Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:35 AM - Re: best shears (ROBERT SCEPPA)
2. 06:49 AM - Use & Sales Tax Issues WAS: re How Much (Gig Giacona)
3. 07:55 AM - Re: Ray Allen - A great company (Brandon Tucker)
4. 08:05 AM - Re: How Much (Brandon Tucker)
5. 08:07 AM - Re: Building Wing Spars (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
6. 08:16 AM - EGT Balance issues with Jabiru 3300 (charles.long@gm.com)
7. 01:01 PM - Re: (This is) How Much (N5SL)
8. 03:39 PM - Re: How Much (William J. Naumuk)
9. 05:18 PM - I need help already! (Michael Valentine)
10. 05:44 PM - Re: How Much (Brandon Tucker)
11. 05:48 PM - Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd (Mark Stauffer)
12. 05:56 PM - Re: Re: How Much (Craig Payne)
13. 06:05 PM - Re: I need help already! (William J. Naumuk)
14. 06:08 PM - Re: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd (Craig Payne)
15. 06:23 PM - Re: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd (Craig Payne)
16. 06:47 PM - Re: I need help already! (doug kandle)
17. 07:35 PM - Inspection plates. (Larry)
18. 07:35 PM - Re: I need help already! (Larry)
19. 07:40 PM - Re: I need help already! (Paul Mulwitz)
20. 08:19 PM - Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd (Jeff Davidson)
21. 08:30 PM - Re: I need help already! (kevinbonds)
22. 08:35 PM - Re: I need help already! (kevinbonds)
23. 11:13 PM - Just to clear the air (kevinbonds)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
> Aaron, thanks for the info about the shears. I
> looked on the website and found the TS1 model, it
> was listed $39.90 and shipping about another $8.
> I researched my area and found a local distributor.
> However they didn't carry the cheaper model, but did
> carry the heavier duty one. Seems they dropped that
> lighter duty one. Anyway for another $28 it was a
> good buy and it comes with the kit to attach it to
> a drill. I am going to try to rig up some kind of
> holder so I can cut the long pieces of aluminum on
> a table using a guide. Thanks again.
> Bob Sceppa <rjscep@yahoo.com>
--- Aaron <agustafson@chartermi.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Aaron"
> <agustafson@chartermi.net>
>
> Thanks for all the replies. I guess Malco it will
> be. I had seen them and
> they looked like they might be the ticket, but w/o
> feedback I just didn't
> want to waste my money.
> Aaron do not archive
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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Message 2
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"Zenith-List Digest List" <zenith-list-digest@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Use & Sales Tax Issues WAS: re How Much |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
Just having it crated and shipped doesn't, in most states, clear you from
sales tax or as most states call it USE tax. I have no idea how Zenith gets
away with not charging sales tax on items picked up there but if you have it
shipped to you in another state most states can put on the tax burden.
How well they police it is varies greatly from state to state.
Time: 02:22:24 PM PST US
From: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ron dewees <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Trell,
One more thing you might need to keep in mind if you opt to pick up your
components from ZAC in MO is that some states are very agressive in
tracking "lost" sales tax revenue. If you save crating charges
initially you may well have to pay state sales tax when you get a N
number or register your plane. If you can't prove you didn't buy from an
individual you will owe state tax on it. The law may vary in other
sates, but I went thru it in Georgia.
Good luck!
Ron DeWees
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: Ray Allen - A great company |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Bill,
I live in the same town as Ray Allen Co. The
owner just received his CAW built 701 this summer, and
I often see it flying around KCRQ. He has it decked
out with their newest control grips, ect..
-A company that services our comunity, and flies
what we fly.
R/
Brandon
__________________________________
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Bill,
>>.... even over a 40 year old nationally rejected GM
car motor lash
>>up.
-That is a hell of a comment. I think it was a
weak attempt at humor, kinda' like the political
comment, but...
If you have put a zero timed O-235 into a Zodie
for less than 5 or 6 thousand I'm sure we would all
like to hear the details...
R/
Brandon
601 HDS
airframe complete
engine installed
wiring panel
__________________________________
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Building Wing Spars |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Actually this looks very similar to the C frame dimpler the RV guys
use....Hmm I never thought about using it to set rivets. (could use the
cupped head as the bottom die too) It should work just fine.
I might drive a few just for fun.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zodie
Rocket
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Building Wing Spars
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
For $25.00 and about 2 hours work you can have you own Super duty Spar
Rivet smasher. A few people have built this on the list and everyone has
been happy with the results.
http://www.ch601.org/tools/dimpler/dimpler.htm
Enjoy making the spars is a daunting process.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL , Osprey 2 serial # 751
President: Kitchener/Waterloo RAA Chapter www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com
/ www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Johnson
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Building Wing Spars
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "B Johnson" <bjohnson@satx.rr.com>
The Sonex guys use a big bolt and a hammer on one end, and a bucking bar
against under the spar on the workbench on the other end. I'm not to
that point on my Sonex, but if you know a Sonexbuilder who is.....
- Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd
Osborne
Subject: Zenith-List: Building Wing Spars
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Todd Osborne" <todd@toddtown.com>
I need to get something (but relatively cheap) going on my Zodiac and am
considering building the wing spars to keep me busy for a while. The
last set I made for an HD many years ago, I bucked the solid rivets
because the HD used a (approx) 1.5" spar cap. I am at work now and not
sure exactly what the XL uses, but I assume the spar is a similar
design.
My question is this, and this is based solely on inexperience with
pneumatic sqeezers. If I chose to squeeze the rivets rather than buck
them, how do you do it while "reaching over" the spar cap? The ones I
have seen have such a small mount that I cannot imagine being able to do
it over the cap.
Or should I buck them, or drive them? And lastly, since I would only
need the squeezer for a day or so to set all the solid rivets, is there
a place where you can rent a tool like this?
Todd Osborne
Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
Web Site: www.toddtown.com
MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com AOL Instant Messenger:
toddosborn@aol.com
--
--
--
10/5/2005
--
10/5/2005
Message 6
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| Subject: | EGT Balance issues with Jabiru 3300 |
27, 2005) at 10/10/2005 11:14:48 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com
For those of you with Jabiru 3300's, the following info may be
helpful if you are having CHT or EGT issues:
I've solved a EGT imbalance issue with my 601HDS. At full throttle,
EGT's from left to right bank were 150 F different. I suspected that air
entering the carb through a 90 degree elbow was piling up on the outside of
the curve. I installed a vertical divider in the elbow to keep left side
air separated from the right side air. This worked beautifully. My EGT's
are now balanced within roughly 50 F at all throttle settings including
WOT. The divider was fabricated out of a piece of 6061T6 aluminum - 5.00"
x 2.75" x .016". The upper and lower edges were rolled around a 1/16"
cable to add stiffness and prevent cutting of the rubber elbow. Finished
height is just slightly over 2.25 inches so it fits snuggly within the
elbow. After rolling the edges, the part was bent 90 degrees to fit the
elbow contour by wrapping around a 2" diameter plastic pipe. After it
springs back, you end up with a 2" bend radius which is equivalent to the
center radius of the elbow. Once the part is finished, the cable can be
removed (corrosion issue). The rubber elbow is quite pliable in the free
state, so the flow divider installs quite easily. After installation, the
divider is trapped pretty well in all directions.
After a 28 hour breakin and tweeking the Ram Air ducts, my EGT's and
CHT's are running as follows:
RPM IAS CHT1 CHT2 CHT3 CHT4 CHT5 CHT6 EGT5 EGT6
2600 110 247 228 259 247 272 245 1465 1423
2700 120 242 221 253 239 265 240 1486 1451
2800 125 242 226 252 242 265 244 1512 1498
2900 130 253 246 260 260 268 262 1482 1538
WOT 138 288 293 293 298 301 297 1463 1482
This was a quickie test and temps/speeds were not totally stabilized.
Oil temps varied from 200-230F depending on Throttle setting.
Test was run at 3500 ft MSL, ambient 60F. Econ Carb jets & wheel pants
installed.
The Jabiru is running very nice. I'm happy with the installation,
power and smoothness after getting through these initial teething problems.
Fuel burn at lower cruise settings is estimated at a miserly 4 gph. With
the fat wing, I suspect fuel burn will go way up at the higher cruise
speeds. Can't wait to finish flying off my 40 hours so I can give some
rides!
Chuck Long
Zodie 601HDS
N601LE, 29 hr TT
----- Forwarded by Charles F. Long/US/ATD/GMC on 10/10/2005 09:17 AM -----
Charles F. Long
09/28/2005 07:58 AM
cc:
Subject: EGT Balance issues with Jabiru 3300
I'm still having issues with EGT balancing at full throttle on my HDS
with Jab3300. I've installed the Fuel Econ Carb kit and now am seeing
stabilized peak CHT's at full power (320F). Cruise CHT's are only 20F
higher than before (290F). I've tried a new 90 degree Rubber intake elbow
with a longer straight section at the carb and it helped a little (reduced
WOT imbalance from 200F to 150F). Also tried rotating the carb, which
helped balance the front cylinder CHT's but didn't do much to EGT's. EGT's
at low cruise are balanced at 1450F. Higher speed cruise are balanced at
1520F. WOT is split - Left side 1400, Right side 1550. Since CHT's seem
to be under control, not sure how much more work I should do. I could
drill out the main jet and / or needle jet but not altogether comfortable
moving away from the factory settings. Any thoughts here?
Chuck Long
N601LE, 25 hr TT
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: (This is) How Much |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
For those following this thread from yesterday, I added up all my receipts today
and have $10,187.05 invested in my almost complete airplane and engine (minus
canopy). This includes the ZAC plans, the rudder school with travel and lodging,
most of the parts to finish my engine, a little third-party work such as
bending, machine work and powder-coating, all of the aluminum, nuts, bolts, cables,
wire, primer and rivets to finish the tail, wings and fuselage, and all
instrumentation including flight instruments, engine instruments, radio and transponder.
I have budgeted another $5,000 to complete the project by next summer.
This of course does not account for my time over the past three years which was
donated for free since I find it very enjoyable. But that's just me.
Lastly I can't put a price on the valuable help I've received from fellow builders
that make up a list too long to mention which is one of the reasons I like
this hobby - it's a great group of folks to be associated with.
Happy Building,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
601XL / W_Wynne_Corvair Conversion
Working on Wiring and FWF
---------------------------------
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How Much
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
I do recommend, at
the least, that
> if you screw up a part, you should try to make the replacement part
> yourself.
All-
I don't think anyone will dispute the fact that the SHIPPING WILL KILL
YOU!!! There is no better incentive for doing some scratch building than
looking at the price of a Zenith replacement part and saying, "That's not
too bad" and then PAYING TWICE AGAIN WHAT THE PART COST FOR SHIPPING! From
an actual invoice- HDS Nose Skin- $189.00. Price with shipping- $435.80. It
cost me about $50.00 to make a variation of Larry's bend jig, and a sheet of
.025 including shipping is about $65.00. Running across Larry's website
literally saved my project.
Maybe compromise is the best approach from all angles. Buy the plans and
figure out what you can easily make, like ribs and skins. Find a good
contract welder, figure on cutting the pieces for him, and just paying for
the actual welding of the gear legs, control stick, etc. For the stuff
that's too big, too hard to find, or that you don't trust anyone else to
make, order in one shot from Zenith. What the heck, if you give up and
decide to entirely go with a kit, Zenith will credit you for the price of
the plans upon kit purchase, so it doesn't cost you anything to investigate.
It seems the only other hot spot on the list is concerning powerplant.
Someone said, "Show me a zero time 0-235 for 5-6K". Don't forget, you're
experimental. You don't have to buy a zero-time certified engine- you can
buy a run-out and zero time it yourself. Isn't that what you're intending to
do to a run-out auto engine?
I still contend that the engine itself is less than half the equation-
coming up with the engine mount, baffles, and cowling are the big problems.
Admit it- that's why a FWF kit is so attractive (Except for the pricetag).
Come on, Igor, back to the lab. Not THOSE skins! Take them back to the
graveyard where you found them.............
Bill
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | I need help already! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
Hello all,
So, I took the plunge. For those of you who responded to my questions
a couple weeks ago - thanks. Now I am the proud owner of a tail kit -
but things are already going wrong! Before I even drilled a hole, I
felt compelled to call the factory to confirm some measurements I
didn't understand, and now, barely another hour in, I have another
problem.
I followed the text of the rudder manual - p. 11 of 16 - to install
Rear Rib #3 with the flange up. (BTW, my RR#3 - 6T4-8 has the flange
going the opposite direction of the other folds in the rib as all the
drawings show.) Now, when I go back to install the nose rib, I
realize that something must be wrong because they are supposed to line
up. The drawings actually show the RR#3 flange pointed down. Of
course, my holes aren't perfectly spaced, so I can't just turn it
around.
Where did I go wrong? Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to
need to check the drawings for every single step? Obviously it is a
cheap and easy lesson to learn this early, but is a bit frustrating
nonetheless!
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Cheers, Michael Valentine
do not archive
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
>Don't forget, you're experimental. You don't have to
buy a zero-time >certified engine- you can buy a
run-out and zero time it yourself. Isn't >that what
you're intending to do to a run-out auto engine?
I did not forget, and said nothing about
certificated. Just the parts to zero-time an O-235
are several thousand. The certified mechanics at my
airport make between 20 and 30 dollars an hour.
Assembly labor costs are a small portion of a
certificated rebuild job.
Also, the 5 - 6 thousand I was referring to is
what I paid firewall forward, including engine mount,
carb, prop, cowling, new valve guides, seats, pistons,
ect...
R/
Brandon
__________________________________
Message 11
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| Subject: | Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" <mark.stauffer@cablespeed.com>
To anyone that has gone before me.......
I'm installing a Jabiru 3300 on my 601XL. I have dual sticks and the single
vernier throttle cable. Where/how did you run your throttle and choke
cables? Did you run it through the center channel right next to the nose
gear? How did you keep them, especially the choke cable, from chafing the
bungee cord? If not there did you run it on the right side of the center
channel? If so did you put a slight bend in the brass ferrules so the cable
could clear the channel? Last question, what did you use for a grommet, a
simple rubber grommet with "dum-dum" or did you use the nice fireproof metal
grommets that I can't seem to find now in the AS&S catalog?
Thanks for any and all help.
Mark
Odenton, MD
Installing the engine......
Message 12
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Received-SPF: none (mgr1.xmission.com: 166.70.39.121 is neither permitted nor denied
by domain of craigandjean.com) client-ip=166.70.39.121; envelope-from=craig@craigandjean.com;
helo=TheTCCraig;
T_TM2_M_HEADER_IN_MSG autolearn=disabled version=3.0.3
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Not to mention the 1.7 million people who (over a ten year period) did *not*
"reject" the Corvair - they bought one.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Tucker
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: How Much
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
>Don't forget, you're experimental. You don't have to
buy a zero-time >certified engine- you can buy a run-out and zero time it
yourself. Isn't >that what you're intending to do to a run-out auto engine?
I did not forget, and said nothing about certificated. Just the parts
to zero-time an O-235 are several thousand. The certified mechanics at my
airport make between 20 and 30 dollars an hour.
Assembly labor costs are a small portion of a certificated rebuild job.
Also, the 5 - 6 thousand I was referring to is what I paid firewall
forward, including engine mount, carb, prop, cowling, new valve guides,
seats, pistons, ect...
R/
Brandon
__________________________________
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: I need help already! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "William J. Naumuk" <billn@velocity.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Valentine" <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: I need help already!
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine
<mgvalentine@gmail.com>
Mike-
Go by the prints.
Bill
>
>
Message 14
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Received-SPF: none (mgr1.xmission.com: 166.70.39.121 is neither permitted nor denied
by domain of craigandjean.com) client-ip=166.70.39.121; envelope-from=craig@craigandjean.com;
helo=TheTCCraig;
| Subject: | Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd |
T_TM2_M_HEADER_IN_MSG autolearn=disabled version=3.0.3
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
"nice fireproof metal grommets"
I don't think these are what you are thinking of but they might solve part
of your problem:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/eyeballfw.php
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Stauffer
Subject: Zenith-List: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer"
--> <mark.stauffer@cablespeed.com>
To anyone that has gone before me.......
I'm installing a Jabiru 3300 on my 601XL. I have dual sticks and the single
vernier throttle cable. Where/how did you run your throttle and choke
cables? Did you run it through the center channel right next to the nose
gear? How did you keep them, especially the choke cable, from chafing the
bungee cord? If not there did you run it on the right side of the center
channel? If so did you put a slight bend in the brass ferrules so the cable
could clear the channel? Last question, what did you use for a grommet, a
simple rubber grommet with "dum-dum" or did you use the nice fireproof metal
grommets that I can't seem to find now in the AS&S catalog?
Thanks for any and all help.
Mark
Odenton, MD
Installing the engine......
Message 15
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Received-SPF: none (mgr1.xmission.com: 166.70.39.121 is neither permitted nor denied
by domain of craigandjean.com) client-ip=166.70.39.121; envelope-from=craig@craigandjean.com;
helo=TheTCCraig;
| Subject: | Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd |
T_TM2_M_HEADER_IN_MSG autolearn=disabled version=3.0.3
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
"nice fireproof metal grommets"
Hah! I think I found what you are thinking of but I found them on Van's
site:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1128993311-78-363&brow
se=airframe&product=firewall-shields
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Stauffer
Subject: Zenith-List: Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer"
--> <mark.stauffer@cablespeed.com>
To anyone that has gone before me.......
I'm installing a Jabiru 3300 on my 601XL. I have dual sticks and the single
vernier throttle cable. Where/how did you run your throttle and choke
cables? Did you run it through the center channel right next to the nose
gear? How did you keep them, especially the choke cable, from chafing the
bungee cord? If not there did you run it on the right side of the center
channel? If so did you put a slight bend in the brass ferrules so the cable
could clear the channel? Last question, what did you use for a grommet, a
simple rubber grommet with "dum-dum" or did you use the nice fireproof metal
grommets that I can't seem to find now in the AS&S catalog?
Thanks for any and all help.
Mark
Odenton, MD
Installing the engine......
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: I need help already! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
I just started my 701 a couple of months ago. I found that you do
have to double/triple check the drawings at every step. Not because
I have found errors, but because I didn't see every detail. I
finally decided to locate all the parts and, using a felt tip pen,
mark where they are going to go. If possible I clamp all the parts
roughly together or even tape them on. I then compare what I have
pasted together with several pictures in the assembly
instructions. It is easy to miss a left-right or up-down annotation
on the drawings.
I have been surprised by what details the instructions have chosen to
explain and which they left out. Perhaps the instructions left off
were so obvious to the writer that they should go without
saying! For example, I am now working on the wings. When installing
the rear channel, the instructions say that you should be sure that
the ribs are perpendicular to the spar. I did that very carefully
(clamping the spar & ribs to my table), but then found that the
lengths needed for the channels (the distances between the rear of
the ribs) were not right. The problem was that when just placed on
edge, the wing spar is not perfectly straight (I guess the rivets
sort of curve it a bit - I bought the complete kit so this is how ZAC
builds them). The instructions didn't mention that you need to clamp
the spar to your table so that it is straight. If you have the spar
straight, and the distances between the ribs correct at the rear of
the wing, then you don't need to worry too much about the angle
between the rib and the spar.
Good luck and have fun
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
>
>Hello all,
> Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to
>need to check the drawings for every single step?
>do not archive
>
Doug Kandle
CH701
Boise ID
Rudder & Horiz. Stab. done Working on Wings
From complete kit
Message 17
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| Subject: | Inspection plates. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
BlankWell, I finally fired up my Hawg and as usual there was a problem. The dreaded
gas leak in the wing. Took me a while to find it, but somehow one of the
lines between the tanks had a cut in it. Which brings me to my point. PegaStol
wings have a total of 24 removable inspection plates. And if I had to do
it over there would have been more. Had this been Zac wing, I would have been
popping skin off.
Of course I leaked it before I closed it up, but somehow I missed it or a drill
bit caught it.
Inspection plates are cheap and easy to install. They have them at Aircraft Spruce
P/N 09-19300 at a whole $1.85 each. I would put one under each and every
place where there is a fitting and at least one between every rib.
Larry Martin, www.anglefire.com/un/ch701
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: I need help already! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry" <lrm01@centurytel.net>
The rudder section is by far the best instructions you will have in the
entire process. If you are having problems with the rudder then you need to
sit down and study how to read the drawings before you proceed with the rest
of it or you are going to have a lot of trouble. The secret is knowing how
to read the drawings. The drawings are sort of like a movie, you see things
the second, third time you didn't see the first. It is all there, but can
be very confusing at times. Just take it one step at a time. Measure three
times, cut once. I hope that made sense, if we can do it, so can you.
Larry, N1345L, www.angelfire.com/un/ch701
----- Original Message -----
From: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I need help already!
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: doug kandle <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
>
> I just started my 701 a couple of months ago. I found that you do
> have to double/triple check the drawings at every step. Not because
> I have found errors, but because I didn't see every detail. I
> finally decided to locate all the parts and, using a felt tip pen,
> mark where they are going to go. If possible I clamp all the parts
> roughly together or even tape them on. I then compare what I have
> pasted together with several pictures in the assembly
> instructions. It is easy to miss a left-right or up-down annotation
> on the drawings.
>
> I have been surprised by what details the instructions have chosen to
> explain and which they left out. Perhaps the instructions left off
> were so obvious to the writer that they should go without
> saying! For example, I am now working on the wings. When installing
> the rear channel, the instructions say that you should be sure that
> the ribs are perpendicular to the spar. I did that very carefully
> (clamping the spar & ribs to my table), but then found that the
> lengths needed for the channels (the distances between the rear of
> the ribs) were not right. The problem was that when just placed on
> edge, the wing spar is not perfectly straight (I guess the rivets
> sort of curve it a bit - I bought the complete kit so this is how ZAC
> builds them). The instructions didn't mention that you need to clamp
> the spar to your table so that it is straight. If you have the spar
> straight, and the distances between the ribs correct at the rear of
> the wing, then you don't need to worry too much about the angle
> between the rib and the spar.
>
> Good luck and have fun
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine
>><mgvalentine@gmail.com>
>>
>>Hello all,
>> Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to
>>need to check the drawings for every single step?
>>do not archive
>>
>
> Doug Kandle
> CH701
> Boise ID
> Rudder & Horiz. Stab. done Working on Wings
> From complete kit
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: I need help already! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Hi Michael,
Welcome to the club!
For starters, you must follow the prints (drawings). The
instructions are just a guide to help you along. Use the
instructions and the pictures to orient yourself and gain
understanding of what you are doing. Then study the prints and do
exactly what the prints indicate. The reason for this is the
instructions and prints are not necessarily prepared at the same
time. Usually the instructions are a lot older than the actual
drawings. So you need to follow the latest information which will be
found in the drawings.
Now for the fun. When you drill holes where they don't belong you
have several ways to recover. The best way is to replace the smaller
part with a new one which you make yourself. You can order
reasonably small quantities of sheet metal online and follow the
instructions in the builder's manual and drawings to prepare the part
as needed. This is just like scratch building, but you already have
a good sample part (the one you drilled wrongly) to compare your work
to. That makes it a lot easier, and you can keep trying until you
get it the way you want. Other ways to recover include adding
additional pieces of metal to sandwich your bad holes, and adding
extra rivets on either side of the bad holes. You can also fix
slightly egg shaped holes by changing to larger rivets.
My last piece of wisdom is to not get worried about the amount of
time and money you spend on each step of the plane. Use each
screw-up as a chance to improve your skills and gain new
experience. You will feel great when you overcome your own
mistakes. The extra cost of buying some metal and making some new
parts is not great. Probably the biggest expense will be the shipping.
Good luck, and have a lot of fun.
Paul
XL wings
do not archive
At 05:17 PM 10/10/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
>
>Hello all,
>
>So, I took the plunge. For those of you who responded to my questions
>a couple weeks ago - thanks. Now I am the proud owner of a tail kit -
>but things are already going wrong! Before I even drilled a hole, I
>felt compelled to call the factory to confirm some measurements I
>didn't understand, and now, barely another hour in, I have another
>problem.
>
>I followed the text of the rudder manual - p. 11 of 16 - to install
>Rear Rib #3 with the flange up. (BTW, my RR#3 - 6T4-8 has the flange
>going the opposite direction of the other folds in the rib as all the
>drawings show.) Now, when I go back to install the nose rib, I
>realize that something must be wrong because they are supposed to line
>up. The drawings actually show the RR#3 flange pointed down. Of
>course, my holes aren't perfectly spaced, so I can't just turn it
>around.
>
>Where did I go wrong? Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to
>need to check the drawings for every single step? Obviously it is a
>cheap and easy lesson to learn this early, but is a bit frustrating
>nonetheless!
>
>Thanks for any help you can provide.
>
>Cheers, Michael Valentine
>
>do not archive
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 20
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| Subject: | Questions regarding 601XL/Jabiru 3300 firewall fwd |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Davidson" <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
Mark,
I'm using the dual throttle setup so I haven't done this yet, but
the JabiruUSA Zenith CH601 Vernier Throttle Installation manual has a
picture on page 3 that show the cable going through the firewall just to the
copilot's side of the firewall center channel right at the top of the bungee
cord - straight aft of the carb. The note indicates that the hole is
drilled to size for "a rubber bushing", but it may be wise to upgrade that.
If you don't already have them, the FWF installation manuals are available
on the JabiruUSA web site on the Zenith CH601 FWF page.
Jeff Davidson
I'm installing a Jabiru 3300 on my 601XL. I have dual sticks and the single
vernier throttle cable. Where/how did you run your throttle and choke
cables? Did you run it through the center channel right next to the nose
gear? How did you keep them, especially the choke cable, from chafing the
bungee cord? If not there did you run it on the right side of the center
channel? If so did you put a slight bend in the brass ferrules so the cable
could clear the channel? Last question, what did you use for a grommet, a
simple rubber grommet with "dum-dum" or did you use the nice fireproof metal
grommets that I can't seem to find now in the AS&S catalog?
Message 21
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| Subject: | I need help already! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Michael
If I understand you correctly, I think I can explain. The rivet lines for
the RR#3 and the nose rib 6t4-8 are spaced 20mm apart on the spar (I assume
this is what you were referring to) that way your rivet line on the skin
will line up straight--since the RR spar flange is bent opposite to the
other two and the nose rib spar flange is bent in the same direction as its
other). Don't feel bad about not understanding. I didn't either until I
attended the workshop. Sound like you are doing it the hard way.
BTW I second the suggestion to go by the plans. If you can think about this
as a plans builder, like myself, would have to, I believe it will help-- You
just have less control (good or bad) over the quality of the parts in which
to work with. I build all my own parts--none of them are perfect. You have
to learn to make adjustments. The best advice I can give you is to remember
YOU are building this plane. Zenith Aircraft Company is not, they have just
supplied you with some of the parts that may or may not end up in your
finished project. (I'm still upset that I ruined my very first scratch built
part--an elevator rib--in a latter step and it had to be scraped. I wanted
to be able to point to the area where my first part resided in my finished
plane)I think most guys end up making a few of there own parts after making
a mistake--unless you want to pay horrendous shipping fees every time you
make a mistake. I think everyone should have at least one or two pieces in
their plane that they fabbed themselves.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
At 05:17 PM 10/10/2005, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine
<mgvalentine@gmail.com>
>
>Hello all,
>
>So, I took the plunge. For those of you who responded to my questions
>a couple weeks ago - thanks. Now I am the proud owner of a tail kit -
>but things are already going wrong! Before I even drilled a hole, I
>felt compelled to call the factory to confirm some measurements I
>didn't understand, and now, barely another hour in, I have another
>problem.
>
>I followed the text of the rudder manual - p. 11 of 16 - to install
>Rear Rib #3 with the flange up. (BTW, my RR#3 - 6T4-8 has the flange
>going the opposite direction of the other folds in the rib as all the
>drawings show.) Now, when I go back to install the nose rib, I
>realize that something must be wrong because they are supposed to line
>up. The drawings actually show the RR#3 flange pointed down. Of
>course, my holes aren't perfectly spaced, so I can't just turn it
>around.
>
>Where did I go wrong? Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to
>need to check the drawings for every single step? Obviously it is a
>cheap and easy lesson to learn this early, but is a bit frustrating
>nonetheless!
>
>Thanks for any help you can provide.
>
>Cheers, Michael Valentine
>
>do not archive
>
>
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 22
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| Subject: | I need help already! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
One other note of clarification. By my plans the Nose rib rivet line is at
station 610mm which would put the RR#3 at 590mm (measured from the bottom of
the spar), make sure you didn't swap the order.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Valentine
Subject: Zenith-List: I need help already!
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Valentine <mgvalentine@gmail.com>
Hello all,
So, I took the plunge. For those of you who responded to my questions
a couple weeks ago - thanks. Now I am the proud owner of a tail kit -
but things are already going wrong! Before I even drilled a hole, I
felt compelled to call the factory to confirm some measurements I
didn't understand, and now, barely another hour in, I have another
problem.
I followed the text of the rudder manual - p. 11 of 16 - to install
Rear Rib #3 with the flange up. (BTW, my RR#3 - 6T4-8 has the flange
going the opposite direction of the other folds in the rib as all the
drawings show.) Now, when I go back to install the nose rib, I
realize that something must be wrong because they are supposed to line
up. The drawings actually show the RR#3 flange pointed down. Of
course, my holes aren't perfectly spaced, so I can't just turn it
around.
Where did I go wrong? Is the manual misprinted? Am I really going to
need to check the drawings for every single step? Obviously it is a
cheap and easy lesson to learn this early, but is a bit frustrating
nonetheless!
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Cheers, Michael Valentine
do not archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Just to clear the air |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Hello All
The recent post by Michael V. (about needing help) got me thinking about the
way in which "we", veterans and newcomers, communicate on this list. I am
beginning to feel like a quasi-veteran, as I am almost two years into my
build. I have noticed there is no standard practice for submitting/replying
to a technical question.
Many new builders are not yet accustomed to the terminology necessary to
communicate and understand the more veteran builders. It is up to us
experienced/veteran builders to engage newcomers, by using clear, concise
descriptions and technique, when posting--questions or replies--to the list.
For example, many of us (especially when we are "green") submit questions
with terms like "up" or "down", without including from what direction we are
viewing the part; or say things like "the flange" instead of saying "spar
flange" etc. If we try to use the same sort of terminology as the plans, it
should help the newcomer to think about the problem, and thus communicate
it, in a manner that everyone can understand. Also when describing the
orientation of things like flanges it is very clear to say something like
"Spar flange is bent in the same/opposite direction as top and bottom
flanges" just as the plans do. Also, including phrases such as "out-board"
and "In-board", where appropriate, can be vital.
Michael's email also reminded me that some inexperienced (and forgive me for
saying) kit-builders think of the drawings as a supplement to the assembly
instructions and not the other way around. This is easy for a kit-builder to
do. After all he/she does not need to know the exact dimensions of this or
that part, right? Well anyone who has been doing this for as long as some of
us have know the answer to that. I'm not knocking ZAC. I love it that in
this day and age Zenith Aircraft Company still supports us lowly
plans-builders--when most other companies have abandoned us.
For me, it took a while before someone could say "Spar" and I would
immediately visualize the part. It is sometimes apparent, that it is a lack
of understanding of the terminology that is the source of the confusion,
behind a question, in the first place--though the asker may not realize it.
It is also probably a good Idea to try to make a reply clear enough that it
can stand alone in the archives.
My apologies to Michael V., for singling him out in front of the class (it
was not personal).
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
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