---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/03/05: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:27 AM - Sad Message Off Topic (Zodie Rocket) 2. 09:02 AM - Re: 601XL Jab 3300 Carb Econo Tuning Kit (Paul Hartl) 3. 11:57 AM - Re: Engine mounts (Tebenkof@aol.com) 4. 01:47 PM - [ Richard Musser ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 5. 03:47 PM - Zodiac 601 Nose Gear (gpjann@juno.com) 6. 03:55 PM - Jabriu 3300A/601XL - Running Fuel Tank Dry () 7. 04:43 PM - Completed at last! (Larry McFarland) 8. 04:52 PM - Re: XL Specification for Vne, and Rotax vs Jabiru Horsepower. (Leo Corbalis) 9. 07:02 PM - Rivuts (William J. Naumuk) 10. 07:14 PM - Re: Valve Adjustment (Brandon Tucker) 11. 07:33 PM - Re: Rivuts (ron dewees) 12. 07:34 PM - Re: Rivuts (Mike Fothergill) 13. 08:26 PM - Re: Rivnuts (Brandon Tucker) 14. 09:03 PM - Re: Re: Rivnuts (Graham Kirby) 15. 09:30 PM - Re: Rivuts (Leo Corbalis) 16. 10:48 PM - Re: Re: Rivnuts (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:53 AM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: Zenith-List: Sad Message Off Topic --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" Well I got the first message yesterday I was hoping not to see. As many of you know I have a fuselage for an Osprey 2 that I picked up at Sun-n-Fun this past year. The fellow who delivered it to me came all the way from Diamondhead Mississippi. He had stripped out all the metal parts from my fuselage and the spars for his own plane. Yesterday I got this letter. Hello Osprey Lovers and Builders, My hopes and aspirations to finish my Osprey project for SnF 2007 and land in Lake Parker came to screaching halt on Monday morning as a certain southern lady came sweeping into my home and hangar and took them and my project for a ride a little north of their respective foundations. My wife says she saw the project leaning on a tree apparently intact. I don't know the condition of the wood at this point. It had not been varnished yet. I will not try to do anything further to it except try to keep it out of the weather, although I don't know how or with what. No suggestions, please. There are a few hangars still standing but with no sides. Don't ask for photos as all our cameras were in the house. Turn on CNN. As soon as I can recover it and any associated parts, I will announce to the group that first come, first served can come get it at no charge. Please do not e-mail me to get yourself on some kind of waiting list. I will not have time for it and will not honor any requests to do so. When I announce that it is available (may be a month or so) I will include directions and a contact number to its location, which obviously will be in the impact area. That ought to give you an idea of whether or not you want to bother. In the meantime, I will not have time to act as a moderator on this group and will turn off my e-mail notifications of new members and moderated messages. Mark, my man! Sorry, but I won't be able to bring that spar material to SnF '06. Tony Vaz Formerly Osprey797 I hope this is the last message we see like this, I can't fathom walking away from my projects but I guess if you have nothing else left of your life why keep a hobbie! Cdngoose HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org/"www.ch601.org HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com/"www.ch701.com HYPERLINK "http://www.osprey2.com/"www.osprey2.com do not archive -- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:50 AM PST US From: "Paul Hartl" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Jab 3300 Carb Econo Tuning Kit --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Hartl" Hi Bill, I got one, too, and am wondering about the lack of instructions. I went to Jabiru's Australian website and downloaded the file you mentioned, but as you said, it wasn't long on instructions. Could you email the instructions you got from Tony? As for drill bit sizes, 1.6mm is close to being 1/16" - it's actually 1/15.88" - and is halfway between a number 52 and 53 bit (check out http://bobmay.astronomy.net/misc/drillchart.htm for a great drill bit chart on the internet), so I would imagine that 1/16", which is slightly too small (0.625" instead of 0.063" in decimal form) would be OK, no? Paul -- Paul Hartl, N414PZ, 601HDS/Jabiru 3300A Flight Simulator 2002/4 Zodiac Website: www.members.cox.net/paulhartl Sun Valley, Idaho 83340 208-788-9147 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:57:29 AM PST US From: Tebenkof@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine mounts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com Dave, No, I don't know of a source for the rubber mounts, but I bet ZAC would tell you. I am curious though. How many hours do have on the old ones? Jim Greenough Portland, OR ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [ Richard Musser ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Richard Musser Lists: Zenith-List Subject: Completed At Last http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Ricchardd@aol.com.09.03.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac 601 Nose Gear From: gpjann@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: gpjann@juno.com If anyone is building a HD or HDS tri-gear model or concerned about their nose gear structure please look at the XL's Firewall and Nose Gear Upper Bearing dawings Mainly Drawings 6-B-7, 6-B-8 and 6-G-2 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:40 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Jabriu 3300A/601XL - Running Fuel Tank Dry --> Zenith-List message posted by: Thanks Pete, Ran the first test to fuel exhaustion today. Ran L/H aux tank dry. Engine quit abruptly; prop windmilled. Switched tank then turned on boost pump. Time from quit to restart estimated to be 4 7 seconds. Conditions. Altitude 5,500 ft. Indicated air speed 107 kts ((actual per GPS runs 107 kts (123 mph)) at 2600 - 2650 rpm at 4.7 4.8 gph. (My airplane has more drag than most XLs, because it has large wheels/tires/brakes with no fairings). Forgot to annotate TAS, but I believe it was 112 kts. Tony Graziano N493TG 21.4 hrs into Phase I testing ------------------------------------------- Time: 07:46:51 AM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabriu 3300A/601XL - Running Fuel Tank Dry --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" Tony, We have run a tank dry many times in our cross country flights - most times we were timing how long it took to empty a tank (3 hours 40 minutes on the Jabiru J250) but sometimes we just forgot to switch to the other wing. The prop will windmill above 60 knots. Just turning on the other tank resulted in an instant start every time. On one occasion I wanted to see what would happen if prop stopped do I pulled it into a stall. After prop stopped windmilling it was obvious I had a better glide ratio. Just a brief touch of the starter resulted in another instant start. If the engine is off for an extended glide (for what reason I don't know) the intake pipes may cool and choke may be required for a quick start. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tonyplane@bellsouth.net Subject: Zenith-List: Jabriu 3300A/601XL - Running Fuel Tank Dry --> Zenith-List message posted by: Has anyone ran their Jab 3300/601XL to fuel exhaustion (deliberately or by accident) on a tank? If so, what were the indications, if any, of impending power loss. Did prop windmill? What "restart" procedures were used ? My XL has 4 tanks and I assume that I will one day run dry on a tank. As the Jab is a quick starting smooth running engine, I do not expect any problems with restart, but ..... Thanks, Tony Graziano, Buchanan, Tn N493TG, 60lXL ser 6-5342, 18 hours, 18 Flights into Phase I Test flying and enjoying every minute. Have flown gross wt at Aft CG and Fwd CG. Stalls benign. Max altitude flown 10k ft - minus 1 ft (Alt ncdr yet to be certified), preliminary Vx, Vy; speed checks; AP checks, etc ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:58 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Zenith-List: Completed at last! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Richard, I looked at your pictures on the photo share. Congratulations on such a fine looking 601. Do keep us informed on your performance. Really like to hear what you think of the 4-bladed prop. Also the Ram engine and your cooling system. Please put it all together for us (Zenith fliers), weight, horsepower, airspeed and noise level etc. It's a beautiful plane. Larry McFarland - 601HDS ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:49 PM PST US From: "Leo Corbalis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Specification for Vne, and Rotax vs Jabiru Horsepower. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis" I presume you are using a carved or molded fixed pitch prop. When I checked around before I picked the Woodcomp in-flight adjustable 3100 rpm was the highest I could find. A small fast turning prop will not produce as much thrust as a larger slower prop. This is a given within normal limits. Changing pitch in - flight really improves performance. If th Sonex has a wider speed range, which I assume, you'd benefit more than me from changing pitch from climb to cruise. Leo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Boultinghouse" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Specification for Vne, and Rotax vs Jabiru Horsepower. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Boultinghouse" > > > Leo, > > I think you'll get some disagreement from the dozens of Sonex drivers out > there who happily spin their Sensenich and Prince props right up to (and > sometimes beyond) 3300 rpm! Sure seems to be a useful enough rpm range to > spank the living daylights (speed-wise) out of any Zodiac on the planet. > And > they don't seem to be having any issues with blades leaving their happy > hub > either! > > Just a thought. : > ) > > -Chris > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Leo Corbalis >> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:08 AM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Specification for Vne, and Rotax vs Jabiru >> Horsepower. >> >> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis" >> >> >> 3300 rpm is not a very useful speed range for available propellers. Most >> props are limited to lower rpm. centrifugal force increases as >> the square of >> the rpm causing prop blades to leave their happy hub and fly off into the >> great beyond. Yes I know about the racers that crank 4000 rpm out >> of a C-90. >> They are engineered to do it. >> >> Leo Corbalis > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:22 PM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Rivuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" All- Looking through the archives, there are two schools of thought when it comes to rivnuts. I have a question for each of the alternatives: 1. If you do use rivnuts, where do you get the special studs that enable you to pull them with a regular rivet gun? They're not listed in AS+S, and I have an inquiry in to them. Being the holiday weekend, I figured I might get an answer from you guys first. 2. The alternative is to use nut plates. AS+S offers them, but there are no dimensions to go by so I know if I have enough room to mount them. Can anyone tell me the overall length, width, and rivet hole spacing for an 8-32 nut plate? Thanks. Bill ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:12 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Valve Adjustment --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Scott, You did the valve job exactly right. I did mine last month using the same procedure. The benefit of a corvair with the oil pan off is that you can see the lifters, and can tell when a valve is shut by the position of the adjacent lifter. You use TDC for other engines in which you cannot see the lifters. Simply looking at the adjacent makes it simpler than rotating to and finding TDC for each cylinder. I have also done the running method as well on my old chevy small block. It did work for me, but it makes a mess. I never want to do it behind a moving prop. You will have oil everywhere... R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:39 PM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Hi Bill, Re the rivnuts, you can get the tool and a selection of rivnuts from Harbor Freight for $12 or so. My experience is that it's very easy to pull the threads out of the 4-40 size rivnuts, but the larger 6-32, and 8-32 are more substantial. You might get the tool from Harbor Freight and the rivnuts from ACS or similar quality supplier.It's certainly not just an aircraft application so there should be several suppliers. There are places where they do an excellent job but I wouldn't want anything very structural held together with them. Re the nutplates, the ones I have used require countersinking the plate with small pop rivets and it's sort of tight to drill 3 holes close together but not compromise the edge dimensions. I am sure the problem is less pronounced with larger nutplates. Good luck Ron in Atlanta N601TD . Naumuk wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" > >All- > Looking through the archives, there are two schools of thought when it comes to rivnuts. I have a question for each of the alternatives: > 1. If you do use rivnuts, where do you get the special studs that enable you to pull them with a regular rivet gun? They're not listed in AS+S, and I have an inquiry in to them. Being the holiday weekend, I figured I might get an answer from you guys first. > 2. The alternative is to use nut plates. AS+S offers them, but there are no dimensions to go by so I know if I have enough room to mount them. Can anyone tell me the overall length, width, and rivet hole spacing for an 8-32 nut plate? > Thanks. > Bill > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:52 PM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill Re the special studs: You can use regular hex head bolts, with the heads cut off to pull rivnuts. Mike UHS Spinners C-FRND 601HDS (All rivets pulled by hand.) William J. Naumuk wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" > > All- > Looking through the archives, there are two schools of thought when it comes to rivnuts. I have a question for each of the alternatives: > 1. If you do use rivnuts, where do you get the special studs that enable you to pull them with a regular rivet gun? They're not listed in AS+S, and I have an inquiry in to them. Being the holiday weekend, I figured I might get an answer from you guys first. > 2. The alternative is to use nut plates. AS+S offers them, but there are no dimensions to go by so I know if I have enough room to mount them. Can anyone tell me the overall length, width, and rivet hole spacing for an 8-32 nut plate? > Thanks. > Bill > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:22 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Rivnuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Bill, AS&S does carry the studs you speak of. I have one, and it does work, but not very well. They are also quite expensive, over $10 if I remember correctly. I recently got this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1210 This tool was recommended by my EAA chapter's technical councelor, an AI and DAR. It works MUCH better than the studs, and is about the same price as one stud. R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:00 PM PST US From: "Graham Kirby" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Rivnuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graham Kirby" Brandon This looks like a wonderful alternative! Im curious, are there splines on the inserts or is there some other way to stop them rotating? If its just the grip pressure that keeps them in place I can imagine how annoying it would be if the insert came loose and started to rotate. Thanks Graham Kirby 601HD ..... I recently got this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1210 This tool was recommended by my EAA chapter's technical councelor, an AI and DAR. It works MUCH better than the studs, and is about the same price as one stud. R/ Brandon ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:23 PM PST US From: "Leo Corbalis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis" I have used rivnuts in several non structural places and I don't like them. After a couple of rivnuts started twisting in their holes when I tried to remove the screw, I switched to rivnuts from AS&S with a key ridge on the back side. I ground down a hacksaw blade to fit inthe hole as a "pull" saw. This cut a slot to engage the key. I just checked the cataolg and the keyed rivnuts aren't listed. Later I switched to "nutserts" from AS&S which work much better. With nutserts, use a backplate as thick as the minimum specified if the skin isn't thick enough. Nutserts work much better as they resist slipping when you overtorque them. Leo Corbalis ----- Original Message ----- From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Rivuts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" > > > All- > Looking through the archives, there are two schools of thought when it > comes to rivnuts. I have a question for each of the alternatives: > 1. If you do use rivnuts, where do you get the special studs that > enable you to pull them with a regular rivet gun? They're not listed in > AS+S, and I have an inquiry in to them. Being the holiday weekend, I > figured I might get an answer from you guys first. > 2. The alternative is to use nut plates. AS+S offers them, but there > are no dimensions to go by so I know if I have enough room to mount them. > Can anyone tell me the overall length, width, and rivet hole spacing for > an 8-32 nut plate? > Thanks. > Bill > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:39 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Rivnuts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower We use them with a drop or epoxy... Also keep the bolt greased, if they get corroed the nutriv will turn in its place and then no way to open... been there happened that. Saludos Gary Gower Graham Kirby wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graham Kirby" Brandon This looks like a wonderful alternative! Im curious, are there splines on the inserts or is there some other way to stop them rotating? If its just the grip pressure that keeps them in place I can imagine how annoying it would be if the insert came loose and started to rotate. Thanks Graham Kirby 601HD ..... I recently got this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1210 This tool was recommended by my EAA chapter's technical councelor, an AI and DAR. It works MUCH better than the studs, and is about the same price as one stud. R/ Brandon ---------------------------------