking it apart and back to the shop just to paint it. Yes, painting (actually, the prep work) is a lot of work but if you take your time you can get good results. Mine is by far not a professional job but I get compliments on the paint all the time. Paint the main parts separately (rudder, stab, wings, fuse) then put them together but not after you have fitted everything first!! This helps a lot if you are doing 2+ tone paint schemes. One suggestion though, if I was to do it over again I would wait to paint my cowling. My internal rad configuration for the 912 has needed some tinkering and additions and I had to repaint the cowling once I got things sorted out. Trev Page C-IDUS 601HD R912 17 hours On Aug 8, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Tommy Walker wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" > > > Gentlemen and builders... :), > > > I would like some opinions about painting. I have just about > finished all > the control surfaces, wings, stabilizer, etc.... I have a serious > space > problem in that I'm quickly running out of space.... > > What are the advantages and disadvantages of painting the component > parts > and then attaching them to the completed fuselage (if I get that > far before > the rapture)? I would think that an advantage would be ease of > getting to > all surfaces, but what are the disadvantages? > > I am sort of leaning toward painting those surfaces now, but would > like the > opinions of those who've been there, done that... > > Thanks, > > Tommy Walker in Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:59 PM PST US From: "Jim Pellien" Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Sport Pilot School - --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" Craig, Please either send me an off-board message: jim@sportsplanes.com or call me at 703-851-9375 and leave a message with your telephone number. I'm very busy at this time of the year but will return your call within 24 hours. We will be starting the 1-week Immersion Sport Pilot course in the 4th week of September if the 601XL SLSA delivery takes place in the 2nd or third week of September as presently planned. See attached newly updated 2-page flyer that describes the course. We changed the curriculum slightly so that the student first takes and passes the written test before coming to take the flight school. In this way, the student already has a feel for flying before they arrive. Also, they can then concentrate on the flight portion of the curriculum without distractions. On bad-weather days they can study any of the many DVDs in our aviation library. For those of you that are already pilots and just want some stick-time and a 601XL checkout, you can come for our 2-day familiarization course (only available when there is no immersion course underway). You'll get 6 hours of dual flight time, a semi-private instructor at your beck and call for 2 days, lodging for 2 nights and a copy of the 601XL pilots operating handbook. The price for this 2-day familiarization course is $1190. Jim Jim Pellien Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes 703-851-9375 (cell) 703-313-4818 (office) www.pellien.com/maspl.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 1-Week Sport Pilot School --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne Has anyone been able to speak with Jim Pellien about this? I've left messages and sent e-mail and have heard nothing. -- Craig jim wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jim" > > All, > > My Zenair Zodiac 601XL will be shipped from the Czech Aircraft Works factory by the end of this week. > > I plan to use it to satisfy the demand for sport pilot training. See the attached Powerpoint file for the details of the 1-Week Sport Pilot Immersion Course that we will begin offering at the Bryce Mountain Resort in Virginia starting in September. I had a tremendous response from people who visited the SportsPlanes.com booth at Oshkosh. It seems that this is exactly what they have been looking for. I talked to an insurance underwriter at Oshkosh, and he felt that this was something that they'd like to see more flight schools do. > > Here are the details: > > - Semi-Private Instruction: One instructor for 2 students for 7 full days. > - 20 hours flight instruction and solo flight time (if your instructor signs you off for solo). The FAA minimum flight time requirement for SP (15 hours dual and 5 hours solo) > - All ground school materials including a King SP training package. > - Ground School "Plus": We have a ton of videotapes and DVD's from Sporty's that address all manner of aviation topics for the students to explore during the week....you'll learn far more than the FAA's minimum requirement. You'll learn how to assess weather and other flight risks to assist you with "GO / NO-GO" decision making, making you a much safer pilot. > - You'll learn how to access and use all of the online aviation data that is currently available free of charge. > - You will get a checkride with a flight examiner (if you have progressed far enough in your training....again the instructor's call). I REPEAT: Some students will NOT get a checkride nor a SP Certificate. Everybody learns at a different pace. The decision on a checkride will be made by your instructor. > - Lodging in the 4BR/4BA "Golf and Ski View Chalet" (private bedroom and private bath) is included. The Chalet is directly across the street from the Sky Bryce (VG18) private airport and walking distance to the ski slopes and golf course, as well as the restaurant, swimming pool and tennis courts. For pictures and other information about the chalet please go to: www.pellien.com > - Bring your spouse and kids along if you wish...maximum of 2 kids. They can enjoy all of the resort's amenities while you are learning to fly. Go > - "Flying Couples" get a 10% discount off the single person course fee of $4290. Thus couples can take the course together for a total of $7722. > - If weather conditions are such that you do not get the minimum of 20 flight hours, you will receive a refund of $70 per hour for every flight hour that you do not receive. If you wish to fly more than 20 hours in your week and there is time available, you can fly additional hours for $100 per hour with instructor, or $70 solo. > - You'll be learning in a high performance light sport aircraft, the Zodiac 601XL (130+ mph, 1000 FPM Climb, 586 lbs useful load) with a 44 inch wide and comfortable cockpit with leather seats, radio, transponder, GPS etc. I know that SP students don't need the radios and navigation equipment.....it is a bonus for them. When the aircraft is unavailable due to 100 hour inspections or maintenance, a Cessna 172 will be substituted for some of the non-solo flight hours on those days. > > It is well-known that people best learn foreign languages in an "immersive" environment, i.e. they go to live in Italy to learn Italian. I similarly believe that SP students will be better and safer pilots by learning immersively. This course gives you 168 hours in the nation called "Sport Pilot Aviation". 168 hours of access to a seasoned aviation professional. No more going to the airport for an hour lesson, then coming back a week or 2 weeks later for your next lesson, by which time you have forgotten 50% of what you learned on the previous lesson. You'll learn more, retain more, and progress faster, by going "immersive". > > I'm currently taking $1000 deposits. Only 2 slots are available each week. The school will run continuously from mid-September on. We are planning to operate year-round: Friday afternoon to Friday afternoon is the week. > > I'm interested in signing up a couple of additional seasoned CFI's with more than 1000 hours of instruction time under their belts to do these 7-day courses. Anybody interested? > > Jim > > > Jim Pellien > Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes > www.MASPL.com > 703-313-4818 > jim@sportsplanes.com > > > Sent via the WebMail system at Engage IT > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:28 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: To Paint Or Not To Paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Tommy, I went through the same debate a few months ago. I decided to paint while I go. When I built the fuselage, I assembled the rear fuse bottom section, and the center wing section and painted them both separately before joining them at the rear zee. I will have to go back and airbrush the rivets to get a perfect job, but I doubt I will - it is a taildragger, and you will only see the rivets if you are on your back! I also painted the rudder and horizontal stab / elevator as separate pieces, and the entire cockpit area and baggage area. This tactic is working well for my homemade paint booth. (Tarps stapled to the four sides of my garage door while it is up.) Prepping and painting the parts as you go along gives you a great sense of satisfaction, is easier to do, and breaks up the paint and prep time. It is a significant amount of effort, but when broken up, it isn't so bad. Etching and alodining is much easier to do with smaller pieces as well. If you wait until after testing phase is complete, odds are pretty good that you will have small oil and fuel leaks / spills to clean before paint, and a lot of dirt. The only down side that I can come up with is that you will inevitably scratch the paint in a few areas during final assembly. I already have in the c/p. I feel this to be a very small price to pay for the convenience of painting in pieces. R/ Brandon Tucker ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:36 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Blue Mountain EFIS lite --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Gents, I was going to go with the Dynon unit until I ran across this: http://bluemountainavionics.com/elitemain.php -The built in GPS and ILS input gives it a little more functionality than the Dynon unit. I have a Lowrance airmap 1000 that I was going to mount on the panel, but will just sell it to make up the difference in the price between the Dynon and the Lite. You can even add an autopilot for another $3500. I am also going with the stratomaster e1 ems: http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/MaxiSingles/maxisingles.html Look down about half of the page. It is for a Corvair with two heads and and exhaust manifold that's design minimizes the affectiveness of individual EGT's, so I think 2 and 2 is sufficient. These instruments combined get me into the IFR arena with the ILS radio that I already have for about $3000, including engine stuff. Before we get into the IFR in the Zodiac debate, no, I do not plan on doing hard IFR in it. I live on the coast near San Diego, and popping through the marine layer opens up a lot of flying days that would otherwise not be an option. -Just thought I would share my panel ideas. Comments are welcome. R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:55 PM PST US From: "jackyager" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jackyager" I need to respectfully disagree with Frank. The Dynon is perfect for VFR. And since it's not TSOed, you can't use it for IFR. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:35 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Blue Mountain EFIS lite --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > These instruments combined get me into the IFR >arena with the ILS radio that I already have for about >$3000, including engine stuff. Before we get into the >IFR in the Zodiac debate, no, I do not plan on doing >hard IFR in it. I live on the coast near San Diego, >and popping through the marine layer opens up a lot of >flying days that would otherwise not be an option. I like the Blue Mountain unit too, but I think the Dynon new model might be nicer. Either way the glass cockpit is the direction I will go (in 14 years when I finish my plane). I don't have any problem with the idea of flying a Zodiac IFR - - except that I can't do it. I don't have the rating (although I could probably pass all the necessary tests). More importantly, I don't have a medical certificate and plan on living with the Sport Pilot limitations which means no IFR. I suppose I could break the rules, but I just don't plan to do that. In the early 1980's my boss had a Globe Swift that had been modified by changing from an 85 hp engine to a 145. Alas, he still had the original fuel tanks. That meant he carried a maximum of 2 hours of fuel. He flew his Swift in hard IFR frequently and thought nothing of it. BTW the Swift is a lot more responsive than a Zodiac. Also, it is extremely common for military pilots to fly really nasty fighters in hard IFR and this has been the case ever since they invented IFR. I don't see why a Zodiac can't do this. Just as an academic question, though, I wonder if it is "Legal" to fly an experimental plane with non-TSO'd instruments like the Dynon or Blue Mountain gizmos in the system. Perhaps someone knows the answer to this one? One more comment . . . my years in the electronics business tell me to hold off from buying any electronic stuff until I am ready to install it and use it. I have seen every kind of electronic equipment go up in features and down in price with each passing year. I presume this will be the case with glass cockpit equipment too. Paul XL barely started ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:23 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru CHT wire routing From: "Lance Gingell" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" Thanks to all the replies I got on this topic, both on and off line. Per a Jabiru example - I routed the wires over the fins. Tie-wrapped to a hole drilled in one fin, and another on a lower fin. Taped wires together. They clear the ramair ducts. Here's the pics of mine http://wls1.lancegingell.com/largeplaneimages/DSC05925.jpg http://wls1.lancegingell.com/largeplaneimages/DSC05926.jpg ..lance http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:56 PM PST US From: xl Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl I hesitated before my post.......... I know that some say the trademark 'hinge-less' ailerons cause more stick force. But, I don't agree with that. On the ground my stick goes stop to stop (right to left) with very little effort. The additional stick force in the air is aerodynamic - I think, and I don't see it changing with hinges. Yeah, I've been wrong before. (Don't forget to oil the torque rod - that makes big difference.) I like the trademark aileron hinges. Lots of folks recognize them as Chris Heintz's work. Joe E N633Z @ BFI 237 hours CH601XL, Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x48 wood prop On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, kevinbonds wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" > > On the subject of autopilots, anyone have concerns about the hinge-less > aileron system putting unnecessary strain on an autopilot? I'm thinking of > going the hinged route because of this. > > Kevin Bonds > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:58 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: hinge-less with autopilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Cool Joe. Thanks for the info. I have been under the impression that the forces where considerably stiffer. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of xl Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack Pitot tube location --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl I hesitated before my post.......... I know that some say the trademark 'hinge-less' ailerons cause more stick force. But, I don't agree with that. On the ground my stick goes stop to stop (right to left) with very little effort. The additional stick force in the air is aerodynamic - I think, and I don't see it changing with hinges. Yeah, I've been wrong before. (Don't forget to oil the torque rod - that makes big difference.) I like the trademark aileron hinges. Lots of folks recognize them as Chris Heintz's work. Joe E N633Z @ BFI 237 hours CH601XL, Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x48 wood prop On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, kevinbonds wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" > > On the subject of autopilots, anyone have concerns about the hinge-less > aileron system putting unnecessary strain on an autopilot? I'm thinking of > going the hinged route because of this. > > Kevin Bonds > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:32 PM PST US From: "Efraim Otero" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inflight adjustable prop --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Efraim Otero" List: Where can I find info regarding this WoodComp Inflight adjustable prop? Regards, EFRAIM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Zenith-List: Inflight adjustable prop > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" > > Hi folks, > > besides fixing the tach other thing I did today was to add a limit switch > for the Woodcomp prop. The prop is flight-adjustable with reverse option > (which makes the plane stop in a heart beat on a short runway). However, > the guys in my flying club were just scared of the reverse option. We had > an accident last year with a plane with the same prop, when two guys came > in long. One pilot decided to go around, the other guy activated the > reverse switch. They made it 60 ' into the air.... Plane was totaled, but > the guys walked away with minor injuries. Also last year we lost two guys > in a crash with a brand new airplane and the same prop. The cause of the > accident is still not clear, but my flying buddies suspect the reverse > option. > > In order to put the prop in reverse I now have to pull up a safety cap and > activate the reverse switch. In addition, the throttle has to be in the > idle position (limit switch). Guess, that will pretty much make sure, that > the reverse will not come on during flight. > > Happy building / flying > > Thilo Kind > > >