---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/20/05: 48 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:29 AM - 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (Rick Framil) 2. 05:35 AM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (B Johnson) 3. 06:45 AM - Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Condon,Philip M.) 4. 07:16 AM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 5. 07:32 AM - Re: Close Call (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 6. 07:49 AM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? () 7. 08:03 AM - EAA Meeting Last Night (Phil Maxson) 8. 08:06 AM - Re: Re: N601LG First Flight! (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 08:29 AM - Re:Close Call (EMAproducts@aol.com) 10. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Rusty) 11. 08:48 AM - Re: EAA Meeting Last Night () 12. 08:50 AM - Close Call Follow Up (john H) 13. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 14. 10:17 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Craig Payne) 15. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Craig Payne) 16. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Allen Ricks) 17. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Samm Munn) 18. 10:43 AM - Re: Close Call () 19. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 20. 10:58 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 21. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 22. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the (Paul Mulwitz) 23. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (B Johnson) 24. 11:13 AM - Re: Close Call Follow Up (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 25. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 26. 12:06 PM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 27. 12:09 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (Craig Payne) 28. 12:20 PM - engine/601 combo and insurance (Rick Framil) 29. 01:06 PM - Re: engine/601 combo and insurance (Allen Ricks) 30. 01:52 PM - Re: N601LG First Flight! (Lance Gingell) 31. 02:14 PM - Re: N601LG First Flight! (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 32. 02:39 PM - Re: N601LG First Flight! (Dave Gardea) 33. 03:07 PM - Re: CH601 HDS with Jabiru 2200 performance (William J. Naumuk) 34. 03:25 PM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (William J. Naumuk) 35. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? () 36. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 (William J. Naumuk) 37. 04:20 PM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (R. Saarinen) 38. 04:56 PM - Re: engine/601 combo and insurance (Al Young) 39. 05:19 PM - Re: Close Call Follow Up (Gary Gower) 40. 05:20 PM - Re: N601LG First Flight! (Al Young) 41. 05:41 PM - Re: Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (William J. Naumuk) 42. 05:51 PM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (William J. Naumuk) 43. 06:02 PM - Re: 2 piece canopy , 601 (Craig) 44. 06:05 PM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (JOHN STARN) 45. 10:22 PM - Re: N601LG First Flight! (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 46. 10:23 PM - HD or HDS suitability for Jabiru 2200 85hp (Darin McLEAN) 47. 10:34 PM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (Jeff Davidson) 48. 10:46 PM - Re: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? (Bryan Martin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:35 AM PST US From: "Rick Framil" Subject: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Framil" Hello, I was wondering if the 601HDS is sport pilot eligible? Rick ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:38 AM PST US From: "B Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" It depends.... I know of at least one HDS that specifically lists his clean stall speed as "exactly" 51mph.... -Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Framil Subject: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Framil" Hello, I was wondering if the 601HDS is sport pilot eligible? Rick -- -- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 From: "Condon,Philip M." --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Actually mine is 50.999mph...:) Infact as far as I can tell from the wiggly ASI needle it really does stall right around 50mph so yes I would say it is compatible. Frank HDS for sale in the next few months...sigh...:( Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Johnson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" It depends.... I know of at least one HDS that specifically lists his clean stall speed as "exactly" 51mph.... -Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Framil Subject: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Framil" Hello, I was wondering if the 601HDS is sport pilot eligible? Rick -- -- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Close Call From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yeah that would concern me too. My Wife even asked me how that could happen when you always look inside the tanks...And she is not a pilot! One can only hope your friend wakes up to the fact he was saved with a healthy does of 1) help from the almighty, 2) luck OR BOTH! Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john H Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Close Call --> Zenith-List message posted by: "john H" Hi Frank The FAA was notified. They were more impressed that he made a safe landing and no one was hurt. The only thing they suggested was not to rely on the fuel gauge and always stick the tank.. I have the sight gauge which is real accurate on the ground but does bounce during flight. I've never had a problem running out or low on fuel. I also have checklists which were not used this time. The more I think about what happened, the more pissed off I get. I don't understand how someone could be so negligent especially with his hours of flying and the education he has. He still doesn't get how serious this mistake was and is more focused on his piloting skills in making such a great emergency landing. >From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Close Call >Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:27:11 -0700 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >Damn! > >Thanks for sharing John, I am at a complete loss how such a serious >brain fart could occur...If the FAA finds out about this I bet they >will be having a serious conversation with him. > >Frank > >Do not archive > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john H >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Close Call > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "john H" > >Hi List > >I have 105hrs on my 601HD. I was going to write a report about how well >and how much fun the plane is to fly, but something happened this >weekend that has kind of shook me up. I went out of town this weekend >for a much needed get away. I left my key so that a friend could fly my >plane while I was gone. He is a young man with several hundred hours of >flying time and a graduate of an Aeronuatical university. We had flown >together for probably >10-15 hrs so he was familiar with the plane. > >When I got home Sun. I saw a picture of my plane in the local paper on >a >4 lane highway with a headline saying the plane had an engine failure >and was forced to land on the highway. Thankfully no one was hurt and >the plane was not damaged. He actually made a remarkable engine out >landing about a mile from the runway. When I got up with the pilot he >said the engine sputtered and quit and he didn't know why. I figured it >had to be electrical or a fuel problem. I was right. He had run the >plane out of fuel. The wings had to be removed and put on a truck back >to the airport. Unfortunately instead of disconnecting the wires and >tubing, they just cut them. > >He and his passenger were very lucky, and I am pretty lucky too. I'm >reporting this to say be careful who you let fly your plane, and please >make sure you check your fuel before leaving. I will be back up and >flying probably by the end of the week but I'm not sure I'll let anyone >else fly my plane again unless I'm with them. I know stuff happens, but >this was just plain stupidity. >John > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:05 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mine is. Stall speed is 49 MPH... Remember, must be under 1320 lbs gross weight, fixed gear, fixed or ground adjustable prop. Jeff Glasserow Ch601 HDS N6384E > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" > > It depends.... > > I know of at least one HDS that specifically lists his clean stall speed > as "exactly" 51mph.... > > -Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Framil > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Framil" > > Hello, > I was wondering if the 601HDS is sport pilot eligible? > Rick > > > -- > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:01 AM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: Zenith-List: EAA Meeting Last Night --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" Jeff, I missed you last night. I haven't heard from you in an while. I hope all is well, and business is great! Phil ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: N601LG First Flight! From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" It wasn't that Roy, I was hoping you realised your panel would be much happier in MY RV...I'd still adopt it for you...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of royt.or@netzero.com Subject: Zenith-List: RE: N601LG First Flight! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "royt.or@netzero.com" --> Lance. Congratulations. Building was a wonderful adventure. I expect that you will find flying even better. I look forward to sharing the sky with N601LG. Frank - N601RT has CS #8 torx head screws securing the top forward skin. Zenair approved this using nutplates and with the same spacing as the plans documented rivets. ==100 nutplates! You probably did not notice this on my plane because you were concerned about all the extra $tuff I put in the panel, or because N601RT sucks fuel to the firewall through a fuel selector valve, fuel filter and fuel flow transducer from a wing locker tank or either of the leading edge tanks. ;-) Regards, Roy N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR equipped, 465hrs, 566 landings Lance. Congratulations. Building was a wonderful adventure. I expect that you will find flying even better. I look forward to sharing the sky with N601LG. Frank - N601RT has CS #8 torx head screws securing the top forward skin. Zenair approved this using nutplates and with the same spacing as the plans documented rivets. ==100 nutplates! You probably did not notice this on my plane because you were concerned about all the extra $tuff I put in the panel, or because N601RT sucks fuel to the firewall through a fuel selector valve, fuel filter and fuel flow transducer from a wing locker tank or either of the leading edge tanks. ;-) Regards, Roy N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR equipped, 465hrs,566 landings ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:04 AM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Close Call --> Zenith-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com John, you write I don't understand how someone could be so negligent especially with his hours of flying and the education he has. He still doesn't get how serious this mistake was and is more focused on his piloting skills in making such a great emergency landing. My comments The above reminds me of the old story about leading a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. Just because he has education and a few hundred hours does not make him a pilot ~ his actions prove otherwise! It sounds like he is an "airplane driver." Not only did he put your aircraft in danger, but had no concern for his passenger. Somewhere his training was very very inadequate or he is a know it all, in which case I doubt you would have left him your keys. Did he meet your insurance requirements? loaning out our pride & joy is serious~ the last time I did that a tornado touched down at airport where it had landed and totaled aircraft ~38 years ago & I haven't forgotten yet! Sadly I've known a few professional? pilots that were airplane drivers also. Always set a good example and do a complete preflight and use a checklist! There are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but very few old bold pilots. Elbie CFI 43 years, 25,000 hours retired aircarrier pilot and former ATP examiner www.riteangle.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:23 AM PST US From: "Rusty" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rusty" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." --> Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... ----------------------------------------------- Greetings, I just signed on here to check out the XL a little closer. I've built two RV's also, an -8 and a Mazda rotary powered -3B. I just sold the -3B, and I think either an XL or an RV-12 could be in my semi-near future. I love Van's products, and their business practices, but I've also been pretty impressed with what I've seen on the Zenith web page as well. Cheers, Rusty (soaking up XL info) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: EAA Meeting Last Night From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: ...Rriwed to make the meeting last night but didn't end up leaving the office until 8:30. We're pitching Allstate Ins in Chicago tomorrow in the AM so everything is a big push. Last Month it was a pitch to Miller Brewing... I hope some of these come to fruition!. Just got my new canopy from Todd's. Much nicer than the one from Zenith. Got the new step too. As well as a box of A4 and A5 rivets so I can replace the ones I borrowed from you. Hope to have the canopy and step and new EGT/CHT guage done in about 3 weeks. Had a wonderful trip up to Lake Placid and then on down to Coopertown. Plane had no trouble at 7500' to go up over Mt. Marcy. I'm sure we were overgross since we had both baggage lockers full and stuff in the back as well. Even upstate it was HOT. Temps in the 90's.... but thye have long runways for some reason. We did land and take off from one grass strip in Cambridge NY where we visited some friends. No problem there either. Hope to see you soon. Let's fly the Cub! How are you making out with your canopy? Jeff > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" > > Jeff, > > I missed you last night. I haven't heard from you in an while. I hope > all is well, and business is great! > > Phil > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:43 AM PST US From: "john H" Subject: Zenith-List: Close Call Follow Up --> Zenith-List message posted by: "john H" Just to let you all know, I finally got a call from the FAA wanting details about the incident. They are requiring me to write in my log that the pilot reported 6-8 gallons of fuel in the tank at take-off. I have to have an AP check out my site gauge and verify its accuracy. Send a fax of my log book with the verification to them before the plane is allowed to fly again. This means I have to have an AP drain the gas out of the plane and refill it 2-3 times to verify the accuaracy. I know the gauge is accurate because I put 5 gallons in when I got backto the airport and it came just a hair above the 5 gallon mark on the gauge. Once the gas was in, I started the engine and when the fuel got to the cylinders it fired right up and ran fine. Seems like they are blaming the plane for pilot stupidity. They also recommended that I contact Zenith to ask if they have ever encountered a problem with this type of set up before. I probably won't do this but I will ask the list if anyone else has ever encountered this problem. I don't see a problem with this set up and have found it to be extremely accurate since the plane has been flying. I trust this method more than any mechanical gauge. The other recomendation was to stick the tank to verify that the site gauge is accurate which I always do when flying GA aircraft with mechanical gauges and will do from now on with my plane. John ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I hate to be a ZAC basher but if Van's get the RV12 going then you can be sure the holes will be pre-drilled and they will all line up perfectly. They really are a pleasure to put together. The one BIG proviso is...AS long as Van's do not use solid rivets...compared to pop rivets they are a pain in the a**! I know they are thinking pop rivets so they would be almost untouchable, unless ZAC has invested in CNC tooling since I built the HDS. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rusty Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rusty" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." --> Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... ----------------------------------------------- Greetings, I just signed on here to check out the XL a little closer. I've built two RV's also, an -8 and a Mazda rotary powered -3B. I just sold the -3B, and I think either an XL or an RV-12 could be in my semi-near future. I love Van's products, and their business practices, but I've also been pretty impressed with what I've seen on the Zenith web page as well. Cheers, Rusty (soaking up XL info) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:16 AM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne The biggest difference between the RV-12 and the Zenith aircraft (aside from the number flying) is that one uses blind rivets amd one uses conventional ones. -- Craig Rusty <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rusty" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." --> Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... ----------------------------------------------- Greetings, I just signed on here to check out the XL a little closer. I've built two RV's also, an -8 and a Mazda rotary powered -3B. I just sold the -3B, and I think either an XL or an RV-12 could be in my semi-near future. I love Van's products, and their business practices, but I've also been pretty impressed with what I've seen on the Zenith web page as well. Cheers, Rusty (soaking up XL info) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:39 AM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne As a Corvair-XL builder I am betting that Van's will be a lot less open to alternative engines than Zenith. The description from Van's makes it sounds like the design is built around the Rotax engine. Just a guess. -- Craig "Condon,Philip M." wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:35 AM PST US From: "Allen Ricks" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" Howdy all, I've been following Van for quite a while since he's just down the road from me. When I talked to his staff at Arlington, they said the -12 was quite a ways off if they built it at all. First they need to build a concept and fly it a while. Then they need to build a pre-production prototype. Then they need to build a production prototype. I was told they are still not sure if they will really build the -12 for the market, but they said that about the -10 as well. It will have pulled (blind) rivets. The bashed rivets make no sense if you are top end limited. They are installed in the other RV's for drag reasons. This is not a problem in the -12. With Van's designs, removing enough drag will be more of a problem. I expect it will have a really fat wing. I went with the Zenith because I don't want to wait for the -12. That being said, if it were coming out in the next 12 months, I would probably have waited for it. Van is the only guy in the kit industry that is TOTALLY honest in everything he says and does. If he told me it was going to rain frogs, I'd buy stock in amphibian repellant, because you can bet it would. I expect our EAA chapter 105 (Van's home wing) will look at the -12 sometime during the production process, and I'll let you know what I see. Allen -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I hate to be a ZAC basher but if Van's get the RV12 going then you can be sure the holes will be pre-drilled and they will all line up perfectly. They really are a pleasure to put together. The one BIG proviso is...AS long as Van's do not use solid rivets...compared to pop rivets they are a pain in the a**! I know they are thinking pop rivets so they would be almost untouchable, unless ZAC has invested in CNC tooling since I built the HDS. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rusty Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rusty" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." --> Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... ----------------------------------------------- Greetings, I just signed on here to check out the XL a little closer. I've built two RV's also, an -8 and a Mazda rotary powered -3B. I just sold the -3B, and I think either an XL or an RV-12 could be in my semi-near future. I love Van's products, and their business practices, but I've also been pretty impressed with what I've seen on the Zenith web page as well. Cheers, Rusty (soaking up XL info) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:19 AM PST US From: "Samm Munn" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Samm Munn" Since I'm building from scratch, the alignment will be up to me and I intend to be damned precise. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > I hate to be a ZAC basher but if Van's get the RV12 going then you can be > sure the holes will be pre-drilled and they will all line up perfectly. > They really are a pleasure to put together. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:57 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Close Call --> Zenith-List message posted by: Re that hot stick, a piece of eternal wisdom passed on to me many years ago------ "The best pilots never have to prove it." Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair seat frames in, fairleads comin' up DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: john H To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 9:19 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Close Call --> Zenith-List message posted by: "john H" > Hi Frank The FAA was notified. They were more impressed that he made a safe landing and no one was hurt. The only thing they suggested was not to rely on the fuel gauge and always stick the tank.. I have the sight gauge which is real accurate on the ground but does bounce during flight. I've never had a problem running out or low on fuel. I also have checklists which were not used this time. The more I think about what happened, the more pissed off I get. I don't understand how someone could be so negligent especially with his hours of flying and the education he has. He still doesn't get how serious this mistake was and is more focused on his piloting skills in making such a great emergency landing. >From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > >Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com >To: > >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Close Call >Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:27:11 -0700 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" >> > >Damn! > >Thanks for sharing John, I am at a complete loss how such a serious >brain fart could occur...If the FAA finds out about this I bet they will >be having a serious conversation with him. > >Frank > >Do not archive > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john H >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Close Call > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "john H" > > >Hi List > >I have 105hrs on my 601HD. I was going to write a report about how well >and how much fun the plane is to fly, but something happened this >weekend that has kind of shook me up. I went out of town this weekend >for a much needed get away. I left my key so that a friend could fly my >plane while I was gone. He is a young man with several hundred hours of >flying time and a graduate of an Aeronuatical university. We had flown >together for probably >10-15 hrs so he was familiar with the plane. > >When I got home Sun. I saw a picture of my plane in the local paper on a >4 lane highway with a headline saying the plane had an engine failure >and was forced to land on the highway. Thankfully no one was hurt and >the plane was not damaged. He actually made a remarkable engine out >landing about a mile from the runway. When I got up with the pilot he >said the engine sputtered and quit and he didn't know why. I figured it >had to be electrical or a fuel problem. I was right. He had run the >plane out of fuel. The wings had to be removed and put on a truck back >to the airport. Unfortunately instead of disconnecting the wires and >tubing, they just cut them. > >He and his passenger were very lucky, and I am pretty lucky too. I'm >reporting this to say be careful who you let fly your plane, and please >make sure you check your fuel before leaving. I will be back up and >flying probably by the end of the week but I'm not sure I'll let anyone >else fly my plane again unless I'm with them. I know stuff happens, but >this was just plain stupidity. >John > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:04 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Last itme I looked on the Van's site they said they were thinking of pulled rivets...That would be a mistake if they go the solid rivet path. IM (everso) HO...:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne The biggest difference between the RV-12 and the Zenith aircraft (aside from the number flying) is that one uses blind rivets amd one uses conventional ones. -- Craig Rusty <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rusty" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." --> Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... ----------------------------------------------- Greetings, I just signed on here to check out the XL a little closer. I've built two RV's also, an -8 and a Mazda rotary powered -3B. I just sold the -3B, and I think either an XL or an RV-12 could be in my semi-near future. I love Van's products, and their business practices, but I've also been pretty impressed with what I've seen on the Zenith web page as well. Cheers, Rusty (soaking up XL info) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:14 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hmmm....I really have to disagree there. When I was purchasing my RV7 kit they were very open to the Eggenfelner Soob conversion, simply stating that you delete the Van's engine mount and buy the whole Egg kit...No problem. Since then questions have arisen about the effect of additional cooling drag of a water cooled motor in a fast plane like the RV...Oh and they did have a little vapour lock incident on take off too...guess where the fuel pumps were mounted Roy?...:)...Airplane wasn't too badly wrecked fourtunatly. But I digress. Van's simply state their (hard to argue) position that overall a Lycoming is the best choice for an RV...But remember this is a 200mph airplane, very different to a zodiac. It is rumoured that an egg powered RV costs 25mph of cruise speed for the same fuel flow...Once again even though there are a lot of water cooled RV's Van's had not had the opportunity to do a back to back flyoff so they cannot recommend one based on their experience. Note that ZAC was really built around the Rotax and Stratus set up for quite a few years before the Jab came out. Other than that you really are rolling your own or buying a third party FWF kit if you want a different motor. Having been with both companies I see it as the same deal. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne As a Corvair-XL builder I am betting that Van's will be a lot less open to alternative engines than Zenith. The description from Van's makes it sounds like the design is built around the Rotax engine. Just a guess. -- Craig "Condon,Philip M." wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" And like Allen Van's is Just UP the road from me...Sure cuts down on shipping costs using that U haul....:) Frank Corvallis HDS Do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:33 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz RV-12 Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz RV-12 Just a few comments I've noticed on the differences between Van's and Zenith kits: Van's kits are drilled exactly where the holes belong - thanks to the huge computer controlled punch that does the drilling. Zenith hole locations are more vague. You can use Van's holes for alignment of parts, but you will regret doing the same thing with Zenith parts. You must align the parts with squares or other tools to get them in the right places. Van's uses 2024 aluminum alloy while Zenith uses 6061. This has significance when it comes to natural corrosion resistance. The 6061 can be left unprimed on the inner parts according to advice I got from EAA experts - so long as you are not planning on keeping it near salt water or very ugly atmospheres. This might be unwise with 2024. The "Alclad" coating on 2024 means you must be paranoid about scratches if you want any sort of corrosion resistance. Of course there is the issue of blind rivets vs. dimpled solid rivets. Paul XL wings At 08:36 AM 9/20/2005, you wrote: >just signed on here to check out the XL a little closer. I've built two >RV's also, an -8 and a Mazda rotary powered -3B. I just sold the -3B, and I >think either an XL or an RV-12 could be in my semi-near future. I love >Van's products, and their business practices, but I've also been pretty >impressed with what I've seen on the Zenith web page as well. > >Cheers, >Rusty (soaking up XL info) > >Do not archive --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:16 AM PST US From: "B Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" Yup, From reading the latest update, anything remotely heavier would take it out of w&b. This will be a very interesting project to follow. -Bruce J. Sonex Scratch Builder (still interested in Zodiac etc, not to mention RVs) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne As a Corvair-XL builder I am betting that Van's will be a lot less open to alternative engines than Zenith. The description from Van's makes it sounds like the design is built around the Rotax engine. Just a guess. -- Craig "Condon,Philip M." wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... -- -- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Close Call Follow Up From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Firstly you will of course be requiring your friend to pay for the A&P time to get your plane back to the flying condition it was before he borrowed it. I never heared of anyone having a problem with a sight guage on a header tank (I have LE tanks only) I dissagree, I don't think they are blaming your plane at all, Sounds to me like they are building a case against your friend and you have no choice to log exactly as they are requiring you to do. In other words they are going to eliminate your plane as being faulty with the written testimony of the A&P in your logbook and compare that to the statement in your logbook of what the pilot reported. I bet they will come down on him like a ton of bricks when they have assigned the true cause. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john H Subject: Zenith-List: Close Call Follow Up --> Zenith-List message posted by: "john H" Just to let you all know, I finally got a call from the FAA wanting details about the incident. They are requiring me to write in my log that the pilot reported 6-8 gallons of fuel in the tank at take-off. I have to have an AP check out my site gauge and verify its accuracy. Send a fax of my log book with the verification to them before the plane is allowed to fly again. This means I have to have an AP drain the gas out of the plane and refill it 2-3 times to verify the accuaracy. I know the gauge is accurate because I put 5 gallons in when I got backto the airport and it came just a hair above the 5 gallon mark on the gauge. Once the gas was in, I started the engine and when the fuel got to the cylinders it fired right up and ran fine. Seems like they are blaming the plane for pilot stupidity. They also recommended that I contact Zenith to ask if they have ever encountered a problem with this type of set up before. I probably won't do this but I will ask the list if anyone else has ever encountered this problem. I don't see a problem with this set up and have found it to be extremely accurate since the plane has been flying. I trust this method more than any mechanical gauge. The other recomendation was to stick the tank to verify that the site gauge is accurate which I always do when flying GA aircraft with mechanical gauges and will do from now on with my plane. John ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" That's funny, RV builders have what they call "primer wars"...Vans' is adament that every square millimeter of the 6061 they use in the RV MUST be primed, the alclad is optional. Then when I got my RV QB kit it was assembled with no primer at all...it had been alodined or some such. So you have these RV's guys who maticulously spray literally everything in site, adding a lot of weight in the process and certainly quite a bit of time, especially as a lot of them alodine as well! Guess what I did?...Yup, just built it like I did the Zac and rattle can sprayed the mating surfaces and any deep scratches in the alclad. Building a Zodiac first certainly has it advantages...You already have a Pneumatic puller for the heavy steel pop rivets that Vans does occasionally use...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz --> RV-12 Just a few comments I've noticed on the differences between Van's and Zenith kits: Van's kits are drilled exactly where the holes belong - thanks to the huge computer controlled punch that does the drilling. Zenith hole locations are more vague. You can use Van's holes for alignment of parts, but you will regret doing the same thing with Zenith parts. You must align the parts with squares or other tools to get them in the right places. Van's uses 2024 aluminum alloy while Zenith uses 6061. This has significance when it comes to natural corrosion resistance. The 6061 can be left unprimed on the inner parts according to advice I got from EAA experts - so long as you are not planning on keeping it near salt water or very ugly atmospheres. This might be unwise with 2024. The "Alclad" coating on 2024 means you must be paranoid about scratches if you want any sort of corrosion resistance. Of course there is the issue of blind rivets vs. dimpled solid rivets. Paul XL wings At 08:36 AM 9/20/2005, you wrote: >just signed on here to check out the XL a little closer. I've built >two RV's also, an -8 and a Mazda rotary powered -3B. I just sold the >-3B, and I think either an XL or an RV-12 could be in my semi-near >future. I love Van's products, and their business practices, but I've >also been pretty impressed with what I've seen on the Zenith web page as well. > >Cheers, >Rusty (soaking up XL info) > >Do not archive --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:05 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Remember, the airspeed limitations in the FARs refer to calibrated airspeeds not indicated airspeeds. In most aircraft, at speeds near stall, IAS is significantly lower than CAS so you are moving faster than the ASI is telling you. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > Actually mine is 50.999mph...:) > > Infact as far as I can tell from the wiggly ASI needle it really does > stall right around 50mph so yes I would say it is compatible. > Frank ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:40 PM PST US From: Craig Payne Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne Could be. I was basing my guess on this: "The big difference is that the RV-12 will have a "cabin forward" configuration. In other words, the seats will be forward of the main spar instead of on top of it as they are in the other two-seat RVs. This is possible because of the light weight of the 100 hp Rotax 912S four-cylinder, four-stroke, water/air-cooled engine. Center of gravity considerations do require that the engine be mounted close to the firewall." This would seem to rule out heavier engines like the Corvair. Maybe a Subaru would be light enough although William Wynne will argue all day long the the Corvair and the Subaru end up weighing about the same. -- Craig "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hmmm....I really have to disagree there. When I was purchasing my RV7 kit they were very open to the Eggenfelner Soob conversion, simply stating that you delete the Van's engine mount and buy the whole Egg kit...No problem. Since then questions have arisen about the effect of additional cooling drag of a water cooled motor in a fast plane like the RV...Oh and they did have a little vapour lock incident on take off too...guess where the fuel pumps were mounted Roy?...:)...Airplane wasn't too badly wrecked fourtunatly. But I digress. Van's simply state their (hard to argue) position that overall a Lycoming is the best choice for an RV...But remember this is a 200mph airplane, very different to a zodiac. It is rumoured that an egg powered RV costs 25mph of cruise speed for the same fuel flow...Once again even though there are a lot of water cooled RV's Van's had not had the opportunity to do a back to back flyoff so they cannot recommend one based on their experience. Note that ZAC was really built around the Rotax and Stratus set up for quite a few years before the Jab came out. Other than that you really are rolling your own or buying a third party FWF kit if you want a different motor. Having been with both companies I see it as the same deal. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Payne As a Corvair-XL builder I am betting that Van's will be a lot less open to alternative engines than Zenith. The description from Van's makes it sounds like the design is built around the Rotax engine. Just a guess. -- Craig "Condon,Philip M." wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Condon,Philip M." Vans newsletter posted some more data on the RV-12 . Anyone looking at a Zenith might study the RV-12. Admittedly biased, since I built 2 RV's in the past...... ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:52 PM PST US From: "Rick Framil" Subject: Zenith-List: engine/601 combo and insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Framil" What engine/601 combinations have had the best results with obtaining insurance or at least decent insurance rates? Rick ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:00 PM PST US From: "Allen Ricks" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: engine/601 combo and insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Allen Ricks" I spoke to an agent briefly at Arlington about this. He stated the insurers have the most experience with the Rotax 912 series, and it is used in certified aircraft, so it's the easiest. He didn't think the Jabiru was much problem as there are a bunch of those flying, and it is a purpose built engine with a somewhat "standard" installation. He stated that insurers get nervous with any auto conversion for two reasons. One is the lack of experience with most of them, and the other was auto conversion don't generally come with a "standard" installation, so there are more opportunities to make mistakes. He was unwilling to generalize in any way about premiums because so much of the premium is based on pilot experience, plane design, blah, blah, blah. After talking to him I think I will go with either the Rotax or Jabiru because I think that you may save back the price difference between the "name" brands and the conversion if you want hull insurance on your plane. As experience with sorting the Jabiru grows, I'm leaning more that direction. It appears that the excessive fuel flow problems have been solved, and many of the smaller issues I have seen people complaining about seem to be being dealt with by the manufacturer. Allen -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rick Framil Subject: Zenith-List: engine/601 combo and insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Framil" What engine/601 combinations have had the best results with obtaining insurance or at least decent insurance rates? Rick ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:08 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N601LG First Flight! From: "Lance Gingell" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" Thanks All! So, to the questions: - Screws in the skin: These had to be the same spacing has the rivets, since that was really the only thing I could do as the firewall and panel were already fluted. I ended up with about 75 #8/32 screws going into nutplates. I borrowed a pneumatic dimpler from an RV builder (so you'll be OK there Frank!). I didn't ask ZAC. This is structural, but WAY stronger than rivets with that many screws. Probably adds some weight. I pondered on this mod but I don't regret it one bit. DO IT! I had to cut the 'ears' off the top skin and make seperate ones, but this was just as well, since I bent them several times getting the hinge to fit right (ugh). - Laptop: Yep, you guessed it - gathering EIS data. I wired a DB9 to the EIS serial out + ground. I took the laptop on most ground tests, and the test flights. Its *great* to be able to look at the data in the evening, in a chair on the ground with a cool beer to aid digestion :-) I asked GRT for the EISLog utility to run on the laptop - which they send out with a serial port connection instruction sheet too. I may write myself some graphical software to display this real-time in the air. - Trim: I'm tiny. ~120lbs. I was near forward CG. I couldn't trim hands off, since I (just) ran out of nose up trim. Putting the flaps in made it worse of course. When I landed from the first flight, I felt like popeye. So....before going full fuel, I put "Pierre, the plaster of paris" bag in the front of the baggage shelf behind the right seat. With full fuel I could trim hands off. Nice! Once the flaps started in, back to holding stick nose up. I have a baggage carpet to go in yet, so I'm going to see how that does. I think the larger (wider) trim tab is a must. I'll probably retro-fit it in the next week or so. If only I could get fat, I wouldn't need this. Shame. - Numbers: For the first flight, I let the airplane fly itself off by holding a tiny bit of back stick after 60kts. Elec Fuel pump was on the whole flight too. I climed at 80kts to 1000AGL, then 90, then 100. Pulled power (to cool CHT's which touched 340 for a second). I circled to 5000ft. Did some slow flight. 70kts fine. At 60kts my right wing started dropping although I had no oil-can or mush. I was trying a very shallow turn to test musy controls, so that was obviously it. More testing there to do yet. I think my airspeed maybe a couple of knots high. I got 2800RPM out of the Jabiru. 116 kts on the first flight, 120kts on the second. I've not tried for speed yet (until I fix the trim). Flying the pattern at ~80kts. Final 80 then 70, "2 seconds" worth of flaps (out of 7.5 seconds of travel which is about 24 degrees). Didn't want more in case of a go around. Long slow flare out from 70 to 60 to below - easy to 'feel' the elevator/nose up in the landing. Didn't need any more flaps (why the heck do we need 'em!?). Squeek. Phew! That was my story and I'm sticking to it! Its wierd to be out of building mode. *What* a feeling. Builders: keep up the building - it is SOOOO worth it. Cheers, ..lance http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp N601LG 2.7 hours ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:25 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N601LG First Flight! From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Cool! Rather than flying so close to the forward limit (actually so do I but it allows me to load up and go, never done a W&B calc since I finished building) how about moving the battery aft if you havent' done so already?..You might pick up a bit of speed as well.. Just a thought. Frank...and I'll probably never get around to substituting the rivets for screws...But the next owner could..:) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lance Gingell Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N601LG First Flight! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" --> - Numbers: For the first flight, I let the airplane fly itself off by holding a tiny bit of back stick after 60kts. Elec Fuel pump was on the whole flight too. I climed at 80kts to 1000AGL, then 90, then 100. Pulled power (to cool CHT's which touched 340 for a second). I circled to 5000ft. Did some slow flight. 70kts fine. At 60kts my right wing started dropping although I had no oil-can or mush. I was trying a very shallow turn to test musy controls, so that was obviously it. More testing there to do yet. I think my airspeed maybe a couple of knots high. I got 2800RPM out of the Jabiru. 116 kts on the first flight, 120kts on the second. I've not tried for speed yet (until I fix the trim). Flying the pattern at ~80kts. Final 80 then 70, "2 seconds" worth of flaps (out of 7.5 seconds of travel which is about 24 degrees). Didn't want more in case of a go around. Long slow flare out from 70 to 60 to below - easy to 'feel' the elevator/nose up in the landing. Didn't need any more flaps (why the heck do we need 'em!?). Squeek. Phew! That was my story and I'm sticking to it! Its wierd to be out of building mode. *What* a feeling. Builders: keep up the building - it is SOOOO worth it. Cheers, ..lance http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp N601LG 2.7 hours ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:47 PM PST US From: Dave Gardea Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N601LG First Flight! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dave Gardea Lance, Thanks for your response. Your words are both encouraging and motivating. I am only 3 months into building my 601XL and certainly have a long way to go, but shared experiences like yours helps me keep that final goal in focus. Regards, Dave Gardea 601XL tail done, wings underway, disassembling Corvair core http://dgardea.mybesthost.com do not archive On 9/20/05, Lance Gingell wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" < > lgingell@matrix-logic.com> > > Thanks All! > > So, to the questions: > ............. > Its wierd to be out of building mode. *What* a feeling. Builders: keep > up the building - it is SOOOO worth it. > > Cheers, > ..lance > http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp > N601LG 2.7 hours > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:26 PM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 HDS with Jabiru 2200 performance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" ----- Original Message ----- From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 HDS with Jabiru 2200 performance I did it again!! do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:19 PM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? All- Didn't someone in Colorado just have a posting to sell an HDS that was SP eligible because it had vortex generators? I'd like to see some more information on the VGs, because that sounds more like the type of verifiable engineering solution the FAA would buy into. Bill 601HDS > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:42 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Go to www.landshorter.com Check out their VG sets. Ed Moody II > > From: "William J. Naumuk" > Date: 2005/09/20 Tue PM 06:25:59 EDT > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > > > All- > Didn't someone in Colorado just have a posting to sell an HDS that was > SP eligible because it had vortex generators? I'd like to see some more > information on the VGs, because that sounds more like the type of > verifiable engineering solution the FAA would buy into. > Bill > 601HDS > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:37 PM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samm Munn" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Vans has mere details on the RV-12 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Samm Munn" > > Since I'm building from scratch, the alignment will be up to me and I intend > to be damned precise. Sam- Considering I had to rebuild my outboard wings by hand after a disasterous beginning, I probably would have been just as far ahead building the whole plane from scratch. I think you're better off because you're intimately familiar with every line and dimension on the drawings, something you would expect wasn't necessary when building from a kit. With a few exceptions, the drawings are top notch- the builder's manual is the problem. Unfortunately, being "Damned Precise" isn't good enough, unless you're not human. I GUARANTEE you you'll still have a brain-fart and kink a skin, run an assembly into a doorknob, or come up with an extra hole that you swear was drilled by aliens. Look at Larry Mac's plane. From the pictures on his website, it's flawless, yet when I recently asked when he was going to get around to painting it, he said "I'm still trying to come up with a color scheme that will hide all the garfs and wrinkles." The way I'm going, I think I'll paint mine camo. You know, like those 50 year old Swiss Cheese Jeeps people turn into woods whoopies. Incidentally, I've seen some butt-ugly rivet lines on RVs, and a gorgeous Zenith. I would have loved to see matched hole drilling in my kit, but it only works when you hit the hole! Bill do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:38 PM PST US From: "R. Saarinen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "R. Saarinen" Every airplane is different of course but here's one of my testimonials for the HDS: "My only recommendation would be to forget the temporary installation- they work. The clean airplane was stalling at 48 , your VGs bring it down to 41.5. I very easily qualify for sport pilot category now. I was very pleased with the increased stability in the landing pattern. I've done a lot of stall work, I was a test pilot for Continental with the 737s and also a test pilot for the military before that." Stan Challgren, Zenith 601HDS, Evergreen, CO This is pretty standard, most folks see about 10%-15% reduction in stall speed and the HDS is a good candidate. Let me know if you would like to try some, thanks Ron. Joa www.landshorter.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > > > All- > Didn't someone in Colorado just have a posting to sell an HDS that was > SP eligible because it had vortex generators? I'd like to see some more > information on the VGs, because that sounds more like the type of > verifiable engineering solution the FAA would buy into. > Bill > 601HDS >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:34 PM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: engine/601 combo and insurance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" Rick- The only combo that I have heard that has problems is the Zenith-Corvair that is converted by anyone other than WW. Buy one that he has personally converted and it seems that there is no problem. This should change in time with more conversions coming on line. Al Young 601XL- Jab 3300 Do not archive ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:56 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Close Call Follow Up --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower I was thinking that also, They need all the good cards to show their hand... Yes, at least he has to pay for the AP bills, is a bargain for him, As we say here. "The best way to learn is when the punishment goes all the way to the wallet... " I dont know him, but sure I will like him to "learn and survive". Could become a great Pilot. Saludos Gary Gower. "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Firstly you will of course be requiring your friend to pay for the A&P time to get your plane back to the flying condition it was before he borrowed it. I never heared of anyone having a problem with a sight guage on a header tank (I have LE tanks only) I dissagree, I don't think they are blaming your plane at all, Sounds to me like they are building a case against your friend and you have no choice to log exactly as they are requiring you to do. In other words they are going to eliminate your plane as being faulty with the written testimony of the A&P in your logbook and compare that to the statement in your logbook of what the pilot reported. I bet they will come down on him like a ton of bricks when they have assigned the true cause. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john H Subject: Zenith-List: Close Call Follow Up --> Zenith-List message posted by: "john H" Just to let you all know, I finally got a call from the FAA wanting details about the incident. They are requiring me to write in my log that the pilot reported 6-8 gallons of fuel in the tank at take-off. I have to have an AP check out my site gauge and verify its accuracy. Send a fax of my log book with the verification to them before the plane is allowed to fly again. This means I have to have an AP drain the gas out of the plane and refill it 2-3 times to verify the accuaracy. I know the gauge is accurate because I put 5 gallons in when I got backto the airport and it came just a hair above the 5 gallon mark on the gauge. Once the gas was in, I started the engine and when the fuel got to the cylinders it fired right up and ran fine. Seems like they are blaming the plane for pilot stupidity. They also recommended that I contact Zenith to ask if they have ever encountered a problem with this type of set up before. I probably won't do this but I will ask the list if anyone else has ever encountered this problem. I don't see a problem with this set up and have found it to be extremely accurate since the plane has been flying. I trust this method more than any mechanical gauge. The other recomendation was to stick the tank to verify that the site gauge is accurate which I always do when flying GA aircraft with mechanical gauges and will do from now on with my plane. John ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:06 PM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N601LG First Flight! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" Lance- Thanks for the info on your flight. One last question- Did you leave any power in on final after reaching the threshold? The reason I am so interested is that last May, I dove my XL -3300 into the runway by cutting power at the threshold, like I was trying to land a 172. I am still re-building. In order to maintain the 80 indicated, how much power (RPM) did you have until the flair.? Sorry for all the questions, but I have spent the summer wondering why I busted up a darn nice airplane. Regards, Al Young Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:19 PM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > Go to > > www.landshorter.com > > Check out their VG sets. > > Ed Moody II Thanks, Ed. Will do. Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:53 PM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" Thanks, guys. I'm a ways away from the installation stage, but this makes me feel A LOT better. Adding the site to my address book now. I think you ought to archive this one! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Saarinen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "R. Saarinen" > > Every airplane is different of course but here's one of my testimonials for > the HDS: > > "My only recommendation would be to forget the temporary installation- they > work. The clean airplane was stalling at 48 , your VGs bring it down > to 41.5. I very easily qualify for sport pilot category now. I was very > pleased with the increased stability in the landing pattern. I've done a lot > of stall work, I was a test pilot for Continental with the 737s and also a > test pilot for the military before that." Stan Challgren, Zenith 601HDS, > Evergreen, CO > > This is pretty standard, most folks see about 10%-15% reduction in stall > speed and the HDS is a good candidate. > > Let me know if you would like to try some, thanks Ron. > > Joa > www.landshorter.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William J. Naumuk" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > > > > > > All- > > Didn't someone in Colorado just have a posting to sell an HDS that was > > SP eligible because it had vortex generators? I'd like to see some more > > information on the VGs, because that sounds more like the type of > > verifiable engineering solution the FAA would buy into. > > Bill > > 601HDS > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:27 PM PST US From: Craig Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 2 piece canopy , 601 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Craig Rick, I saw that plane on Zenith's site some time ago and thought about doing a sliding canopy as well. The main concern I had was that the rails would be somewhat intrusive where room was needed the most. I designed a cantilever hinge instead. The canopy is a custom job from http://www.toddscanopies.com/ and is a little longer with a couple inches additional headroom. It can be seen on his site under 'modified ch601'. It would work with the stock hardware but I also wanted a fixed windshield. I have completed the hinge installation and am quite happy with how it works. I am putting the finishing touches on the trim but have some pictures of the system I can e-mail you if you are interested. The pictures (on Todd's site) show the windshield brace installed before I cut the canopy. Craig Spainhower N601XS, 601xl 0-235, 90% complete, 90% left Last year, I had the pleasure of flying in a 601XL with a 2 piece canopy that was for sale. A year later, I would have to assume that it was sold. You may be able to track down the current owner provided the tail number did not change. I liked the safety factor of a fixed wind screen, should the canopy depart. It also made for easy entry and exit. The craftsmanship was very good and the design was cleverly done. I chose not to buy it, in part, because of what appeared to be the additional weight added by the canopy and what I perceived to be a need to add additional stiffening to the frame, thus adding more weight. I took some pictures with my cell phone camera and I have posted them on my community website. They are not very good but it will give you a feel for how one fellow did it. The link is: http://www.eaglesnestestates.org/601xl-jm/ Rick: I have been planning this same idea for some time now. When I get my engine installed and running I plan to incorporate a combination forward tilt / sliding canopy. Stay tuned to www.cooknwithgas.com for details. Scott Laughlin 601XL / Corvair Wiring panel and working on engine. Rick Tedford wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Tedford" Hello Listers : Has anybody seen or know of a 2 pce. canopy design for the 601 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:21 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Lets see now....I'm on a short final with a Lear jet behind me & I'm to calculate CAS as I cross over the threshold. NOPE, from APV (Apple Valley 3,400) or Big Bear (7,000+) I'll use indicated, even thou I can tell that my ground speed is faster as Big Bear. KABONG ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net > > Remember, the airspeed limitations in the FARs refer to calibrated > airspeeds not indicated airspeeds. In most aircraft, at speeds near stall, > IAS is significantly lower than CAS so you are moving faster than the ASI > is telling you. > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" >> >> >> Actually mine is 50.999mph...:) >> >> Infact as far as I can tell from the wiggly ASI needle it really does >> stall right around 50mph so yes I would say it is compatible. >> Frank > > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:00 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N601LG First Flight! --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Lance, sounds like a couple really great flights. Were those mph or knt speed readings ? You mentioned about flaps, when everything slows down a bit and you manage to get all the flap out (and I am guessing I have even though I have always been too busy just then to look) the ground effect really takes effect and authority and gently sets her down. I hope you are correct on the "no building, just flying" part cause I am still spending hours and hours tweaking and retrofitting, etc. Course I am flying some as well, Hope to hear more real soon, Bill of Georgia, N505WP, 601XL-3300 w/DC ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:21 PM PST US From: "Darin McLEAN" Subject: Zenith-List: HD or HDS suitability for Jabiru 2200 85hp --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Darin McLEAN" Hi everyone, Just wanted to run a quick concensus from people with experience in flying HD and HDS aircraft with 80hp to gain some real practical figures. I intend to build a Zodiac with a Jabiru 2200 engine (85hp) with standard senheiser prop. 1. Would you think the HD is more suitable than the HDS for the Jabiru 85hp? 2. Would there be much difference in cruise speed between the two? 3. What would you imagine the 75% cruise speed to be for the HD versus HDS both with wheel pants? 4. Would the climb on the HDS be reasonable (say >600-700fpm)? 5. Please add any additional comments you might have about choosing the right plane for this engine. 6. I am somehow hoping for a cruise in the 90kts area at the least. You input would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Darin McLEAN (just starting the CH601 rudder kit) www.recreationalflying.net -- ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:02 PM PST US From: "Jeff Davidson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Davidson" "My only recommendation would be to forget the temporary installation- they work. The clean airplane was stalling at 48 , your VGs bring it down to 41.5. I very easily qualify for sport pilot category now. I was very pleased with the increased stability in the landing pattern. I've done a lot of stall work, I was a test pilot for Continental with the 737s and also a test pilot for the military before that." Does anyone else remember reading that the aircraft must have always been in compliance with LSA criteria since the original Airworthiness Certificate was issued? My understanding was that you could not modify an existing aircraft with an airworthiness certificate that didn't meet the criteria to make it compliant. Jeff Davidson ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin Ground speed is higher at Big Bear because true airspeed is higher at the higher altitude but neither TAS nor ground speed have anything to do with stall speed. The difference between CAS and IAS has nothing to do with altitude, it has everything to do with the angle of attack. Since the pitot tube is generally fixed to the wing, as the angle of attack of the wing changes, the angle of the pitot tube relative to the airstream changes. The greater the angle the pitot tube makes with the airstream, the less accurate it gets, and the worst accuracy occurs at the high angle of attack near stall. For a given weight and CG, an airplane will stall at about the same CAS (and IAS) regardless of altitude. Of course you will fly the the plane according to IAS because that's what you have. When you're flying the airplane you generally don't care about CAS. My point was that the FAA doesn't care what the stall speed is in IAS, they want the stall speed in CAS which will be greater than indicated because at low airspeeds (high angle of attack) the pitot tube will not be pointed directly into the airstream. If your airplane stalls at an indicated airspeed of 45 knots, it probably won't qualify for LSA because for most aircraft, the CAS will be several knots faster. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive. on 9/20/05 9:04 PM, JOHN STARN at jhstarn@verizon.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" > > Lets see now....I'm on a short final with a Lear jet behind me & I'm to > calculate CAS as I cross over the threshold. NOPE, from APV (Apple Valley > 3,400) or Big Bear (7,000+) I'll use indicated, even thou I can tell that my > ground speed is faster as Big Bear. KABONG > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601HDS sport pilot eligible?? > > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net >> >> Remember, the airspeed limitations in the FARs refer to calibrated >> airspeeds not indicated airspeeds. In most aircraft, at speeds near stall, >> IAS is significantly lower than CAS so you are moving faster than the ASI >> is telling you. >> >> >>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" >>> >>> >>> Actually mine is 50.999mph...:) >>> >>> Infact as far as I can tell from the wiggly ASI needle it really does >>> stall right around 50mph so yes I would say it is compatible. >>> Frank >> >> >> > > > > > >