Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:34 AM - Re: Jabriu 3300A/601XL - Running Fuel Tank Dry ()
2. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: Rivnuts (Brandon Tucker)
3. 08:02 AM - Re: Rivuts (Hal Rozema)
4. 10:22 AM - Anyone buck riveting an XL? (Doug Naylor)
5. 10:28 AM - Rivnuts_2 (William J. Naumuk)
6. 10:31 AM - Re: XL Specification for Vne, and Rotax vs Jabiru Horsepower. (James Ferris)
7. 10:42 AM - creases in sheet aluminum (Brad Cohen)
8. 11:07 AM - Re: creases in sheet aluminum (Paul Mulwitz)
9. 11:08 AM - Re: XL Specification for Vne, and Rotax vs Jabiru Horsepower. (ivor.phillips)
10. 11:46 AM - Re: creases in sheet aluminum (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
11. 01:24 PM - Re: creases in sheet aluminum (William J. Naumuk)
12. 01:35 PM - First flight (Jim Pensinger)
13. 01:35 PM - Rivnut puller (William J. Naumuk)
14. 02:46 PM - Re: Rivnut puller (Larry McFarland)
15. 11:03 PM - Re: First flight (n801bh@netzero.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Jabriu 3300A/601XL - Running Fuel Tank Dry |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
"Time from quit to restart estimated to be 4 7 seconds."
Should read:
"Time from quit to restart estimated to be 4 to 7 seconds."
Tony Graziano
N493TG
Time: 03:55:40 PM PST US
From: <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Jabriu 3300A/601XL - Running Fuel Tank Dry
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
Thanks Pete,
Ran the first test to fuel exhaustion today. Ran L/H aux tank dry. Engine quit
abruptly; prop windmilled. Switched tank then turned on boost pump. Time
from quit to restart estimated to be 4 7 seconds.
Conditions.
Altitude 5,500 ft. Indicated air speed 107 kts ((actual per GPS runs 107 kts
(123
mph)) at 2600 - 2650 rpm at 4.7 4.8 gph. (My airplane has more drag than
most XLs, because it has large wheels/tires/brakes with no fairings). Forgot
to annotate TAS, but I believe it was 112 kts.
Tony Graziano
N493TG 21.4 hrs into Phase I testing
-------------------------------------------
Time: 07:46:51 AM PST US
From: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabriu 3300A/601XL - Running Fuel Tank Dry
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pete Krotje" <pkrotje@athenet.net>
Tony,
We have run a tank dry many times in our cross country flights - most times
we were timing how long it took to empty a tank (3 hours 40 minutes on the
Jabiru J250) but sometimes we just forgot to switch to the other wing. The
prop will windmill above 60 knots. Just turning on the other tank resulted
in an instant start every time.
On one occasion I wanted to see what would happen if prop stopped do I
pulled it into a stall. After prop stopped windmilling it was obvious I had
a better glide ratio. Just a brief touch of the starter resulted in another
instant start.
If the engine is off for an extended glide (for what reason I don't know)
the intake pipes may cool and choke may be required for a quick start.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
tonyplane@bellsouth.net
Subject: Zenith-List: Jabriu 3300A/601XL - Running Fuel Tank Dry
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
Has anyone ran their Jab 3300/601XL to fuel exhaustion (deliberately or by
accident) on a tank? If so, what were the indications, if any, of impending
power loss. Did prop windmill? What "restart" procedures were used ? My
XL has 4 tanks and I assume that I will one day run dry on a tank. As the
Jab is a quick starting smooth running engine, I do not expect any problems
with restart, but .....
Thanks,
Tony Graziano, Buchanan, Tn
N493TG, 60lXL ser 6-5342,
18 hours, 18 Flights into Phase I Test flying and enjoying every minute.
Have flown gross wt at Aft CG and Fwd CG. Stalls benign. Max altitude
flown 10k ft - minus 1 ft (Alt ncdr yet to be certified), preliminary Vx,
Vy; speed checks; AP checks, etc
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Graham,
No splines in the ones I bought from ACS. There
have been several guys on the list that apply some
epoxy to keep them in place. I did not. Mine have
only been in place a few months, so I cannot testify
to their longevity. They are much easier than
nutplates, though.
R/
Brandon
601 HDS
wiring radios
__________________________________
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
Aircraft Spruce DOES have the adapter. on the same page with the rivnuts
William J. Naumuk wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
>
>All-
> Looking through the archives, there are two schools of thought when it comes
to rivnuts. I have a question for each of the alternatives:
> 1. If you do use rivnuts, where do you get the special studs that enable you
to pull them with a regular rivet gun? They're not listed in AS+S, and I have
an inquiry in to them. Being the holiday weekend, I figured I might get an
answer from you guys first.
> 2. The alternative is to use nut plates. AS+S offers them, but there are no
dimensions to go by so I know if I have enough room to mount them. Can anyone
tell me the overall length, width, and rivet hole spacing for an 8-32 nut plate?
> Thanks.
> Bill
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Anyone buck riveting an XL? |
7.50 BARRACUDA_HEADER_FP56 RBL: Blacklist bl.spamcop
[Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?64.4.51.220>]
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Naylor" <dugnaylor@hotmail.com>
Hi guys,
Is anyone using/used buck-type rivets on their plans or kit built XL? I
know pull-rivets are 100% easier and faster to install, but I...
(1) prefer the clean looks/ slight better aerodynamic performance of buck
rivets
(2) want the slightly better corrosion resistance of buck rivets, as the
plane will be stored outside in the elements.
(3) like the somewhat added strength, and lower cost of buck rivets.
(4) probably have about 6-8 years before I can afford to finish
plans-building the plane, so the additional time it will take to buck rivet
the plane is really not an issue. I also have access to free (borrowed)
buck riveting tools, so the added cost of these kinds of tools is also not a
concern. I should also probably mention the fact that I have my A&P
licenses, so buck riveting won't be a total foreign concept to me.
My only real concerns are:
(1) Since the XL isn't designed to use buck-type rivets, I'm wondering if it
is possible to design removable access panels into the plane to get to areas
that can't normally be accessed from the inside during normal pull-rivet
type construction. And, if the general assembly order of the plane will
allow disassembly/re-assembly to facilitate the required deburring and
countersinking operations. --I haven't yet purchased the plans, so right
now I am mostly in the dark on the design layout of the plane.
(2) I'm also wondering if it is possible to buck the wings. One builder I
spoke to thought the leading edge area might be especially difficult to use
buck rivets on. I'm considering using counter-flush, pull-type rivets on
the wings if need be. --I realize I'll also have to use pull-type rivets on
most, if not all of the control surfaces.
Thank you very much for any advice or suggestions you can provide on this
subject.
Doug
Doug Naylor
Arkansas
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
All-
Wow, the controvery over rivnuts (And AS+S product descriptions) never ends.
AS+S online (Which you would hope is the latest and most up-to-date) offers
the keyed type of insert (Someone said they couldn't find them) but doesn't list
the studs (Someone said they were on the same page as the rivnuts themselves).
What seems to be the best rivnut deal is from Harbor Freight, which provides
30 rivnuts, the puller, and the studs for $12.95. What pisses me off is I was
less than 10 miles from Harbor Freight Friday and never in my wildest dreams
figured they'd have what I needed. With the price of gas lately, you hate to
double the cost of a tool going to pick it up!
Speaking of which, no matter what your opinions of Zenith or the building process,
we made the right decision. I was going to rent a Skyhawk for an hour
2 weeks ago, and found the price went up from $68 to $102/hr since July. God knows
what it is now! Keeping current is going to put a serious crimp my "Disposable"
income earmaked for the project.
One final question- did anyone get around to measuring an 8-32 nut plate for
overall length, width, and rivet hole spacing?
Thanks.
Bill
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: XL Specification for Vne, and Rotax vs Jabiru Horsepower. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris <mijniljj@yahoo.com>
Whewe do you get a woodcomp adj. prop.?
thanks
Jim
--- Leo Corbalis <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis"
> <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I presume you are using a carved or molded fixed
> pitch prop. When I checked
> around before I picked the Woodcomp in-flight
> adjustable 3100 rpm was the
> highest I could find. A small fast turning prop will
> not produce as much
> thrust as a larger slower prop. This is a given
> within normal limits.
> Changing pitch in - flight really improves
> performance. If th Sonex has a
> wider speed range, which I assume, you'd benefit
> more than me from changing
> pitch from climb to cruise.
>
> Leo
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Boultinghouse" <sonex260@austin.rr.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Specification for Vne,
> and Rotax vs Jabiru
> Horsepower.
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris
> Boultinghouse"
> > <sonex260@austin.rr.com>
> >
> > Leo,
> >
> > I think you'll get some disagreement from the
> dozens of Sonex drivers out
> > there who happily spin their Sensenich and Prince
> props right up to (and
> > sometimes beyond) 3300 rpm! Sure seems to be a
> useful enough rpm range to
> > spank the living daylights (speed-wise) out of any
> Zodiac on the planet.
> > And
> > they don't seem to be having any issues with
> blades leaving their happy
> > hub
> > either!
> >
> > Just a thought. :
> > )
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On
> Behalf Of Leo Corbalis
> >> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:08 AM
> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Specification for
> Vne, and Rotax vs Jabiru
> >> Horsepower.
> >>
> >>
> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo Corbalis"
> >> <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
> >>
> >> 3300 rpm is not a very useful speed range for
> available propellers. Most
> >> props are limited to lower rpm. centrifugal force
> increases as
> >> the square of
> >> the rpm causing prop blades to leave their happy
> hub and fly off into the
> >> great beyond. Yes I know about the racers that
> crank 4000 rpm out
> >> of a C-90.
> >> They are engineered to do it.
> >>
> >> Leo Corbalis
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | creases in sheet aluminum |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brad Cohen" <bradfnp@msn.com>
I was wondering how anyone has addressed creases in the thin sheets of aluminum?,
Specifically, creases along the nose skin.
As I put the skin on and wrapped it around the nose ribs I caused two superficial
creases. probably not enough to affect the aerodynamics of the plane and
probably not even noticable if you were not looking. I tried the wooden spoon
trick but they have been pretty stubborn. Is there such a thing as using a small
amount of bondo (microballons)or similar filler prior to painting?
Brad COhen
601XL
Do Not Archieve
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: creases in sheet aluminum |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>I was wondering how anyone has addressed creases in the thin sheets
>of aluminum?, Specifically, creases along the nose skin.
A metal spoon might work better than a wooden one. I use a
cylindrical piece of brass about 1 inch diameter I had laying around
my shop with some success.
Paul
XL waiting for wing kit
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: XL Specification for Vne, and Rotax vs Jabiru Horsepower. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
Ivor Phillips
XS486 London UK
> http://www.woodcomp.cz/en/index.htm
> Whewe do you get a woodcomp adj. prop.?
> thanks
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: creases in sheet aluminum |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
<<<<A metal spoon might work better than a wooden one. >>>>
The key to removing dents and creases from aluminum with a spoon or metal
cylinder, is having a HARD, FLAT surface underneath. A wooden table top does
not work very well. I have a piece of 1/2 inch thick aluminum plate about 8
inches by 16 inches that I place under the dent. I use a smooth (metal) soup
spoon and a few drops of oil to firmly roll out the dent. Try not to SLIDE
the spoon over the surface, but rather ROLL it around over the dented area.
It usually leaves some minor scuffing of the surface (the oil helps prevent
some of that) but polishing or painting will take care of that.
Dave
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: creases in sheet aluminum |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
Brad-
Take it from an expert- if you have longitudinal creases, check your
shims and make sure they're the correct height. I had shims slide out and
created such a mess that I've been almost 2 years getting things right.
If everything's all right in that department, the best way to take care
of any creases, dimples, etc. is to do it the way a body man does- with a
dolly and a plastic and/or hard rubber hammer. So superior don't even think
about spooning.
You can get dollies from either Harbor Freight or JC Whitney for
peanuts. I always use my plastic hammer, a Great Neck that I picked up ages
ago at the True Value down the street. Try it. Honestly, there's no other
way to go.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Cohen" <bradfnp@msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: creases in sheet aluminum
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brad Cohen" <bradfnp@msn.com>
>
> I was wondering how anyone has addressed creases in the thin sheets of
aluminum?, Specifically, creases along the nose skin.
>
> As I put the skin on and wrapped it around the nose ribs I caused two
superficial creases. probably not enough to affect the aerodynamics of the
plane and probably not even noticable if you were not looking. I tried the
wooden spoon trick but they have been pretty stubborn. Is there such a thing
as using a small amount of bondo (microballons)or similar filler prior to
painting?
>
> Brad COhen
> 601XL
> Do Not Archieve
>
>
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pensinger" <jim@pensinger.net>
N250JP had her first flight today. It was a great day (CAVU) for a great
experience. I really had my "Zenith grin" on when I landed the first time.
No problems, no heavy wing but I will need a lot more up elevator trim.
Jim Pensinger
www.tn004.com/N250JP
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
All-
Made up my mind and shot up to Harbor Freight for the rivnut puller. They're
on sale right now. Got the puller, 4 studs (6-32 thru 1/4-20) plus 40 rivnuts
for $12.95. If studs really are $10 each at AS+S, and rivnuts .30 each I more
than made up for the gas it took to get there and back.
Signing off and going to work on the project. I'll let you know if the tool
is OK or a waste of time after I use it tonight.
Bill
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rivnut puller |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Bill,
You're gonna want to set up practice pieces at the diameter and
thickness you're going to use and
you might find it's easy to tear the threads out of a rivnut if pulled
too tight. The bulge you pull also
can break if pulled too tight, so go easy and expend a few on samples
before putting them in your
plane. I've got a few holding strobe boxes in the wings and elsewhere
and I like them, but it
took two for every one I used to get a feel for the right amount of pull
needed for a good bite.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS @ www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
William J. Naumuk wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
>
>All-
> Made up my mind and shot up to Harbor Freight for the rivnut puller. They're
on sale right now. Got the puller, 4 studs (6-32 thru 1/4-20) plus 40 rivnuts
for $12.95. If studs really are $10 each at AS+S, and rivnuts .30 each I more
than made up for the gas it took to get there and back.
> Signing off and going to work on the project. I'll let you know if the tool
is OK or a waste of time after I use it tonight.
> Bill
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: First flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
N250JP had her first flight today. It was a great day (CAVU) for a great
experience. I really had my "Zenith grin" on when I landed the first
time.
No problems, no heavy wing but I will need a lot more up elevator trim.
Jim Pensinger
www.tn004.com/N250JP
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Congrats to you !!!!!!!!!!!!! It will take a long time for that "smile " to go
away to...
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
N250JP had her first flight today. It was a great day (CAVU) for a great
experience. I really had my "Zenith grin" on when I landed the first
time.
No problems, no heavy wing but I will need a lot more up elevator trim.
Jim Pensinger
www.tn004.com/N250JP
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Congrats to you !!!!!!!!!!!!! It will take a long time for that "smile " to go
away to...
BenHaas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
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