Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:41 AM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM (Hunt Malcolm)
2. 04:34 AM - Re: Drill minimum (John)
3. 05:53 AM - Re: fuel hose (Larry)
4. 05:57 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
5. 06:12 AM - 912S clutch (kobo1)
6. 06:45 AM - Fuel Vent Siphoning - HDS leading edge tanks (charles.long@gm.com)
7. 06:45 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
8. 06:59 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble (Bob Miller)
9. 07:10 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble (Pete Krotje)
10. 09:20 AM - Re: 912S clutch (ivor.phillips)
11. 01:29 PM - fiberglass wingtips (john butterfield)
12. 01:30 PM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM (Jeff Davidson)
13. 02:25 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Mike Fortunato)
14. 02:42 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
15. 02:47 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Paul Moore)
16. 02:54 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Tebenkof@aol.com)
17. 03:08 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Peter Franke)
18. 03:39 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (William J. Naumuk)
19. 03:54 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (William J. Naumuk)
20. 04:26 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Bryan Martin)
21. 04:34 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (ron dewees)
22. 04:56 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Mike Fortunato)
23. 05:17 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Leo Gates)
24. 05:37 PM - Kit parts quality. (Paul Mulwitz)
25. 05:41 PM - Battery access door on 601XL (Brian Briggerman)
26. 05:47 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (William J. Naumuk)
27. 05:52 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (William J. Naumuk)
28. 05:55 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (William J. Naumuk)
29. 05:59 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Jack Russell)
30. 06:09 PM - Re: Battery access door on 601XL (PASSPAT@aol.com)
31. 06:16 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Gary Gower)
32. 06:29 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Paul Mulwitz)
33. 06:53 PM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
34. 06:58 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (William J. Naumuk)
35. 07:11 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (William J. Naumuk)
36. 07:22 PM - Re: Battery access door on 601XL (Mike Fortunato)
37. 07:38 PM - Re: Kit parts quality. (Mike Fortunato)
38. 07:45 PM - New Engine (Larry)
39. 07:51 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Paul Mulwitz)
40. 08:50 PM - Re: Kit parts quality. (Paul Mulwitz)
41. 10:00 PM - Re: fiberglass wingtips (Zodie Rocket)
42. 11:40 PM - Re: New Engine (NYTerminat@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Drilling Metal Minimum RPM |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hunt Malcolm" <Malcolm.HUNT@networkrail.co.uk>
William
I use a Dremmel (240v) and have an extension lead with a 'push to contact' inserted
in an electric socket box which I can use as a foot switch. The Dremmel
is left switched and switch operated by foot leaving both hands free to guide
and operate the drill.
The switch cost 2.95 (about $5) at Maplins electronics retailer. It will only take
small amps but it works for me and the holes are true in position and size
- a suggestion!!
Malcolm Hunt
CH601XL Plans Builder England
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
I just read an article in the December 2004 issue of KitPlanes that
recommends a drill capable of about 1500 RPM or higher. My Makita cordless
drill runs at 1300 RPM and did a good job.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
>
> Im looking to buy an electric cordless drill and
> would like to know what is the minimum recommended RPM
> for drilling metal. So far Ive been doing my drilling
> with an AC electric drill that does a superb job, but
> this one turns at 3000 RPM and I have not found a
> cordless drill that goes that fast. My problem with my
> AC electric drill is that the distance between the
> handle and the bit point is too long for proper
> control.
>
> Thanks
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL/Corvair
Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external
to Network Rail.
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Drill minimum |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John" <jlifer@bellsouth.net>
I've got a cheapy Harbor Freight 14.4v drill that runs at 550rpm. It works, but
not really well. My Ryobi has a max at about 2000 and works really well except
for the drill weight. Really tiresome. I'm looking again too-somewhere around
1300 would probably be perfect.
John in its not getting any cooler Mississippi
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
Here's what he is talking about, not silicon. I have use it several times
and gas don't hurt it other than aging.
Bing Alcohol Resistant Fuel Line
This fuel line is blue in color and does not rot or deteriorate
from the inside, clogging the carburetor or fuel system. It withstands 50
PSI and tensile strength is 8000 PSI. It is resistant to temperatures
of -65 to 220F without deterioration, features exceptional resistance to
gasoline, oil, oxygen, and ozone, and has high elastic memory allowing use
of Delrin or nylon barbed fittings in low pressure applications without the
need for external clamps.
Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel hose
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
>
> No - silicon is not compatible with petroleum fuels. Alcohol yes,
gasoline,
> no.
>
>
> Paul
> XL - O200
> Do Not Archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Zenith-List: fuel hose
>
> Does anyone know if the new blue colored silicone hose can be used for
fuel
> lines. It's listed in the new Spruce Parts catalog page 122 lower right
> (silicone Hose) Thanks in advance.
>
>
> --
>
>
--
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Bob, thanks for the input. Simply, I had not flown higher than 4K before I
charged the filter. Problem now is I suppose I need to do some more testing but
now with a plane I'm pretty sure has a bum carb. Not a present prospect, Bill
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kobo1" <kobo1@cyberbeach.net>
Hello, has anyone experienced problems with the 912S and sprag clutch
combination? Specifically do you notice a lot of shake or is it hard on
the starter? There are a couple people that had repairs after 100-200
hours, just wondering if other planes had the same problems.
MAK
Message 6
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| Subject: | Fuel Vent Siphoning - HDS leading edge tanks |
08/25/2005 09:43:46 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com
I Have an HDS with Jab 3300 as well. Have added the same 45 degree
angle to the vent tubes when I noticed fuel stain trailing on the wing. I
burn about 5 gph w/o the lean kit, so I don't think much is siphoning out.
Chuck Long
N601LE, 20 hr TT
Time: 02:33:02 PM PST US
From: "Paul Hartl" <paulhartl@cox.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel vent dumping on LE HDS tanks
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Hartl" <paulhartl@cox.net>
Hi List,
After my 4th flight in N414PZ I was trying to determine where all the
fuel is going - too rich of mixture, leaking tanks, etc., when I noticed
that
a rather slight jostling of the wing (when parked) sent a fair amount of
fuel
out the vent, even with a tank only 1/3 full! ......
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Pete, thanks for the timely response. I appreciate your interest.
Questions:
1. Prop is the wooden Sensenich that came with the FWF kit.
2. The altitude is somewhat difficult to explain. Up until the last flight I
had not been above 4K ft, nor had I tried to fly at full throttle (other on
take off and climb out.) The previous flights I felt the vibration at all
throttle setting above 1800 at 3-4k ft. What I thought I was feeling was exhaust
pipe bumping under the fuselage where it was close. That was not it. As to rpm;
the engine is rough from 2500 to 1800 and carb heat smoothes at all settings.
3.,4., 5. I cannot give you EGT readings as I do not have one.
6. I have yet to purchase or install the Econ Tuning Kit.
7. Most rpm to date 2600 level at about 1000 ft.
8. Most rpm on take off about 2700. Can't really say in the seven times I
flown her I actually looked at the tacho at takeoff.
I checked all the carb vents and tubes and they were correct, I just could
not picture where what ran to which in my head. Also I spot checked the tacho on
the ground at 1000, 1400 and 1800 rpm and the panel instrument is correct. I
suspect the engine is laboring too lean at all altitudes but it is not as
noticeable in the climb under stress and the plane is bumping around. I climbed
at
600 ft per minute at 90 mph to 6500 ft. Full throttle was about 2500 rpm in
long climb.
Appreciate any assistance you can provide. It maybe that more information if
gathered would be helpful, but now that I suspect the carb is bum somehow, I
don't particularly want to play test pilot without a correct one. Got a spare
carb laying around your pretty sure is okay? Easiest solution and SAFEST
solution is send it to me, I will install and test. Best regards, Bill
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bob Miller <tutuzulu@gmail.com>
Bill,
Got it. So you have no way of knowing how the old filter would have
done at altitude.
I sure hope it's not a bum carb, and it is a big drag not knowing.
Please let us know what Pete says when he gets the info he needed for
a diagnostic opinion.
Bob
do not archive
On 8/25/05, JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
> Bob, thanks for the input. Simply, I had not flown higher than 4K before I
> charged the filter. Problem now is I suppose I need to do some more testing but
> now with a plane I'm pretty sure has a bum carb. Not a present prospect, Bill
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Bill,
I don't think the carb is the problem but more likely the airflow into it is
not smooth enough to allow the mixture compensation to work the right way.
How about sending me some photos of the airbox installation with the SCAT
ducting shown from airbox to carb.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Pete, thanks for the timely response. I appreciate your interest.
Questions:
1. Prop is the wooden Sensenich that came with the FWF kit.
2. The altitude is somewhat difficult to explain. Up until the last flight I
had not been above 4K ft, nor had I tried to fly at full throttle (other on
take off and climb out.) The previous flights I felt the vibration at all
throttle setting above 1800 at 3-4k ft. What I thought I was feeling was
exhaust pipe bumping under the fuselage where it was close. That was not it.
As to rpm; the engine is rough from 2500 to 1800 and carb heat smoothes at
all settings.
3.,4., 5. I cannot give you EGT readings as I do not have one.
6. I have yet to purchase or install the Econ Tuning Kit.
7. Most rpm to date 2600 level at about 1000 ft.
8. Most rpm on take off about 2700. Can't really say in the seven times I
flown her I actually looked at the tacho at takeoff.
I checked all the carb vents and tubes and they were correct, I just could
not picture where what ran to which in my head. Also I spot checked the
tacho on the ground at 1000, 1400 and 1800 rpm and the panel instrument is
correct. I suspect the engine is laboring too lean at all altitudes but it
is not as noticeable in the climb under stress and the plane is bumping
around. I climbed at 600 ft per minute at 90 mph to 6500 ft. Full throttle
was about 2500 rpm in long climb.
Appreciate any assistance you can provide. It maybe that more information if
gathered would be helpful, but now that I suspect the carb is bum somehow, I
don't particularly want to play test pilot without a correct one. Got a
spare carb laying around your pretty sure is okay? Easiest solution and
SAFEST solution is send it to me, I will install and test. Best regards,
Bill
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
If you check the Europa archives there is a mass of information on that
topic,
Most are starting there engines by cranking before switching on the magnetos
followed by choke if cold, This reduces the load on the starter and
sprag clutch,
Ivor Phillips
XS486 London UK
CM Installed, rudder cables complete,
undercarriage fitted brakes working
flap tube fitted
wing lift pins fitted,tiebar fitted instrument
panel being finalised,
----- Original Message -----
From: "kobo1" <kobo1@cyberbeach.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: 912S clutch
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kobo1" <kobo1@cyberbeach.net>
>
> Hello, has anyone experienced problems with the 912S and sprag clutch
> combination? Specifically do you notice a lot of shake or is it hard on
> the starter? There are a couple people that had repairs after 100-200
> hours, just wondering if other planes had the same problems.
>
>
> MAK
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: john butterfield <jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
hi guys again
thanks for the comments on the ifr/vor receiver.
a new question
i am trying to fit the fiberglass wing tips to the end
of the wing, and there appears no way they will fit
inside the skins without a fairly large gap on the
leading edge. my nose skins seem snug around the
forward wing ribs, but the geometry of the tip and the
space in which they are to fill do not fit. I guess i
could put them in and fill in the rather large 3/4
inch gap at the nose end, but don't want to if the
tips may be bad. Zenith told me that they do not make
the tips and i am hoping that i got a bad pair. the
same seems to be so with the left wing, but i left
that to work on the right wing.
I don't mind filling in the gap, but want to make sure
it will not have a bad aerodynamic effect on the
flight surfaces. It appears, the the wing is
forgiving, and slight descrepencies between the wings
will cause no great problem.
Let me know if you will regarding initial fit and the
problems, if any with filling the gaps
thanks in advance.
john butterfield
601XL
--- Zenith-List Digest Server
<zenith-list-digest@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
>
> ==================================================
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>
>
>
> Zenith-List Digest
> Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Wed
> 08/24/05: 27
>
>
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 04:48 AM - RE Cortec as primer (John)
> 2. 05:10 AM - Gas tank (Bob Gibfried)
> 3. 05:43 AM - Re: completion (Larry McFarland)
> 4. 05:55 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
> 5. 06:26 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest:
> completion (Gig Giacona)
> 6. 06:28 AM - IFR requirements (Frank L
> Laczko)
> 7. 06:37 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (Pete Krotje)
> 8. 06:37 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (Weston, Jim)
> 9. 06:41 AM - Re: Gas tank (Steve Russell)
> 10. 06:43 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (Weston, Jim)
> 11. 06:52 AM - Re: Gas tank (heatonhe@aol.com)
> 12. 08:24 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil leak. (Trevor
> Page)
> 13. 09:43 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil leak. (Paul
> Mulwitz)
> 14. 11:50 AM - Rotax 912 oil leak (Johann G.)
> 15. 02:32 PM - Re: completion (Josh Lazar)
> 16. 02:33 PM - Fuel vent dumping on LE HDS tanks
> (Paul Hartl)
> 17. 02:47 PM - Re: Gas tank (Graham Kirby)
> 18. 04:14 PM - Re: Fuel vent dumping on LE HDS
> tanks (Larry McFarland)
> 19. 04:44 PM - fuel hose (Jim)
> 20. 06:06 PM - Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> (William Dominguez)
> 21. 06:16 PM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (Bob Miller)
> 22. 06:32 PM - Re: fuel hose (Paul Moore)
> 23. 06:45 PM - Re: fuel hose (Larry)
> 24. 07:22 PM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> (Paul Mulwitz)
> 25. 09:14 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (R. Saarinen)
> 26. 09:18 PM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> (Bryan Martin)
> 27. 11:45 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (BIANCO Tadeusz
> Forgacz)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:48:49 AM PST US
> From: "John" <jlifer@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Zenith-List: RE Cortec as primer
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John"
> <jlifer@bellsouth.net>
>
> I would be very hesitant about using the Cortec
> primer under my finish coat. I
> sprayed parts LAST YEAR and they are still very
> sticky. Humidity is the problem,
> during the winter they were OK, now with it hot
> they will adhere to anything.
> Bits of shavings stick like glue. I won't be using
> any more of it especially
> on the outside.
> John in HOT Mississippi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:10:49 AM PST US
> From: "Bob Gibfried" <rfg842@cox.net>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Gas tank
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Gibfried"
> <rfg842@cox.net>
>
> Have build a new gas tank. Is Pro Seal used on the
> mating surfaces before
> riveting to help seal the seams? Which Pop rivets
> would be best. Know that
> a solid shank is necessary but there are lots of
> different types.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bob, Wichita
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:43:41 AM PST US
> From: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: completion
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland
> <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
> Richard,
> Congratulations, and hope all goes well. Do keep us
> informed when you
> begin flight.
> We've not been priveleged to hear much of the
> performance from the RAMs
> engines.
> Good luck,
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
> Ricchardd@aol.com wrote:
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by:
> Ricchardd@aol.com
> >
> >l am happy, after 2 years to the month, today
> N601ZT is complete and waiting
> >on the DAR.
> >RAM EFI engine, 4 blade Warp Drive, glass panel, it
> should be fun.
> >Richard Musser, Mohave valley, AZ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:55:59 AM PST US
> From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL 3300 Carburetor
> Trouble
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by:
> JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
=== message truncated ===
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jeff Davidson <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
Im looking to buy an electric cordless drill and would like to know what is the
minimum recommended RPM ....
In my manual 2500 RPM is recommended as about right. The important thing is that
as you drill the hole making process creates "spirals" of alumimum as opposed
to "chips". This indicates a smoother cut. I can tell you that 4500 RPM is
too much! Slower seems to work better for the steel parts.
Jeff Davidson
CH 601 HD
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> no way they will fit inside the skins without a
> fairly large gap on the leading edge.
Same thing here. The fiberglass parts simply do not
have the same curvature as the nose skin. This has
come up before, and most will suggest heating the
fiberglass parts, and reforming them to fit the wing.
I suppose that would work, but having already
installed them (and afraid of fibergalss work for fear
of making the situation worse), I plan to simply fill
the gap with light weight bondo type of product.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
I would be interested to know if ANYONE has received fiberglass wingtips that
actually fit. Mine were much as you describe....the curvature of the
leading edge does not match the skins very well at all. Zenith might take note
of
this. It seems to be a recurring problem with kit builders.
Dave
Message 15
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| Subject: | fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
I had the same problem. Pushing a nose rib against the inside of the skin at
the tip showed it was the nose skin that was not taking the proper curve out
there with no support. After careful trimming and fitting of the metal and
forcing the fiberglass tip into the nose skin, I was able to get mine to fit
pretty well. I then basically ignored the plan spacing for the L support at
the back end of the glass and just located it where it needed to be to
support the end of the spar and tip plate. I ended up with two lines of
rivets there - one for the end of the fiberglass part and one slightly
behind that for the L.
Paul Moore
XL - O200
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: john butterfield
Subject: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
..it appears no way they will fit inside the skins without a fairly large
gap on the leading edge....
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com
DO NOT ARCHIVE
My impression is that the fiberglass tips are all about the same, and pretty
lousy. I have talked to Nick a couple times. He offered to send more of
the same. I have a very positive impression of ZAC and most things have been
handled quickly and well. But I must say, they do not seem too bothered about
the fiberglass. Heating and reshaping does work, but they are still not the
right size, and least in my case. I have tried both immersing in boiling
water and a heat gun. Both work, but the water felt less precarious.
Jim Greenough
701/Portland
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Franke" <pfranke@tpg.com.au>
John,
We've had exactly the same problem with our two planes (S/Ns 5703&5704). I
overcame the bad fit by making a new fiberglass tip that covers the entire
wing tip, and it looks much better than the aluminium/fiberglass combo.
Peter Franke
601XL (with some custom parts)
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "john butterfield" <jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: john butterfield
<jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
>
> hi guys again
> thanks for the comments on the ifr/vor receiver.
> a new question
>
> i am trying to fit the fiberglass wing tips to the end
> of the wing, and there appears no way they will fit
> inside the skins without a fairly large gap on the
> leading edge. my nose skins seem snug around the
> forward wing ribs, but the geometry of the tip and the
> space in which they are to fill do not fit. I guess i
> could put them in and fill in the rather large 3/4
> inch gap at the nose end, but don't want to if the
> tips may be bad. Zenith told me that they do not make
> the tips and i am hoping that i got a bad pair. the
> same seems to be so with the left wing, but i left
> that to work on the right wing.
>
> I don't mind filling in the gap, but want to make sure
> it will not have a bad aerodynamic effect on the
> flight surfaces. It appears, the the wing is
> forgiving, and slight descrepencies between the wings
> will cause no great problem.
>
> Let me know if you will regarding initial fit and the
> problems, if any with filling the gaps
> thanks in advance.
>
> john butterfield
> 601XL
>
> --- Zenith-List Digest Server
> <zenith-list-digest@matronics.com> wrote:
>
> > *
> >
> > ==================================================
> > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ==================================================
> >
> > Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be
> > found in either of the
> > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes
> > the Digest formatted
> > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features
> > Hyperlinked Indexes
> > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the
> > plain ASCII version
> > of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a
> > generic text editor
> > such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> >
> > HTML Version:
> >
> >
> >
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-08-24.html
> >
> > Text Version:
> >
> >
> >
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-08-24.txt
> >
> >
> > ================================================
> > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Zenith-List Digest
> > Archive
> > ---
> > Total Messages Posted Wed
> > 08/24/05: 27
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Today's Message Index:
> > ----------------------
> >
> > 1. 04:48 AM - RE Cortec as primer (John)
> > 2. 05:10 AM - Gas tank (Bob Gibfried)
> > 3. 05:43 AM - Re: completion (Larry McFarland)
> > 4. 05:55 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
> > 5. 06:26 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest:
> > completion (Gig Giacona)
> > 6. 06:28 AM - IFR requirements (Frank L
> > Laczko)
> > 7. 06:37 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (Pete Krotje)
> > 8. 06:37 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (Weston, Jim)
> > 9. 06:41 AM - Re: Gas tank (Steve Russell)
> > 10. 06:43 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (Weston, Jim)
> > 11. 06:52 AM - Re: Gas tank (heatonhe@aol.com)
> > 12. 08:24 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil leak. (Trevor
> > Page)
> > 13. 09:43 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil leak. (Paul
> > Mulwitz)
> > 14. 11:50 AM - Rotax 912 oil leak (Johann G.)
> > 15. 02:32 PM - Re: completion (Josh Lazar)
> > 16. 02:33 PM - Fuel vent dumping on LE HDS tanks
> > (Paul Hartl)
> > 17. 02:47 PM - Re: Gas tank (Graham Kirby)
> > 18. 04:14 PM - Re: Fuel vent dumping on LE HDS
> > tanks (Larry McFarland)
> > 19. 04:44 PM - fuel hose (Jim)
> > 20. 06:06 PM - Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> > (William Dominguez)
> > 21. 06:16 PM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (Bob Miller)
> > 22. 06:32 PM - Re: fuel hose (Paul Moore)
> > 23. 06:45 PM - Re: fuel hose (Larry)
> > 24. 07:22 PM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> > (Paul Mulwitz)
> > 25. 09:14 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (R. Saarinen)
> > 26. 09:18 PM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> > (Bryan Martin)
> > 27. 11:45 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (BIANCO Tadeusz
> > Forgacz)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 1
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 04:48:49 AM PST US
> > From: "John" <jlifer@bellsouth.net>
> > Subject: Zenith-List: RE Cortec as primer
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John"
> > <jlifer@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > I would be very hesitant about using the Cortec
> > primer under my finish coat. I
> > sprayed parts LAST YEAR and they are still very
> > sticky. Humidity is the problem,
> > during the winter they were OK, now with it hot
> > they will adhere to anything.
> > Bits of shavings stick like glue. I won't be using
> > any more of it especially
> > on the outside.
> > John in HOT Mississippi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 2
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 05:10:49 AM PST US
> > From: "Bob Gibfried" <rfg842@cox.net>
> > Subject: Zenith-List: Gas tank
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Gibfried"
> > <rfg842@cox.net>
> >
> > Have build a new gas tank. Is Pro Seal used on the
> > mating surfaces before
> > riveting to help seal the seams? Which Pop rivets
> > would be best. Know that
> > a solid shank is necessary but there are lots of
> > different types.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bob, Wichita
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 3
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 05:43:41 AM PST US
> > From: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: completion
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland
> > <larrymc@qconline.com>
> >
> > Richard,
> > Congratulations, and hope all goes well. Do keep us
> > informed when you
> > begin flight.
> > We've not been priveleged to hear much of the
> > performance from the RAMs
> > engines.
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> > do not archive
> >
> > Ricchardd@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >--> Zenith-List message posted by:
> > Ricchardd@aol.com
> > >
> > >l am happy, after 2 years to the month, today
> > N601ZT is complete and waiting
> > >on the DAR.
> > >RAM EFI engine, 4 blade Warp Drive, glass panel, it
> > should be fun.
> > >Richard Musser, Mohave valley, AZ,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 4
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 05:55:59 AM PST US
> > From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL 3300 Carburetor
> > Trouble
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by:
> > JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
John-
I posted having the same trouble with my HDS a couple of days ago, with
no solutions that fit the situation.
You can cover the gap if you move the fiberglas tip inboard and towards
the nose, but then you would 1. Have to shim the back of the position light
with a wedge to get it to sit 90 deg to the spar, and 2. "Overtrim" the nose
skin towards the root. Not acceptable, in my estimation.
I made more than my share of screw-ups the first time around and had to
rebuild the wings clear down to the spar. About the only pieces left from
the original kit were the sheet metal part of the spar and spar L angles.
That and the wing tips. I didn't have any trouble re-using the aluminum tip,
but I thought that age (My kit's 2 years old) might have caused the
fiberglas to warp due to the same observations you make. I can look down the
edge when it's clecoed to the 45 deg L angle and see that it's "S" shaped.
THIS wing is put together right- all tolerances are 2mm or less (mostly
less) and it looks the way it's supposed to. I'm getting so gun-shy, rather
than risk having to replace another nose skin, I ordered another fiberglas
tip. I'll let you know if it's any better.
DON'T TRY TO MAKE THE PIECE YOU HAVE FIT!!!! That's what I did the first
time around (With other parts) and wound up modifying the piece that
adjoined it. Then I had to modify the piece that adjoined THAT one, ad
infinitum until I had to rebuild the whole wing. Kind of interesting that
everything went together like peas in a pod WHEN I BUILT ALL THE PARTS FROM
SCRATCH!!!! I hate to think of the worst case scenario. I just spent 2 years
rebuilding structures that couldn't be put together correctly the first time
because of some other critical component that didn't meet print.
What's really bad is, I'm an engineer by profession. I would NEVER use a
part at work unless it's geometry had been verified to print. Sadly, I never
checked preformed parts (Like ribs) to print before using them the first
time around.
Guess what I'm doing with every new piece I use from here on out!
Keep in touch.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "john butterfield" <jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: john butterfield
<jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
>
> hi guys again
> thanks for the comments on the ifr/vor receiver.
> a new question
>
> i am trying to fit the fiberglass wing tips to the end
> of the wing, and there appears no way they will fit
> inside the skins without a fairly large gap on the
> leading edge. my nose skins seem snug around the
> forward wing ribs, but the geometry of the tip and the
> space in which they are to fill do not fit. I guess i
> could put them in and fill in the rather large 3/4
> inch gap at the nose end, but don't want to if the
> tips may be bad. Zenith told me that they do not make
> the tips and i am hoping that i got a bad pair. the
> same seems to be so with the left wing, but i left
> that to work on the right wing.
>
> I don't mind filling in the gap, but want to make sure
> it will not have a bad aerodynamic effect on the
> flight surfaces. It appears, the the wing is
> forgiving, and slight descrepencies between the wings
> will cause no great problem.
>
> Let me know if you will regarding initial fit and the
> problems, if any with filling the gaps
> thanks in advance.
>
> john butterfield
> 601XL
>
> --- Zenith-List Digest Server
> <zenith-list-digest@matronics.com> wrote:
>
> > *
> >
> > ==================================================
> > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ==================================================
> >
> > Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be
> > found in either of the
> > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes
> > the Digest formatted
> > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features
> > Hyperlinked Indexes
> > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the
> > plain ASCII version
> > of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a
> > generic text editor
> > such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> >
> > HTML Version:
> >
> >
> >
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-08-24.ht
ml
> >
> > Text Version:
> >
> >
> >
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-08-24.tx
t
> >
> >
> > ================================================
> > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Zenith-List Digest
> > Archive
> > ---
> > Total Messages Posted Wed
> > 08/24/05: 27
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Today's Message Index:
> > ----------------------
> >
> > 1. 04:48 AM - RE Cortec as primer (John)
> > 2. 05:10 AM - Gas tank (Bob Gibfried)
> > 3. 05:43 AM - Re: completion (Larry McFarland)
> > 4. 05:55 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
> > 5. 06:26 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest:
> > completion (Gig Giacona)
> > 6. 06:28 AM - IFR requirements (Frank L
> > Laczko)
> > 7. 06:37 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (Pete Krotje)
> > 8. 06:37 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (Weston, Jim)
> > 9. 06:41 AM - Re: Gas tank (Steve Russell)
> > 10. 06:43 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (Weston, Jim)
> > 11. 06:52 AM - Re: Gas tank (heatonhe@aol.com)
> > 12. 08:24 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil leak. (Trevor
> > Page)
> > 13. 09:43 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil leak. (Paul
> > Mulwitz)
> > 14. 11:50 AM - Rotax 912 oil leak (Johann G.)
> > 15. 02:32 PM - Re: completion (Josh Lazar)
> > 16. 02:33 PM - Fuel vent dumping on LE HDS tanks
> > (Paul Hartl)
> > 17. 02:47 PM - Re: Gas tank (Graham Kirby)
> > 18. 04:14 PM - Re: Fuel vent dumping on LE HDS
> > tanks (Larry McFarland)
> > 19. 04:44 PM - fuel hose (Jim)
> > 20. 06:06 PM - Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> > (William Dominguez)
> > 21. 06:16 PM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> > (Bob Miller)
> > 22. 06:32 PM - Re: fuel hose (Paul Moore)
> > 23. 06:45 PM - Re: fuel hose (Larry)
> > 24. 07:22 PM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> > (Paul Mulwitz)
> > 25. 09:14 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (R. Saarinen)
> > 26. 09:18 PM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> > (Bryan Martin)
> > 27. 11:45 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (BIANCO Tadeusz
> > Forgacz)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 1
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 04:48:49 AM PST US
> > From: "John" <jlifer@bellsouth.net>
> > Subject: Zenith-List: RE Cortec as primer
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John"
> > <jlifer@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > I would be very hesitant about using the Cortec
> > primer under my finish coat. I
> > sprayed parts LAST YEAR and they are still very
> > sticky. Humidity is the problem,
> > during the winter they were OK, now with it hot
> > they will adhere to anything.
> > Bits of shavings stick like glue. I won't be using
> > any more of it especially
> > on the outside.
> > John in HOT Mississippi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 2
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 05:10:49 AM PST US
> > From: "Bob Gibfried" <rfg842@cox.net>
> > Subject: Zenith-List: Gas tank
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Gibfried"
> > <rfg842@cox.net>
> >
> > Have build a new gas tank. Is Pro Seal used on the
> > mating surfaces before
> > riveting to help seal the seams? Which Pop rivets
> > would be best. Know that
> > a solid shank is necessary but there are lots of
> > different types.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bob, Wichita
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 3
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 05:43:41 AM PST US
> > From: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: completion
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland
> > <larrymc@qconline.com>
> >
> > Richard,
> > Congratulations, and hope all goes well. Do keep us
> > informed when you
> > begin flight.
> > We've not been priveleged to hear much of the
> > performance from the RAMs
> > engines.
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> > do not archive
> >
> > Ricchardd@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >--> Zenith-List message posted by:
> > Ricchardd@aol.com
> > >
> > >l am happy, after 2 years to the month, today
> > N601ZT is complete and waiting
> > >on the DAR.
> > >RAM EFI engine, 4 blade Warp Drive, glass panel, it
> > should be fun.
> > >Richard Musser, Mohave valley, AZ,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 4
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 05:55:59 AM PST US
> > From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL 3300 Carburetor
> > Trouble
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by:
> > JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
All-
Dammit, people, for a help chat line, our communication SUCKS!! As
careful as I'm sure we all are, sometimes mistakes are incomprehensible and
"Be more careful next time" doesn't apply. WHY DID NEARLY EVERYONE WAIT
UNTIL AFTER THE FACT TO SPEAK UP?? I'm sure Chris has no intention of
selling us bad parts, but we have to give him feedback!!!
Of course, the only response I've ever received when reporting a problem
to Zenith was "Be more careful next time".
Prime contractors are responsible for verifying the quality of the
product their subcontractors supply them.
'Nuf said.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
>
> I had the same problem. Pushing a nose rib against the inside of the skin
at
> the tip showed it was the nose skin that was not taking the proper curve
out
> there with no support. After careful trimming and fitting of the metal and
> forcing the fiberglass tip into the nose skin, I was able to get mine to
fit
> pretty well. I then basically ignored the plan spacing for the L support
at
> the back end of the glass and just located it where it needed to be to
> support the end of the spar and tip plate. I ended up with two lines of
> rivets there - one for the end of the fiberglass part and one slightly
> behind that for the L.
>
> Paul Moore
> XL - O200
> Do Not Archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: john butterfield
> Subject: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
>
> ..it appears no way they will fit inside the skins without a fairly large
> gap on the leading edge....
>
>
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Mine fit fairly well. It didn't look like it would at first, but after
trimming the wingtip to shape and stuffing the fiberglass fairing forward
into the nose skin it turned out well. I seem to recall that I had to spring
it outward a bit with the clecos. I suspect that because it's such an odd
shaped part and built so light in weight, it doesn't hold its shape well
until it's supported by the rest of the structure around it.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
>
> I would be interested to know if ANYONE has received fiberglass wingtips that
> actually fit. Mine were much as you describe....the curvature of the
> leading edge does not match the skins very well at all. Zenith might take
> note of
> this. It seems to be a recurring problem with kit builders.
>
> Dave
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Dave,
My fiberglass wingtips fit just fine. Almost no gap at all around. It
is on a 7 year old HDS. Don't know who made them. They were with the kit.
Ron
do not archive
VideoFlyer@aol.com wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
>
>I would be interested to know if ANYONE has received fiberglass wingtips that
>actually fit. Mine were much as you describe....the curvature of the
>leading edge does not match the skins very well at all. Zenith might take note
of
>this. It seems to be a recurring problem with kit builders.
>
>Dave
>
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> Dammit, people, for a help chat line, our
> communication SUCKS!! WHY DID NEARLY EVERYONE WAIT
> UNTIL AFTER THE FACT TO SPEAK UP??
Bill, it appears you must not have checked the
archives on some of this stuff. I've probably been the
most outspoken Zodiac builder there is, and have
relayed all of my concerns to ZAC (including the
fiberglass parts). Most have gone ignored. And in many
instances, I've been publicly and privately scolded on
this board from folks defending ZAC at all costs.
One thing you'll learn in this biz is that the home
building group seems way more willing to accept flaws
and just deal with it themselves, than in any other
business I've ever been involved with. It was amazing
to me at first too, but then I realized that's just
the way it is. Yes, parts should be made better in the
first place, so we don't have to wrestle with things
like misaligned wing tips. But you're involved in an
industry that advertises a "completed plane", engine &
prop NOT included. That alone speaks volumes.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
do not archive, since it's already there
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Gates" <leogates@allvantage.com>
My experience was the same. 6 year old HDS. Just a bit of fitting as per
Bryan Martin's message.
Leo Gates
N601Z
-------Original Message-------
From: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Dave,
My fiberglass wingtips fit just fine. Almost no gap at all around. It
is on a 7 year old HDS. Don't know who made them. They were with the kit.
Ron
do not archive
VideoFlyer@aol.com wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
>
>I would be interested to know if ANYONE has received fiberglass wingtips
that
>actually fit. Mine were much as you describe....the curvature of the
>leading edge does not match the skins very well at all. Zenith might take
note of
>this. It seems to be a recurring problem with kit builders.
>
>Dave
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Kit parts quality. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
> What's really bad is, I'm an engineer by profession. I would NEVER use a
>part at work unless it's geometry had been verified to print. Sadly, I never
>checked preformed parts (Like ribs) to print before using them the first
>time around.
> Guess what I'm doing with every new piece I use from here on out!
I was lucky. I learned that lesson early.
I think it is a mistake to think that just because parts come from
THE FACTORY that means they are correct. Indeed, they don't build
airplanes there, just parts that they sell to us.
I am generally pleased with the quality of work from the
factory. However, it is shoddy enough that I feel I must check each
part - and particularly each pre-drilled hole - to be sure of how
close it is to the drawing. I have not had any trouble with parts
like ribs. They have all been spot on - presumably because the form
blocks have been carefully checked. On the other extreme, I have
found holes drilled that are not on the print and holes missing. I
have also found holes misplaced up to 2 mm from where they are
supposed to be. This is not a problem if you know about it and don't
depend on using the pre-drilled holes for alignment of parts but do
the alignment yourself and then use the holes.
I agree with all the other guys about who is responsible for the
quality of work in our planes. It is US. That is part of the deal
when we decide to build a plane. The kit still saves a great deal of
time and work acquiring the materials and forming the parts, so I
think it is a bargain.
If this scares anyone away from ZAC or amateur building, then I am
sorry. I also feel anyone who is not willing to take responsibility
for every part that goes into their creation shouldn't be building a
real airplane.
The only part about all this I find really amazing is that ZAC has
the reputation of being the best in the business. My own experience
confirms this. The real problem is not ZAC it is the builders who
have unrealistic expectations.
Hang in there,
Paul
XL barely started
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 25
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| Subject: | Battery access door on 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brian Briggerman" <blb7037@cox.net>
I am putting together the rear fuselage side skins and don't see any access to
the fuselage after the plane is built. I don't have the big door underneath shown
in the latest release and was an option on my kit that I did not know about.
I am thinking of putting in the O-235 battery access door to have at least
some access to the rear fuselage. I don't think I will have to put the battery
back there as I am going with an O-200 and think it will allow the battery up
front. I don't know if it would do any good.
Does anyone have any suggestions on this? Do I need access back there and if I
do, will the battery door be enough or do I need the big bottom door?
Brian Briggerman
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
Mike-
Sorry, I only had access to the archives a couple of days ago, if that's
any excuse.
You've hit the nail on the head, though. We are not idiots, we care VERY
much about the construction of something that could mean life or death, and
for some reason, we implicitly trust the explanations of the suppliers of
our plane's components, even if the stock answer for any problem is, in
essence, "You're a careless, ignorant idiot.".
Maybe it's a matter of pride. All I know is, if there's a recurring
problem, we all should get together to try and get it resolved, rather than
accepting the stock answer.
How about it, list? Let's try and focus on getting things fixed rather
than all wearing sack clothes and ashes for our incompetence.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Fortunato" <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
>
>
> > Dammit, people, for a help chat line, our
> > communication SUCKS!! WHY DID NEARLY EVERYONE WAIT
> > UNTIL AFTER THE FACT TO SPEAK UP??
>
> Bill, it appears you must not have checked the
> archives on some of this stuff. I've probably been the
> most outspoken Zodiac builder there is, and have
> relayed all of my concerns to ZAC (including the
> fiberglass parts). Most have gone ignored. And in many
> instances, I've been publicly and privately scolded on
> this board from folks defending ZAC at all costs.
>
> One thing you'll learn in this biz is that the home
> building group seems way more willing to accept flaws
> and just deal with it themselves, than in any other
> business I've ever been involved with. It was amazing
> to me at first too, but then I realized that's just
> the way it is. Yes, parts should be made better in the
> first place, so we don't have to wrestle with things
> like misaligned wing tips. But you're involved in an
> industry that advertises a "completed plane", engine &
> prop NOT included. That alone speaks volumes.
>
> Mike Fortunato
> 601XL
>
> do not archive, since it's already there
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
Ron-
Since you have a vintage kit, maybe at that time your tips were made in
house.
Like I said previously, I'm sure Chris has no intention of selling bad
components- he just has to monitor his vendors and make sure they provide
"Parts to print".
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "ron dewees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
>
> Hi Dave,
> My fiberglass wingtips fit just fine. Almost no gap at all around. It
> is on a 7 year old HDS. Don't know who made them. They were with the
kit.
> Ron
>
> do not archive
>
> VideoFlyer@aol.com wrote:
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
> >
> >I would be interested to know if ANYONE has received fiberglass wingtips
that
> >actually fit. Mine were much as you describe....the curvature of the
> >leading edge does not match the skins very well at all. Zenith might
take note of
> >this. It seems to be a recurring problem with kit builders.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
Bryan-
Check out my original response on the subject- that's exactly what I
said would have to happen to get them to fit.
If that's what you have to go through to get the tips to fit, why bother
making sure you have a perfect 45 degree sight line down the aluminum rib?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> Mine fit fairly well. It didn't look like it would at first, but after
> trimming the wingtip to shape and stuffing the fiberglass fairing forward
> into the nose skin it turned out well. I seem to recall that I had to
spring
> it outward a bit with the clecos. I suspect that because it's such an odd
> shaped part and built so light in weight, it doesn't hold its shape well
> until it's supported by the rest of the structure around it.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> do not archive.
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
> >
> > I would be interested to know if ANYONE has received fiberglass wingtips
that
> > actually fit. Mine were much as you describe....the curvature of the
> > leading edge does not match the skins very well at all. Zenith might
take
> > note of
> > this. It seems to be a recurring problem with kit builders.
> >
> > Dave
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
John: I think ths is a common problem with the tips. I remember a lot of fighting
and head scratching to get them to fit. I do remember having to cram them hard
into the nose skin and tweak the tops out to match the curve. They came out
really nice though. Jack in Clovis Ca ( soon to be Jack in Los Osos CA)
john butterfield <jdbutterfield@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: john butterfield
i am trying to fit the fiberglass wing tips to the end
of the wing, and there appears no way they will fit
inside the skins without a fairly large gap on the
leading edge. my nose skins seem snug around the
forward wing ribs, but the geometry of the tip and the
space in which they are to fill do not fit. I guess i
could put them in and fill in the rather large 3/4
inch gap at the nose end, but don't want to if the
tips may be bad. Zenith told me that they do not make
the tips and i am hoping that i got a bad pair. the
same seems to be so with the left wing, but i left
that to work on the right wing.
I don't mind filling in the gap, but want to make sure
it will not have a bad aerodynamic effect on the
flight surfaces. It appears, the the wing is
forgiving, and slight descrepencies between the wings
will cause no great problem.
Let me know if you will regarding initial fit and the
problems, if any with filling the gaps
thanks in advance.
john butterfield
601XL
--- Zenith-List Digest Server
wrote:
> *
>
> ==================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be
> found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes
> the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features
> Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the
> plain ASCII version
> of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a
> generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-08-24.html
>
> Text Version:
>
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list/Digest.Zenith-List.2005-08-24.txt
>
>
> ================================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
>
>
> Zenith-List Digest
> Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Wed
> 08/24/05: 27
>
>
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 04:48 AM - RE Cortec as primer (John)
> 2. 05:10 AM - Gas tank (Bob Gibfried)
> 3. 05:43 AM - Re: completion (Larry McFarland)
> 4. 05:55 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
> 5. 06:26 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest:
> completion (Gig Giacona)
> 6. 06:28 AM - IFR requirements (Frank L
> Laczko)
> 7. 06:37 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (Pete Krotje)
> 8. 06:37 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (Weston, Jim)
> 9. 06:41 AM - Re: Gas tank (Steve Russell)
> 10. 06:43 AM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (Weston, Jim)
> 11. 06:52 AM - Re: Gas tank (heatonhe@aol.com)
> 12. 08:24 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil leak. (Trevor
> Page)
> 13. 09:43 AM - Re: Rotax 912 oil leak. (Paul
> Mulwitz)
> 14. 11:50 AM - Rotax 912 oil leak (Johann G.)
> 15. 02:32 PM - Re: completion (Josh Lazar)
> 16. 02:33 PM - Fuel vent dumping on LE HDS tanks
> (Paul Hartl)
> 17. 02:47 PM - Re: Gas tank (Graham Kirby)
> 18. 04:14 PM - Re: Fuel vent dumping on LE HDS
> tanks (Larry McFarland)
> 19. 04:44 PM - fuel hose (Jim)
> 20. 06:06 PM - Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> (William Dominguez)
> 21. 06:16 PM - Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble
> (Bob Miller)
> 22. 06:32 PM - Re: fuel hose (Paul Moore)
> 23. 06:45 PM - Re: fuel hose (Larry)
> 24. 07:22 PM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> (Paul Mulwitz)
> 25. 09:14 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (R. Saarinen)
> 26. 09:18 PM - Re: Drilling Metal Minimum RPM
> (Bryan Martin)
> 27. 11:45 PM - Re: HD HDS Flaps (BIANCO Tadeusz
> Forgacz)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:48:49 AM PST US
> From: "John"
> Subject: Zenith-List: RE Cortec as primer
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John"
>
>
> I would be very hesitant about using the Cortec
> primer under my finish coat. I
> sprayed parts LAST YEAR and they are still very
> sticky. Humidity is the problem,
> during the winter they were OK, now with it hot
> they will adhere to anything.
> Bits of shavings stick like glue. I won't be using
> any more of it especially
> on the outside.
> John in HOT Mississippi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:10:49 AM PST US
> From: "Bob Gibfried"
> Subject: Zenith-List: Gas tank
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Gibfried"
>
>
> Have build a new gas tank. Is Pro Seal used on the
> mating surfaces before
> riveting to help seal the seams? Which Pop rivets
> would be best. Know that
> a solid shank is necessary but there are lots of
> different types.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bob, Wichita
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:43:41 AM PST US
> From: Larry McFarland
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: completion
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland
>
>
> Richard,
> Congratulations, and hope all goes well. Do keep us
> informed when you
> begin flight.
> We've not been priveleged to hear much of the
> performance from the RAMs
> engines.
> Good luck,
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
> Ricchardd@aol.com wrote:
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by:
> Ricchardd@aol.com
> >
> >l am happy, after 2 years to the month, today
> N601ZT is complete and waiting
> >on the DAR.
> >RAM EFI engine, 4 blade Warp Drive, glass panel, it
> should be fun.
> >Richard Musser, Mohave valley, AZ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:55:59 AM PST US
> From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL 3300 Carburetor
> Trouble
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by:
> JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
>
=== message truncated ===
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Battery access door on 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: PASSPAT@aol.com
Put in the big hole if its not to late and you will be glade you did
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
First I think that is probably that all the wings are not built the same, (diferent
builders) but yes, the fiberglass could be better.
We work with fiberglass as our day job, (maybe that is why we choosed a metal
plane :-)
We made our new plugs and molds, We made only the flaperons tips new and repaired
the wing tips...to fit our airplane, we can make an extra set of the flapperons
for someone...
The problem I think will be the shipping from here (Guadalajara, Mexico, not Mexico
Missouri)...
I have some friends that travel to TX or CA about once a month or two for bussiness
trips, probably could take a little box and post from there? Will have
to ask if its not an inconvinience...
We almost redo the whole engine cowling, making a new one will take TOO long and
we wanted to finish the plane soon...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Tebenkof@aol.com wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com
DO NOT ARCHIVE
My impression is that the fiberglass tips are all about the same, and pretty
lousy. I have talked to Nick a couple times. He offered to send more of
the same. I have a very positive impression of ZAC and most things have been
handled quickly and well. But I must say, they do not seem too bothered about
the fiberglass. Heating and reshaping does work, but they are still not the
right size, and least in my case. I have tried both immersing in boiling
water and a heat gun. Both work, but the water felt less precarious.
Jim Greenough
701/Portland
---------------------------------
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>Like I said previously, I'm sure Chris has no intention of selling bad
>components- he just has to monitor his vendors and make sure they provide
>"Parts to print".
I have some bad news for some of you. Chris has nothing to do with
ZAC. It is his son Sebastian that runs ZAC. Another son, Nicholas,
is in charge of the factory operation.
Chris is the designer for the planes, but his responsibility stops
when the ink hits the drawing paper.
Once again, I urge all builders to check every part they use whether
they made it or ZAC supplied it. It is really the builder who is
responsible for quality control on his own airplane.
Paul
XL barely started
do not archive
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL 3300 Carburetor Trouble |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Pete, I have sent you an e-mail attached with four photos, but I am not sure
the photos all went through, If you only received one, e-mail me and I will
try again, Thanks, Bill
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
All-
So what people have reported is, parts from older kits seem to work
better than those from newer kits. The question now becomes, were fiberglas
parts always outsourced, or were they outsourced less than 6 years ago? Did
the problems start after the parts were outsourced?
Paul, I agree that we are the ones who are ultimately responsible.
That's why I think the responsible thing to do is inform Zenith that there
seems to be a problem of a certain part's variation in quality. Going back
to Chris- I don't think his intention is to have many of his builders
scratch their head trying to figure out how to install a part he intended to
be a no-brainer.
Finding the root cause of a problem isn't an exercise in assigning
blame- it's an exercise in trying to fix an identified anomaly. Chris, I'm
sure, will endorse that approach. In that spirit, I'm sending an e-mail to
the Zenith design team inviting them to look into the matter.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Gates" <leogates@allvantage.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Gates" <leogates@allvantage.com>
>
> My experience was the same. 6 year old HDS. Just a bit of fitting as per
> Bryan Martin's message.
>
> Leo Gates
> N601Z
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: 08/25/05 18:35:16
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
>
> Hi Dave,
> My fiberglass wingtips fit just fine. Almost no gap at all around. It
> is on a 7 year old HDS. Don't know who made them. They were with the
kit.
> Ron
>
> do not archive
>
> VideoFlyer@aol.com wrote:
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
> >
> >I would be interested to know if ANYONE has received fiberglass wingtips
> that
> >actually fit. Mine were much as you describe....the curvature of the
> >leading edge does not match the skins very well at all. Zenith might
take
> note of
> >this. It seems to be a recurring problem with kit builders.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
Paul-
That's exactly where I'm trying to go- it's as much our responsibility
to make sure we get good parts to begin with as it is to figure out how to
make mutants work.
Bill
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fiberglass wingtips
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
<p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
>
> >Like I said previously, I'm sure Chris has no intention of selling bad
> >components- he just has to monitor his vendors and make sure they provide
> >"Parts to print".
>
>
> I have some bad news for some of you. Chris has nothing to do with
> ZAC. It is his son Sebastian that runs ZAC. Another son, Nicholas,
> is in charge of the factory operation.
>
> Chris is the designer for the planes, but his responsibility stops
> when the ink hits the drawing paper.
>
> Once again, I urge all builders to check every part they use whether
> they made it or ZAC supplied it. It is really the builder who is
> responsible for quality control on his own airplane.
>
> Paul
> XL barely started
> do not archive
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Paul Mulwitz
> 32013 NE Dial Road
> Camas, WA 98607
> ---------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Battery access door on 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> Do I need access back there and if I do, will the
> battery door be enough or do I need the big bottom
> door?
If you one choose one, then you should pick the large
access panel on the bottom of the fuselage. I have
both....but that large bottom opening allows access to
almost everything.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Kit parts quality. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fortunato <rsq2424@yahoo.com>
> I also feel anyone who is not willing to
> take responsibility for every part that goes into
> their creation shouldn't be building a real
airplane.
I really would have let this email go without
comment....really I was...until I read this garbage
(plus some other scattered comments throughout). It
only proves the point I made in my previous post.
First, it's the Zenith AIRCRAFT Company, not the
Zenith Airplane Pieces of Aluminum Company. So yes --
they are in the airplane business. Agreed, the builder
has the ultimate res[ponsibility for workmanship. But
that certainly doesn't forfeit a customer's rights
(after plunking down thousands of dollars) to question
the quality of the parts supplied in its KITS (scratch
builders are more on their own....but even still, the
plans should be correct, unless we're all presumed to
have aeronautical engineering degrees). When you buy a
preformed wing tip, it ought to fit the wing, plain &
simple. And if it doesn't, the factory should make it
right for that and all future builders, which
ultimately will improve the quality of its product.
How about when you buy your kid that nice new mountain
bike this Christmas, assembly required, and one of the
wheels doesn't fit the frame. Don't take it back --
it's not the manufacturer's fault -- you're putting it
together, right?
So, while we all may not be quite as talented as you,
we're still building real airplanes, with our real
butts on the line. Good grief.
Message 38
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
Pictures of my new engine are now on my site.
Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Paul, I agree that we are the ones who are ultimately responsible.
>That's why I think the responsible thing to do is inform Zenith that there
>seems to be a problem of a certain part's variation in quality. Going back
>to Chris- I don't think his intention is to have many of his builders
>scratch their head trying to figure out how to install a part he intended to
>be a no-brainer.
> Finding the root cause of a problem isn't an exercise in assigning
>blame- it's an exercise in trying to fix an identified anomaly. Chris, I'm
>sure, will endorse that approach. In that spirit, I'm sending an e-mail to
>the Zenith design team inviting them to look into the matter.
> Bill
I agree with all you are saying, Bill. I was not aware anyone has
Chris's email address. It is my assumption that Chris is the entire
design team. I know he is not physically located at ZAC - or for
that matter in the same country as ZAC. I believe Chris has a closer
association with Zenair in Canada, but I am not sure about that.
If you know his email address, please publish it on this list.
Let me make a few comments about fiberglass.
I had difficulties with the two different fiberglass parts involved
with the XL tail parts. The first problem part was the one shown on
the current drawings for the rudder tip. This part was not included
with my rudder kit and was also absent when I ordered the horizontal
stabilizer parts to complete the tail section. When I complained to
Sebastian about the missing part (the rudder tip) he said that it was
a problem getting it from his supplier. He also said it was only
cosmetic. He did not say he had any intention of supplying a part
for my kit even though I had already paid for a complete tail section
kit that showed that part in the drawings. I guess it is up to me to
make an issue of it or just forget it. I have not made a final
decision on that point. (I was so busy fighting over the outrageous
new elevator trim tab design that I put the rudder tip question on
the back burner as a low priority issue.)
I also had trouble fitting the stabilizer tips to the aluminum
parts. When I looked further into this problem I learned (primarily
from the EAA site) that fiberglass parts normally do not fit a kit
plane. It is very common for a kit plane builder to need to reshape
all fiberglass parts to make them fit his plane. There are several
well documented techniques for this process involving mostly heat and
bending, but it is also reasonable to trim edges of the fiberglass
parts. With this in mind I did my best to make the supplied parts
fit and put a reminder in my "Log" to consider remaking the parts to
be closer to the shape required on my plane.
I have not yet faced the wing tip problem since I have not yet
received my wing kit (after three months of waiting for it).
Best regards,
Paul
XL barely started
do not archive
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Kit parts quality. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>I really would have let this email go without
>comment....really I was...until I read this garbage
>(plus some other scattered comments throughout). It
>only proves the point I made in my previous post.
>First, it's the Zenith AIRCRAFT Company, not the
>Zenith Airplane Pieces of Aluminum Company. So yes --
>they are in the airplane business. Agreed, the builder
>has the ultimate res[ponsibility for workmanship. But
>that certainly doesn't forfeit a customer's rights
>(after plunking down thousands of dollars) to question
>the quality of the parts supplied in its KITS (scratch
>builders are more on their own....but even still, the
>plans should be correct, unless we're all presumed to
>have aeronautical engineering degrees). When you buy a
>preformed wing tip, it ought to fit the wing, plain &
>simple. And if it doesn't, the factory should make it
>right for that and all future builders, which
>ultimately will improve the quality of its product.
Here we go again.
Have you ever wondered, Mike, why it is that you have not received
the responses you felt you deserved from Nick? Have you ever
wondered, Mike, why it is that you are taking so long to finish your
plane when many other people have done the same thing in a small
fraction of the time? Have you ever wondered, Mike, if there is a
remote possibility that your assumptions about airplane building have
any relationship with reality?
I realize my point was a difficult one. That is why I said it
several times. Still you got it completely wrong.
This is not about talent. It is about responsibility.
You seem to think Zenith is responsible for your airplane. Nothing
could be farther from the truth. I am sure you signed the agreement
which clearly states they are not responsible. (Similar to the one
you didn't want to accept from Jabiru.) I suppose that was so long
ago you forgot what it said.
The only airplanes Zenith builds are the demonstrators. They are not
building your airplane, you are.
While I agree with you to a certain extent that Zenith collects a lot
of money from builders and naturally gets some degree of commitment
to provide high quality product for that money they are not in a
position to guarantee the parts will all fit together like the ones
in the bicycle you referred to. An experimental airplane is not a
bicycle. By definition, the builder must do 51% of the work in
building a plane in order to get an airworthiness certificate. That
work includes (is primarily composed of?) insuring the parts are
correct and are assembled into an airworthy structure. Even if
Zenith did have some responsibility for the parts, the 51% rule says
we have more responsibility than they do.
I have had excellent responses from Zenith when I complained about
the quality of parts they supplied in my kit. I have had equally
excellent response when I told them I had run out of rivets before I
ran out of holes. I believe they do a perfect job of acquiring the
correct materials needed to meet the design requirements (a design
which they sell but do not produce - Chris Heintz produces the
design.) I have even had excellent responses from them when I
pointed out a design error that needed to be fixed in the latest
version of the XL elevator. In all cases, the responses were timely
(within a day or two) and directly to the point. For the most part,
the above defines my idea of the actual commitment they owe me.
It is nice if you think the parts of a kit plane should fit together
like the parts of a finished bicycle which requires only "Some
assembly". Unfortunately, that is not the way it is in the real
world. Today you can buy a kit that is intended to need just "Some
assembly" for planes similar to the Zodiac. They are called E-LSA
planes. Before they are shipped to you they are completely
assembled and tested. Then they are disassembled for shipment to
you. You need to bolt them back together and you have an airworthy
plane. The kits we are discussing on this list are definitely not
that sort of plane at all. Our kits cost about half as much as the
same design would cost in that "Some assembly required" mode.
I will give you credit for persistence. Most people with all the
misunderstandings you seem to have about building a plane would have
quit a long time ago.
I wish you luck.
Paul
Xl barely started
do not archive
Message 41
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| Subject: | fiberglass wingtips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
I'm going to add to this line of discussion , out of my better judgment
and knowing that Mike will no doubt differ in opinion (which by all
means he is more then entitled to, I just hope that this time he tempers
his personal attack.) I am a plans builder above all else on this list,
simply due to the fact that I cannot imagine not having a project on the
go! I love every aspect of building the forms and thinking of creative
ways of how to make parts without buying a 12 ft shear or break (check
out Larry M's or the ch601.org website to understand that comment).
I purchased the fiberglass stab tips and wing tips 3yrs ago from Zenair
in Canada ( I hate going to bed itchy, hence the metal plane and an
unfinished Osprey 2 in my garage), which manufactures all fiberglass
parts for ZAC as well as 601, 640, 2000 and 801 parts. When I brought
home the parts, I dry fitted my stab tips in place 3 yrs ago and they
fitted perfectly no shaping, heating or finessing needed, a month later
I noticed that the sides were bowing in a bit and didn't quite fit as
nice as before. Nevertheless, I did not install them at that time due to
inspection reasons. Last fall I did in fact install them and found that
I needed to add heat (from a heat gun) and with a little pressure, I was
able to once again form them in to perfection. My wing tips were a
different story, they sat on a shelf waiting for me to finish my wings
then I needed to add heat once again to get the final fitting perfect so
that no gap existed and no filler will be needed when it comes time for
paint.
When I sat with the Guys at ZAC during Oshkosh we in fact discussed
this, and in the next series of manuals, hopefully the heating steps
will be added to the photo manual. They understand that fiberglass parts
they produce to be light may have a spring back or shrinkage if you will
over time. They don't experience this when they assemble the Quick build
kits/E-LSA /S-LSA as the fiberglass parts are installed in the wings
within a month of manufacture and require no "finessing". Therefore, if
there using the same parts as we are and have built many more planes
then any of us and have no problems that we are experiencing with the
parts. Are we still going to lay blame on a faulty part? No the fault is
likely in something we did or in the time we took to build.
The question is what should they fix? Using the same parts we use they
have no problems, making the parts to last several months or years
without moving would be either too heavy or costly especially when only
a small amount of heat is needed to bring them into proper shape. Agreed
there should be reference made to this fact in the photo manuals and
mention of that to Nick may be appropriate. Frankly when I mentioned
this to other builders of Seawinds, Harmon Rockets, Europa's they find
it a non issue and standard practice of fiberglass, is it only cause
were building one of the least expensive best recognized metal kits, or
is it because being a Chris Heintz Design we expect perfection?
All in all, I understand that better knowledge in this area would
decrease issues, but if the guys that are paying over $80,000 for there
fiberglass kits find this a non issue(I showed it to the Seawind guy)
when I mention it to them, then to hear it on this list seems a bit
petty! Come on guys pull out your heat guns, lets not pay for a carbon
fiber/ Kevlar stabilizer tip!!
As a side note for the rest of you who do not know, Mike was one of the
most eager XL builders, and in that he had somehow built a fuselage for
his XL before the plans were released, I believe going by what ZAC knew
at the time. This is when Chris still had the prototype XL with center
wings and mains in the wings like the HD and HDS, ZAC knew no
difference, then in a sudden change Chris re-Designed the fuselage to be
as you see it today. Mike at that time was caught with a HD rear
fuselage, which he did not want so he got rid of it to build the XL. I
started building my kit from the original release of the plans which if
I had kept track of has had over 500 changes in them, some of which I
had to remake as well. However, I blame myself totally, you should never
buy the first year of anything for you are the true experimenter and all
the others that follow you are better off from your knowledge and
responses to the company. Mike on the other hand has blamed the company
for many woes. HE see's things differently, and that's fine, this isn't
my first Zenith product I have worked on and I have already started on
the 701, plus I will be building others over the next few years, I'm not
discouraged in my re-making parts due to drawing errors for the plans
builder, I'm just learning the value of the kit.
Mike, if I have stated anything wrongly I do apologize, these are the
details as I think I know them. Over the years you have been a great
help to this list but your responses about ZAC are a tad inflammatory
and are a personal opinion and experence of very few.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751
President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
--
8/24/2005
Message 42
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
In a message dated 8/25/2005 10:47:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lrm01@centurytel.net writes:
www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
Larry,
You must really enjoy the building portion of your plane. Have you ever flown
it yet?
Bob Spudis
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