---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/15/05: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:50 AM - Re: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Paul Mulwitz) 2. 06:24 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 08/12/05 (Schemmel, Grant) 3. 06:49 AM - Re: Drilling for Forward Torque Tube Bearing 6B16-6? () 4. 07:43 AM - Re: TV Drill (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 5. 07:44 AM - Rotating beacon (Carlos Sa) 6. 08:28 AM - Re: Rotating beacon (Carlos Sa) 7. 09:00 AM - Re: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Leo Gates) 8. 12:05 PM - Polished aluminum - Re: Rotating beacon (Michel Therrien) 9. 12:24 PM - Re: Very Cool Tail Light (Was: Rotating beacon) (N5SL) 10. 02:13 PM - Re: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts (Paul Tipton) 11. 03:36 PM - 40 hour fly off vs 25 (ron dewees) 12. 03:39 PM - Re: Rotating beacon (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 13. 04:24 PM - Re: Rotating beacon (Paul Mulwitz) 14. 04:52 PM - Re: Polished aluminum - Re: Rotating beacon (Carlos Sa) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:53 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >Yes, the human eye is very capable of low light operation when it is fully >adapted to the conditions. The problem is that it really doesn't take >much to destroy your night vision: A passing car, an open hangar or >somebody else taxiing with a taxi light. > >Once your night vision is destroyed, what are you going to do? Shut down >the plane where you are and wait for the 20+ minutes for your night >vision to come back? I give up. Go ahead and install arc lights in your plane, and do it with my blessing. I am still not putting those lights in mine. I don't think the occasional white light has much impact unless it is right in your eyes. The lighted hangar or car in the distance won't do that much damage, and you still have time to taxi and run up the engine before takeoff to adjust again. One exception is the problem of running into a "Rude" pilot who runs his strobes on the ground at night. This will, indeed, blind all the pilots within several hundred yards of his lights. As I am sure you know, it is customary to run your red rotating beacon light while spinning props on the ground at night (or daytime for that matter). Alas, I have not found any source for these beacons to install on my XL. Apparently this custom has not found its way into the experimental plane market. I even asked ZAC for a source for rotating beacons, and they said there just aren't any they know of. Good luck, Paul XL barely started do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:50 AM PST US From: "Schemmel, Grant" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 08/12/05 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Schemmel, Grant" Bill, As far as I understand it, if the engine still has the "certified" SN tag on it, then you can't work on it without A&P supervision. The moment you crack the engine open as an operator it technically becomes "experimental", and you are supposed to send in the SN tag from the engine. Grant Schemmel Time: 07:37:38 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Comparison: 601XL: Continental O-200 --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Grant, the other part of the question is as the engine prop combo was certified when the plane was signed off on by the DAR can you do maintenance on the engine (100 hour, tear downs and such) or do you have to have the A&P do it ? Our at least have him sign off on your work ? Best regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:42 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling for Forward Torque Tube Bearing 6B16-6? --> Zenith-List message posted by: MOST AIR DRILLS ARE FAIRLEY NARROW, AND DO A GOOD JOB. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Zenith-List: Drilling for Forward Torque Tube Bearing 6B16-6? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: deglass1@aol.com > > The list has become much broader than specific tips lately, but I > request some help with a detail that's not in the list archives. > After putting the XL project aside for a few months, I'm back into > fuselage construction. The forward torque tube bearing 6B16-6 mounts > between the upright extrusions in the pre-built center spar section, > with 4 AN3 bolts. Without removing the uprights from the center spar, > how did you drill the pilot holes, then 3/16" holes through the > uprights and bearing, so close to the spar web? Neither my regular or > right-angle hand drills let me get anywhere near the center of the > upright. Do I need a Dremel extention or some other small-chuck > flexible drill extension? > > Any suggestions or experience would be appreciated. Direct e-mail to > either address would be welcomed! > > Thanks- > David Glass > XL - working on Fuselage > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:05 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: TV Drill From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Oh that is just too cool!....:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fred sanford Subject: Zenith-List: TV Drill --> Zenith-List message posted by: fred sanford Hi guys: In aircraft building we are always innovating and making jigs, tools, etc., but today's was a really neat one. In rebuilding my wing, it seemed much better to drill the new skin from the inside, than to use a hole-finder which often introduces small errors with each hole. We taped a small tv camera onto the side of the drill. These new tiny tv cameras are really useful! We were drilling down deep - through two lighting holes, and around the corner with the holes and the drill always in view. Worked great!. Pix at : http:/members.cox.net/sonar1/tvdrill.jpg Fred Sanford 701 N9701 rebuilding the wing after crash-into by another plane ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:57 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: Rotating beacon --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Paul, it doesn't have to be a *rotating* beacon. A blinking red light should work. See my approach here: http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/carlossa Carlos > I even asked ZAC for a source for rotating beacons, and they said > there just aren't any they know of. > > Good luck, > > Paul > XL barely started Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:24 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotating beacon --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa It seems something is bent out of shape. Try this URL instead: http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/pm.cgi?action=display&login=carlossa&private=1 --- Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Paul, it doesn't have to be a *rotating* beacon. > A blinking red light should work. See my approach here: > http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/carlossa > > Carlos > > > > I even asked ZAC for a source for rotating beacons, and they said > > there just aren't any they know of. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Paul > > XL barely started > > > > > > > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:04 AM PST US From: "Leo Gates" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Gates" After reading a bunch of posts on this subject, here is my 2 cents: I got checked out in night flying in 1949 in a J3 Cub. No landing light, nav. lights powered by a lantern battery. Runway lights were kerosene highway flarepots positioned about every 500' down each side of a grass strip. Takeoff, fly around a bit (stay in the pattern) and try to land. Seems starlight, town lights (3 miles away) just enough so that at flare it seems you are landing in a black hole! If I have an emergency landing at night, I want to see what I'm going to hit and more importantly, what I can avoid. I bought a pair of off-road halogen lights from JC Whitney for $14. I removed the lamp housings and found that they fit nicely into ZAC landing/taxi light assembly. I did have ZAC make new front light frames as the halogen lights were 4 mm larger in diameter than AC lights. I replaced the supplied halogen bulbs with ones coated to penetrate haze etc. I left the taxi light at 55 watts and put in a 110 watt light for a landing light. Last night I had to chase off a large black dog, lying just past the touchdown point. I do not believe I would have seen him without the lights. I love them and will continue to use them. Yes, I have landed without them found the black hole, as I remember from my youth. Leo Gates N601Z, CH601HDS TDO ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:40 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Polished aluminum - Re: Zenith-List: Rotating beacon --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien Carlos, did you polish your rudder or was the aluminum like that when you received it? I remember purchasing a couple of polished sheets... if I knew these sheets existed from the beginning of the project, you bet I would have looked for them at any cost. Michel do not archive --- Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > > It seems something is bent out of shape. > > Try this URL instead: > http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/pm.cgi?action=display&login=carlossa&private=1 ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:17 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Very Cool Tail Light (Was: Rotating beacon) --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Carlos please share how you made that lense. Very nice! Thanks, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com Carlos Sa wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa It seems something is bent out of shape. Try this URL instead: http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/pm.cgi?action=display&login=carlossa&private=1 --- Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > Paul, it doesn't have to be a *rotating* beacon. > A blinking red light should work. See my approach here: > http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/carlossa > > Carlos > > > > I even asked ZAC for a source for rotating beacons, and they said > > there just aren't any they know of. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Paul > > XL barely started > > > > > > > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:29 PM PST US From: "Paul Tipton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: High Intensity Discharge (HID) Landing LIghts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Tipton" The best quote I have heard regarding landing lights is for an emergency landing at night, "pick the darkest 'hole' you can find and head toward it... as you land, if you don't like what you see in your landing lights, turn them off!" do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:07 PM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Zenith-List: 40 hour fly off vs 25 --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hi Listers, I see a lot of opinions pro and con whether (previously) certified engines on experimental planes can qualify for 25 hour Phase I fly off of hours. I flew off my 40 hours in April on my Zenith 601/Jabiru 3300 motor and now have accumulated almost 90 hours on the combination. I find that I am still making adjustments, changing things and keeping records of what helps or harms temps and performance. I think the idea that the 25 hours fly off is a big bonus and justification for using a certified motor is a very weak argument , whether legal or not. For me 40 hours seemed to go by in a hurry and was no impediment at all. If I wasn't happy with every aspect of the motor/airframe combination I wasn't' going to fly far or carry passengers anyway. The fact that your certified motor and prop have proven to be dependable in somebody else's certified plane doesn't say a thing for YOUR installation or operation in your experimental plane. Sorry, but it just seems to be a loophole to me that may make it legal to shorten a very critical flight phase of testing. Pete at Jab USA said that Jabiru motors passed very stringent JAR standards in AU including up to 200 hours of operation at extreme temperatures and punishing conditions. That is great to know but it didn't prove a thing for MY installation and operating conditions. I expect the same would be true of a US certified motor. It's possible that on my second or third experimental I would be more impatient to get thru Phase I as soon as possible, but since this is my first I didn't mind the 40 hours at all. Just my humble opinion. Ron N601TD Schemmel, Grant wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Schemmel, Grant" > >Bill, > >As far as I understand it, if the engine still has the "certified" SN tag on it, then you can't work on it without A&P supervision. The moment you crack the engine open as an operator it technically becomes "experimental", and you are supposed to send in the SN tag from the engine. > >Grant Schemmel > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:29 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotating beacon --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net The reason most Cessnas and Pipers and such have flashing red lights on the tail is that at the time these designs were originally certificated, that was all that was required by the regulations for an anti-collision light. Since many of these aircraft are still being produced under the original certification that red light is still the only anti-collision light required on them. For more recent designs and for recently registered homebuilts, that flashing red light no longer meets the requirement of the regulations, strobe lights are now required. Since the tail mounted light is no longer required, you no longer need to have an "approved" unit installed. If you really want a flashing red light installled on the aircraft, a rotating beacon would be way too heavy, require too much current and probably produce too much drag. I would suggest instaid that you install a simple LED flasher unit. Some good inexpensive units are made for bicyclists and these can be adapted for your use or you can buy a few parts from radio shack and build your own. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive > > I even asked ZAC for a source for rotating beacons, and they said > > there just aren't any they know of. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Paul > > XL barely started ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:17 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotating beacon --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Thank you, Bryan, for the informative response on rotating beacons. I am sure you are correct about the requirements being updated to require strobes for anti-collision use. Indeed, I am installing strobes on my XL. I still think the strobes are inappropriate for use on the ground - especially at night. I would prefer a high output design for a flashing red light rather than something appropriate for a kid on a bicycle. While I am quite competent to design such a device (I did that sort of thing for a living for decades) I would rather take advantage of someone else's efforts on such a seemingly simple design project. It may seem easy to do a Radio-Shack class design, but I don't think that would really get everyone's attention on a busy flight line. I agree that some sort of LED based design would be good. It should probably use very high intensity pulses with very low duty cycle. It should also employ some sort of elegant optical design including a reflector to distribute the light in all directions and a clear or red plastic lens to cover it all. The cover should also be both aerodynamically sound and integrate nicely with the airplane. While this is all relatively simple, I don't want to reinvent all those wheels. I suspect there are some products out there that fill this requirement very nicely. I would certainly appreciate hearing from anyone who comes across an ideal solution. Paul XL barely started do not archive At 03:39 PM 8/15/2005, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net > >The reason most Cessnas and Pipers and such have flashing red lights >on the tail is that at the time these designs were originally >certificated, that was all that was required by the regulations for >an anti-collision light. Since many of these aircraft are still >being produced under the original certification that red light is >still the only anti-collision light required on them. For more >recent designs and for recently registered homebuilts, that flashing >red light no longer meets the requirement of the regulations, strobe >lights are now required. > >Since the tail mounted light is no longer required, you no longer >need to have an "approved" unit installed. If you really want a >flashing red light installled on the aircraft, a rotating beacon >would be way too heavy, require too much current and probably >produce too much drag. I would suggest instaid that you install a >simple LED flasher unit. Some good inexpensive units are made for >bicyclists and these can be adapted for your use or you can buy a >few parts from radio shack and build your own. > >-- >Bryan Martin >N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. >do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:53 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Polished aluminum - Re: Zenith-List: Rotating beacon --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa I polished it myself - while the thing was flat, on the table. Getting the first shine after the material is curved and rivetted must be murder! Carlos --- Michel Therrien wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > Carlos, did you polish your rudder or was the > aluminum like that when you received it? > > I remember purchasing a couple of polished sheets... > if I knew these sheets existed from the beginning of > the project, you bet I would have looked for them at > any cost. > > Michel > do not archive