Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:09 AM - HDS Wing Tank Placement (Gary A. Boothe)
2. 07:26 AM - Re: battery location (Larry)
3. 07:51 AM - Re: HDS Wing Tank Placement (Jeff Davidson)
4. 09:13 AM - my experience with ZAC (Brett Hanley)
5. 09:28 AM - Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest (Robert Schoenberger)
6. 11:40 AM - Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest (Hal Rozema)
7. 01:19 PM - Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest (Bill Steer)
8. 06:32 PM - Zodiac 601 XL Nose Gear (gpjann@juno.com)
9. 06:59 PM - Re: wing tips (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
10. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
11. 07:18 PM - Re: Zodiac 601 XL Nose Gear (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
12. 10:31 PM - Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
13. 10:31 PM - Re: my experience with ZAC (ROBERT SCEPPA)
14. 10:38 PM - Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest (Hal Rozema)
15. 10:38 PM - Re: Zodiac 601 XL Nose Gear (N5SL)
16. 10:38 PM - Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | HDS Wing Tank Placement |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
List,
A week or two ago somebody gave the dimensions for moving the nose ribs to make
room for LE tanks. Thought I had saved that. Can anyone help?
Gary Boothe, Cool, Ca
<gboothe@calply.com>
601HDSTD, WW Corvair Conv. - complete
Tail Group - complete. Awaiting wing kit...
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: battery location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
Brett, your EA81 weighs 205 and you will need 15lbs in the tail. That is an
exact setup a friend of my has. E-mail me off list and I will give you his
name, number and e-mail address. Look on my site and you can see how I did
my access door.
Larry Martin, N1345L www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Hanley" <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: battery location
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brett Hanley <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
>
> I am installing the battery last. The battery is a
> relatively heavy item that can be used to adjust the
> center of gravity. Once the plane is complete and
> test run on the ground I plan to do the weight and
> balance. I suspect the battery will be somewhere in
> the tail section. The access door will be as small as
> possible but could be used for inspection as well. I
> am building a 701 with a Subaru EA-81.
>
> Brett
>
>
> Time: 05:41:25 PM PST US
> From: "Brian Briggerman" <blb7037@cox.net>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Battery access door on 601XL
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brian Briggerman"
> <blb7037@cox.net>
>
> I am putting together the rear fuselage side skins and
> don't see any
> access to
> the fuselage after the plane is built. I don't have
> the big door
> underneath shown
>
>
> --
>
>
--
Message 3
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| Subject: | HDS Wing Tank Placement |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Davidson" <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
A week or two ago somebody gave the dimensions for moving the nose ribs to
make room for LE tanks. Thought I had saved that. Can anyone help?
Gary,
On the HD wing, the nose rib at station 650 is moved to station 965.
An additional rib, formed opposite the rib moved to 965, is add at station
170 leaving 40 between the rib at 130 and the added rib at 170. I used A6
rivets to attach the L doubler for the new rib instead of the AD5. The aft
tank support (the 2 Ls) are at station 930. The HDS is different.
Jeff Davidson
CH 601 HD
Message 4
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| Subject: | my experience with ZAC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brett Hanley <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
I am building a 701 from plans. I started the project
with a set of fourth edition plans. The construction
process has been a real adventure. Many new skills
have been learned in the process. Overall the
experience has been positive. I have been lurking as
well as active on this list for years. Over this time
many posts have been made complaining of ZAC. Most
builders problems come from two areas. The first is
the builders competence at blueprint reading. If you
do not have good blueprint reading skills consider a
course at your local community college. During my
building process I had a few times that I thought the
plans where in error. In almost every case I later
discovered that the plans where correct and my
interpretation was incorrect. Now if I come across an
"error" in the plans I start checking my work and
generally I will find the error is mine. Most of the
true errors have now been corrected in the current
edition of the plans. The second problem is kit parts
manufactured incorrectly. There have been more than
several cases where ZAC has supplied parts that where
incorrectly made. However, I have NEVER heard of a
case where ZAC would not make good on the error. ZAC
does stand behind their product. In my opinion there
is no one in the industry that stands behind their
product better. Their support is excellent. In the
past few years they have updated their plans as well
as construction manuals for the701. Most of the
errors discussed here lately have already been
corrected. I plan to start another project next year.
It too will most likely be o ZAC design. Just cant
find more bang for the buck anywhere.
If you are serious about starting a first time project
don't let the naysayers scare you off. Do your
homework. You will most likely need to learn some new
skills. Learning those skills may require some home
study or even seminars. There will be plenty of times
you will feel confused. Find a mentor on line or near
you. Someone that is now flying the aircraft you are
building. They will be a gold mine of information and
inspiration. Use this list for help if you need it.
Never be afraid to call the factory. There is plenty
of support out there. For me there is nothing like a
flight in my friends 701 to fire up my stagnant
project!!
Brett Hanley
CH 701 Plans built
San Jose Costa Rica
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
Hal . . . Nice email. I really enjoyed your 701 web site (
http://theplanefolks.net/gallery/ ) for its completeness and ideas on how to
build in a limited space. It's a nice supplement to the photo assembly
guide, and I hope most 701 builders look at it. What is the grey or white
coating on the inside of the fus? Robert Schoenberger 55% 701
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema
>>
>> Gentlemen:
>>
>> I hate to put down all the gripes and sour grapes. My advise is "Get on
>> with building your plane, and shut up". (There's a great book just out
>> called "Shut up and Sing" but that's another matter)
>>
>> I'm a very busy 75 year old architectural designer working 50 or more
>> hours a week. I built all the components of my 701 here in a downtown
>> Phoenix condominium.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
Hi Robert:
Thanks for the compliment. Ask anything any time.
The grey primer is a rattle can product "Self-Etching Primer". Spray on
over aluminum that has been cleaned by paper towel wipe with any good
solvent to get grease and dust off. I can't remember the name of the
manufacturer so I will leave your e-mail in my "hot" folder until I go
to the hangar again. It is fairly expensive, about $11 a can as I
recall but it beats trying to use any Alodine or similar process. I was
in engineering during the Korean war, F84 production, and to be properly
done most of those procedures require a tank to submerge parts in for
cleaning, then a submerge water rinse, then submerge in the Alodine.
Builders who are using a mop it on, spray it off technique are wasting
time and making a big mess. I tried to do it building my rudder (I
think there are photo in the TPF web site... where the rudder is rather
brassy looking) Not satisfactory.
If you don't hear from me in a week. Write again.
Hal
Robert Schoenberger wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
>
>Hal . . . Nice email. I really enjoyed your 701 web site (
>http://theplanefolks.net/gallery/ ) for its completeness and ideas on how to
>build in a limited space. It's a nice supplement to the photo assembly
>guide, and I hope most 701 builders look at it. What is the grey or white
>coating on the inside of the fus? Robert Schoenberger 55% 701
>
>
>>-------------- Original message --------------
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema
>>>
>>>Gentlemen:
>>>
>>>I hate to put down all the gripes and sour grapes. My advise is "Get on
>>>with building your plane, and shut up". (There's a great book just out
>>>called "Shut up and Sing" but that's another matter)
>>>
>>>I'm a very busy 75 year old architectural designer working 50 or more
>>>hours a week. I built all the components of my 701 here in a downtown
>>>Phoenix condominium.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
Might it be Mar-Hyde 5111, which fits both the description and the price?
I'm using it on my 601, with great results.
Bill
> The grey primer is a rattle can product "Self-Etching Primer". Spray on
> over aluminum that has been cleaned by paper towel wipe with any good
> solvent to get grease and dust off. I can't remember the name of the
> manufacturer so I will leave your e-mail in my "hot" folder until I go
Message 8
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| Subject: | Zodiac 601 XL Nose Gear |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: gpjann@juno.com
I'm looking for layout with parts on the XL Nose gear setup.
Any body able to help?
GPJ
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
On the heat option. To help adjust my tips I used a paint heat gun set on low
and worked the material until it fit. All zipped up nice and tight. FWIW I
have done my share of complaining and whining about this and that about both ZAC
and Jab stuff, but they have always helped when I asked for it. I rebuilt a
classic '55 Chevy 2door hard top sport coupe some years ago. An older fellow
who lived just up the street, Charles, a retired GM worker, was also building
one and I complained to him that certain parts did not mate up just right.
Charles' answer was that when he was building our cars in 1955 they weren't
building a Ferrari or Masaratti, they were mass produced and tolerance was marginal.
He taught me to just work the material. That's what a craftsman does. I tried
to do the same with my XL (which I got up to 145 today) and I still have and
drive my '55. Let's all try to get along and work the material, Best regards,
Bill of Georgia
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Jeff, sounds like your plane is a mirror to mine except you may have more
better instruments in the dash. The AMD factory fellows weighed my XL with their
digital scales and came to 782 pounds without wheel pants so I would say your
close. I flew my 10th hour off today and will be down for a period for the
required maintenance and a bum radio that screams when I key the net. Got more
rpms today than ever before after changing the SCAT air pipe from the filter box
to the carb with a smooth rubber radiator hose. Your building hours are much
the same as mine. I called it done at 1300, but I am still tweaking and that
doesn't count, does it ? Best to you, Bill of Georgia
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Zodiac 601 XL Nose Gear |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
gpjann@juno.com wrote......
<<<<I'm looking for layout with parts on the XL Nose gear setup.
Any body able to help?>>>
You mean something other than the blueprint/drawings? I'm not sure I know
what you mean.
Dave
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Hal, how the hell are you ! ?!
I have missed you. Don't be a stranger. When do we get to see photos of your
plane ? Best regards, Bill of Georgia
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: my experience with ZAC |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> Bob Sceppa <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> Brett, I agree with you. I have been involved in
> building planes since 1967. I worked with wood,
> metal steel tube and fabric plus a little
> fiberglass too. Brett there are 2 kinds of builders.
> Kit builders and home builders. Kit builders should
> have no complaints all they have to do is drill and
> fit. Home builders have to make all the parts and
> they have to fit. So it takes a little more time,
> but its a learning experience. Thats what EAA is all
> about. If we don't know how to do, how are we to
> accomplish our goal of building our own plane? Its
> also helpful to belong to a chapter that has the
> skilled people who have already been through the
> process. Thanks for listening hope it helped a few
> non-believers in themselves....
> Bob Sceppa....Plans builder 701
> Arlington MA
> Brett Hanley <bretttdc@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brett Hanley
> <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
>
>
> I am building a 701 from plans. I started the
> project
> with a set of fourth edition plans. The
> construction
> process has been a real adventure. Many new skills
> have been learned in the process. Overall the
> experience has been positive. I have been lurking
> as
> well as active on this list for years. Over this
> time
> many posts have been made complaining of ZAC. Most
> builders problems come from two areas. The first is
> the builders competence at blueprint reading. If
> you
> do not have good blueprint reading skills consider a
> course at your local community college. During my
> building process I had a few times that I thought
> the
> plans where in error. In almost every case I later
> discovered that the plans where correct and my
> interpretation was incorrect. Now if I come across
> an
> "error" in the plans I start checking my work and
> generally I will find the error is mine. Most of
> the
> true errors have now been corrected in the current
> edition of the plans. The second problem is kit
> parts
> manufactured incorrectly. There have been more than
> several cases where ZAC has supplied parts that
> where
> incorrectly made. However, I have NEVER heard of a
> case where ZAC would not make good on the error.
> ZAC
> does stand behind their product. In my opinion there
> is no one in the industry that stands behind their
> product better. Their support is excellent. In the
> past few years they have updated their plans as well
> as construction manuals for the701. Most of the
> errors discussed here lately have already been
> corrected. I plan to start another project next
> year.
> It too will most likely be o ZAC design. Just cant
> find more bang for the buck anywhere.
>
> If you are serious about starting a first time
> project
> don't let the naysayers scare you off. Do your
> homework. You will most likely need to learn some
> new
> skills. Learning those skills may require some home
> study or even seminars. There will be plenty of
> times
> you will feel confused. Find a mentor on line or
> near
> you. Someone that is now flying the aircraft you
> are
> building. They will be a gold mine of information
> and
> inspiration. Use this list for help if you need it.
>
> Never be afraid to call the factory. There is
> plenty
> of support out there. For me there is nothing like
> a
> flight in my friends 701 to fire up my stagnant
> project!!
>
>
> Brett Hanley
> CH 701 Plans built
> San Jose Costa Rica
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
thank you Bill... It is Mar-Hyde 5111. It has seemed to work quite well.
Bill Steer wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
>
>Might it be Mar-Hyde 5111, which fits both the description and the price?
>I'm using it on my 601, with great results.
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>>The grey primer is a rattle can product "Self-Etching Primer". Spray on
>>over aluminum that has been cleaned by paper towel wipe with any good
>>solvent to get grease and dust off. I can't remember the name of the
>>manufacturer so I will leave your e-mail in my "hot" folder until I go
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Zodiac 601 XL Nose Gear |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Greg:
I'll send you something in the morning (the information is on my other computer).
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
gpjann@juno.com wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: gpjann@juno.com
I'm looking for layout with parts on the XL Nose gear setup.
Any body able to help?
GPJ
---------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
Hal, Did the FAA put your permission to have your co-builder help with the testing
in writing? Is there some fine print we have overlooked, perhaps written
in microprinting around the FAA seal, or concealed in embossed Sanskrit inside
the back cover of some obscure FAA circular? If that's an official FAA position,
rather than a one-guy interpretation ("go ahead, I have no problem with you
and your co-builder doing the flight testing together.") I think it would
do a lot of us a major boon if we could quote chapter and verse on co-builders'
flight testing privileges.
Paul Rodriguez
601XL/Corvair
fuselagin'
----- Original Message -----
From: Hal Rozema<mailto:hartist1@cox.net>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com JIM JABARU PACIFIC<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com%20JIM%20JABARU%20PACIFIC>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net<mailto:hartist1@cox.net>>
Gentlemen:
I hate to put down all the gripes and sour grapes. My advise is "Get on
with building your plane, and shut up". (There's a great book just out
called "Shut up and Sing" but that's another matter)
I'm a very busy 75 year old architectural designer working 50 or more
hours a week. I built all the components of my 701 here in a downtown
Phoenix condominium. No prior aircraft building experience. Most was
build on out narrow back patio where we had to bring the wings indoors
into our living room to turn them end for end so I could finish the
other wing tip or wing root. I started in 2002 and according to my
meticulous record (Kitlog) I have just over 800 hours invested which
includes studying plans, and developing my own Fire Wall Forward
arrangement for a Jabiru 3300, and fitting electric flaps.
This is my tool list (* indicate Zenith listed categories)
*WORK BENCH two Home Depot party tables 30x72 fastened end to end and
leveled with old business cards.
CARPENTER'S LEVEL, 4 foot, I choose to use instead of the plumb bob
Zenith recommends
* METRIC TAPE MEASURE furnished by Zenith
* CLECO PLIERS from Zenith
*VISE-GRIP HAND CLAMPS I have 6 of different sizes now that i'm nearly done
*WRENCHES which I already had
*ALLEN SET which I already had
*SOCKET SET which I already had
*HAMMER AND MALLET which I already had
*ASSORTED SCREWDRIVERS AND PLIERS which I already had
*LEFT AND RIGHT METAL SHEARS from Zenith
*MANUAL RIVET PULLER from Zenith
I bought a big air compressor and pneumatic puller and sold it after
about 100 rivets.. too slow and noisy. I sold them.
*BATTERY DRILL and assorted drill bits from the Aviation Department at
Home Depot (Step drill is handy) Not smaller than 12V
*FILES small, double cut or mill plus a round chain file
*HACKSAW already had one but never used it (see Dremel Tool below)
DREMEL TOOL the smallest and cheapest. I've used about 100 cut off
discs, cuts a smoother line in aluminum than snips
RIV-NUTS AND 8-32 SCREWS for the FWF/ Engine/Cowling (Note, this is not
a Zenith package
SOLDERING IRON 4500W for electrical work, not part of the Zenith package
WIRE STRIPPER for electrical work, not part of the Zenith package
WIRE CONNECTOR CRIMPER for electrical work, not part of the Zenith
package (Suggest soldering besides just to be sure)
VACUUM SHOP AND SMALL BATTERY POWERED FOR INSIDE THE PLANE
SCALE (1) for weight and balance (one wheel at a time)
ENGINE HOIST borrow from EAA Chapter member
WING STANDS borrow from EAA Chapter member
WIFE (provide your own, not someone else's) handy for pushing one out to
the hangar, drilling, bringing food, lifting wings, debarring, getting
seats upholstered, running the Vac, filing in holes I've made with "hole
filler", talking to visitors while you continue to work, flying
co-pilot (she's worked on it so the FAA say she can be aboard to take
notes etc. during the 40 hour fly off)).
Not needed: Bench Vise, Anvil (not the chorus), Brake, Shear, Bench
Grinder, Lathe, Drill Press, Belt Sander, Router, Shaper, Wife that
shows no interest , thinks your nutz, and says so, OR somebody else's wife.
Note when I departed from Zenith's Rotax Engine Options, I have been on
my own, but Sebastian, Nick and Roger have been helpful whenever called
on with just about any issue. Jim McCormick, the west coast Jabiru
dealer has been superb as well. Can't say enough about Jabiru, either,
we went through 4 engine mounts before they got everything right and
they did it without charge or complaint.
If I had read all the fault finders e-mails back in 2002, I probably
would not have had the nerve to attempt the project, as it is I'm
assuming these people also grumble about everything: in their work,
their family, their car, their medicine and their Na Na who obviously
neglected them as children.
Time to stop writing complaints, figure things out for yourself, get
help when need and let's all get our airplanes flying.
You can check my elaborately equipped workshop on the Construction
Gallery on my web site at http://theplanefolks.net/gallery/<http://theplanefolks.net/gallery/>
Bless you all and thanks to the listers who have helped me in the past.
Hal Rozema
ThePlaneFolks.Net
Gig Giacona wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net<mailto:wr.giacona@cox.net>>
>
>I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest.
>I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest.
>I'm not going to get involved in this flame fest.
>
>Yeah, I am.
>
>Does Zenith marketing make it look like it is going to be easier than it is
>to build their planes?
>
>Of course they do. All of the kit makers make it look easier than it is.
>Just as all toilet bowl cleaner's advertising makes it look like your wife
>will be cleaning the john in an evening gown.
>But we, as adult's who grew up in an age of advertising, should have
>developed a filter that allows us to decode a certain amount of this. Did i
>beleive for a second that I would complete the 601XL in 300 hours. Hell no.
>
>Take a look at this http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/tools.htm<http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/tools.htm>. Could you
>build their aircraft with JUST those tools? Maybe. Has anyone built a Zenith
>plane with just those tools? No. Did I really think I would? No.
>
>I really only have one major complant about Zenith.
>
>1. The construction manual. It is very step by step on the tail and the
>wings Once you get to the fuselage it makes some huge assumptions and skips
>over or doesn't explane several steps.
>
>Now Paul, your very new to building your plane and have only built what is
>the most well explained part in the kit. I'd suggest you dial it back a
>little.
>
>GigG
>
>
>
>
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