---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/12/05: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:44 AM - Welder (Dave & Darlene) 2. 06:07 AM - Re: Welder (Steve Russell) 3. 06:31 AM - Re: Welder (N5SL) 4. 06:32 AM - Re: Comparison: 601XL: Continental O-200 (Schemmel, Grant) 5. 06:55 AM - Canadian airports (Carlos Sa) 6. 07:37 AM - Re: Comparison: 601XL: Continental O-200 (JAPhillipsGA@AOL.COM) 7. 07:44 AM - Re: Welder (Brandon Tucker) 8. 08:01 AM - Re: Welder (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: Welder (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 10. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Welder (jnbolding1) 11. 10:14 AM - High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Don Mountain) 12. 11:02 AM - Re: Welder (Larry McFarland) 13. 11:05 AM - Re: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Carlos Sa) 14. 11:26 AM - Re: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 11:28 AM - Re: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Lincoln Probst) 16. 11:36 AM - Looking for 701 builders in Washington State (Joe Scheibinger) 17. 11:38 AM - Re: Welder (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 18. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: Welder (Randy L. Thwing) 19. 12:30 PM - Re: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Don Mountain) 20. 12:58 PM - Re: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Paul Mulwitz) 21. 02:22 PM - 601xl thrust line (ken smith) 22. 02:27 PM - RFI Redrives (ABGS) 23. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: Welder (Larry McFarland) 24. 04:40 PM - TV Drill (fred sanford) 25. 05:11 PM - Re: TV Drill (CH701) 26. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: Welder (ron wehba) 27. 05:29 PM - Re: 601xl thrust line (N5SL) 28. 05:57 PM - Re: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Rick Tedford) 29. 08:03 PM - Fw: Dynon Angle of Attack (Carl Bertrand) 30. 10:00 PM - Re Re: Welder / 4130 filler rod (Brandon Tucker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:19 AM PST US From: "Dave & Darlene" Subject: Zenith-List: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" Hi List Canadian Tire is selling there Mig for $579, $200 savings. It's 175amp. Is this a big enough unit for the welding in the XL or 701 that a guy has to do. I've been looking for some time now and and watching for deals. Any thoughts Dave Alberta 701 Soon to be started 601XL (on hold) 99% to go tail parts bent and ready www.borrowmyhusband.com/Nimigon_601XL ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:01 AM PST US From: "Steve Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Russell" My understanding is that MIG welding is undesirable for aircraft welding and that TIG or acelyn? is the preferred method. Steve 701 plans ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Dave & Darlene" >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" > >Hi List >Canadian Tire is selling there Mig for $579, $200 savings. It's 175amp. Is this a big enough unit for the welding in the XL or 701 that a guy has to do. I've been looking for some time now and and watching for deals. Any thoughts > >Dave >Alberta >701 Soon to be started >601XL (on hold) >99% to go >tail parts bent and ready >www.borrowmyhusband.com/Nimigon_601XL > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:09 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Hi Dave: There's not much on the 601XL that allowed me to use my MIG welder. The main gear brackets are beefy enough to be MIG welded but I followed up with the gas welder anyway. Any of the welding on Chromoly like the engine mount, the yoke, torque tube canopy steel, steps, etc. was done with my gas welder. I hope this helps, Scott. Dave & Darlene wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" Hi List Canadian Tire is selling there Mig for $579, $200 savings. It's 175amp. Is this a big enough unit for the welding in the XL or 701 that a guy has to do. I've been looking for some time now and and watching for deals. Any thoughts Dave Alberta 701 Soon to be started 601XL (on hold) 99% to go tail parts bent and ready www.borrowmyhusband.com/Nimigon_601XL --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:16 AM PST US From: "Schemmel, Grant" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Comparison: 601XL: Continental O-200 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Schemmel, Grant" Maybe I can help out here a bit, as I am currently flying behind a '68 O-200 from a wrecked 150. I ended up completely overhauling the engine myself, under the occasional supervision of an A&P buddy, who then signed off the engine log for me. When it came time to do the airworthiness inspection, I borrowed a certified Flowtorp prop from the same guy and arranged for the DAR inspection. I don't know for sure if the combination of the two were ever actually certified together, but the guy had used it on a Davis w/ an O-200 in the past. Anyway, the DAR had no problem with the combination on my plane, and signed it off with a 25hr flight test period. Just as a side note, it was a rotten combination w/ the zodiac, resulting in very poor performance. I'm now running a 3-blade Warp Drive and am much happier (tho not completely, faster! faster! ;-)) Just my 2 cents I guess. Grant Schemmel Penrose, CO Time: 11:49:04 AM PST US From: "Paul Moore" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Comparison: 601XL: Continental O-200 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" I'm not exactly sure either. I know that it has to be a certified engine and prop combination (ie - is a certified set on a production aircraft). For example, a Cont. O-200A and Sensenich 69CKS12-0-50L is a certified combination on a C150L so if I use that combo on my XL, I'm only required to perform a 25 hour fly off. I don't think my uncertified rebuild has any impact on that because I'm allowed to do that type of maintenance on my experimental/homebuilt. At least, that's my understanding. Paul XL - O200 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:29 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: Canadian airports --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, all A while back, somebody created an application that would list airports near a given city. That application was made available to all through a web page. I forget who did it, my apologies. The only drawback is that the database included (includes) only USA airports. Canada wasn't included for lack of free coordinate data. Well, I found today just that info: it is available as a spreadsheet in this web site (along with other good stuff): "Airports in Canada", owned by George Plews, a Flight Service Specialist. http://www.plews.ca/AirportsinCanada.htm Cheers Carlos Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:38 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Comparison: 601XL: Continental O-200 --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Grant, the other part of the question is as the engine prop combo was certified when the plane was signed off on by the DAR can you do maintenance on the engine (100 hour, tear downs and such) or do you have to have the A&P do it ? Our at least have him sign off on your work ? Best regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:37 AM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Dave, I have a mig, tig, and gas. The only one I used to build the HDS was the tig. To weld aluminum affectively, you have to use tig. It can be done with a mig and pure Argon shielding gas, but the result is substandard to tig. This only comes into play if you build you own gas tanks. To weld 4130 properly, you have to use 4130 welding rod. I'm sure you can get a spool for a mig, but since it is more expensive, you would probably want to switch it out while welding mid steel. Having said that, you can weld 4130 with mild steel rod, but it's strength would be slightly compromised. -Not something I am was willing to do for axles / torque plates / tailwheel spring mounting components / ect... I figured I should use the rod it was engineered for. If mig is setup properly, it can weld steel well, but it too often has insufficient penetration. If you are a tool addict like some of us, I would recommend looking into a tig. The prices are coming down for inverter style tigs. If you don't think you would get your money's worth, ask around at your local EAA meetings. There is usually someone that has one. I offered up my welding services to my chapter, and have been called upon several times. It is all part of the homebuilding brotherhood... R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Welder From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I'm not an expert in this department but I thought that the FAA does not approve (like we really care!) the use of MIG welding on 4130, there might be a good reason for this however. Personally I wouldn't do it unless somone could categorically prove that it was OK. Gas welding requires that it be brought slowely up to temperature by heating the surrounding metal gradually. If you think about it this is impossible to do with MIG. Besides gas welding is so much more satisfying somehow....:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Hi Dave: There's not much on the 601XL that allowed me to use my MIG welder. The main gear brackets are beefy enough to be MIG welded but I followed up with the gas welder anyway. Any of the welding on Chromoly like the engine mount, the yoke, torque tube canopy steel, steps, etc. was done with my gas welder. I hope this helps, Scott. Dave & Darlene wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" Hi List Canadian Tire is selling there Mig for $579, $200 savings. It's 175amp. Is this a big enough unit for the welding in the XL or 701 that a guy has to do. I've been looking for some time now and and watching for deals. Any thoughts Dave Alberta 701 Soon to be started 601XL (on hold) 99% to go tail parts bent and ready www.borrowmyhusband.com/Nimigon_601XL --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Welder From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Good for you Brandon, I too have met lots of builders with broken parts in their hands with worried looks on their faces...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Dave, I have a mig, tig, and gas. The only one I used to build the HDS was the tig. To weld aluminum affectively, you have to use tig. It can be done with a mig and pure Argon shielding gas, but the result is substandard to tig. This only comes into play if you build you own gas tanks. To weld 4130 properly, you have to use 4130 welding rod. I'm sure you can get a spool for a mig, but since it is more expensive, you would probably want to switch it out while welding mid steel. Having said that, you can weld 4130 with mild steel rod, but it's strength would be slightly compromised. -Not something I am was willing to do for axles / torque plates / tailwheel spring mounting components / ect... I figured I should use the rod it was engineered for. If mig is setup properly, it can weld steel well, but it too often has insufficient penetration. If you are a tool addict like some of us, I would recommend looking into a tig. The prices are coming down for inverter style tigs. If you don't think you would get your money's worth, ask around at your local EAA meetings. There is usually someone that has one. I offered up my welding services to my chapter, and have been called upon several times. It is all part of the homebuilding brotherhood... R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:02 AM PST US From: "jnbolding1" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker < > To weld 4130 properly, you have to use 4130 welding rod. >Brandon That is blatantly a false statement. I know you said later that mild steel is ok but would give a slightly inferior joint. I have asked this question of several aeronautical engineers and WITHOUT FAIL they all said that unless the part is going to be heat treated USE A MILD STEEL ROD. During an engineering meeting with Dave Thurston (designer of the Teal Amphibian, Trojan Amphib and most of the Lake Amphib) several years ago on a project I hired him to do for us this subject came up. I showed him a landing gear drawing he had done several years prior that speced 4130 rod along side the note that the complete gear leg was to be heat treated. His reply was that mild steel filler was superior to 4130 in areas that were NOT to be heat treated due to being less brittle. He said that it is hard to design a joint that does NOT have more than ample area and length for mild filler . Someone else mentioned that the FAA does not allow MIG welding, you better tell American Champion to quit using it on the Decathalons. As Smokey Unick once said "Most experts aren't" John ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:09 AM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain I am finishing up the wings on my 601 XL, and a friend told me to consider High-Intensity Discharge (HID) Xenon, or Metal Halide Lamps for the landing and taxi lights. One supplier I found on the internet is: http://www.xevision.com/ Has anybody tried these and have any comment on them? Are they worth the money? It looks like they may be brighter than the ZAC supplied bulbs, burn less power, and last a lot longer. Don 601 XL, tail done, finishing up wings ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:42 AM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Dave, I'd recommend you obtain and use the Oxyacetylene process. Using a drawn steel copper coated rod will have lesser properties than the 4130, but will alloy itself with the 4130 and because of the welds larger cross section, it will become better suited to the task. Welds with 4130 rod tend to be hard and crack. Expansion and contraction need the mild rod to act as a stress reliever. MIG lacks control for a weld that is more demanding and critical to safety. OK for stock cars, but not aircraft. I'd recommend if you need to weld electronically, use TIG. I love TIG and the control it affords, but it's expensive if you're not going to use it a lot. I welded 25 years with gas and did 2 tube-structure aircraft before buying an electric welder and still use the gas torch half the time. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Dave & Darlene wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" > >Hi List >Canadian Tire is selling there Mig for $579, $200 savings. It's 175amp. Is this a big enough unit for the welding in the XL or 701 that a guy has to do. I've been looking for some time now and and watching for deals. Any thoughts > >Dave >Alberta >701 Soon to be started >601XL (on hold) >99% to go >tail parts bent and ready >www.borrowmyhusband.com/Nimigon_601XL > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:29 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Don, there are some posts on this subject, see the archive. I believe they can't be put on a wig-wag configuration. Carlos do not archive --- Don Mountain wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain > > I am finishing up the wings on my 601 XL, and a friend > told me to consider High-Intensity Discharge (HID) > Xenon, or Metal Halide Lamps for the landing and taxi > lights. One supplier I found on the internet is: > > http://www.xevision.com/ > > Has anybody tried these and have any comment on them? > Are they worth the money? It looks like they may be > brighter than the ZAC supplied bulbs, burn less power, > and last a lot longer. > > Don > 601 XL, tail done, finishing up wings > > > > > > > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" For me it's a question of "how bright do you need landing lights?" and what do you need them for? If you want to be seen then install a wig-wag flasher....$35 from B&C and others. Very cheap very effective and saves power. Can't be used on HID lighting...so I'm told. If you want to see the runway...Well from my experience landing lights are almost useless in this regard...they give you a faint glow of the tarmac just before you hit it...well ok kinda useful but not much in my experience. To me a twice as bright HID is still pretty close to useless but you added weight and spent more money. You could simply add two more standard landing lights for say 30bucks and just switch them on on final...Just use the battery to drive them, no need to upsize your alternator for these. Probably be less weight to?? Just a thought Frank --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain I am finishing up the wings on my 601 XL, and a friend told me to consider High-Intensity Discharge (HID) Xenon, or Metal Halide Lamps for the landing and taxi lights. One supplier I found on the internet is: http://www.xevision.com/ Has anybody tried these and have any comment on them? Are they worth the money? It looks like they may be brighter than the ZAC supplied bulbs, burn less power, and last a lot longer. Don 601 XL, tail done, finishing up wings ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:35 AM PST US From: Lincoln Probst Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Lincoln Probst I was considering xevision, but the light is expensive... and I called them to see if I could just get a reflector and that went over like a lead balloon and left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. They do recommend using the DS1 type of bulb because then you don't have a high voltage lead and is therefore minimizes/eliminates potential for electromagnetic interference. I ended up getting two aftermarket HID lights and talking to Duckworks to get a reflector for them. Benefits of HID are: 1) 3200Lumens bright [55 W halogen is 1000Lumens] 2) no filament to break, 3000hr "on" life [btw you can make halogens last longer by running 2amps through them all the time, makes the filament more pliable and last longer] 3) Less amperage. runs at about 3amps @ 12volts(35watts) Pitfalls: 1) cost: my kit for TWO DS1 bulbs(ignighter built-in) with ballest etc was about $400 2) Can't "Wig-Wag" them... although xevision seems to have solved that. They take about 20-40seconds to come to full brightness(making the metal salts vapor similar to a mercury lamp) 3) Difficult to find a reflector that fits the DS1 bulbs and is suitable for an airplane. Some have used the Accura TL square reflector but I don't know the angle it sends light. They are typically fog lights and at too wide an angle. Something that reflects the light at about 7 to 10degrees would work best. Auto stuff also seems to have legal restrictions from having their "bright" lights be HID as it is too bright and blinds oncoming cars. Bottom line half the power, 3 times the light, many times the cost... http://www.duckworksaviation.com/ made a holder for the DS1 bulbs against a 4" Par36 standard round reflector. He started making light kits for RV's... and I have no association except found them on the web and am a customer. Lincoln www.1Linc.com 601xl, fuselage --- Don Mountain wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain > > I am finishing up the wings on my 601 XL, and a friend > told me to consider High-Intensity Discharge (HID) > Xenon, or Metal Halide Lamps for the landing and taxi > lights. One supplier I found on the internet is: > > http://www.xevision.com/ > > Has anybody tried these and have any comment on them? > Are they worth the money? It looks like they may be > brighter than the ZAC supplied bulbs, burn less power, > and last a lot longer. > > Don > 601 XL, tail done, finishing up wings > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:12 AM PST US From: "Joe Scheibinger" Subject: Zenith-List: Looking for 701 builders in Washington State (not processed: message from valid local sender) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Scheibinger" Friends, I am looking at purchasing a 701 Kit from Zenith. Is there anyone within a few hundred miles of Seattle Washington that I can call, or maybe come to see your project? I have some flying questions I would like to ask someone who has built and flown a 701. Would anyone volunteer to let me call you and talk about what it's like to fly one? If you can share some time with me on the phone, please post your phone number and I will call, or call me at 206-365-9081. Thanks Mel Struck Seattle, Washington ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Welder From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" And after Larry reminded me of the gas welding techniques Oxy acet welding is a real pleasure....One tip only use 1/16th rod for anything up say 1/4" plate. A thicker rod simply quenches the weld and it breaks. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland --> Dave, I'd recommend you obtain and use the Oxyacetylene process. Using a drawn steel copper coated rod will have lesser properties than the 4130, but will alloy itself with the 4130 and because of the welds larger cross section, it will become better suited to the task. Welds with 4130 rod tend to be hard and crack. Expansion and contraction need the mild rod to act as a stress reliever. MIG lacks control for a weld that is more demanding and critical to safety. OK for stock cars, but not aircraft. I'd recommend if you need to weld electronically, use TIG. I love TIG and the control it affords, but it's expensive if you're not going to use it a lot. I welded 25 years with gas and did 2 tube-structure aircraft before buying an electric welder and still use the gas torch half the time. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Dave & Darlene wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" >--> > >Hi List >Canadian Tire is selling there Mig for $579, $200 savings. It's 175amp. >Is this a big enough unit for the welding in the XL or 701 that a guy >has to do. I've been looking for some time now and and watching for >deals. Any thoughts > >Dave >Alberta >701 Soon to be started >601XL (on hold) >99% to go >tail parts bent and ready >www.borrowmyhusband.com/Nimigon_601XL > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:43 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" His reply was that mild steel filler was superior to 4130 in areas that were NOT to be heat treated due to being less brittle. A real reason you can't use mild steel in heat treated assemblies is that mild (carbon) steel will not heat treat other than case (surface) hardening. A very quick (not thorough) check of "Machinery's Handbook" states that a alloy steel that will through heat treat has 30 parts per thousand of carbon minimum. The last two digits in steel designations generally refer to ppt of carbon. Hence cold rolled carbon steel (C1018) has 18 ppt, 4130 alloy steel has 30 ppt. The carbon content makes the difference. I would ask Larry Mc to further explain (for us rookies, please use simple terms) his statement that welds using 4130 rod would be brittle. I was always under the impression that the reason 4130 was used is that it returns to it's "normal" state after heating (as in welding), I assumed that would include welds and all, when using correct "normalizing" technique. Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:44 PM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: RE: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain > For me it's a question of "how bright do you need > landing lights?" and > what do you need them for? Well, I have a single headlight standard system in my Piper Cherokee, and I can't see much with it even for taxiing on a dark asphalt taxyway. I can't see the stuff growing along the side of the taxyway or the unlighted side markers on the ramp edge. And as for landing, you are right. Standard lights are pretty much only for showing the tower that you are coming in for a landing, and not for actually seeing anything on the strip before you touch down. So, I guess my question is, do these newer HID lighting systems improve this situation any to the point where you are more comfortible landing and taxiing? Although I don't have a real problem with landing with the landing light off on a well marked landing strip. But it might help to see the deer on the runway just before I hit them. > If you want to be seen then install a wig-wag > flasher....$35 from B&C I fly in the midwest. No traffic here. And if I do fly into a towered field (most of them are closed after dark around here) I can wake up the dispatcher with a radio call. > If you want to see the runway...Well from my > experience landing lights > are almost useless in this regard...they give you a > faint glow of the > tarmac just before you hit it...well ok kinda useful > but not much in my > experience. > > To me a twice as bright HID is still pretty close to > useless but you > added weight and spent more money. So how about 3 or 5 times as bright? And take less power to operate them? Any advantage there? Don 601 XL ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:51 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > > >For me it's a question of "how bright do you need landing lights?" and >what do you need them for? I agree with Frank on this point. I am not installing Landing/Taxi lights on my XL. I think the only reasonable use of these lights is collision avoidance in the daytime. They are more of a problem than aid in night landings and taxiing since they don't show you much and ruin your night vision. If you are operating on a field with runway and taxi lights you should not use these lights at all. If your airport doesn't have these lights, then you won't be able to find it anyway. If you have never tried night operations without headlights, I strongly urge to do so. Paul XL barely started do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:23 PM PST US From: ken smith Subject: Zenith-List: 601xl thrust line --> Zenith-List message posted by: ken smith I am just about to build the engine mount and a test stand for the corvair and zenith 601xl. Having searched the archives for both corvair and zenith, i cannot find a set of numbers for the engine thrust line for this combination. (several for the 701/801). Any help appreciated. Ken ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:16 PM PST US From: "ABGS" Subject: Zenith-List: RFI Redrives --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ABGS" Hi All I am trying to email RFI Redrives of Indianola Ok rfi@oklatel.net The email has been returned. Does anyone know if they are still around or closed up? If they are still around does anyone have their new email address? I am trying to get hold of the EJ22 Subrau motor rebuild manual they have, has anyone got the manual or can tell where I might get one? Thanks and Fly Safe Allan Cummins Spinners www.cumminsspinners.com Kit arrives in 2 weeks Table built and ready ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:47 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Randy, 4130 rod is an air hardening metal that, during the weld process, can cool too rapidly as the weld progresses and if the metal does not relieve its stress, what is called back-cracking occurs. There is a proper rod that is drawn steel, a bit better than regular mild, but both can be made to work if the welder uses the proper techniques. In the course of a weld, filler and base melt and the alloys merge to a degree that works better for general welding by use of a drawn steel rod of lesser properties than 4130. A 4130 rod used on 4130 plate or tube would be semi-annealed after proper welding, but I'd not want that kind of rod to be in my engine mount. Few people can properly normalize or stress relieve a weld after welding, so that's my reason for staying with what is predominantly done using a lesser rod. I'm not speaking for welds that require heat treatment as very few of us get into the type of welded construct that requires actual heat treatment after the fact anyway. respectfully, Larry McFarland Randy L. Thwing wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" > >His reply was that mild steel filler was superior to 4130 in areas that were >NOT to be heat treated due to being less brittle. > >A real reason you can't use mild steel in heat treated assemblies is that >mild (carbon) steel will not heat treat other than case (surface) hardening. >A very quick (not thorough) check of "Machinery's Handbook" states that a >alloy steel that will through heat treat has 30 parts per thousand of carbon >minimum. The last two digits in steel designations generally refer to ppt >of carbon. Hence cold rolled carbon steel (C1018) has 18 ppt, 4130 alloy >steel has 30 ppt. The carbon content makes the difference. > >I would ask Larry Mc to further explain (for us rookies, please use simple >terms) his statement that welds using 4130 rod would be brittle. I was >always under the impression that the reason 4130 was used is that it returns >to it's "normal" state after heating (as in welding), I assumed that would >include welds and all, when using correct "normalizing" technique. > >Regards, >Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:33 PM PST US From: fred sanford Subject: Zenith-List: TV Drill --> Zenith-List message posted by: fred sanford Hi guys: In aircraft building we are always innovating and making jigs, tools, etc., but today's was a really neat one. In rebuilding my wing, it seemed much better to drill the new skin from the inside, than to use a hole-finder which often introduces small errors with each hole. We taped a small tv camera onto the side of the drill. These new tiny tv cameras are really useful! We were drilling down deep - through two lighting holes, and around the corner with the holes and the drill always in view. Worked great!. Pix at : http:/members.cox.net/sonar1/tvdrill.jpg Fred Sanford 701 N9701 rebuilding the wing after crash-into by another plane ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:48 PM PST US From: "CH701" <701stol@gmail.com> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: TV Drill --> Zenith-List message posted by: "CH701" <701stol@gmail.com> Great idea Fred! P.S. Your link has a typo - I believe it should read: http://members.cox.net/sonar1/tvdrill.jpg Todd Henning 701 from plans Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of fred sanford Subject: Zenith-List: TV Drill --> Zenith-List message posted by: fred sanford Hi guys: In aircraft building we are always innovating and making jigs, tools, etc., but today's was a really neat one. In rebuilding my wing, it seemed much better to drill the new skin from the inside, than to use a hole-finder which often introduces small errors with each hole. We taped a small tv camera onto the side of the drill. These new tiny tv cameras are really useful! We were drilling down deep - through two lighting holes, and around the corner with the holes and the drill always in view. Worked great!. Pix at : http:/members.cox.net/sonar1/tvdrill.jpg Fred Sanford 701 N9701 rebuilding the wing after crash-into by another plane ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:11 PM PST US From: "ron wehba" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Welder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba" if you use tig,,use a 70s2 filler rod, great for tig welding 4130 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Welder > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland > > Randy, > 4130 rod is an air hardening metal that, during the weld process, can > cool too rapidly as the weld progresses > and if the metal does not relieve its stress, what is called > back-cracking occurs. There is a proper rod > that is drawn steel, a bit better than regular mild, but both can be > made to work if the welder uses the proper > techniques. In the course of a weld, filler and base melt and the > alloys merge to a degree that works > better for general welding by use of a drawn steel rod of lesser > properties than 4130. A 4130 rod used on > 4130 plate or tube would be semi-annealed after proper welding, but I'd > not want that kind of rod to be in my > engine mount. Few people can properly normalize or stress relieve a > weld after welding, so that's my reason > for staying with what is predominantly done using a lesser rod. > > I'm not speaking for welds that require heat treatment as very few of us > get into the type of welded construct that > requires actual heat treatment after the fact anyway. > > respectfully, > > Larry McFarland > > > Randy L. Thwing wrote: > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" >> >> >>His reply was that mild steel filler was superior to 4130 in areas that >>were >>NOT to be heat treated due to being less brittle. >> >>A real reason you can't use mild steel in heat treated assemblies is that >>mild (carbon) steel will not heat treat other than case (surface) >>hardening. >>A very quick (not thorough) check of "Machinery's Handbook" states that a >>alloy steel that will through heat treat has 30 parts per thousand of >>carbon >>minimum. The last two digits in steel designations generally refer to ppt >>of carbon. Hence cold rolled carbon steel (C1018) has 18 ppt, 4130 alloy >>steel has 30 ppt. The carbon content makes the difference. >> >>I would ask Larry Mc to further explain (for us rookies, please use simple >>terms) his statement that welds using 4130 rod would be brittle. I was >>always under the impression that the reason 4130 was used is that it >>returns >>to it's "normal" state after heating (as in welding), I assumed that would >>include welds and all, when using correct "normalizing" technique. >> >>Regards, >>Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:14 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601xl thrust line --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Ken: Look at your 601XL drawings for the other engines and you will see where it is. I don't have my drawings with me, but I was able to determine it by looking at the engine drawings. Good luck, Scott Laughlin ken smith wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: ken smith I am just about to build the engine mount and a test stand for the corvair and zenith 601xl. Having searched the archives for both corvair and zenith, i cannot find a set of numbers for the engine thrust line for this combination. (several for the 701/801). Any help appreciated. Ken ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:35 PM PST US From: "Rick Tedford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Tedford" Hello Don : I feel the XEvision lights would be a lot better because other traffic would see you better , especially in the daylight , and the life span is longer . I just burnt out 1 of my 4509,s after about 25 hours of use ( estmated useage ) . Here in northern Ontario we do not have a lot of traffic normally , but , when in the control zone it is a good saefty feature to be lit up . I run a JAB and the out put of the alternator is not a lot , so , a system where the power requirements is low would be a great feature . Our night flying equipment requirement includes a heated pitot tube and this also requires 10 amps+- , therefore a system requiring less amperage is highly beneficial . I dont know if this sheds any more light on the subject ( no pun intended ) but for ehat its worth . 601XL , 107 hours Best regards Rick Tedford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Mountain" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Don Mountain > >> For me it's a question of "how bright do you need >> landing lights?" and >> what do you need them for? > > Well, I have a single headlight standard system in my > Piper Cherokee, and I can't see much with it even for > taxiing on a dark asphalt taxyway. I can't see the > stuff growing along the side of the taxyway or the > unlighted side markers on the ramp edge. And as for > landing, you are right. Standard lights are pretty > much only for showing the tower that you are coming in > for a landing, and not for actually seeing anything on > the strip before you touch down. So, I guess my > question is, do these newer HID lighting systems > improve this situation any to the point where you are > more comfortible landing and taxiing? Although I > don't have a real problem with landing with the > landing light off on a well marked landing strip. But > it might help to see the deer on the runway just > before I hit them. > >> If you want to be seen then install a wig-wag >> flasher....$35 from B&C > > I fly in the midwest. No traffic here. And if I do > fly into a towered field (most of them are closed > after dark around here) I can wake up the dispatcher > with a radio call. > >> If you want to see the runway...Well from my >> experience landing lights >> are almost useless in this regard...they give you a >> faint glow of the >> tarmac just before you hit it...well ok kinda useful >> but not much in my >> experience. >> >> To me a twice as bright HID is still pretty close to >> useless but you >> added weight and spent more money. > > So how about 3 or 5 times as bright? And take less > power to operate them? Any advantage there? > > Don > 601 XL > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:35 PM PST US From: "Carl Bertrand" Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Bertrand" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dynon Angle of Attack > Followed the subject discussion with interest. I too am tempted with the > Dynon "glass cockpit" but have resisted so far due to the $3k Cdn price. I > also rationalized that it was "too much for my 701". In fact I'm already > well equipped with steam gauges with one exception; I'm lacking a reliable > compass due to magnetic anomalies in the cockpit and need a remote sensing > compass. > However to install Dynon or not is not what is prompting this post. That > question I believe is a personal choice. Personally if I did not already > have a well decorated panel, I would have a Dynon or something similar > installed in my a/c. > What really caught my interest was the discussion on the angle of attack (A > of A) indicator. I have to agree with those that rate this instrument right > up there with the ASI and other flight instrument. I first used one when > flying CF101 an aircraft that was most unforgiving if stalled. It required > over 7000 feet to recover and if stalled bellow 10,000 you were instructed > to bailout. Needless to say that when manoeuvring you always had an eye on > the A of A indicator. > I designed and constructed my own A of A for the CH701. It's presentation is > a series of green, yellow and red lights high and directly in front of PIC > seat. The greens are the lowest/dimmest and the reds are the brightest and > at the top of the panel. > There is more than a letter and a number different between the Voodoo and > the STOL and Chris made sure that stall characteristics of the CH 701 are > tamer than the Voodoo. With the anticipation of practice stall, most of us > can recover in less than 100 feet and this looks pretty gentle when done at > 3000 feet. But on your next TO or landing take a good look at what 100 feet > looks like close to the ground! I sure don't want to stall anywhere close to > that altitude. A stall at that altitude or lower could be fatal if not > detected early. > I can't comment on the CH 601 types. I have 400 hrs on the 701 and think > it's a great little aircraft but it has one characteristic that I respect > very much. Because it is light it has little inertia and slows-down rapidly. > If I let my speed drop off , loose power in the climb, or encounter wind > shear on final I need all the help I can get to prevent bent aluminium. The > A of A in my opinion is great insurance during such an event. No matter what > load I have onboard or what flap setting, it always gives me my angle of > attack and when those reds start flashing I'd better be ready to land or > pour-the-coals-on cause she coming down real soon. The A of A has many other > uses such as, best angles for range, endurance, climb, glide etc. no matter > what load is onboard. Something the ASI can only do if you have a book full > of charts to adjust for load ,temperature, altitude etc. > > Getting back to Dynon, I have not assessed the A of A for readability. An A > of A is useless if it does not get your attention when your busy, like real > busy. Therefore it should be right in your face or ear especially when the > a/c is close to the stall angle. > > Returned from Osh to read 617 emails. I was disappointed to be the only 701 > there except ZAC's demo. Took two days out, had to stop short due to weather > at Osh on Saturday but returned to Ottawa in three hops on Thursday. Would > have liked more speed but the STOL on amphibs is comforting when over wild > country. > > Enjoy the list, > > Carl CH 701/912/amphibs > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:22 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re Re: Welder / 4130 filler rod --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker John, > That is blatantly a false statement. Well, that puts me right on the defensive. It certainly was not a "blatantly" false statement. This would mean that it was made "In bad behavior" or "completely lacking in subtlety." Yes I looked it up. I also looked up in the welding manual what rod is recommended for 4130. I tend to trust published manuals rather my uncle's best friend who is an engineer for Jelly Belly's. He came up with the hard shelled coating on Jelly Beans, so he must know about the tensile strength of a 4130 welded joint. I hope that I did not describe myself as an expert in metallurgy; only a guy that has scratch built a few parts, and a certified welder for 15 years. Not an engineer though, so I couldn't possibly know everything... R/ Brandon