---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/09/05: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:43 AM - prepurchase inspection 701 (Dave G.) 2. 04:53 AM - Re: Projects or completions in SC?Projects or completions in SC? (Tommy Walker) 3. 05:39 AM - How Much (Trell & Amy Hall) 4. 06:24 AM - Re: How Much (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 5. 06:30 AM - Re: Mo-money (Roland Smith) 6. 06:50 AM - Re: How Much (Clyde Barcus) 7. 06:58 AM - Re: Mo-money (Rick R) 8. 07:08 AM - Re: How Much (Clyde Barcus) 9. 07:34 AM - Re: Projects or completions in SC? (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 10. 08:22 AM - Re: How Much (N5SL) 11. 09:38 AM - Re: How Much (William J. Naumuk) 12. 10:47 AM - Re: How Much (Paul Mulwitz) 13. 12:55 PM - Rivets (Thilo Kind) 14. 02:03 PM - Ray Allen - A great company (Bill Morelli) 15. 02:22 PM - Re: How Much (ron dewees) 16. 02:34 PM - Re: Rivets (William J. Naumuk) 17. 03:32 PM - Re: How Much (Larry McFarland) 18. 04:08 PM - Re: How Much (kevinbonds) 19. 05:24 PM - Re: How Much (JAPhillipsGA@AOL.COM) 20. 07:41 PM - Re: How Much (mikeandlaurie3@netzero.net) 21. 09:06 PM - Zodiac 601XL and CH701 on display (T. Graziano) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:43:47 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Zenith-List: prepurchase inspection 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave G." I am looking to buy a 701. It is plans built, the seller seems like a truly nice guy and nothing he has told me gives me much pause. The plane looks good in pictures but I have yet to actually see it in person. I'd like to do this right, is there a prepurchase checklist that I can follow of questions to ask and things to look at? The aircraft is registered as a basic U/L in Canada. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:09 AM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Projects or completions in SC?Projects or completions in SC? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" ...snip: Hell, we can be civil, we just can't go taking leftists and smokers into our homes. Very few people can be counted on to leave their core beliefs and their cigarette smell at the door. Jeesszzz, I though a guy could be selective about overnight house guests in America. Ed Moody II do not archive (or smoke) (or support socialists) Ed Moody, The last time I landed at LeGros International, two guys from Crowley were holding flambeaus for runway lights. Glynn Mayard and Jessie Joubert. Know them? And are there any frogs left in Rayne since Rita? Tommy Walker in Alabama "I'm a tax and spend, affirmative action, confiscate your weapon liberal." But I don't smoke. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:34 AM PST US From: "Trell & Amy Hall" Subject: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trell & Amy Hall" I have been looking at the 601XL for some time now. I think me & my wife would enjoy the plane alot. What I have to ask "How Much" does the plane cost w/ a corvar engine, Basic Avionics , radio and intercom and also strobes. Some people say maybe 20k but I do not want to scratch build I can do my own Interior and Paint so please don't add this to the price. And do you guys just have that much money laying around to pay cash or how do you talk your wife into letting you have the charge card? Haven't started, NoMoMoney Trell do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:43 AM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Zenith kit price firewall aft: $15,900 Crating/ and shipping from ZAC : $500 Zero timed Corvair from W. W. : $6,700 601XL engine mount from W.W. : $700 Add about $10,000 for avionics and instruments if you buy retail and you come up with about $34,000 with no paint or interior finish. You can save the crating and shipping charges if you can drive to Mexico, MO to pick up the kit yourself. You can save a bunch of money on avionics and instruments by using Ebay. You can buy the component kits from ZAC and streach the cost out over more time but it'll cost a bit more in total. You can save some money if you build up your own engine. for comparison, I have about $44,000 in my XL with a full IFR panel and a Stratus Subaru. I bought most of my panel from Ebay auctions and paid about a third of retail overall. -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trell & Amy Hall" > > I have been looking at the 601XL for some time now. I think me & my wife would > enjoy the plane alot. > What I have to ask "How Much" does the plane cost w/ a corvar engine, Basic > Avionics , radio and intercom and also strobes. > Some people say maybe 20k but I do not want to scratch build > I can do my own Interior and Paint so please don't add this to the price. > And do you guys just have that much money laying around to pay cash or how do > you talk your wife > into letting you have the charge card? > > Haven't started, NoMoMoney > Trell > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive Zenith kit price firewall aft: $15,900 Crating/ and shippingfrom ZAC: $500 Zero timed Corvair from W. W. : $6,700 601XL engine mount from W.W.: $700 Add about $10,000 for avionics and instruments if you buy retail and you come up with about $34,000 with no paint or interior finish. You can save the crating and shipping charges if you can drive to Mexico, MO to pick up the kit yourself. You can save a bunch of money on avionics and instruments by using Ebay. You can buy the component kits from ZAC and streach the cost out over more time but it'll cost a bit more in total. You can save some money if you build up your own engine. for comparison, I have about $44,000 in my XL with a full IFR panel and a Stratus Subaru. I bought most of my panel from Ebay auctions and paid about a third of retail overall. -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: "Trell Amy Hall" I have been looking at the 601XL for some time now. I think me my wife would enjoy the plane alot. What I have to ask "How Much" does the plane cost w/ a corvar engine, Basic Avionics , radio and intercom and also strobes. Some people say maybe 20k but I do not want to scratch build I can do my own Interior and Paint so please don't add this to the price. And do you guys just have that much money laying around to pay cash or how do you talk your wife into letting you have the charge card? Haven't started, NoMoMoney Trell -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:13 AM PST US From: "Roland Smith" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mo-money --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roland Smith" Yes, not cluttering the site with irrelevant and personal matters, except as related to the purpose of the site, would be greatly appreciated. As a busy 701 kit builder ( tail done and ready for R wing skins--anticipating 912 ULS and amphibious floats) and needing all the help I can get, the site is important and very helpful to me. The daily communications are getting a bit long and banter can be irritating, distracting and time consuming. Having said that, whoever is talking during class, thanks for your being here when you address topics to the group. DO NOT ARCHIVE Roland Smith, Bennington Vermont ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:38 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" I think it could be plans built for around $25,000 if you are determined to stick to a budget. I planned on building mine for under $30,000, at least that what I told my wife, but you start adding options, etc. and the price climbs quickly, a lot like a remodeling project. The basic kit as you know is $15,890, a Corvair can be built for $3,000, mine looks like it will be closer to $5,000, and instruments depends on your minimums. I had every intention of sticking to a budget but I admit I failed, something my wife reminded me of yesterday. That said, go for it, there is nothing like completing a dream, build on a budget and add options when it fits. Clyde Barcus 601 XL Corvair Powered Do not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trell & Amy Hall" Subject: Zenith-List: How Much > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trell & Amy Hall" > > > I have been looking at the 601XL for some time now. I think me & my wife > would enjoy the plane alot. > What I have to ask "How Much" does the plane cost w/ a corvar engine, > Basic Avionics , radio and intercom and also strobes. > Some people say maybe 20k but I do not want to scratch build > I can do my own Interior and Paint so please don't add this to the price. > And do you guys just have that much money laying around to pay cash or how > do you talk your wife > into letting you have the charge card? > > Haven't started, NoMoMoney > Trell > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:44 AM PST US From: Rick R Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mo-money --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick R It's all good...it all went over my head. (I checked ...I looked up...) I'm sorry for fat fingering on reply button to the list Vs a private post to ZR.... DO NOT ARCHIVE Rick Orlando, FL. USA http://www.geocities.com/n701rr/index.html --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:56 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" My mistake, I meant to say kit built. William Wynne has said the corvair conversion has been built for as little as $2,500. It depends a lot on how good of a scrounger you are, as far as instruments, you can get by with darn little and a hand held radio. $25,000 is possible, but most will spend several thousand more. I have about 75% purchased and it looks like I will be about $31,000, I could have shaved a few thousand if I tried hard enough. Clyde Barcus: 601XL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trell & Amy Hall" Subject: Zenith-List: How Much > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trell & Amy Hall" > > > I have been looking at the 601XL for some time now. I think me & my wife > would enjoy the plane alot. > What I have to ask "How Much" does the plane cost w/ a corvar engine, > Basic Avionics , radio and intercom and also strobes. > Some people say maybe 20k but I do not want to scratch build > I can do my own Interior and Paint so please don't add this to the price. > And do you guys just have that much money laying around to pay cash or how > do you talk your wife > into letting you have the charge card? > > Haven't started, NoMoMoney > Trell > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:18 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Projects or completions in SC? --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Paul, you really got to loosen up a bit, maybe get a hobby, learn to do something constructive with you mind and hands, Best regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:15 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL Hi Trell: Plans-building offers dramatic cost savings. I have around $10K into my airplane and it's almost done. My engine is 90% complete. I plan to have a flying 601XL for around $15K next summer after three years of building. I've saved all of my receipts so I can check this for accuracy after it's all done. The cost stays pretty tame at first with sheets of aluminum and a few new tools. The first big expenditure was the wheel and brake package at $500. Corvair engine parts purchasing (forged pistons, machine work, etc.) was my next big hit and the carburetor was the most expensive single item I've purchased so far at $900. Study William Wynne's site for a pretty realistic idea of what the Corvair engine will cost (www.flycorvair.com). The best thing for me about William's site is that he has built and is flying a 601XL with a Corvair engine. He knows what works and what doesn't. I'm just copying his installation and he has been great at answering questions and providing me with support. I fabricated my engine mount after I learned to gas weld and that saved a lot of money. I welded up all of the 4130 steel parts like the rudder pedals, main gear supports and steps. This was my first attempt at gas welding and I find it not that difficult and a lot of fun. If I had to do it all over again I'd not even consider building from the kit - but that's just me. Larry McFarland's and Michel Therrien's websites (http://www.macsmachine.com/ and http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/) were a huge help to me and I was studying them months before I purchased my first sheet of aluminum. I'm proud to say you can see a photo of my bending brake (built from Larry's plans) posted on Larry's site under "bend brake" then "Special Offer." It's the green one at the top of the page. Mark Townsend and David Barth have put a lot of information at www.ch601.org also to help you out. The best thing I did to get my project going was to attend the rudder workshop. If you plan to build a ZAC airplane, be sure to get signed up for an upcoming workshop and make the time to attend. Bring your wife along too. I've documented my adventure at http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ which is an attempt to give back some of the help I've received from Larry and Michel and many, many others. I hope to be finishing up my wiring soon and have my engine mounted for the last time so I can install the firewall forward stuff that is sitting on my shelves. The foam for my seats and some cowhide I got on Ebay are at an upholstery shop being stitched up. I can't give you any advice on talking your wife into letting you run up the charge card. Happy Building, Scott Laughlin N5SL (Reserved) 601XL / Corvair --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trell & Amy Hall" I have been looking at the 601XL for some time now. I think me & my wife would enjoy the plane alot. or how do you talk your wife into letting you have the charge card? Haven't started, NoMoMoney Trell do not archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:53 AM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trell & Amy Hall" Subject: Zenith-List: How Much Trell- If you're factoring in your time and money is your prime consideration, I recommend that you buy an Ercoupe and be flying tomorrow. If you want the ultimate rewards and disappointments as a result of your mental skills and manual dexterity with the lowest weekly outlay, build from plans. If you want the ultimate rewards and disappointments as a result of your mental skills and manual dexterity with the highest weekly outlay, build from a kit. If you want to screw up, worry about the time and money spent. As far as instumentation is concerned, with the recent explosion in glass cockpit capability vs price, by the time you're ready to buy instruments, steam gauges will be doorstops. I built my first computer in '95, a 486-DX2-50 for just under $2K. I'm writing this on an Athlon 64 3.4G I built last year for less than $600. Instrumentation will be lighter, cheaper, and easier to install by the time you need to worry about it. Glass cockpits are right on the edge of viability now! As far as the powerplant is concerned, you probably won't know what you're going to get until you sign the check. For me, the major consideration is engine mount and cowling availability and price. The little (Big) things will blow a budget to kingdom come, either time or initial outlay-wise. In retrospect, I should have built from plans. I sold my share in a 180HP C-172 to get out of having to pay for annuals and to finance my kit. Unlike you, I'm already committed, and that's my overall recommendation. Take the 4th paragraph to heart. Good luck! Bill > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:09 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Bill, I agree with much of your comments. However, it is the small parts I disagree with that I will write about. I think kit building is a good choice for some people, and scratch building is a good choice for a different group of people. In both cases, the amount of work and time involved in building an airplane is so huge the most important question is whether or not the builder will have the persistence and perseverance to complete the project. From my point of view, the big differences between scratch building and kit building are the skills needed and activities to be performed. Scratch builders must do all the stuff kit builders do (except dealing with problems in the kit). In addition they must locate and purchase all the materials and parts, find contractors to perform tasks they don't want to do themselves (like welding or bending 12 foot sheets of aluminum) and inspect each little bit of material to insure it is actually the correct stuff. For this effort the scratch builder gets a relatively small saving in cash outlay and freedom from the kit factory shipping backlog. I suppose I should explain my reasoning about the "Relatively small saving" scratch builders get. As a kit builder, I compare my cost for the airplane to the cost of buying the same plane as a complete factory built plane. A quick and dirty calculation tells me I can get a new XL for around $40,000 building from kit and $80,000 buying factory complete. If it takes a year of "Full time" effort for me to accomplish that feat then I have saved $40,000 in a year. That is roughly equivalent to the amount of money I got paid for working as an engineer for the big companies - after deducting all the payroll taxes. Perhaps by scratch building I could get the same plane for $30,000 but it might take me three years to do it instead of one. That means my "Pay" for building my own plane is greater, $50,000, but the pay rate is only $17,000 per year. The bottom line, IMHO, is either scratch building or kit building is a fine choice so long as the builder in question goes in with his eyes open. Alas, your biggest point - to not spend a lot of time worrying about the money - is wise but not possible for some potential builders. There is just no way some people can come up with the money to be an airplane owner no matter how much work they are willing to do in lieu of cash in hand. For some people the first step must be to change their financial life style to enable entry into this fun little hobby. Best regards, Paul XL wings (kit) At 09:40 AM 10/9/2005, you wrote: >If you want the ultimate rewards and disappointments as a result of your >mental skills and manual dexterity with the lowest weekly outlay, build from >plans. > If you want the ultimate rewards and disappointments as a result of your >mental skills and manual dexterity with the highest weekly outlay, build >from a kit. > If you want to screw up, worry about the time and money spent. --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:12 PM PST US From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Zenith-List: Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" Not really Zenith-related, but might be of interest.... Yesterday, my mom came to the airport and brought with her an old neighbour. The guy is 84 and his doctor does not allow him to fly anymore - not even on a passanger plane. He flew a Messerschmidt ME 100 in the world war II - this was a 2 engine fighter plane. He was quite happy to be around planes again and told a lot of interesting stories. Got shot down 3 times - one time by the German flak. Anyway, fighting mostly British Lancaster bombers during night raides, the planes got pounded pretty well, so the mechanics had to change a lot of wing panels, etc. He told me, that they had no blind rivets like on my Zodiac CH 601 HDS (which, by the way, he liked very much). Instead, they used rivets with a small explosive inside. The rivet was inserted into the holes and then heated with a soldering iron. That caused the explosive to blow, which opened up the rivet shack like an unbrella - voila, the rivet was set. Now, that would be something on a Zodiac... Happy building / flying Thilo Kind do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:14 PM PST US From: "Bill Morelli" Subject: Zenith-List: Ray Allen - A great company --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Morelli" I have Ray Allen trim servos installed in my HDS which has 432 flight hours on it. Recently, a couple of LED's went out in both the aileron and elevator trim indicators. I called Ray Allen and they had me ship the indicators back. Mine were purchased way back in 1999 and they said some of the trim indicators from back in that timeframe had been failing. I shipped them on a Monday from Vermont to California and I received brand new indicators back the following Monday. There was no charge and they even included new stick on overlays and new mounting hardware. Since these indicators were way past the warranty period, I was not expecting Ray Allen to fix them for free and certainly was not expecting new units. Just wanted to recommend Ray Allen as an outstanding company to do business with. Their trim servos work great also. Regards, Bill (N812BM - 601HDS - Tri - Stratus (RAM Heads) - Vermont - 432.6 flight hrs. - 582 landings web site -> http://homepages.together.net/~billvt/ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:24 PM PST US From: ron dewees Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees Trell, One more thing you might need to keep in mind if you opt to pick up your components from ZAC in MO is that some states are very agressive in tracking "lost" sales tax revenue. If you save crating charges initially you may well have to pay state sales tax when you get a N number or register your plane. If you can't prove you didn't buy from an individual you will owe state tax on it. The law may vary in other sates, but I went thru it in Georgia. Good luck! Ron DeWees do not archive bryanmmartin@comcast.net wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net > >Zenith kit price firewall aft: $15,900 >Crating/ and shipping from ZAC : $500 > >Zero timed Corvair from W. W. : $6,700 >601XL engine mount from W.W. : $700 > >Add about $10,000 for avionics and instruments if you buy retail and you come up with about $34,000 with no paint or interior finish. > >You can save the crating and shipping charges if you can drive to Mexico, MO to pick up the kit yourself. You can save a bunch of money on avionics and instruments by using Ebay. You can buy the component kits from ZAC and streach the cost out over more time but it'll cost a bit more in total. You can save some money if you build up your own engine. > >for comparison, I have about $44,000 in my XL with a full IFR panel and a Stratus Subaru. I bought most of my panel from Ebay auctions and paid about a third of retail overall. > > >-------------- Original message -------------- > > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trell & Amy Hall" >> >>I have been looking at the 601XL for some time now. I think me & my wife would >>enjoy the plane alot. >>What I have to ask "How Much" does the plane cost w/ a corvar engine, Basic >>Avionics , radio and intercom and also strobes. >>Some people say maybe 20k but I do not want to scratch build >>I can do my own Interior and Paint so please don't add this to the price. >>And do you guys just have that much money laying around to pay cash or how do >>you talk your wife >>into letting you have the charge card? >> >>Haven't started, NoMoMoney >>Trell >> >> >> > > >- > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:23 PM PST US From: "William J. Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thilo Kind" Subject: Zenith-List: Rivets > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thilo Kind" > > Not really Zenith-related, but might be of interest.... > > Yesterday, my mom came to the airport and brought with her an old neighbour. The guy is 84 and his doctor does not allow him to fly anymore - not even on a passanger plane. He flew a Messerschmidt ME 100 in Thilo- ME 110. My uncle was a Tech Sergeant and top turret gunner with the 100th Group of the 8th Air Corps, flying B-17s. From what he's told me, explosive rivets don't surprise me. Asked him one time what the nose art on his plane was, and he just said "Plain Aluminum". They lost planes so fast, they didn't have time to paint them. Bill > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:49 PM PST US From: Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland I don't think scratch building should be all about money, because the scope is too large and there isn't a lot there. You have to make the jigs and all the tool setups before you can even think about making parts. I've have the equivalent of two canopy-boxes full of jigs, forms and tooling that went into the HDS. I do recommend, at the least, that if you screw up a part, you should try to make the replacement part yourself. You'll save a lot on part cost, trucking and learn enough to scratch build as you go. And if you do decide you want to scratch build, learn to do everything it takes, including welding, machining and working thru the structural numbers to assure that you can build a safe machine. The best of being a scratch builder is that you are totally responsible for anything you change and everything you maintain. Mine took 5-1/2 years and well over the $35K most builders would spend on a kit. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Do not archive Paul Mulwitz wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >Hi Bill, > >I agree with much of your comments. However, it is the small parts I >disagree with that I will write about. > >I think kit building is a good choice for some people, and scratch >building is a good choice for a different group of people. In both >cases, the amount of work and time involved in building an airplane >is so huge the most important question is whether or not the builder >will have the persistence and perseverance to complete the project. > >--------------------------------------------- >Paul Mulwitz >32013 NE Dial Road >Camas, WA 98607 >--------------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:44 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" Or you can do like me . . . Start scratch building; then decide that you want to know everything there is to know about building airplanes; Quite your current "career"; enroll in the nearest aviation engineering/technology course and spend who knows haw many thousands of dollars on tuition, all because you decided to build a little two seat "kitplane". :) (I don't know why I can't just do things the easy way) Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland I don't think scratch building should be all about money, because the scope is too large and there isn't a lot there. You have to make the jigs and all the tool setups before you can even think about making parts. I've have the equivalent of two canopy-boxes full of jigs, forms and tooling that went into the HDS. I do recommend, at the least, that if you screw up a part, you should try to make the replacement part yourself. You'll save a lot on part cost, trucking and learn enough to scratch build as you go. And if you do decide you want to scratch build, learn to do everything it takes, including welding, machining and working thru the structural numbers to assure that you can build a safe machine. The best of being a scratch builder is that you are totally responsible for anything you change and everything you maintain. Mine took 5-1/2 years and well over the $35K most builders would spend on a kit. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Do not archive Paul Mulwitz wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >Hi Bill, > >I agree with much of your comments. However, it is the small parts I >disagree with that I will write about. > >I think kit building is a good choice for some people, and scratch >building is a good choice for a different group of people. In both >cases, the amount of work and time involved in building an airplane >is so huge the most important question is whether or not the builder >will have the persistence and perseverance to complete the project. > >--------------------------------------------- >Paul Mulwitz >32013 NE Dial Road >Camas, WA 98607 >--------------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:10 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Trell, another option to engine savings is to consider the use of a formally certified airplane engine. Think of all the small certified aircraft that were smashed up and never to be repaired in the last two big storms and their engines perfectly good (maybe ? ) Think. There is a FWF kit (or at least there used to be) for 235 out of the Cessna 150/152s. Make a XL fly fast and would save a ton of $.... even over a 40 year old nationally rejected GM car motor lash up. I put down over 17 K $ on my Jab FWF 3300 and though I am pleased and happy with the plane I would not do it again. Not knowing what I know now. Best to you, Bill DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:32 PM PST US From: "mikeandlaurie3@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much --> Zenith-List message posted by: "mikeandlaurie3@netzero.net" I dreamed of building for 10 years - wife always gave me a nod and a "uh huh honey". Talked her into a flight in an RV6-A - they were gone for an hour! Took her to Copperstate and sent her up in 601XL factory plane with Nick. She came back grinning from ear to ear and said "why don't you order the kit, honey" Working on fuselage now. Got a home equity loan for the money. Gonna retire (4 years) to Missouri and when we sell our house in AZ we'll be out of debt and 100K + in the bank. I gotta believe finished price is gonna be 30K when it's all said and done. Mike in AZ I dreamed of building for 10 years - wife always gave me a nod and a "uh huh honey". Talked her into a flight in an RV6-A - they were gone for an hour! Took her to Copperstate and sent her up in 601XL factory plane with Nick. She came back grinning from ear to ear and said "why don't you order the kit, honey" Working on fuselage now. Got a home equity loan for the money. Gonna retire (4 years) to Missouri and when we sell our house in AZ we'll be out of debt and 100K + in the bank. Igotta believe finished price is gonna be 30K when it's all said and done. Mike in AZ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:11 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac 601XL and CH701 on display --> Zenith-List message posted by: "T. Graziano" The Paris Tn EAA Chapter 734 will be hosting a Hamburger/Hotdog, chips and drink fundraiser at the Paris/Henry County Airport (KPHT) on Saturday, October 22, from 1000 hrs to 1400 hrs. Experimental homebuilt airplanes will be on display including a Zodiac 601XL, a Zenith CH701, an Avid Flyer and a Titan Tornado. Builders and pilots will be happy to answer questions and talk AIRPLANES! with visitors. KPHT is on the lower edge of St. Louis Sectional and is located about 70 miles East and a little North of Nashville, Tn and about 130 miles NNE of Memphis, Tn. Tony Graziano 601XL with Jabiru 3300A; N493TG 37.6 hrs into Phase I testing and having a heck of a lot of flying fun doing it.