Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:26 AM - HDS and HD wing swap (601corvair)
2. 06:52 AM - Canadian Planes (Zodie Rocket)
3. 08:11 AM - Re: Canadian Planes (William J. Naumuk)
4. 08:27 AM - Three big SP questions (William J. Naumuk)
5. 09:17 AM - Re: Canadian Planes (Zodie Rocket)
6. 09:39 AM - Re: Three big SP questions (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
7. 09:39 AM - Re: Three big SP questions (Larry McFarland)
8. 10:01 AM - Re: Canadian Planes (William J. Naumuk)
9. 10:16 AM - Re: Canadian Planes (James Ferris)
10. 10:31 AM - Re: Three big SP questions (Paul Mulwitz)
11. 12:00 PM - Re: Three big SP questions (David Alberti)
12. 03:21 PM - Re: Three big SP questions (B Johnson)
13. 08:29 PM - Re: 912 OIL thermostat (NYTerminat@AOL.COM)
14. 08:54 PM - Re: Source for inspection plates (NYTerminat@aol.com)
15. 08:57 PM - Engine Monitoring (NYTerminat@aol.com)
16. 11:29 PM - Re: Engine Monitoring (Zodie Rocket)
Message 1
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| Subject: | HDS and HD wing swap |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: 601corvair <airvair601@yahoo.com>
I posted this several months ago and would still like to do this. There have been
months of discussion about the HDS and the sport pilot rule. The case can
be made to put VGs on these wings and get them compliant ( I know it is arguable
and show be done in the sting period. So if you are interested let me know
and we can exchange photos etc.
I would like to trade set of never flown HDS wings for a set of HD. Ive come to
he conclusion the quicker 601 exceeds the design limits of this pilot. If you
put vortex generators on the wings you could have one of the sleekest high
performance experimental light sport aircraft around. The wings are polished
aluminum with primer on all the internal riveted surfaces. They were built with
the Heintz aileron attachments, baggage compartments, dual leading edge tanks
( 2 x 10 gal) electric aileron trim, landing lights and strobe / Nav lights
all from zenith. They tanks have a capacitance fuel system from Skysport and
were fully wrapped with Buna cork. $6489.00 has been spent on the wings.
(Photos available off list.). If you have a set of comparable HD wings built,
partially built, or still in the box, lets talk and work on the details.
phill
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Hi Folks, I have been working on our website www.can-zacaviation.com and
I would like to Post a Canadian Owned and flying section. SO if you're
finished and flying any Zenith product in Canada please send me a
picture with a small bio, or just a picture with a first name if you
like. I do not wish to upset our American Friends and will be happy to
post your planes on www.ch601.org and www.ch701.com so send them as
well. But as the Canadian Distributor of Zenith Aircraft I would like to
celebrate the sometimes bashful, and often times quiet Canadians.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
--
9/23/2005
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Canadian Planes |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Subject: Zenith-List: Canadian Planes
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>
I do not wish to upset our American Friends
Mark-
Offend the Americans? I've seen posts from Mexicans, Canadians,
Americans, Poles, Czechs, etc. on the site.
I always thought a pilot was a pilot.
Bill
>
>
> --
> 9/23/2005
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Three big SP questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
All-
I'm not going to open up a can of worms, I'm going to open up a whole crate
of them! Let's divide and conquer- I'm going to shoot off the question about
cross registering to EAA Technical- everyone else, feel free to step in.
1. If you bought an HDS kit or plans, are you allowed to build either/or/both
the HD and HDS outboard wings?
2. Can you register one airframe in both the Experimental and Sport Pilot categories,
depending on the outboard wings you use?
3. Say you built the HDS wings. It seems some projects will qualify for Sport
Pilot with no further modification, and some won't, but you won't know until
you perform the flight tests. Do you have to declare up front what category
you're applying for? If you don't, you can hold off adding VGs until you find
out whether the stock airframe you built will qualify.
Bill
do not archive
(We probably want to keep the answers, though)
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
I agree Bill, a pilot is a pilot, and a builder is strange and a plans
builder is nuts (I fit the latter category) but it was my intention to
try and not offend anyone with my request. In serving Can-Zac's new
customers I typically get several questions repeatedly, this indicates a
need for information that should be on the website. I will never be able
to answer all the questions online, but I will always do my best to
provide what my customers are asking for. In this case oftentimes I get
the question, are there any completed planes flying in Canada? We all
know the answer on this list but to someone new this is a very important
question. For a person who doesn't even know the difference between a
701 and a Cessna it is huge to have everything available for them to
learn.
Your right Bill there is a world of other countries out there and Zenith
is there to serve them all either through it's own websites or through
it's distributors. I will also be proud to post any picture of a flying
Zenith product on our Builders Portal Websites. But for someone who
wants to visit the Canadian Distributor website Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. I
would like to be able to show the Canadian homebuilt planes that they
have inquired about, in our Photo Gallery. I'm only trying to fill a
request from people I have talked with. Am I being unreasonable? Or
politically incorrect?
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Subject: Zenith-List: Canadian Planes
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket"
<zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>
I do not wish to upset our American Friends
Mark-
Offend the Americans? I've seen posts from Mexicans, Canadians,
Americans, Poles, Czechs, etc. on the site.
I always thought a pilot was a pilot.
Bill
>
>
> --
> 9/23/2005
>
>
--
9/23/2005
--
9/23/2005
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Three big SP questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
If you are building an HD/ HDS you will have to register it as an experimental
amateur built aircraft. It can not be registered as a light sport aircraft. The
only way you can register an home built airplane as an LSA is if was sold by
the kit manufacturer as an ELSA kit. Before a manufacturer can sell an ELSA kit,
they first have to produce a prototype that conforms to the LSA consensus
standards. This is not going to happen to the HD/ HDS series, it may happen with
the XL. However, as long as the airplane meets the limitations of the LSA rule,
it can be flown under the LSA rules by a sport pilot no matter what category
the airplane is registered under. A sport pilot can fly an experimental or
a standard category or an LSA category airplane as long as the airplane meets
the limitations of the LSA rule and has been in compliance with those rules
since its original certification.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
>
> All-
> I'm not going to open up a can of worms, I'm going to open up a whole crate
> of them! Let's divide and conquer- I'm going to shoot off the question about
> cross registering to EAA Technical- everyone else, feel free to step in.
> 1. If you bought an HDS kit or plans, are you allowed to build
> either/or/both the HD and HDS outboard wings?
> 2. Can you register one airframe in both the Experimental and Sport Pilot
> categories, depending on the outboard wings you use?
> 3. Say you built the HDS wings. It seems some projects will qualify for
> Sport Pilot with no further modification, and some won't, but you won't know
> until you perform the flight tests. Do you have to declare up front what
> category you're applying for? If you don't, you can hold off adding VGs until
> you find out whether the stock airframe you built will qualify.
> Bill
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Three big SP questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Bill,
You're building an "experimental" and the qualification for Light Sport
Aircraft depends upon what criteria your plane meets when you fill out
the performance data in your Pilots Operating Handbook Some will
qualify because they have met all the criteria and some will not. VGs
do not qualify what is not originally a plans variable. You are
entitled to make both and fly either set of wings, but your POH should
be written in a way that accounts for the differences. At least you
could be sure one of the variations should qualify for LSA. Actually,
both should qualify if you keep them light. Actually, if I had to start
over with 20-20 hindsight, and having flown both HD and HDS, I'd have
built the HD wings at 24 feet and met all the criteria. The HD wings
generate a huge amount of lift that is equalled by no other option.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
William J. Naumuk wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
>
>All-
> I'm not going to open up a can of worms, I'm going to open up a whole crate
of them! Let's divide and conquer- I'm going to shoot off the question about
cross registering to EAA Technical- everyone else, feel free to step in.
> 1. If you bought an HDS kit or plans, are you allowed to build either/or/both
the HD and HDS outboard wings?
> 2. Can you register one airframe in both the Experimental and Sport Pilot
categories, depending on the outboard wings you use?
> 3. Say you built the HDS wings. It seems some projects will qualify for Sport
Pilot with no further modification, and some won't, but you won't know until
you perform the flight tests. Do you have to declare up front what category
you're applying for? If you don't, you can hold off adding VGs until you find
out whether the stock airframe you built will qualify.
> Bill
> do not archive
> (We probably want to keep the answers, though)
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Canadian Planes |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
Mark-
I think it's a non-issue!
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canadian Planes
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>
> I agree Bill, a pilot is a pilot, and a builder is strange and a plans
> builder is nuts (I fit the latter category) but it was my intention to
> try and not offend anyone with my request. In serving Can-Zac's new
> customers I typically get several questions repeatedly, this indicates a
> need for information that should be on the website. I will never be able
> to answer all the questions online, but I will always do my best to
> provide what my customers are asking for. In this case oftentimes I get
> the question, are there any completed planes flying in Canada? We all
> know the answer on this list but to someone new this is a very important
> question. For a person who doesn't even know the difference between a
> 701 and a Cessna it is huge to have everything available for them to
> learn.
>
> Your right Bill there is a world of other countries out there and Zenith
> is there to serve them all either through it's own websites or through
> it's distributors. I will also be proud to post any picture of a flying
> Zenith product on our Builders Portal Websites. But for someone who
> wants to visit the Canadian Distributor website Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. I
> would like to be able to show the Canadian homebuilt planes that they
> have inquired about, in our Photo Gallery. I'm only trying to fill a
> request from people I have talked with. Am I being unreasonable? Or
> politically incorrect?
>
>
> Mark Townsend
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
> president@can-zacaviation.com
> www.can-zacaviation.com
>
> do not archive
> -----Original Message-----
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>; <701builders@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Canadian Planes
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket"
> <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
> >
> I do not wish to upset our American Friends
>
> Mark-
> Offend the Americans? I've seen posts from Mexicans, Canadians,
> Americans, Poles, Czechs, etc. on the site.
> I always thought a pilot was a pilot.
> Bill
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > 9/23/2005
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> 9/23/2005
>
>
> --
> 9/23/2005
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: James Ferris <mijniljj@yahoo.com>
I am an American and I think it would be a great idea
if you would show all those photos on you website.
Thanks
Jim
--- Zodie Rocket <zodierocket@hsfx.ca> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket"
> <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>
> I agree Bill, a pilot is a pilot, and a builder is
> strange and a plans
> builder is nuts (I fit the latter category) but it
> was my intention to
> try and not offend anyone with my request. In
> serving Can-Zac's new
> customers I typically get several questions
> repeatedly, this indicates a
> need for information that should be on the website.
> I will never be able
> to answer all the questions online, but I will
> always do my best to
> provide what my customers are asking for. In this
> case oftentimes I get
> the question, are there any completed planes flying
> in Canada? We all
> know the answer on this list but to someone new this
> is a very important
> question. For a person who doesn't even know the
> difference between a
> 701 and a Cessna it is huge to have everything
> available for them to
> learn.
>
> Your right Bill there is a world of other countries
> out there and Zenith
> is there to serve them all either through it's own
> websites or through
> it's distributors. I will also be proud to post any
> picture of a flying
> Zenith product on our Builders Portal Websites. But
> for someone who
> wants to visit the Canadian Distributor website
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. I
> would like to be able to show the Canadian homebuilt
> planes that they
> have inquired about, in our Photo Gallery. I'm only
> trying to fill a
> request from people I have talked with. Am I being
> unreasonable? Or
> politically incorrect?
>
>
> Mark Townsend
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
> president@can-zacaviation.com
> www.can-zacaviation.com
>
> do not archive
> -----Original Message-----
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>;
> <701builders@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Canadian Planes
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket"
> <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
> >
> I do not wish to upset our American Friends
>
> Mark-
> Offend the Americans? I've seen posts from
> Mexicans, Canadians,
> Americans, Poles, Czechs, etc. on the site.
> I always thought a pilot was a pilot.
>
> Bill
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > 9/23/2005
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> 9/23/2005
>
>
> --
> 9/23/2005
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Three big SP questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Bill,
There seems to be some confusion here about the difference between
airman certificates and airworthiness certificates. Let me give some
personal views of these things (which may include some memory
failures on my part).
Sport Pilot is an airman certificate. It is the new one made by the
latest rule from the government. Briefly it allows recreational
flying of Light Sport Aircraft or aircraft with other airworthiness
certificates that meet the requirements for Light Sport
Aircraft. The most obvious limitations of LSA are single engine,
fixed or ground adjustable prop, 2 seats max., max gross weight 1320
lbs, Vs (clean stall speed) 45 kts or less, max continuous cruise
speed at sea level "Lance Gingell" <lgingell@matrix-logic.com>120
kts, no pressurized cabins, no turbines.
Perhaps the biggest new feature of the Sport Pilot license it is can
be exercised without an FAA medical certificate. A state automobile
driver's license is sufficient to establish medical qualification for
this level of pilot privilege.
Sport Pilots are limited to maximum altitude 10,000 MSL, VFR, Day
flights. They get limited training so they must get additional
endorsements for certain types of operations like entry into high
traffic airport areas (and controlled airports?). There are other
limitations that I never bothered to learn since I already have a
private pilot license.
The new rule also contains a provision that allows pilots with other
classes of airman certificate to operate with pretty much the same
privileges as a Sport Pilot if they possess a state driver's
license. I say pretty much because they don't suffer from the need
for endorsements for operations into high density airspace since they
already have skills demonstrated in this sort of operation. This
allows pilots who don't have a current medical certificate to fly
without obtaining a new medical - something which should revitalize
sport aviation due to the large increase of eligible pilots.
Now, on to your specific questions.
1. I have no clue about HD/HDS building issues.
2. You can't register an airframe in the Sport Pilot category - this
is apples and oranges.
3. The only really questionable issues relating to LSA limits
implicit in this question are the airspeeds for Vs and max continuous
power cruise. (I may get in trouble for the following, but life is
full of risk.) The simple truth IMHO is the FAA is not in a position
to question the exact speeds for a given airplane. If you build an
Experimental - Amateur Built airplane then you get to specify the
stall speed and cruise speed as part of the process of writing your
documentation - in particular the Pilot's Operating Handbook. If you
POH says the stall and cruise speeds are suitable for LSA performance
then the plane qualifies. If it happens that the "REAL" stall speed
or cruise speed is a little different from what is documented, then
who will know?
I think this is a bigger issue regarding cruise speed than stall
speed. I have heard reports of HDS planes that cruise over 150
mph. Does that mean they can't be flown by Sport Pilots or others
who accept the SP limits? I say there is great question about this
when you factor in the "Continuous Power" and sea level issues in
this LSA specification.
For my money, the most important issues relate to safety rather than
exact performance specifications. If your pilot skills are not up to
the level needed for your plane then you should get sufficient
instruction and practice to reach the required level. All else is
bureaucratic nonsense.
Paul
XL wings
At 08:29 AM 9/24/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
>
>All-
> I'm not going to open up a can of worms, I'm going to open up a
> whole crate of them! Let's divide and conquer- I'm going to shoot
> off the question about cross registering to EAA Technical- everyone
> else, feel free to step in.
> 1. If you bought an HDS kit or plans, are you allowed to build
> either/or/both the HD and HDS outboard wings?
> 2. Can you register one airframe in both the Experimental and
> Sport Pilot categories, depending on the outboard wings you use?
> 3. Say you built the HDS wings. It seems some projects will
> qualify for Sport Pilot with no further modification, and some
> won't, but you won't know until you perform the flight tests. Do
> you have to declare up front what category you're applying for? If
> you don't, you can hold off adding VGs until you find out whether
> the stock airframe you built will qualify.
> Bill
> do not archive
> (We probably want to keep the answers, though)
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Three big SP questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" <daberti@sbcglobal.net>
Why don't you guys just take the FAA's word for what is already eligible as
a plane that can be flown by a pilot operating under "sport pilot"
certificate! The FAA says Zenith 601...Do you fly a Zenith 601? Done Deal!
Dave Zenith 601
-----Original Message-----
All-
I'm not going to open up a can of worms, I'm going to open up a whole
crate of them! Let's divide and conquer- I'm going to shoot off the question
about cross registering to EAA Technical- everyone else, feel free to step
in.
1. If you bought an HDS kit or plans, are you allowed to build
either/or/both the HD and HDS outboard wings?
2. Can you register one airframe in both the Experimental and Sport
Pilot categories, depending on the outboard wings you use?
3. Say you built the HDS wings. It seems some projects will qualify for
Sport Pilot with no further modification, and some won't, but you won't know
until you perform the flight tests. Do you have to declare up front what
category you're applying for? If you don't, you can hold off adding VGs
until you find out whether the stock airframe you built will qualify.
Bill
Message 12
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| Subject: | Three big SP questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Alberti
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Three big SP questions
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Alberti" <daberti@sbcglobal.net>
Why don't you guys just take the FAA's word for what is already eligible as
a plane that can be flown by a pilot operating under "sport pilot"
certificate! The FAA says Zenith 601...Do you fly a Zenith 601? Done Deal!
Dave Zenith 601
I've not seen where the FAA has said such, I've only seen that the EAA has
put it on it's list of probable sport pilot qualified planes.
As to the original question, because of the sport pilot language, a wing
change would not qualify the plane as an LSA qualified plane. They put the
words "since its original certification" into the language. Hence, a
currently registered 601, with say an in-flight adjustable prop <not
properly placarded <grin>, could not be modified to qualify by changing to a
fixed or ground adjustable prop.
- Bruce
--
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 912 OIL thermostat |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
Bill
What model # oil thermostat do you use for the 912S?
Bob Spudis
FWIW, good source here: http://www.batinc.net/mocal.htm They have some
nice sandwich thermostats that go under the filter. No affiliation, etc,
though we use them ourselves.
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
www.flyinmiata.com
1-800-FLY-MX5S
tech 970-242-3800
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Source for inspection plates |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
You can buy premade plates at Aircraft Spruce for less than $3.00 each. They
work well.
P/N 09-18740
"I'd like to put some inspection plates on my 701 too! Does anyone have any
pictures of how they made and installed inspection plates? Intreiged by the
idea of making them with lexon. Wonder if that has been done and how it worked?"
Message 15
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| Subject: | Engine Monitoring |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
Dear List
Has anyone had any experiece with the AveoMaxiSingle E-1 universal engine
monitor? Seems to do everything at a good price.
Bob Spudis
CH-701 912S
Message 16
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| Subject: | Engine Monitoring |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Hi Bob
I dont' have experience in that unit But I have just found a system for
our 701, it may be worth a comparison look before you make your final
decision.
http://www.sensornetics.com/
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751
President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
--> Zenith-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com
Dear List
Has anyone had any experiece with the AveoMaxiSingle E-1 universal
engine
monitor? Seems to do everything at a good price.
Bob Spudis
CH-701 912S
--
9/23/2005
--
9/23/2005
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